[...]A maximum buffed pulsewave strike is going to critically hit for 2,400 to 3,000 damage.[...]
I'm going to claim two flaws with that case:
1)Your stealth, you have every right and opportunity to watch and pick when to fight a target. Complaining you picked the moment when your target is at it's strongest to attack isn't very helpful.
2)My primary case against the cryowave back in the day was it was a AoE that could attack out of stealth, had no charge up time, and a massively smaller cool down then orbital strike. Which by the way, I recall criting less then five times for 2,000 in two years of playing. [edit]I believe all those time also involved a resistance debuff. I'm doing spectacular to do 1,000 damage in one OS.[/edit]
What your telling me now is that the armor/ambush now set up a situation that is the exact same reason the cryowave now does a special smaller damage range in PvP.
1)Your stealth, you have every right and opportunity to watch and pick when to fight a target. Complaining you picked the moment when your target is at it's strongest to attack isn't very helpful.
I was giving a 1v1 scenario with a stealthed player vs a non-stealthed player. Your proposed scenario would require a 2v1, where the odds would be stacked against the lone player anyway...teamwork is and always will be overpowered.
2)My primary case against the cryowave back in the day was it was a AoE that could attack out of stealth, had no charge up time, and a massively smaller cool down then orbital strike. Which by the way, I recall criting less then five times for 2,000 in two years of playing. [edit]I believe all those time also involved a resistance debuff. I'm doing spectacular to do 1,000 damage in one OS.[/edit]
What your telling me now is that the armor/ambush now set up a situation that is the exact same reason the cryowave now does a special smaller damage range in PvP.
The problem with the Cryo Pulsewave was the fact that it ignored conventional damage resistances. It is now in line with the rest of the pulsewave assault weapons within the game. You think Operative strikes are bad? Try taking a look at a full Croniton Mine Barrier, that thing can deal well over 3,600 damage and it can be used every 22 seconds. Whereas the operative strike may only be performed once every 60 seconds, every 80 if they plan to go for the full strike. Orbital Strike is also capable of hitting for 3,000 damage, just use Equipment Diagnostic duty officers, power cells, and wait for Strike Team II.
Heh, from some of the posts that came later - it does read like the pathetic butthurt that screwed up Space...
I mean, seriously, there was a guy that while complaining about cloaked players also stated that is the only way he dies. Did that not strike him as...off? That's the only way he dies? So he wants to get rid of that?
...so even as a person that has not done Ground PvP in almost two years (couple weeks and it will have been two years) and a guy that has complained about having to put 66k SP into Ground Skills, that doesn't have a single Ground DOFF equipped, usually runs around with guys sporting Mk IV-VII ground gear...you get the picture...
Well, the lack of balance in attitudes stands out like a sore thumb. There's the guy talking about the overall stats, a buff that would still provide what sounds like more than a reasonable detection range, and just something that oozes the rational sound of trying to balance stuff...
...and then there's oceans of tears.
So as an outsider to Ground (just somebody that enjoys knowledge of the game in general - and - trying to make sure folks have said information)...well, it's very difficult not to write some of the folks off in this thread as the typical butthurt folks that rage endlessly on the forums about the latest thing that killed them and bruised their fragile egos.
Just saying...
Why not work toward actual balance...accepting that somebody has to die?
I agree.
As for the armor, yeah why put in a few balanced detection methods to currently existing kits/skills when you can just ramhammer the entire dynamic and come close to annihilating a gameplay niche by giving a humongous number like +500?
Oh yeah, it sells lockboxes. Got it.
I'm upset, and I don't even play ground. (Meaning I want to see balanced additions to gameplay that add nuance and not giant bombs dropped on playstyle niches whatever those niches are.)
You already know that Operatives suffer a severe movement penalty while stealthed and you also know that if Operatives weren't shielded, they would be insanely easy to one hit kill from long range with the Physicist kit. Loss of stealth while moving sounds reasonable, but only if all players also lose perception while in motion. The last "suggestion" is just plain trolling.
The hirogen armor also suffers from the exact same effect, while using "Hunter Sight" I can't sprint, if you see me using said ability.. all you need to do is fall back... unless you're in an open area, I won't be able to catch up to you.
I was giving a 1v1 scenario with a stealthed player vs a non-stealthed player. Your proposed scenario would require a 2v1, where the odds would be stacked against the lone player anyway...teamwork is and always will be overpowered.
Well, I was thinking of cool down timers, but ok.
See also: "Your stealth, you have every right and opportunity to watch and pick when to fight a target. Complaining you picked the moment when your target is at it's strongest to attack isn't very helpful."
The problem with the Cryo Pulsewave was the fact that it ignored conventional damage resistances.[...]
The lack of cold resistance is what help it up to the massive damages. (That actually should have been the patch, I think.)
What got it nerfed wasn't how it did massive damage, it was that it did damage enough to one hit someone.
[...]Try taking a look at a full Croniton Mine Barrier, that thing can deal well over 3,600 damage and it can be used every 22 seconds.[...]
I did try that. Routinely. That isn't easy to use. (24 second cool down + 2-3second arm time, iirc.)
Aside from having a visible animation flagging it's position, in plain sight (When someone is not exploiting LoS bugs), being not mobile, and a delay before it arms?
...you want me to compare that to ambush?
[...]Orbital Strike is also capable of hitting for 3,000 damage, just use Equipment Diagnostic duty officers, power cells, and wait for Strike Team II.
Correction:
1) I have to wait for a 30% chance (that just recently applied to OS) to happen once every 90 seconds.
2) To actually hit in PvP? I have to wait for the perfect storm. I have to wait and pray everytime my target is so occupied or disabled to do something about the big shiny circle waiting ~5seconds to actually hit them. Oh, and I'm rooted and disabled while I wait that 5 seconds.
Before you argue, yes I can root them? Yes, I can root them (if they're kind enough to have run out of hyposprays). There is also the issue that's a argument that power only works when I have certain kits readied.
The energy cells are not too hard to manage. Strike Team is also another "perfect storm" condition a engineer can not count on.
See also: "Your stealth, you have every right and opportunity to watch and pick when to fight a target. Complaining you picked the moment when your target is at it's strongest to attack isn't very helpful."
In a 1v1, the non-stealthed player would be under no pressure to burn said cooldowns.
The lack of cold resistance is what help it up to the massive damages. (That actually should have been the patch, I think.)
What got it nerfed wasn't how it did massive damage, it was that it did damage enough to one hit someone.
It got nerfed because it was dealing unresistable damage to players, there was nothing more to it, no hidden reason. The same treatment was later applied to the Nukara Elite Cryo Auto Rifle, which has never been capable of one hit killing a player.
Aside from having a visible animation flagging it's position, in plain sight (When someone is not exploiting LoS bugs), being not mobile, and a delay before it arms?
...you want me to compare that to ambush?
The Operative strike is the combination of 6 different abilities. Chroniton Mine Barrier is one ability capable of dealing far more damage than a fully buffed pulsewave assault. Holding target? Really, honestly? It's not like there aren't a multitude of methods capable of holding a target for two seconds. The cooldown is so short, which means you can just spam them anyway.
1) I have to wait for a 30% chance (that just recently applied to OS) to happen once every 90 seconds.
You can stack 3 of the duty officer to ensure at least of them procs. It has always worked for Orbital Strike, yet until recently it didn't work for the traited version, Orbital Devastation
2) To actually hit in PvP? I have to wait for the perfect storm. I have to wait and pray everytime my target is so occupied or disabled to do something about the big shiny circle waiting ~5seconds to actually hit them. Oh, and I'm rooted and disabled while I wait that 5 seconds.
You'd be surprised how many openings there are with roots, stuns, and knockbacks to use Orbital Strike to full effect.
Before you argue, yes I can root them? Yes, I can root them (if they're kind enough to have run out of hyposprays). There is also the issue that's a argument that power only works when I have certain kits readied.
There is a 22-30 second cooldown on hypos. If they use it to clear the root, they are more vulnerable to death anyway, even if the orbital misses.
