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Hirogen Hunter Sight needs to be reduced
majortiraomega
Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
The Hirogen Battle Armor provides the following stats:
In addition, the armor comes with an ability called Hunter Sight, which provides +500 Perception for 20 seconds with a 60 second cooldown. The cooldown starts on activation, which means it's effectively a 40 second cooldown. Under Tactical Initiative, it is possible to obtain a 120% uptime on the ability.
Armor granting +100.5 Maximum Hit Points, great overall protection against all attacks, and a boost to expose/exploit damage should not receive an ability capable of detecting cloak at any range 100% of the time. The Shattering Harmonics set is already capable of doing that, but it requires the full set and it makes the player significantly weaker.
Please Cryptic, tone down the perception bonus to +100. At the moment, it is far too high. NPCs don't have stealth rating over 550, the only use for +500 perception is in PvP.
- +5% Increased Exploit Damage
- +5% Expose Chance
- +2 second expose duration
- +55.9 Physical Damage Resistance Rating
- +55.9 Kinetic Damage Resistance Rating
- +55.9 All Energy Damage Resistance Rating
- +100.5 Maximum Hit Points
In addition, the armor comes with an ability called Hunter Sight, which provides +500 Perception for 20 seconds with a 60 second cooldown. The cooldown starts on activation, which means it's effectively a 40 second cooldown. Under Tactical Initiative, it is possible to obtain a 120% uptime on the ability.
Armor granting +100.5 Maximum Hit Points, great overall protection against all attacks, and a boost to expose/exploit damage should not receive an ability capable of detecting cloak at any range 100% of the time. The Shattering Harmonics set is already capable of doing that, but it requires the full set and it makes the player significantly weaker.
Please Cryptic, tone down the perception bonus to +100. At the moment, it is far too high. NPCs don't have stealth rating over 550, the only use for +500 perception is in PvP.
--->Ground PvP Concerns Directory 4.0
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Post edited by majortiraomega on
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I identify this as being the primary issue to resolve. Special abilities granted by gear should not be subject to cooldown reduction of this nature.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Yes the duration is one issue, but +500 perception allows the user to detect any stealthed player anywhere on the map. Even if they aren't on line of sight, it's easy enough to type /target <Player Name Here> into chat to get a direct lock in order to track down the person that is under stealth.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I am sorry to ask you major, but is the Armor one-color for all or does the uniform color adapt to your profession?
It appears to unlock a tailor option when purchased, similar to the Omega or Dyson Reputation systems.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Ah thanks for the Info
Kind of like what happened with EPtA back with LoR...where instead of providing the boost to Stealth Detection Rating which would then be used to calculate Perception it was treated as a boost to Perception and thus added a huge boost to SDR?
So, perhaps it should be giving +500...but not +500 where it is?
Just throwing that out there...while in orbit.
By default, all players have 510 perception. The highest stealth a player can get is via Stealth Module III + the Covert trait for 580~ stealth. +500 Perception bonuses are a total overkill, yet they were given to the Shattering Harmonics set. It's been considered tolerable because the Shattering set has minimal energy damage resistances and the entire set is needed to use the bonus, but the new Hirogen Armor doesn't suffer from any such penalties.
Edit: Basically this would be like making an armor console that also has a +5000 Stealth Detection Rating for 20 seconds ability with a 60 second cooldown.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Ambush III +249 Stealth (15s)
Stealth Module III +483.1 Stealth
Stacked: +732.1 Stealth
Covert Trait (732.1 * 0.2) +146.42
Total: 878.52 Stealth
It's annoying, because there's no "Stealth" stat listed anywhere like there is for Space. (Then again, while there's a SDR stat - it's empty - and there's no info on what Perception is...but I'm guessing folks either figured that out with testing or a dev posted about it at some point (kind of like we got the Space info out of Bort last March - heh).)
While both buffs show (and they stack for damage), it doesn't show if the Stealth stacks...meh.
Still, all the same, even the +500 for the Shattering sounds twisted if we're starting with a base of 510. Hrmmm...then there's things like Acute Senses giving +10, Limited Telepathy giving +10...
