Peeps are hating on ENT for having inconsistencies? lolwut? It was no worse in that regard than any other series.
Archer absolutely loathed that he had to resort to an act of piracy to complete his mission. It's not something he did just because it was convenient. THAT is why that episode worked. It's not "moral relativism". It's a matter of making a seemingly impossible choice.
Anyways, back to discussing the KDF....
Klingons are obviously the main "Honorable warrior" types.
Gorn fall into that category to a large extent, though Gorn don't prize honor the way Klingons do.
Letheans... no idea.
Nausicaans are warriors, but a bit shifty and not particularly honorable.
Orions.... will shoot you in the back just as often as they'll fight honorably.
Peeps are hating on ENT for having inconsistencies? lolwut? It was no worse in that regard than any other series.
Archer absolutely loathed that he had to resort to an act of piracy to complete his mission. It's not something he did just because it was convenient. THAT is why that episode worked. It's not "moral relativism". It's a matter of making a seemingly impossible choice.
Anyways, back to discussing the KDF....
Klingons are obviously the main "Honorable warrior" types.
Gorn fall into that category to a large extent, though Gorn don't prize honor the way Klingons do.
Letheans... no idea.
Nausicaans are warriors, but a bit shifty and not particularly honorable.
Orions.... will shoot you in the back just as often as they'll fight honorably.
My issues with ENT is Archer behaving like a homeless guy in space when Berman and Braga were in charge.
And back to the KDF: What little we know of the Ferasans is that they also have a code of honor (no, not that one, forget that episode!) and that honor requires loyalty to the Ferasan people which if broken makes a person or clan "unforgiven" and thus enemies of the state. So I would say they're not so different than the Klingons.
Of all the possibilities, this is the most important to me. Why? Because it defines the relationship between the Orions and the rest of the Empire. I personally suspect that the Orions have to a large extent taken over as the Empire's preeminent traders, but.... that's just head canon.
I actually brought this up when I wrote my foundry mission "Diplomacy in the Gamma Quadrant".
Actually I wouldn't be surprised if much of the trade was being taken over by Orions. These are areas I see the Orions dominating, merchants, criminal industries, medicine (ever notice how the doctors in the KDF are usually Orions including in your ship interior), Entertainment, Bar Tending, Klingon Intelligence, certain Diplomatic postings, and so on.
read though this thread. i like the discussion on the influence of the orions. really interesting stuff.
what makes me really shake my head though is that I find it interesting that people give the shows a free pass multiple times, or whenever they get stupid "writers brain TRIBBLE" gosh there were a lot of those. But rail against STO when it's own storylines don't always line up and some things have to be explained with headcanon... just like the shows.
read though this thread. i like the discussion on the influence of the orions. really interesting stuff.
what makes me really shake my head though is that I find it interesting that people give the shows a free pass multiple times, or whenever they get stupid "writers brain TRIBBLE" gosh there were a lot of those. But rail against STO when it's own storylines don't always line up and some things have to be explained with headcanon... just like the shows.
really terrible 'fans.'
With all due respect, things are a bit different regarding that. As one other player - stoleviathan99 once said while discussing a similar topic - stupid or so called by me 'brain TRIBBLE' episodes happen, but you only watch it once for about 45mins and that's it. You know it sucks, so you don't have to watch it ever again. Like for example me - I always skip all DS9 mirror episodes because I find them crappy. But in STO, when a 'brain TRIBBLE' occurs, it's not a single episode - you're pretty much stuck with it for an entire season or throughout the game's entire lifespan. That's the difference right there. The team behind STO should focus draining content ideas and concepts from the quality episodes in Trek, not the 'brain TRIBBLE' ones.
And do step down from your high-horse for a minute. You're telling me that the missing storylines for the KDF in terms of how the alliance came to be is like, cool? And we're terrible fans to ask for some story content that explains it?
Head canon is not cool for the explanation of why the Empire is allied with the feds at endgame.
We need the storyline to both back it up and to explain to old and new players alike why we go from war to peace so quickly so the STO question of why we are warring is answered.
Head canon is not cool for the explanation of why the Empire is allied with the feds at endgame.
We need the storyline to both back it up and to explain to old and new players alike why we go from war to peace so quickly so the STO question of why we are warring is answered.
Well, they kinda did.... "Because J'mpok said so".
J'mpok declared war because he saw that as the best way to halt the spread of Undine infiltrators. That hasn't been resolved to his satisfaction, thus the state of war continues.
And like the Omega force guy says.... stopping the Borg is more important than fighting with the Feds over what to do about the Undine.
Not really a "gameplay" feedback question. Just a canon RP tickle my interest question.
I have an Orion Tactical toon... and I have a Mogh Class Battlecruiser...Love playing it. Nice playstyle and very fun to command..
But...
How in the world does an Orion get her hands on the newest battleship the Empire has come out with? Is it possible that she can have that kind of influence within the KDF to commandeer such a vessel? Are Non-Klingons second class citizens within the Empire, or am I misreading something here?
"Blackmail" is such a ... dirty word. I prefer the term... "Creative Application of Leveraged Influence."
In any case, this is a great place to stretch the storytelling muscles. Just think of all the times Mr. Roddenberry and his minions (due respect!) had to come up with plausible reasons for all the weird stuff that happened to Kirk and HIS ?minions?. (also due respect!).
Please reconsider ARC. Please make it optional, at the least. PLEASE.
It seems the vast majority of your most active players (forum regulars) hate the idea... and while that's a small subset of the playerbase, I think it's an important constituency.
THE PLAYERS DO NOT WANT THIS.
Head canon is not cool for the explanation of why the Empire is allied with the feds at endgame.
We need the storyline to both back it up and to explain to old and new players alike why we go from war to peace so quickly so the STO question of why we are warring is answered.