The energy cells are not too hard to manage. Strike Team is also another "perfect storm" condition a engineer can not count on.
Strike Team has a 100% uptime if there are two tactical officers on the team, it's a perk of Tactical Initiative, something Ground combat has been balanced around for a long time.
majortiraomega - please just stop and think for a second. You aren't being rational and thinking about what we are saying. You had a knee jerk reaction on the release of the armour. I mean, you didn't even know its full details. I'm not trolling i'm trying to be serious.
We are listening to what you are saying but some of it is very weak. You are talking about hitting people with very obvious attacks, that are clearly signposted with animations and markers only a simpleton would get hit by them, unless he was being team focused and rooted etc.
Earlier you mentioned using the nukara melee set that has an armour piece that gives 6 energy resistance. That is lol. Seriously lol that you would even consider that an option. There are other people to fight besides cloakers you know.
We are talking about 20 second perfect stealth detection every 80 seconds, that sacrifices a 3 set armour bonus. So it basically replaces a 3 set armour bonus essentially. However it does nothing for combat effectiveness overall, it only affects cloakers. In a stand up fight, its a 3 set bonus that does nothing to help damage or damage reduction. Thats a trade off in itself.
As i said earlier, the cooldown does not reset until the buff has been terminated. I agree, tac initiative should not reduce it further, and this is all that needs fixing in my opinion.
Be realistic here, you are just a bit jaded because your near perfect noob killing stealth tacs might take a hit now and you might lose an 'iwin' button. Be reasonable, you are talking about balance, when this armour itself is balanced apart from the tac initiative reduction.
You just dont like it because the balance affects your playstyle that until now has been OP.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
Wait am I to assume from this thread there are actually people that ground pvp in this game?? If that's the case maybe you could let me know for pve ground stuff what would be a general all purpose set for my many many toons - of all classes. So far I have been getting by OK with just straight exchange gear.
majortiraomega - please just stop and think for a second. You aren't being rational and thinking about what we are saying. You had a knee jerk reaction on the release of the armour. I mean, you didn't even know its full details. I'm not trolling i'm trying to be serious.
I posted the full tooltip stats in the original posting. There was no mention of the sprint disable in said tooltip.
We are listening to what you are saying but some of it is very weak. You are talking about hitting people with very obvious attacks, that are clearly signposted with animations and markers only a simpleton would get hit by them, unless he was being team focused and rooted etc.
All attacks have counters, players are capable of dodging operative strikes just as well as they are capable of dodging engineer orbital strikes and mines. Yet Engineers still land kills, they still deal 5 times the damage/second over tactical officers consistently in PvP right now.
Earlier you mentioned using the nukara melee set that has an armour piece that gives 6 energy resistance. That is lol. Seriously lol that you would even consider that an option. There are other people to fight besides cloakers you know.
As I also mentioned, it's possible to eliminate the drawbacks of the set with certain kit options. All Engineers rely on shield tanking to stay alive, thus limiting the need for health resistance. They also have numerous health damage resistance buffs. Science officers are capable of using the Shattering Harmonics set with minimal risk while using the Medic or Physcician kits. Tactical officers are capable of using the set while using the Security Protocols or Squad Leader kits.
We are talking about 20 second perfect stealth detection every 80 seconds, that sacrifices a 3 set armour bonus. So it basically replaces a 3 set armour bonus essentially. However it does nothing for combat effectiveness overall, it only affects cloakers. In a stand up fight, its a 3 set bonus that does nothing to help damage or damage reduction. Thats a trade off in itself.
20 seconds in Ground combat is an eternity when it's possible to kill a player in three seconds or less.
As i said earlier, the cooldown does not reset until the buff has been terminated. I agree, tac initiative should not reduce it further, and this is all that needs fixing in my opinion.
Be realistic here, you are just a bit jaded because your near perfect noob killing stealth tacs might take a hit now and you might lose an 'iwin' button. Be reasonable, you are talking about balance, when this armour itself is balanced apart from the tac initiative reduction.
This is a real balance concern that goes beyond mere cooldowns. All players have 510 perception by default. This gives them a perception range for 170 meters. The detection of stealthed players is taken into account by this formula:
A perception buff of +500 brings a player's perception to 1010. The most stealth an operative player is capable of getting through heavy investment into traits and skill points is 587.76 stealth. A single armor ability with no skill point or trait investment should not be capable of detecting a stealthed player at any range without some form of significant downside. Disabling sprint isn't significant, there's Frosted Boots and Motion Accelerator to get around that "downside". It is bad mechanic design and sets a bad precedent for the future.
If anything, I'd rather see Cryptic enhance the perception bonus obtained via skill point investment for Target Optics and Tricorder Scan. Hunter Sight should be capable of significantly enhancing player perception, but it shouldn't be capable of detecting a stealthed player anywhere on the map, there just isn't the investment for such a thing. 33.334%, 25% uptime, it makes little difference. +100 perception would be a substantial improvement worth taking on the set. If you feel that isn't worthwhile enough, remove the Sprint Disabled and tack on a bit of extra exploit damage or a critical hit/damage bonus.
Shattering Harmonics I'd personally like to see toned back to +250 perception. As for the armor, an extra +25 All Energy Damage Resistance Rating to all environmental suits would server them well. It would open their use up on additional kit combinations and it would greatly improve the set as a whole. The shield and weapon on all suits is fantastic, it's just the armor that is underperforming in the form of energy damage resistances.
Ground needs to avoid extremes, else it risks the same pitfall that has harmed space quite severely. This involves getting to gear while it is still new, else Cryptic is reluctant to do anything about the item.
Wait am I to assume from this thread there are actually people that ground pvp in this game?? If that's the case maybe you could let me know for pve ground stuff what would be a general all purpose set for my many many toons - of all classes. So far I have been getting by OK with just straight exchange gear.
Grab a full Omega Force Ground set from the Omega Reputation system, toss on any fleet pulsewave with [CritX], and have a Romulan Plasma Split Beam Rifle Mk XII [CritX]x2 in order to swap out the pulsewave for long range fights. Tactical Officers use Fire Team/Operative/Squad Leader, Engineers use Enemy Neutralization/Equipment Technician/Fabrication Specialist, and Science officers use Physicist/Analyst/Medic. Throw a gambling device, large hypos, the shard of possibilities, and frosted boots into device slots and you are good to go.
In a 1v1, the non-stealthed player would be under no pressure to burn said cooldowns.
Ok, true... Your missing my point here ...
... with stealth you can afford to wait! Even if ambush's +100% damage bonuses becomes a -200% damage penalty, you're missing the point here. Under stealth you hold all the cards. (barring the Hirogen armor.)
You do not have to attack until you have the advantage. If the timer runs out you can just hide behind something, wait for it to cooldown, re-stealth and try again. You can stealth right in front of someone, they know your their, and there's very little they can do about it!
...
Would it be fair to say if "ambush" had zero stealth,but still had it's +100% damage you'd still use it?
Edit: Even if your time runs out before you have the advantage, you've still popped out of nowhere on them. Your in the same fight you were when you triggered stealth. Only even if they heard you unstealth they still have to actually find and target you. You've still ambushed them in the real sense of the word.
It got nerfed because it was dealing unresistable damage to players, there was nothing more to it, no hidden reason. The same treatment was later applied to the Nukara Elite Cryo Auto Rifle, which has never been capable of one hit killing a player.
I'd argue all cold damage along side was hit preemptively, but ok.
The Operative strike is the combination of 6 different abilities. Chroniton Mine Barrier is one ability capable of dealing far more damage than a fully buffed pulsewave assault. Holding target? Really, honestly? It's not like there aren't a multitude of methods capable of holding a target for two seconds. The cooldown is so short, which means you can just spam them anyway.
Well master, by all means I'll have to setup a match and let you show me how sometime next week. :P
The damage maybe on the high side, but I'll still fight you over it.
Holding the target, yes.
The mines come with bells on them when summoned, and bright shiny lights when idle! The only way to miss them is if your not watching or they're just around a corner. Avoiding them is as simple as watching for them and not stepping on them. (I did point out how stealth gives you time, right?) Avoiding a ambush is as simple as ...