...and meh, I just realized that Special Forces (toon I'm looking at has 3) is buffing the Stealth for Ambush and Stealth Module. Which calls into question where the buff from Covert comes into play. Oh wait, I can select that - want to check the values without Special Forces first though.
Okay, so Ambush III is 245 and Stealth Module III is 475 without any skill. The Covert Trait takes those to 294 & 570 with no skill. Let me flip back to the other toon with 3 Special Forces....and I get 298.9 & 579.7 with 3 skill. Okay then, Covert is a final modifier then - it modifies the skill boosted amount and not just the base.
Meh, unfortunately - I can't check what the various levels of Special Forces does - don't have the means to respec and it's not like Space where I could slot skill consoles...meh.
Special Forces 3 (54) is doing the following...
Ambush III from 245 to 249
Stealth Module III from 475 to 483.1
...heh, does vonamicus have a Ground chart? Meh.
Still, it appears to be about 0.03% per skill (very roughly). So with Special Forces 9 (99), we could be looking at the following values...
Ambush III from 245 to 252.3
Stealth Module III from 475 to 489.1
Stacked, it would give us 741.4 - throw in Covert - 889.7 Stealth.
So we take that base 510 Perception you gave us, add in 10 from Acute and Limited Telepathy - gets us to 530...then add in 500 from Hunter Sight (or Harmonics), giving us 1030 Perception. 1030 - 889.7 = 140.3...
Hrmm, what's the scale on Ground? In Space, I'd divide that by 50 to get the value in km...
Is it a case that the Space 5000 Perception with 50 for a 1km (1000m) would mean for Ground that 500 Perception would still have a 50 but for 100m instead? So that 140.3 would be 2.806 * 100m or a detection range of 280.6m? Heh, that would be a heinous distance...as I target a NPC and see just how far 280.6m is from the target...meh, I can't because I lose targeting.
I'm guessing you wouldn't have created this thread if it weren't for the case of not losing targeting at those extreme ranges...
Hrmm, like I said with my first post - Ground just isn't my thing. That the only thing that stood out to Bort was TacInit affecting the uptime though...meh, I don't know. It would appear that he's saying the +500 is fine.
Then again, one of the reasons I gave up on Space PvP at the end of last year was just how borked things have become with Stealth Detection in Space (it's insane what you can do with just a Jem Mk XII Deflector and EPtA3)..so perhaps they've taken that same angle on Ground - TRIBBLE Stealthers, eh? Cause, well...that's how it kind of looks...eh?
Oh well, I'm heading back to orbit and the comfort zone of Space. Good luck with getting an answer from them on it...and if the answer is them giving Stealthers the finger, well good luck with getting enough people together to get them to do something a little more balanced....
Nope, Stealth values do not stack on the ground, only the highest value is applied. The only exception is the Portable Shroud Generator consumables, which adds +50 stealth to existing ratings for something like 10 seconds. It was intentionally removed in fall of 2012 due to stealth stacking to make oneself undetectable at all times.
http://starfleetprotectors.guildlaunch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9300290
That chart is correct for everything except armor bonus values. Willpower is also simple, though not listed on the chart. 1 skill point in willpower is +5 resistance out of 1000. Which means that 9 ranks in willpower (99 skill points) is 495 resistance out of 1000. Now you may notice that 495/1000 gives you a percentage of 49.5%, that is how you determine your control power resistances on the ground. Ground traits provide +X literally get tacked onto that X/1000 number to determine specific control resistances.
That is how it used to work, but stacking was removed. Perception stacking works, but stealth stacking does not. However, +stealth abilities have not stacked with each other in over a year. It created quite a few problems when it did stack, players could make themselves immune to detection by popping an extra stealth ability when they had a stealth debuff on them. Though much of that is no longer even remotely an issue, Cryptic recently changed the Omega Force set Distortion Field to break on taking any action...which effectively makes the ability useless. Their change was also a copy/paste across Mk X, XI, and XII...which means all versions of the set are now using the Mk X stats.
From past personal testing on the ground, it appears that +1 perception is about equal to 0.333333 (repeating) meters of detection range. +500 perception is effectively +166.667 meters of detection range. For traits like Acute Senses, it's +3.334 meters of detection.
There isn't a Ground PvP map bigger than 100 meters...other than perhaps Otha...if both players stand in opposite corners on the map.
On the Shattering Harmonics set, it is arguably "acceptable". Yes, you have a 20 second ability capable of detecting cloak anywhere on the map, but you also don't have a hit point modifier or significant energy damage resistance. It's a high risk/reward set, it's great for detecting stealthed players, but it runs a risk. The only problem is when players use the Shattering Harmonics set ability before immediately swapping out armor to remove the penalty. That's a bug though, the set ability doesn't disengage when they switch out pieces of the set. Some players also use the Shattering Harmonics set ability right before cloaking themselves, which is clearly not intended, as the ability itself is disabled from activation while cloaked.
Now the Hirogen armor, it has advantages stacked up on advantages. Even without the ability tacked on, the armor is worth getting. There is no PvE reason why it would need to be +500 perception, it's a purely PvP ability. It would be better at +100 perception, that would still provide +33.334 meters of perception, which would be more than adequate for Ground PvP.
At least Space PvPers are capable of escaping with their cloaked ships when detected by using a multitude of speed boost abilities and placates. Players stealthed on the ground have their movement speed decreased by about 50% and they are unable to sprint.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
says 121.5 when you're on a ground map.
As for the Perception Buff.. when using the "hunters sight" you lose the ability to sprint. All said operative would have to do is fallback.
+100 is too weak, and would be a joke. You are required to trade a 3 piece armour set bonus to use the armour, as most of the 3 piece set bonuses are very good, it needs to be a more substantial tradeoff if you want it reduced. +100 is pathetic. I do agree though that tac initiative should not reduce the cooldown of the hunter sight.
I still think the value is its fine as it is at 500 personally, you still have a 40 second window to attack them with stealth, whats your issue, you might not be able to walk round the whole game 1 shotting people? Worried that for 20 seconds of each minute, you will be on level terms with the rare people that will have one of these suits?
Stealth is merely one tool, your whole tactic shouldnt rely on it or that means stealth is as broken for pvp as you are saying the perception buff is. This thread should not be about preserving an 'iwin' button for someone. Stealth detection is most certainly not an 'iwin' button.
Cryptic, think carefully about this.
As well as this....
i agree i am a sci medic toon and cloak TRIBBLE is the only why i die, most of the time in ground pvp, i have no dps, take me on head on , tacsgot dps and stealth how much more advantage do tacs need ?????????????????????? should i go in pvps with out a kit and sheilds or armor to make tacs happy????
A general question who's answer I probably will not like: Why is there a such thing as hunter's sight?
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Gamma_Quadrant_Tribble
PvE, the tribble does the job nicely.
In PvP the tribble is still helpful, but the damage bonuses from ambush means it's the low hanging fruit that all tactical captains have a good reason to use. (The pre-nerf cryowave gun was almost sure one hit kill. Woe the poor fool that tried to say that was overpowered.)
So PvP had a bad situation where ambush was a common ability to (use/abuse). Now enter the "only" counter being something someone has to use, hunter's sight. There are now two things the system strongly encourages you to use over every other possible outcome.
I dislike nay saying a good ability to have, but why are there now two extremes instead of no extremes?
I posted the base stats, unmodified by Combat Armor. Yes, you will have 121.5 with 6 ranks in Combat Armor. Even if Tactical Initiative loses the ability to reduce the cooldown, you are still looking at a 33% uptime on an ability that can see stealth beyond the maximum size of a ground map.
+100 perception is +33.334 meters of stealth detection. It also stacks with other perception buffs. The Hirogen Armor has plenty of advantages to warrant use. It has +100 maximum hit points, bonus expose/exploit stats, and great overall resistances. Even without the extra ability, it's worth using. Ground PvP maps are all tiny and 20 seconds is an eternity, even +100 perception would be a massive advantage.