...
...Not being ambushed?
You can stack 3 of the duty officer to ensure at least of them procs. It has always worked for Orbital Strike, yet until recently it didn't work for the traited version, Orbital Devastation
Ok, I don't like stacking officers, but that's a point.
Still leave the problem of it's another attack with bright lights and bells announcing it. It's very easy to dodge when you see it coming, and OS announces it's presents grandly!
You'd be surprised how many openings there are with roots, stuns, and knockbacks to use Orbital Strike to full effect. There is a 22-30 second cooldown on hypos. If they use it to clear the root, they are more vulnerable to death anyway, even if the orbital misses.
Not surprised so much, you have to get luck or creative to score a hit. I've shamelessly copied more then a few tricks to get orbital strike to hit. Which was sort of the point, it needs a lot of creative help to hit. Otherwise it's a total miss.
Ambush needs creative help to do 3K+. But it doesn't miss (as long as you can aim) :P
Also, I'd trade a 90second cooldown to not be severally hurt and burn someone else's 2min+ cooldown.
Strike Team has a 100% uptime if there are two tactical officers on the team, it's a perk of Tactical Initiative, something Ground combat has been balanced around for a long time.
That's cool and all, but ...
...That's a "perfect storm" condition. If your talking about orbital strike, your telling me I need abilities no engineer can have to use a ability only a engineer can have.
I identify this as being the primary issue to resolve. Special abilities granted by gear should not be subject to cooldown reduction of this nature.
This is the key issue i feel, and anything else is just people trying to preserve their one shot 'Iwin' button for premade/noob hunting fun so they can feel special.
In my eyes, detecting stealth perfectly, for 20 seconds every 80 seconds, is nothing to get excited about. Its not like if you are suddenly detected, the tac officer is defenceless, far from it. Nor has any mention been made of some of the powerfull ground doffs that can further enhance stealth attacks.
The only arguments i have heard to support the nerf of this suit and provide an alternative, is basically that you should have to completely gimp yourself just in order to be able to combat cheese cloakers. While this then largely will reduce your effectiveness against any other class and setup of player. Not a balanced solution.
THIS suit is the balance needed for cloakers, and this argument needs to stop. Its not even like that many people will have them either unfortunately. I am sure Cryptic will make the right decision, tac initiative should not reduce the cooldown and that's all that needs to be changed. I'm just going to stop commenting now, i feel i have said all i can on the matter, and so have the other contributors really.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
In my eyes, detecting stealth perfectly, for 20 seconds every 80 seconds, is nothing to get excited about.
It's an extreme. I can't speak for anybody else, but the vast majority of my nonsensical (is VD having a seizure, he's going to get banned, etc) rants over the years have been about yo-yo mechanics and extremes. I loathe them.
Yo-yo systems are something to get excited about - to rant about - to wag a finger at the screen while cursing Cryptic about.
There shouldn't be any perfects, imho - everything should be a dance of near-perfects, and tada - skill comes into play. Otherwise it's just a case of quick games of paper-scissors-rock with the roll of the dice while fingers are crossed...it's not fun.
Cloakers weren't overpowered since cryo launcher nerf. Detection of those is easy even without Shattering Harmonics. (You can hear how they charge buffs, batteries, footsteps, see ambush field, footsteps when on sand or ground) Sci's have Tricoder Scan personal ability which detects them easy.
Shattering Harmonics may seem op, but it is not. Even if using its bug you still wasting secondary weapon slot.
As Tira says, Hirogen armour has no any downs. Teh argument that you cant sprint while using its ability is meaningless. Carrier of this armor doesn't have to sprint to the detected target. All he has to do is use its ranged debuffs (Fire, on my Mark, Phisicist, Enemy Neutralisation kits, Orbital Strike) and reveal them to their team (like tricoder scan, so your team can see them too). Carrier of this armour is protected from ranged damage as well.
Also note, that this armour shall be used by a premades in first place. Cloaking can be a last ditch afford in those cases (like in Arena), but it is nullified now.
It is incorrect how a single P2W item can nullify whole strategy. I don't cloak myself as I prefer Fire Team, but cloaker detection is on its own funny and challenging thing.
My personal opinion. I think this armour was made because of lots of QQ from incompetent nibcakes which complain about fixed long time ago decloak + cryo launcher one shot strategy. Since it was fixed this armour ought to be just one more shinny from lobi store with some unique visuals.
Thanks
__________________
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
It's an extreme. I can't speak for anybody else, but the vast majority of my nonsensical (is VD having a seizure, he's going to get banned, etc) rants over the years have been about yo-yo mechanics and extremes. I loathe them.
Yo-yo systems are something to get excited about - to rant about - to wag a finger at the screen while cursing Cryptic about.
There shouldn't be any perfects, imho - everything should be a dance of near-perfects, and tada - skill comes into play. Otherwise it's just a case of quick games of paper-scissors-rock with the roll of the dice while fingers are crossed...it's not fun.
I said i wasn't going to comment again but just this last parting one. Lol.
Mate you cant just label everything, every topic has its own context. This is not an 'extreme'. Its not a way to kill someone, Debuff someone, disable someone. Its merely a way of briefly countering a cheese method. The only 'extreme' in this scenario, is the cloaked tac operative with all his cds popped, ambush, ambush doffs overflowing, and a nice pulsewave locked and loaded.
All this suit does is let you see where he is. It doesn't help you kill him, or reduce his weapon and buff effects, or his armour and set bonuses, or anything else. Just see him dripping in cheese behind you ready to press 'Iwin'. Thats where your skill can come in, when the fight starts.
But what some people are suggesting on this thread is most certainly an extreme. Offering alternatives to the Hirogen suit that basically revolve around you setting up your whole build to counter what could be 1 player out of 5 on the team. or even no players out of 5. Then what? You are extremely ****ed is what.
Any power that requires you to build almost entirely around countering it, at detriment to your own damage or buffs, THAT IS AN EXTREME.
In this context, seeing someone for 20 seconds out of every 80 isn't an 'extreme'. Its a balance. Just puts him in the same position as all the non cloakers on his team for 20 seconds. I don't see why its such a heartbreaker, especially as a lot of people wont even have spare lobi to buy one.
As i said its a knee jerk reaction to someone losing a small part of their pvp ego.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
It's not a case of arguing that the other end of the spectrum is not an extreme as well...it's a case of arguing against all such extremes.
There shouldn't be perfect stealth nor perfect stealth detection. Where extreme would come into play, would be in the extreme effort needed to reach near perfect - which couldn't actually ever be reached.
A decent example would be diminishing returns on damage resistance in space. "75%" is all but impossible to reach (outside of special gimmicks, meh).
I used to run a dedicated Snooper in Space. I had to work at the build - it needed a bunch of things to be able to do that particular dance with the Sneaker. Even there, in the end I had the advantage (at a cost) because I could Snoop more than he could Sneak. It created a role. Then through a combination of buffs and nerfs to various things, there simply was no need for that role. Stealth Detection is so insanely easy...there's no longer the need for all the consoles, being in a particular ship, running high aux, being a Sci, taking certain traits, doing this, doing that...it's just not needed - you can get more than enough Perception from a couple of things to deal with the nerfed Stealth.
So it's a case of arguing for balanced returns on investments, diminished returns on investments, and all those awesome dances...
...not the eyes closed, pinkytoe on the spacebar, and fingers crossed as the dice are rolled nonsense that exists - and - the kind of nonsense that more and more folks are pushing for every day.
edit: And the 20 of 80s thing...it's team game, eh? Just saying...
Yes the duration is one issue, but +500 perception allows the user to detect any stealthed player anywhere on the map. Even if they aren't on line of sight, it's easy enough to type /target <Player Name Here> into chat to get a direct lock in order to track down the person that is under stealth.
Question (that's not a prelude to some plan, for once.):
Is the detect people across the map thing part of the plan?
-OR-
Was the +500 perception to just make sure no one could hide under a cloak?
Edit: I ask because if it's the second, and the first is a problem? Could 'Hunter's Sight' just be a huge AoE that explicitly removes stealth or weakens stealth skills to the point of uselessness?
I recall a thread of this nature by the OP about shattering harmonics too. There are still cloakers and there still will be. Clearly cryptic sees no issue with it aside of the cool down reduction.
I could agree with virus that the extremes go both ways. Why should some cloaker be able to march up to 0m on a distracted player and just gank them and trololol away after? They shouldn't but since they can why shouldn't there be a way to know it's coming sometimes? The perception you can build up in space can make cloaking pointless for an entire match and the cloaked ships don't have shields. Ground cloakers pay for it with run speed loss but um *cough frosted boots cough*.
If there's to be finger wagging about this armor's ability to counter stealth then their should be the same about how close a cloaked player can get without being detected. Just because the OP seems to have trouble getting that kill from a de-cloak ambush doesn't mean others are having trouble.
Sometimes tira I think you spend so much time worrying about numbers and trying to invent perfect situations as theoretical examples of how something is OP that you don't even try to adapt to changes.
I just don't see the problem with this armor. High HP pool but reduced resistances, loss of a set bonus to use it, the same run speed debuff stealth players have while cloaked. If we are to accept that stealth is what it is and is balanced in the eyes of cryptic then having hard counters to it are also balanced.
Now, if equipping that armor had given the wearer innate stealth sight of this magnitude I could agree that would be a problem but it doesn't. It's a click power with a cooldown. Cloaker wants to gank they better watch for if it's up before trying.
So like I mentioned earlier - Ground PvP...my knowledge? Less than nada - well, more than nada now thanks to some of the replies. So the stacking (outside of the Port-a-Potty) ended back in late 2012. Throw in some other searches, reading some other threads that I skipped - didn't play it, didn't care - over the years...and...okay then, let me see if I've got this straight now then, eh?
Base Ground Perception: 500
Then there are various Traits that provide +10 to +20, but it appears the most you can get from this is +20 (the +20 appearing to be a combination of the two +10 Traits that can't be taken by toons with a +20)...right?
So you'd be looking at up to 520 from Base + Traits, right so far?
Can't find the exact number, so this is an approximation off a calc FES has...but it appears that for each positive 10 difference between Perception and Stealth there is a ~3.28m or so viewable difference.
So if we flip over to the Stealth side for a moment...
Base Stealth Module III Stealth: 475
So bPerception vs. bSM3...it's a viewable distance of ~7.6m.
+10 Perception; 10.7m
+20 Perception; 13.7m
Weapon Range is 30m (going to assume there's dropoff like there is for Space, so closer is better).
My apologies for this being back and forth, somewhat scattered - it's a learning process. (I wasn't kidding when I said I knew next to nothing about Ground. I did Ground PvP once - almost two years ago. I've never done a Ground STF, never done Defera nor Nukara, and Hell, only been to the new BZ once. Ground's not my thing. So why am I babbling away in this thread? I hate extremes!)
So, Tricorder Scan III provides +25 to +49.75/50 Perception...depending on points in Scientist. +1% for each point (not rank, but point - 3 ranks is 54 points). It also provides a Stealth Debuff, but you have to actually target the person for that, no?
Okay, though, say we're at 570 Perception vs. 475 Stealth then - we're at 28.9m - seeing them shortly after they've moved into Weapon Range (if we're lucky that we drop TricScan at that point, eh?)...
But it's not like they can't buff their Stealth. 9(99) in Special Forces should take that SM3 to ~489.1 Stealth.
vs. +20 Perception: 9.4m
vs. ^-- & 99 TricScan: 24.6m
Covert would give them +20%, taking the ~489.1 to ~586.9 Stealth. Which creates a negative difference, and that 0m viewable distance...right?
I read something, though, about you need 610 for "Perfect" Cloak - as not to be seen at 0m. Is that still valid? Am I off somewhere in my calculations so far? Can the Portable Shroud Generator (+475 fragile Stealth) still stack with the 586.9 so far? Does the Covert +20% boost that as well (or either if it does not stack)?
But yeah, so far it looks like it didn't take much to get "Perfect" Cloak...something that would come off as an extreme.
Okay, so the OP suggested dropping the buff from +500 to +100. What would the two numbers be given our guy from above...getting better...so to speak? Vs. that 586.9 cloak, eh?
So I guess it goes back to what can stack...and...does the 610 Cloak still exist? Because if it does, then +100 would be piddly - the "normal" 510 guy would still be a 0m viewable, eh?
At the same time though...that's a pretty heinous viewable with the +500. One of the complaints being brought up being the ability to command target somebody and get a pseudo eye on their position. Isn't there a limit on that? Could have sworn there was - targets drop off after a period. If that limit doesn't exist, then perhaps that would be an issue to address separately...keeping in mind that would affect both cloaked and non-cloaked targets.
Oh well, seems like I've just got more questions going than answers - but I didn't want it to seem like ol' Spacecase VD was trying to troll a Ground thread. It's not my thing, but I really do hate extremes - almost have a fetish for trying to find balance in the game...and yeah...
...oh well, I'll be back if I find out more elsewhere or if somebody offers up any replies here.
So I guess it goes back to what can stack...and...does the 610 Cloak still exist? Because if it does, then +100 would be piddly - the "normal" 510 guy would still be a 0m viewable, eh?.
With Gamma Quadrant Tribble which gives +5% Stealth and Perception, my tactical officer is sitting on 612.3 Stealth rating.
With Gamma Quadrant Tribble which gives +5% Stealth and Perception, my tactical officer is sitting on 612.3 Stealth rating.
Talk about extremes.
Oh, that brings up a new question then (outside of the one about how I could forget the GQ Tribble when it's been mentioned in a few things)...
That +5%, is that a final modifier? Does it come after Covert? Are you at ~583.1 before equipping it? Or is it more a case of it being (~485.9 + 5%) + 20% to get to that 612.3?
A quick look at it suggest that's how it works...hrmm.
Base SM3 of 475 -> modified by Special Forces (6-7 or so) -> +5% from GQ -> +20% from Covert...
Definitely thanks for that - cause yeah, then it would take it back to the question I had about whether the issue would actually be about the command/chat targeting as opposed to anything else...hrmmm.
Let's see if we can reach an agreement on this issue. My thoughts on stealth/counter stealth in a nutshell:
The Hirogen Hunter Sight ability's perception buff is far too extreme. It needs to be toned down to 100. However, I do think some form of Critical hit chance/damage or Exploit chance/damage should be added. In it's current state, it has little use in PvE.
The Shattering Harmonics perception buff is moderately high to extreme. In ideal world, it would be best to drop the bonus to +250 perception and increase armor damage resistance.
Target Optics and Tricorder Scan both need to start off at +50 perception and scale upward to +100 via nine ranks in their relevant commander level skill.
Target Optics needs a -50 to -100 (based on skill points) stealth to all targets within an 8 meter sphere.
Acute Senses and Limited Telepathy both need to be increased to +20 or +30 perception.
The Omega Distortion Field needs to be changed so that the stealth bonus is only temporarily broken for the duration of any attack that activates a warning animation.
Point three on that list will become painfully obvious once Cryptic releases Stealth Module IV. I don't know about everyone else in this game, but I'm really sick of bouncing between the two extremes. Stealth was a problem with Season 5 and Cryptic added a hard counter with Legacy of Romulus (Shattering Harmonics). Players learned a lot in between Season 5 and LoR about countering stealthed players, but at least Tricorder Scan has always worked.
There needs to be a balance, players invested in stealth shouldn't be detectable by players that aren't using any stealth countering abilities. At the same time, players using stealth countering abilities should be able to detect stealthed players at a reasonable range. By a reasonable range I mean greater than 5 meters, but less than 30. Stealth is meant to mask a player's presence from the other team. They shouldn't be detectable at 120 meters, the longest ranged weapon in the game fires to 45 meters (Sniper shot), there is no reason for such extreme stealth detection.