+100 perception is +33.334 meters of detection, I don't see how you can call that "pathetic". It's not "one of two ways" (this and shattering), there is also multiple AoE stuns, Tricorder Scan, AoE knockbacks. This armor didn't even exist yesterday; it is overpowered and I am bringing it up now while it is still new.
There are over two dozen methods capable of countering cloaked players and multiple stealth detection abilities. Shattering Harmonics is a perfect detection ability with a downside, the armor needed to use the set ability has very little energy damage resistance and no +health points bonus. Just like cloaking, Shattering Harmonics is a high risk/reward set, providing the player using it doesn't armor swap to exploit the Shattering bug (example). As I have said, the Hirogen Armor has no such disadvantages, it has advantages stacked upon advantages.
Out of all the classes/kit combinations in the game, Medics are the most suited for blocking cloak attacks. The easiest way to do this is to use the Nukara Strikeforce Elite Personal Shield Matrix Mk XII with Nanite Health Monitor on yourself. Triggering any heal (+Medical Vanguard) within 4 seconds prior to the Operative strike will give you 70-75% all shield damage resistance. The Tactical officer will be lucky if he manages to get your shields down at all. Medics may also sit in dampening field...among other things. I made a very long wall of text a while back on how to counter cloaked players with each class. If you'd like, I can track it down and post a link here.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
One thing to consider before knock on the armor stats too much though is the armor is very near to the elite fleet armor. If the hirogen armor stats have flaws is very likely so too does the fleet armor. Not happy about the unique damage bonuses, but that's just because plentiful as sand on a sea shore and stack up very fast.
Also, would that be a desired behavior?
The armor heal only works after damage is done. The vanguard only lasts 4 seconds.
That means means the attacker got their damage in and can't two shot someone or kill them faster then the it takes the server to inform the player they're hurt and process their response.
This is ridiculous.
You are talking about the shattered harmonics set, like its any good. The damage resistance is a joke on that suit, and so unfair to expect people to take the whole 3 piece, and miss out on better protection and better abilities, just to negate the cheese cloakers. AND, probably still die anyway. It helps you detect them, but even when you found them, a tac officer is still formidable. Its not like you detected them and they are suddenly defenceless. You are being unreasonable.
Not only that, you talk about people changing their setups to detect cloak rapers, like that's ok. Yeah ill just dump all my **** that makes me have any damage and fun, just so i can stop your cheese attack.
To name a few of the counters. There's also the use of the Nukara Elite Shield as I mentioned earlier. It's a [Cap]x2 [ResAll]x2 shield with a proc that adds +10% All Damage Resistance on taking damage.
The biggest difference between the Elite Fleet Armor and the Hirogen Armor is the Elite is a reactive one off heal with a 3 minute cooldown. The Hirogen Armor currently has a very powerful ability, almost double the hit point bonus over the elite armor, a bonus to exploit damage/expose chance, and only has a 40 second downtime.
Medical Vanguard gives immunity to bleedthrough and +50% All Shield Damage Resistance. When stacked on the Elite Nukara Shield, that's 70% All Energy Damage Resistance and 75% All Environmental Damage Resistance. In order to harm shields, the pulsewave attack needs to pass through the shields before striking health. A maximum buffed pulsewave strike is going to critically hit for 2,400 to 3,000 damage. However, coming from a pulsewave weapon, it suffers from extreme damage reduction at range. About 75% of a pulsewave's attack strength is lost at just 5 meters, which is why staying in motion is key when fighting operatives.
Let's assume the operative managed to take a shot from 1.5 meters, he's still getting about 20% damage reduction, yet he's striking an immobile target that is not crouched. Let's assume he got lucky and critically hit for the near max of 3,000. Yet he loses 600 damage while on route to the target, thus it's now 2,400 damage. If the target's dodge chance rolls a dodge, that attack is now 1,200, but let's presume that he didn't roll a dodge this time around. With the Nukara Elite Shield + Medical Vanguard, that attack will be reduced by 720.8. That leaves 1,679.2 damage to block with health. Assuming all you have active as a medic is Nanite Health Monitor and Triage, you are dead.