I want Stealth to be an enjoyable mechanic to use and an enjoyable mechanic to counter. This cannot be achieved while we are bouncing between extremes. Can we at least agree on the above points?
again i just never post, been here since closed beta. also face roll you in ques all the time
I've asked around, nobody has even heard of your forum name. I did some digging and I figured it out, you are Marcello@BROKEN1981 of Federation Emergency Services. As I recall, you haven't been sighted in the ground queues in over a year and a half. Wait, your account was forum banned over a year ago. No wonder you made a new account... You "just never post", eh?
Then there are various Traits that provide +10 to +20, but it appears the most you can get from this is +20 (the +20 appearing to be a combination of the two +10 Traits that can't be taken by toons with a +20)...right?
So you'd be looking at up to 520 from Base + Traits, right so far?
Close, Base Ground Perception is +510. You have the Acute Senses trait for +10 perception and the Limited Telepathy trait for +10 perception. Target Optics and Tricorder Scan each add +50 perception with 9 ranks in their Commander skill. Shattering Harmonics and the Hirogen Armor each provide +500 perception. Then you have things like the Gamma Quadrant Tribble (+5% Perception and Stealth). There is also Dyson Armor for +10 Perception and the Klingon Intelligence Armor (KDF only) that adds +16% Perception and Stealth. Both the KDF armor and the Gamma Tribble stack as final modifiers. The most stealth a player can get is 587.76. There are already more ways to detect stealth players at an extended range than there are methods of increasing stealth. The two +stealth items also add perception, which cancels out against anyone also using said detection item.
Can't find the exact number, so this is an approximation off a calc FES has...but it appears that for each positive 10 difference between Perception and Stealth there is a ~3.28m or so viewable difference.
That tool by FES is incorrect, it uses the detection range of 0.3 meters/1 perception instead of 0.334/1 perception. They never took into account the decimal, which gets more and more apparent the further out the cloaked player is on the map.
Weapon Range is 30m (going to assume there's dropoff like there is for Space, so closer is better).
The only Ground weapon with damage dropoff is the Pulsewave Assault class weapons. They lose 75% of their damage at about 5 meters, but they supposedly have a range of 25 meters.
I read something, though, about you need 610 for "Perfect" Cloak - as not to be seen at 0m. Is that still valid? Am I off somewhere in my calculations so far? Can the Portable Shroud Generator (+475 fragile Stealth) still stack with the 586.9 so far? Does the Covert +20% boost that as well (or either if it does not stack)?
There is no such thing as "perfect" stealth in ground combat. That 610 thing was a rumor propagated by one specific individual and eventually proven to be false. Detection range of stealthed or non-stealthed players is based on the formula (Your Perception - Target's Stealth) * (1/3) = Detection Range (meters). Say my character's stealth rating is 500 from a stealth buff. You don't have any perception buffs, thus you will be able to see me at 3.334 meters. (510 - 500) * (1/3) = 3.334.
Now the same goes for non-stealthed players. If you walk into the Subspace Manipulator Dampening Field, ground version of subspace rupture, your character will suffer a significant perception debuff. The precise debuff is hidden, but let's assume it's -440 perception. [(Base Perception 510 - Perception Debuff 440) - Target Stealth Bonus 0] * (1/3) = 23.334 meters of detection range. Any target non-stealthed target further from that range will be hidden. A stealthed target would further degrade the detection range.
Oh, that brings up a new question then (outside of the one about how I could forget the GQ Tribble when it's been mentioned in a few things)...
That +5%, is that a final modifier? Does it come after Covert? Are you at ~583.1 before equipping it? Or is it more a case of it being (~485.9 + 5%) + 20% to get to that 612.3?
A quick look at it suggest that's how it works...hrmm.
Base SM3 of 475 -> modified by Special Forces (6-7 or so) -> +5% from GQ -> +20% from Covert...
Definitely thanks for that - cause yeah, then it would take it back to the question I had about whether the issue would actually be about the command/chat targeting as opposed to anything else...hrmmm.
You take the final stealth value after skill points, add up all the modifiers, and multiply that together. Let's go for maximum stealth, nine ranks Special Forces for 489.8 stealth with stealth module III. Toss on Cover (20%), the Gamma Quadrant Tribble (+5%), and the Klingon only armor (+16%). That's 489.8 + [489.8 *(0.2 + 0.05 + 0.16)] = 690.618 stealth. However, because the +16% stealth is on the armor, it is subject to a boost from Combat Armor if I recall correctly (it's been 7 months since I looked at this last), thus the numbers will be even higher. The Gamma Tribble and the Klingon Armor aren't much of an issue, they also provide a perception buff identical to the stealth buff, it's possible to counter the items by using the items.
really? stop trying to hide the facts. we all know we can get perfect cloak. pug is a coder for a living and is a numbers god. yes a bit more is going on in the back round. but pugs calc is correct.
we all know you love that cloak. actually we know you would love to have it buffed even more even tho it does not need a buff. you and tallon just cloak and stomp noobs. why did you and other just beam out of a match against FES? oh right cause they beat your noob stomping tactis.
really? stop trying to hide the facts. we all know we can get perfect cloak. pug is a coder for a living and is a numbers god. yes a bit more is going on in the back round. but pugs calc is correct.
He used 0.3 instead of 0.333 repeating. Just because someone is a programmer in the real world doesn't mean he can't be wrong with numbers. In this case, he was wrong, which has been proven time and time again. He rounded to the nearest tenths place for the calculations, which is fine in some cases, it will come close. However, the further out you go, the further it becomes apparent that he incorrectly rounded up.
we all know you love that cloak. actually we know you would love to have it buffed even more even tho it does not need a buff.
I play Science more than I play Tactical, you'd know that if you hadn't been away for over a year and a half from the ground queues. This post I made fully sums up my opinion on this matter. I'm hoping that stealth/counter stealth can be moved back away from the extremes. The points I outlined would do just that if they were to go live.
Lastly, you really shouldn't have created another account to get around your forum ban...
Have to wonder how much of this will be moot - folks will change their tune - etc, etc, etc...with what Geko said about the possibility of xCareer slots down the road with the Kit Revamp.
Comments
I'm going to claim two flaws with that case:
1)Your stealth, you have every right and opportunity to watch and pick when to fight a target. Complaining you picked the moment when your target is at it's strongest to attack isn't very helpful.
2)My primary case against the cryowave back in the day was it was a AoE that could attack out of stealth, had no charge up time, and a massively smaller cool down then orbital strike. Which by the way, I recall criting less then five times for 2,000 in two years of playing. [edit]I believe all those time also involved a resistance debuff. I'm doing spectacular to do 1,000 damage in one OS.[/edit]
What your telling me now is that the armor/ambush now set up a situation that is the exact same reason the cryowave now does a special smaller damage range in PvP.
The problem with the Cryo Pulsewave was the fact that it ignored conventional damage resistances. It is now in line with the rest of the pulsewave assault weapons within the game. You think Operative strikes are bad? Try taking a look at a full Croniton Mine Barrier, that thing can deal well over 3,600 damage and it can be used every 22 seconds. Whereas the operative strike may only be performed once every 60 seconds, every 80 if they plan to go for the full strike. Orbital Strike is also capable of hitting for 3,000 damage, just use Equipment Diagnostic duty officers, power cells, and wait for Strike Team II.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I agree.
As for the armor, yeah why put in a few balanced detection methods to currently existing kits/skills when you can just ramhammer the entire dynamic and come close to annihilating a gameplay niche by giving a humongous number like +500?
Oh yeah, it sells lockboxes. Got it.
I'm upset, and I don't even play ground. (Meaning I want to see balanced additions to gameplay that add nuance and not giant bombs dropped on playstyle niches whatever those niches are.)
The hirogen armor also suffers from the exact same effect, while using "Hunter Sight" I can't sprint, if you see me using said ability.. all you need to do is fall back... unless you're in an open area, I won't be able to catch up to you.
Would be funny though :P
Well, I was thinking of cool down timers, but ok.
See also: "Your stealth, you have every right and opportunity to watch and pick when to fight a target. Complaining you picked the moment when your target is at it's strongest to attack isn't very helpful."