Another thing to note, in order to get 3,000 damage strikes, the Operative needs to use Target Optics. Target Optics may only be used outside of cloak, which means the player has 1 second to react before a strike hits, else the highest strike will be 2,100 damage on critical hit. However, these are looking at the extremes, the operative is quite obviously not going to critically hit every time he comes out of cloak. Nor are you going to fail to dodge every single Critical hit that he dishes out. When I do play Operative, that is the bread and butter of taking out targets, so many players do not know how to counter them.
Yet I myself very rarely get taken out by Operative players, why is that? It's not like they haven't tried. The thing is, there are five lines of defenses when fighting operatives, yet most players only use three of them. There is perception, dodge, motion, shields, and health. Perception is messing up operative strikes by using a confuse, placate, or both. Neural Neutralizer is one of the best operative counters in the game, it doesn't even require line of sight to use. The Shard of Possibilities, timed right, will make you completely immune to damage for 1 second...which may be used to block a pulsewave strike. Learn your enemy, it's not hard to learn an operative's movement and attack tendencies in order to time the Shard.
Next up, there's dodge and movement, they play similar roles. Running not only makes it hard for an Operative to hit a target, it also grants 75% dodge chance. Dodge is the foil to Critical hits; Dodge cuts an existing attack down by 50% before it even touches the player's shields or health. A player with 100% dodge chance will dodge all attacks. If you are alone and you know an operative is nearby, don't sit still, run. However, do not run in a predictable pattern, that is the number one mistake many players make when fighting operatives. Pulsewaves lose about 75% of their attack strength at 5 meters. A 3,000 damage Critical hit is reduced to 750 damage. If the target dodges, it's 375...which isn't going to get through shields.
Shields are important because they have high regeneration and many shield types provide bonus dodge chance, increased shield damage resistances, melee range stun procs, knockback on damage procs, and damage on damage procs. Any number of these can disrupt an operative's intended strike. The MACO Shield provides a team wide melee range stun effect. Which means if your teamate is using the MACO shield, takes damage, and procs it...you also get the proc...which will stun any operative within 3 meters. Engineers are also very reliant on shields, Reroute Power to Shields makes the engineer effectively immune to all but the maximum possible one hit kill strike for 15 seconds. An engineer running with Reroute Power to Shields...not a tempting target at all, they have at least an 85% dodge chance and a likely 60-75% All Shield Damage Resistance. There is less than 5% chance for the attack to succeed, especially if the engineer has good reflexes on the weapon malfunction. The same goes for a medic running with Medical Vanguard active.
Lastly, we have health, the final defense between an operative's pulsewave and unconsciousness. Most players have an average for 46-52% All Energy Damage Resistance, which will significantly reduce incoming attacks. This means that health can survive up to 973.82-1,013.84 energy damage strikes before failing. However, this is where medics come in, there is a doctor duty officer capable of extending maximum hit points by +49.5 with a maximum of 4 stacks, making the medic's maximum hit point around 865. That brings up the needed damage to down the player with 4 stacks to 1,262.9-1,314.8. This is one reason some medics spam Vascular Regenerator on themselves or allies; Vascular Regnerator has a chance to boost maximum hit points. The other reason is it will help the player with Vascular Regenerator survive incoming spike attacks, such as an Operative.
With closing, keep in mind that most Operatives aren't willing to get very close to their intended target for very long. There is a multitude of team wide close range effects that will disable the Operative. The average Operative in Ground PvP is going to be hitting for 1,600 on average, which is quite resistible. When a player goes up against a more skilled operative, they will need to worry about the ~3,000 critical hit upper ceiling, but even that will be cut to 1,500 if the player rolls a dodge. For the majority of players though, use the five areas outlined above, and you shouldn't have trouble with most operatives anymore.
I'll call that bet, how much did you wager? I play medic more than any other class, though I do know how to use Operative. Interestingly enough though, I don't use Operative + Pulsewave very often even when I do. Only against select premades that I know don't know how to counter it.
All Engineers are capable of safe use of the Shattering Harmonics set due to their inherrent reliance on shield healing. Physicians and Medics are also capable of using the set without a problem do to self energy damage buffs. Squad Leader and Security Protocols are also capable of making up for the set's lack of energy damage resistance via their buffs. An Operative on the ground relies on his stealth to stay alive. A detected Operative is a dead Operative due to the innumerable debuffs at the disposal of uncloaked players. Operative is not cheese, it is a high risk/reward playstyle. The Hirogen armor is quite powerful, even without the built in ability. You aren't even a Ground PvPer, why do you act as if it will affect you?
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I mean, seriously, there was a guy that while complaining about cloaked players also stated that is the only way he dies. Did that not strike him as...off? That's the only way he dies? So he wants to get rid of that?
...so even as a person that has not done Ground PvP in almost two years (couple weeks and it will have been two years) and a guy that has complained about having to put 66k SP into Ground Skills, that doesn't have a single Ground DOFF equipped, usually runs around with guys sporting Mk IV-VII ground gear...you get the picture...
Well, the lack of balance in attitudes stands out like a sore thumb. There's the guy talking about the overall stats, a buff that would still provide what sounds like more than a reasonable detection range, and just something that oozes the rational sound of trying to balance stuff...
...and then there's oceans of tears.
So as an outsider to Ground (just somebody that enjoys knowledge of the game in general - and - trying to make sure folks have said information)...well, it's very difficult not to write some of the folks off in this thread as the typical butthurt folks that rage endlessly on the forums about the latest thing that killed them and bruised their fragile egos.
Just saying...
Why not work toward actual balance...accepting that somebody has to die?
this 100% the poster is just mad cause he is a known cloaker in pvp. he even cryed when we got cloak hunter set
"Join Date December 2013", hmm, interesting. You weren't even here when that set came out :rolleyes:. If you truly played Ground PvP at all, which I know you don't, you'd know that I play Science far more than I play Tactical. You'd also know that I know what I'm talking about. I'm one of the few medics on ground that can survive two cloaked players attempting to kill my character at the same time. I still die like anyone who plays ground, it's part of ground combat, but if I can take on two of them and live...there is absolutely no reason anyone should be complaining about one cloaked player.
It takes skill to kill someone with cloak (broken duty officers aside) and it takes skill to counter cloak. Tactical officers are actually the weakest class right now, the last thing they need is another counter. Hirogen Armor detection with no drawbacks completely removes the skill portion required to counter cloaked players. It dumbs down the ground combat mechanics further for the casual players, which is not desirable.
Cryptic is destroying their own mechanics in order to make the game easier for newbies, it's why I don't do space PvP much anymore. Now they are moving on to ground and I am going to try to help keep it straight before it reaches nonredeemable levels like Space. Space has become a straight heal/damage festival because they are slowly stripping out the mechanics and adding more and more counters to them. I love ground, I'm not going to sit back quietly while they do to ground what they already did to space.
Sure, the players that hate countering cloak are rejoicing, but what happens when they pull the next mechanic? The next thing you know, Cryptic will be adding a duty officer/trait that adds an immunity to expose when buff XYZ is active on the player. They already did immunity to flank, yet few complained about that one because operatives are most reliant on flank damage. Immunity to expose would hurt Science officers the most, as they rely on the expose/exploit mechanic to deal damage when on a healer kit.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Stealth Module Nerf #1: Operative "scum" looses X shields while using stealth module III
Stealth Module Nerf #2: While using Stealth Module III, you lose X% stealth when mobile (moving)
Stealth Module Nerf #3: You're stealth module has X% chance of overloading, killing the user and doing X% dmg to anything within 0-6 meters.
The Hirogen piece gives us a chance to detect the cloaking swine without having to rely on the paper bag set. (;)) Give it a chance and you might enjoy it.
The visual tailor unlock is certiantly worth it.
You already know that Operatives suffer a severe movement penalty while stealthed and you also know that if Operatives weren't shielded, they would be insanely easy to one hit kill from long range with the Physicist kit. Loss of stealth while moving sounds reasonable, but only if all players also lose perception while in motion. The last "suggestion" is just plain trolling.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)