The lack of cold resistance is what help it up to the massive damages. (That actually should have been the patch, I think.)
What got it nerfed wasn't how it did massive damage, it was that it did damage enough to one hit someone.
I did try that. Routinely. That isn't easy to use. (24 second cool down + 2-3second arm time, iirc.)
Aside from having a visible animation flagging it's position, in plain sight (When someone is not exploiting LoS bugs), being not mobile, and a delay before it arms?
...you want me to compare that to ambush?
Correction:
1) I have to wait for a 30% chance (that just recently applied to OS) to happen once every 90 seconds.
2) To actually hit in PvP? I have to wait for the perfect storm. I have to wait and pray everytime my target is so occupied or disabled to do something about the big shiny circle waiting ~5seconds to actually hit them. Oh, and I'm rooted and disabled while I wait that 5 seconds.
Before you argue, yes I can root them? Yes, I can root them (if they're kind enough to have run out of hyposprays). There is also the issue that's a argument that power only works when I have certain kits readied.
The energy cells are not too hard to manage. Strike Team is also another "perfect storm" condition a engineer can not count on.
It got nerfed because it was dealing unresistable damage to players, there was nothing more to it, no hidden reason. The same treatment was later applied to the Nukara Elite Cryo Auto Rifle, which has never been capable of one hit killing a player.
The Operative strike is the combination of 6 different abilities. Chroniton Mine Barrier is one ability capable of dealing far more damage than a fully buffed pulsewave assault. Holding target? Really, honestly? It's not like there aren't a multitude of methods capable of holding a target for two seconds. The cooldown is so short, which means you can just spam them anyway.
You can stack 3 of the duty officer to ensure at least of them procs. It has always worked for Orbital Strike, yet until recently it didn't work for the traited version, Orbital Devastation
You'd be surprised how many openings there are with roots, stuns, and knockbacks to use Orbital Strike to full effect.
There is a 22-30 second cooldown on hypos. If they use it to clear the root, they are more vulnerable to death anyway, even if the orbital misses.
Strike Team has a 100% uptime if there are two tactical officers on the team, it's a perk of Tactical Initiative, something Ground combat has been balanced around for a long time.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
We are listening to what you are saying but some of it is very weak. You are talking about hitting people with very obvious attacks, that are clearly signposted with animations and markers only a simpleton would get hit by them, unless he was being team focused and rooted etc.
Earlier you mentioned using the nukara melee set that has an armour piece that gives 6 energy resistance. That is lol. Seriously lol that you would even consider that an option. There are other people to fight besides cloakers you know.
We are talking about 20 second perfect stealth detection every 80 seconds, that sacrifices a 3 set armour bonus. So it basically replaces a 3 set armour bonus essentially. However it does nothing for combat effectiveness overall, it only affects cloakers. In a stand up fight, its a 3 set bonus that does nothing to help damage or damage reduction. Thats a trade off in itself.
As i said earlier, the cooldown does not reset until the buff has been terminated. I agree, tac initiative should not reduce it further, and this is all that needs fixing in my opinion.
Be realistic here, you are just a bit jaded because your near perfect noob killing stealth tacs might take a hit now and you might lose an 'iwin' button. Be reasonable, you are talking about balance, when this armour itself is balanced apart from the tac initiative reduction.
You just dont like it because the balance affects your playstyle that until now has been OP.
All attacks have counters, players are capable of dodging operative strikes just as well as they are capable of dodging engineer orbital strikes and mines. Yet Engineers still land kills, they still deal 5 times the damage/second over tactical officers consistently in PvP right now.
As I also mentioned, it's possible to eliminate the drawbacks of the set with certain kit options. All Engineers rely on shield tanking to stay alive, thus limiting the need for health resistance. They also have numerous health damage resistance buffs. Science officers are capable of using the Shattering Harmonics set with minimal risk while using the Medic or Physcician kits. Tactical officers are capable of using the set while using the Security Protocols or Squad Leader kits.
20 seconds in Ground combat is an eternity when it's possible to kill a player in three seconds or less.
This is a real balance concern that goes beyond mere cooldowns. All players have 510 perception by default. This gives them a perception range for 170 meters. The detection of stealthed players is taken into account by this formula:
A perception buff of +500 brings a player's perception to 1010. The most stealth an operative player is capable of getting through heavy investment into traits and skill points is 587.76 stealth. A single armor ability with no skill point or trait investment should not be capable of detecting a stealthed player at any range without some form of significant downside. Disabling sprint isn't significant, there's Frosted Boots and Motion Accelerator to get around that "downside". It is bad mechanic design and sets a bad precedent for the future.
If anything, I'd rather see Cryptic enhance the perception bonus obtained via skill point investment for Target Optics and Tricorder Scan. Hunter Sight should be capable of significantly enhancing player perception, but it shouldn't be capable of detecting a stealthed player anywhere on the map, there just isn't the investment for such a thing. 33.334%, 25% uptime, it makes little difference. +100 perception would be a substantial improvement worth taking on the set. If you feel that isn't worthwhile enough, remove the Sprint Disabled and tack on a bit of extra exploit damage or a critical hit/damage bonus.
Shattering Harmonics I'd personally like to see toned back to +250 perception. As for the armor, an extra +25 All Energy Damage Resistance Rating to all environmental suits would server them well. It would open their use up on additional kit combinations and it would greatly improve the set as a whole. The shield and weapon on all suits is fantastic, it's just the armor that is underperforming in the form of energy damage resistances.
Ground needs to avoid extremes, else it risks the same pitfall that has harmed space quite severely. This involves getting to gear while it is still new, else Cryptic is reluctant to do anything about the item.
Operative hasn't been overpowered since Season 5.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Grab a full Omega Force Ground set from the Omega Reputation system, toss on any fleet pulsewave with [CritX], and have a Romulan Plasma Split Beam Rifle Mk XII [CritX]x2 in order to swap out the pulsewave for long range fights. Tactical Officers use Fire Team/Operative/Squad Leader, Engineers use Enemy Neutralization/Equipment Technician/Fabrication Specialist, and Science officers use Physicist/Analyst/Medic. Throw a gambling device, large hypos, the shard of possibilities, and frosted boots into device slots and you are good to go.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Ok, true... Your missing my point here ...
... with stealth you can afford to wait! Even if ambush's +100% damage bonuses becomes a -200% damage penalty, you're missing the point here. Under stealth you hold all the cards. (barring the Hirogen armor.)
You do not have to attack until you have the advantage. If the timer runs out you can just hide behind something, wait for it to cooldown, re-stealth and try again. You can stealth right in front of someone, they know your their, and there's very little they can do about it!
...
Would it be fair to say if "ambush" had zero stealth,but still had it's +100% damage you'd still use it?
Edit: Even if your time runs out before you have the advantage, you've still popped out of nowhere on them. Your in the same fight you were when you triggered stealth. Only even if they heard you unstealth they still have to actually find and target you. You've still ambushed them in the real sense of the word.
I'd argue all cold damage along side was hit preemptively, but ok.
Well master, by all means I'll have to setup a match and let you show me how sometime next week. :P
The damage maybe on the high side, but I'll still fight you over it.
Holding the target, yes.
The mines come with bells on them when summoned, and bright shiny lights when idle! The only way to miss them is if your not watching or they're just around a corner. Avoiding them is as simple as watching for them and not stepping on them. (I did point out how stealth gives you time, right?) Avoiding a ambush is as simple as ...
...
...Not being ambushed?
Ok, I don't like stacking officers, but that's a point.
Still leave the problem of it's another attack with bright lights and bells announcing it. It's very easy to dodge when you see it coming, and OS announces it's presents grandly!
Not surprised so much, you have to get luck or creative to score a hit. I've shamelessly copied more then a few tricks to get orbital strike to hit. Which was sort of the point, it needs a lot of creative help to hit. Otherwise it's a total miss.
Ambush needs creative help to do 3K+. But it doesn't miss (as long as you can aim) :P
Also, I'd trade a 90second cooldown to not be severally hurt and burn someone else's 2min+ cooldown.
That's cool and all, but ...
...That's a "perfect storm" condition. If your talking about orbital strike, your telling me I need abilities no engineer can have to use a ability only a engineer can have.
again i just never post, been here since closed beta. also face roll you in ques all the time
FS totally pwned you last night, you're a really bad player tira...
This is the key issue i feel, and anything else is just people trying to preserve their one shot 'Iwin' button for premade/noob hunting fun so they can feel special.
In my eyes, detecting stealth perfectly, for 20 seconds every 80 seconds, is nothing to get excited about. Its not like if you are suddenly detected, the tac officer is defenceless, far from it. Nor has any mention been made of some of the powerfull ground doffs that can further enhance stealth attacks.
The only arguments i have heard to support the nerf of this suit and provide an alternative, is basically that you should have to completely gimp yourself just in order to be able to combat cheese cloakers. While this then largely will reduce your effectiveness against any other class and setup of player. Not a balanced solution.
THIS suit is the balance needed for cloakers, and this argument needs to stop. Its not even like that many people will have them either unfortunately. I am sure Cryptic will make the right decision, tac initiative should not reduce the cooldown and that's all that needs to be changed. I'm just going to stop commenting now, i feel i have said all i can on the matter, and so have the other contributors really.
It's an extreme. I can't speak for anybody else, but the vast majority of my nonsensical (is VD having a seizure, he's going to get banned, etc) rants over the years have been about yo-yo mechanics and extremes. I loathe them.
Yo-yo systems are something to get excited about - to rant about - to wag a finger at the screen while cursing Cryptic about.
There shouldn't be any perfects, imho - everything should be a dance of near-perfects, and tada - skill comes into play. Otherwise it's just a case of quick games of paper-scissors-rock with the roll of the dice while fingers are crossed...it's not fun.
Shattering Harmonics may seem op, but it is not. Even if using its bug you still wasting secondary weapon slot.
As Tira says, Hirogen armour has no any downs. Teh argument that you cant sprint while using its ability is meaningless. Carrier of this armor doesn't have to sprint to the detected target. All he has to do is use its ranged debuffs (Fire, on my Mark, Phisicist, Enemy Neutralisation kits, Orbital Strike) and reveal them to their team (like tricoder scan, so your team can see them too). Carrier of this armour is protected from ranged damage as well.
Also note, that this armour shall be used by a premades in first place. Cloaking can be a last ditch afford in those cases (like in Arena), but it is nullified now.
It is incorrect how a single P2W item can nullify whole strategy. I don't cloak myself as I prefer Fire Team, but cloaker detection is on its own funny and challenging thing.
My personal opinion. I think this armour was made because of lots of QQ from incompetent nibcakes which complain about fixed long time ago decloak + cryo launcher one shot strategy. Since it was fixed this armour ought to be just one more shinny from lobi store with some unique visuals.
Thanks
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
I said i wasn't going to comment again but just this last parting one. Lol.
Mate you cant just label everything, every topic has its own context. This is not an 'extreme'. Its not a way to kill someone, Debuff someone, disable someone. Its merely a way of briefly countering a cheese method. The only 'extreme' in this scenario, is the cloaked tac operative with all his cds popped, ambush, ambush doffs overflowing, and a nice pulsewave locked and loaded.
All this suit does is let you see where he is. It doesn't help you kill him, or reduce his weapon and buff effects, or his armour and set bonuses, or anything else. Just see him dripping in cheese behind you ready to press 'Iwin'. Thats where your skill can come in, when the fight starts.
But what some people are suggesting on this thread is most certainly an extreme. Offering alternatives to the Hirogen suit that basically revolve around you setting up your whole build to counter what could be 1 player out of 5 on the team. or even no players out of 5. Then what? You are extremely ****ed is what.
Any power that requires you to build almost entirely around countering it, at detriment to your own damage or buffs, THAT IS AN EXTREME.
In this context, seeing someone for 20 seconds out of every 80 isn't an 'extreme'. Its a balance. Just puts him in the same position as all the non cloakers on his team for 20 seconds. I don't see why its such a heartbreaker, especially as a lot of people wont even have spare lobi to buy one.
As i said its a knee jerk reaction to someone losing a small part of their pvp ego.
Er...
...is an extreme.
It's not a case of arguing that the other end of the spectrum is not an extreme as well...it's a case of arguing against all such extremes.
There shouldn't be perfect stealth nor perfect stealth detection. Where extreme would come into play, would be in the extreme effort needed to reach near perfect - which couldn't actually ever be reached.
A decent example would be diminishing returns on damage resistance in space. "75%" is all but impossible to reach (outside of special gimmicks, meh).
I used to run a dedicated Snooper in Space. I had to work at the build - it needed a bunch of things to be able to do that particular dance with the Sneaker. Even there, in the end I had the advantage (at a cost) because I could Snoop more than he could Sneak. It created a role. Then through a combination of buffs and nerfs to various things, there simply was no need for that role. Stealth Detection is so insanely easy...there's no longer the need for all the consoles, being in a particular ship, running high aux, being a Sci, taking certain traits, doing this, doing that...it's just not needed - you can get more than enough Perception from a couple of things to deal with the nerfed Stealth.
So it's a case of arguing for balanced returns on investments, diminished returns on investments, and all those awesome dances...
...not the eyes closed, pinkytoe on the spacebar, and fingers crossed as the dice are rolled nonsense that exists - and - the kind of nonsense that more and more folks are pushing for every day.
edit: And the 20 of 80s thing...it's team game, eh? Just saying...
Question (that's not a prelude to some plan, for once.):
Is the detect people across the map thing part of the plan?
-OR-
Was the +500 perception to just make sure no one could hide under a cloak?
Edit: I ask because if it's the second, and the first is a problem? Could 'Hunter's Sight' just be a huge AoE that explicitly removes stealth or weakens stealth skills to the point of uselessness?
I could agree with virus that the extremes go both ways. Why should some cloaker be able to march up to 0m on a distracted player and just gank them and trololol away after? They shouldn't but since they can why shouldn't there be a way to know it's coming sometimes? The perception you can build up in space can make cloaking pointless for an entire match and the cloaked ships don't have shields. Ground cloakers pay for it with run speed loss but um *cough frosted boots cough*.
If there's to be finger wagging about this armor's ability to counter stealth then their should be the same about how close a cloaked player can get without being detected. Just because the OP seems to have trouble getting that kill from a de-cloak ambush doesn't mean others are having trouble.
Sometimes tira I think you spend so much time worrying about numbers and trying to invent perfect situations as theoretical examples of how something is OP that you don't even try to adapt to changes.
I just don't see the problem with this armor. High HP pool but reduced resistances, loss of a set bonus to use it, the same run speed debuff stealth players have while cloaked. If we are to accept that stealth is what it is and is balanced in the eyes of cryptic then having hard counters to it are also balanced.
Now, if equipping that armor had given the wearer innate stealth sight of this magnitude I could agree that would be a problem but it doesn't. It's a click power with a cooldown. Cloaker wants to gank they better watch for if it's up before trying.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
Base Ground Perception: 500
Then there are various Traits that provide +10 to +20, but it appears the most you can get from this is +20 (the +20 appearing to be a combination of the two +10 Traits that can't be taken by toons with a +20)...right?
So you'd be looking at up to 520 from Base + Traits, right so far?
Can't find the exact number, so this is an approximation off a calc FES has...but it appears that for each positive 10 difference between Perception and Stealth there is a ~3.28m or so viewable difference.
So if we flip over to the Stealth side for a moment...
Base Stealth Module III Stealth: 475
So bPerception vs. bSM3...it's a viewable distance of ~7.6m.
+10 Perception; 10.7m
+20 Perception; 13.7m
Weapon Range is 30m (going to assume there's dropoff like there is for Space, so closer is better).
My apologies for this being back and forth, somewhat scattered - it's a learning process. (I wasn't kidding when I said I knew next to nothing about Ground. I did Ground PvP once - almost two years ago. I've never done a Ground STF, never done Defera nor Nukara, and Hell, only been to the new BZ once. Ground's not my thing. So why am I babbling away in this thread? I hate extremes!)
So, Tricorder Scan III provides +25 to +49.75/50 Perception...depending on points in Scientist. +1% for each point (not rank, but point - 3 ranks is 54 points). It also provides a Stealth Debuff, but you have to actually target the person for that, no?
Okay, though, say we're at 570 Perception vs. 475 Stealth then - we're at 28.9m - seeing them shortly after they've moved into Weapon Range (if we're lucky that we drop TricScan at that point, eh?)...
But it's not like they can't buff their Stealth. 9(99) in Special Forces should take that SM3 to ~489.1 Stealth.
vs. +20 Perception: 9.4m
vs. ^-- & 99 TricScan: 24.6m
Covert would give them +20%, taking the ~489.1 to ~586.9 Stealth. Which creates a negative difference, and that 0m viewable distance...right?
I read something, though, about you need 610 for "Perfect" Cloak - as not to be seen at 0m. Is that still valid? Am I off somewhere in my calculations so far? Can the Portable Shroud Generator (+475 fragile Stealth) still stack with the 586.9 so far? Does the Covert +20% boost that as well (or either if it does not stack)?
But yeah, so far it looks like it didn't take much to get "Perfect" Cloak...something that would come off as an extreme.
Okay, so the OP suggested dropping the buff from +500 to +100. What would the two numbers be given our guy from above...getting better...so to speak? Vs. that 586.9 cloak, eh?
Base Perception (500)
+500: 125.8m
+100: 4m
w/1 Trait (510)
+500: 128.8m
+100: 7m
w/2 Traits or 1 Double Trait (520)
+500: 131.9m
+100: 10.1m
w/TricScan3 (545)
+500: 139.5m
+100: 17.7m
w/99 Science (570)
+500: 147.1m
+100: 25.3m
So I guess it goes back to what can stack...and...does the 610 Cloak still exist? Because if it does, then +100 would be piddly - the "normal" 510 guy would still be a 0m viewable, eh?
At the same time though...that's a pretty heinous viewable with the +500. One of the complaints being brought up being the ability to command target somebody and get a pseudo eye on their position. Isn't there a limit on that? Could have sworn there was - targets drop off after a period. If that limit doesn't exist, then perhaps that would be an issue to address separately...keeping in mind that would affect both cloaked and non-cloaked targets.
Oh well, seems like I've just got more questions going than answers - but I didn't want it to seem like ol' Spacecase VD was trying to troll a Ground thread. It's not my thing, but I really do hate extremes - almost have a fetish for trying to find balance in the game...and yeah...
...oh well, I'll be back if I find out more elsewhere or if somebody offers up any replies here.
For the love of god, would you PLEASE spell "cloak" correctly for once.
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With Gamma Quadrant Tribble which gives +5% Stealth and Perception, my tactical officer is sitting on 612.3 Stealth rating.
Talk about extremes.
Oh, that brings up a new question then (outside of the one about how I could forget the GQ Tribble when it's been mentioned in a few things)...
That +5%, is that a final modifier? Does it come after Covert? Are you at ~583.1 before equipping it? Or is it more a case of it being (~485.9 + 5%) + 20% to get to that 612.3?
A quick look at it suggest that's how it works...hrmm.
Base SM3 of 475 -> modified by Special Forces (6-7 or so) -> +5% from GQ -> +20% from Covert...
Definitely thanks for that - cause yeah, then it would take it back to the question I had about whether the issue would actually be about the command/chat targeting as opposed to anything else...hrmmm.
Edit: Selun beat me too it but yea sitting at 0m and not being detected still exists.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
Point three on that list will become painfully obvious once Cryptic releases Stealth Module IV. I don't know about everyone else in this game, but I'm really sick of bouncing between the two extremes. Stealth was a problem with Season 5 and Cryptic added a hard counter with Legacy of Romulus (Shattering Harmonics). Players learned a lot in between Season 5 and LoR about countering stealthed players, but at least Tricorder Scan has always worked.
There needs to be a balance, players invested in stealth shouldn't be detectable by players that aren't using any stealth countering abilities. At the same time, players using stealth countering abilities should be able to detect stealthed players at a reasonable range. By a reasonable range I mean greater than 5 meters, but less than 30. Stealth is meant to mask a player's presence from the other team. They shouldn't be detectable at 120 meters, the longest ranged weapon in the game fires to 45 meters (Sniper shot), there is no reason for such extreme stealth detection.
I want Stealth to be an enjoyable mechanic to use and an enjoyable mechanic to counter. This cannot be achieved while we are bouncing between extremes. Can we at least agree on the above points?
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Close, Base Ground Perception is +510. You have the Acute Senses trait for +10 perception and the Limited Telepathy trait for +10 perception. Target Optics and Tricorder Scan each add +50 perception with 9 ranks in their Commander skill. Shattering Harmonics and the Hirogen Armor each provide +500 perception. Then you have things like the Gamma Quadrant Tribble (+5% Perception and Stealth). There is also Dyson Armor for +10 Perception and the Klingon Intelligence Armor (KDF only) that adds +16% Perception and Stealth. Both the KDF armor and the Gamma Tribble stack as final modifiers. The most stealth a player can get is 587.76. There are already more ways to detect stealth players at an extended range than there are methods of increasing stealth. The two +stealth items also add perception, which cancels out against anyone also using said detection item.
That tool by FES is incorrect, it uses the detection range of 0.3 meters/1 perception instead of 0.334/1 perception. They never took into account the decimal, which gets more and more apparent the further out the cloaked player is on the map.
The only Ground weapon with damage dropoff is the Pulsewave Assault class weapons. They lose 75% of their damage at about 5 meters, but they supposedly have a range of 25 meters.
There is no such thing as "perfect" stealth in ground combat. That 610 thing was a rumor propagated by one specific individual and eventually proven to be false. Detection range of stealthed or non-stealthed players is based on the formula (Your Perception - Target's Stealth) * (1/3) = Detection Range (meters). Say my character's stealth rating is 500 from a stealth buff. You don't have any perception buffs, thus you will be able to see me at 3.334 meters. (510 - 500) * (1/3) = 3.334.
Now the same goes for non-stealthed players. If you walk into the Subspace Manipulator Dampening Field, ground version of subspace rupture, your character will suffer a significant perception debuff. The precise debuff is hidden, but let's assume it's -440 perception. [(Base Perception 510 - Perception Debuff 440) - Target Stealth Bonus 0] * (1/3) = 23.334 meters of detection range. Any target non-stealthed target further from that range will be hidden. A stealthed target would further degrade the detection range.
You take the final stealth value after skill points, add up all the modifiers, and multiply that together. Let's go for maximum stealth, nine ranks Special Forces for 489.8 stealth with stealth module III. Toss on Cover (20%), the Gamma Quadrant Tribble (+5%), and the Klingon only armor (+16%). That's 489.8 + [489.8 *(0.2 + 0.05 + 0.16)] = 690.618 stealth. However, because the +16% stealth is on the armor, it is subject to a boost from Combat Armor if I recall correctly (it's been 7 months since I looked at this last), thus the numbers will be even higher. The Gamma Tribble and the Klingon Armor aren't much of an issue, they also provide a perception buff identical to the stealth buff, it's possible to counter the items by using the items.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
really? stop trying to hide the facts. we all know we can get perfect cloak. pug is a coder for a living and is a numbers god. yes a bit more is going on in the back round. but pugs calc is correct.
we all know you love that cloak. actually we know you would love to have it buffed even more even tho it does not need a buff. you and tallon just cloak and stomp noobs. why did you and other just beam out of a match against FES? oh right cause they beat your noob stomping tactis.
why do you need that crutch tira?
I play Science more than I play Tactical, you'd know that if you hadn't been away for over a year and a half from the ground queues. This post I made fully sums up my opinion on this matter. I'm hoping that stealth/counter stealth can be moved back away from the extremes. The points I outlined would do just that if they were to go live.
Lastly, you really shouldn't have created another account to get around your forum ban...
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Eng with 4x Eng & SM3+!
Sci with 4x Sci & SM3+!
Let it die.