That and the whole implied J'empok is an undine thing, its a pretty big point to ignore when the guy running the show may be an infiltrator pushing for war because he seeks to destabilize the KDF and the entire quadrant.
Well, they kinda did.... "Because J'mpok said so".
J'mpok declared war because he saw that as the best way to halt the spread of Undine infiltrators. That hasn't been resolved to his satisfaction, thus the state of war continues.
And like the Omega force guy says.... stopping the Borg is more important than fighting with the Feds over what to do about the Undine.
That may be Jmpoks idea. The game doesnt touch it though so the truth is not known by the player. Or he could be a Undine working the destabilization from the klingon angle.
Section 31 believes the Undine have infiltrated to the highest levels of Star Fleet and the UFP, yet they do nothing in story to show how they are fighting it.
We have darned little ingame to explain the war setting that STO is experiencing and no good explanation on why it no longer applies when our characters have reached endgame.
STO needs more than head canon and "because they say so" plot holes.
That may be Jmpoks idea. The game doesnt touch it though so the truth is not known by the player. Or he could be a Undine working the destabilization from the klingon angle.
Section 31 believes the Undine have infiltrated to the highest levels of Star Fleet and the UFP, yet they do nothing in story to show how they are fighting it.
We have darned little ingame to explain the war setting that STO is experiencing and no good explanation on why it no longer applies when our characters have reached endgame.
STO needs more than head canon and "because they say so" plot holes.
did you read the lore data files? :P
Oh and the Omega Force guy actually DID spell out part of it.
Oh and the Omega Force guy actually DID spell out part of it.
You're missing the point. We want to be able to experience that part of the storyline that is currently missing and left unexplained rather than desparately trying to glue togehter scarce lore files and random NPC chat.
Trust me it doesnt make us happy either, but better than the llhrei'sian's, that deliberately chose to let our homeworlds die. At least you sseikea's can be dealt with, someday perhaps we can even train you into being trustworthy.
As to the OP, the klingons respect strength, thats why they admire Worf (who at one time was discommodated(sp?)) and Jadzia Dax, a small female. So if your orion can do all the things in that they have to do in the storyline, then they are worthy of the empires greatest warships.
With regard to the whole Orion issue, one has to wonder if the Pheromones should have any effect whatsoever on the reptilian races of the Gorn and the Lethean, and the Predator-things that are the Nausicaan. I'm not really sure what a Lizard or Predator thing gets out of a relationship with an Orion, and the biology would be so different I don't think it would work. Perhaps these races, often acting as advisors to Klingons can behave as a stop-gap against such things? We often see Letheans and Nausicaans in particular operating as the elite guard of important Klingon figures. Just a thought.
That being said I'd personally like to see more thought being put into not only the factions of the KDF, but their Ship Interiors, Missions surrounding their factions, and the culture. Its clear the Letheans are both useful and repressed, but I suspect some of them stand out. Nausicaans are well known for having powerful Mercenary units. I figure they're the Swiss Guard or Hessians of their day. Orions keep all the pesky business going, and scratch the Klingon's backs enough to make them think they're in control. Its probably a powderkeg waiting to happen, but not entirely impossible. I've also always said that I foresee this new Empire as something of a response to the growth of the Federation. The Klingons are developing a 'Federation' of their own, and one more in their image, with them in charge. Its not too crazy a notion. Cultures invariably change, and even in the shows the Klingon culture changed, and there were times when the oldtimers would complain about the changes in the shows.
To answer the OP's question, I have tended to try and put my Non Klingons in their own racial ships, or oddball ships. This is why My Gorn tac is probably gonna fly a Monbosh/S'golth. My Gorn Sci flies a Varanus. My Lethean Sci flies the Tholian vessels. Lethean Tac flies a Kar'fi, and Lethean Engineer is tentatively slated for an Obelisk. I tend to keep the Klingon vessels in Klingon hands, excluding BoP which is just a cheap workhorse, but a tried and true one (even if its value has been greatly nerfed with a number of rules changes and the Romulan release).
The Ferasans: The fact that the Ferasan NPCs seem to be members of the Honor Guard and the Doff Chain implies the KDF is actively pursuing diplomacy with them seems to indicate some favoritism towards them on the Klingon High Council. I remember one of Councilor Woldan's bodyguards during the Khitomer Conference in the Romulan Storyline being a Ferasan. And while the Ferasans are clearly Expies of the Kzinti, I like them better, because they have sentient females, an interest in genetic engineering and interesting designs. They're like if the Romulans met Khan and the Augments in cat form.
actually, the Catian are the ones with the sentiant females, not the Ferasan. the breeding program that led to nonsentiant females is what caused the catian diaspora, which is the basis of many different federation Doff missions.
in this case, the Ferasan are the "kzinti hegemony" and still an independant power, while the Catian are the "Lyran Democratic Republic" about a century and a half after being absorbed into the federation.
this is all holdovers from back when Star Trek and Known Space shared common cannon.
actually, the Catian are the ones with the sentiant females, not the Ferasan. the breeding program that led to nonsentiant females is what caused the catian diaspora, which is the basis of many different federation Doff missions.
in this case, the Ferasan are the "kzinti hegemony" and still an independant power, while the Catian are the "Lyran Democratic Republic" about a century and a half after being absorbed into the federation.
this is all holdovers from back when Star Trek and Known Space shared common cannon.
So I guess all those female Ferasan PCs, Female Ferasan Boffs, and Female Ferasan Duty officers who are all capable of speech (indeed one of the very rare doffs has a very long and ELOQUENT speech about loyalty to the clans). Sorry. That bit has been retconned.
well the "non-sentient" part was always artificially engineered by the Kzinti. If the Ferasans are an off-shoot and not the actual Kzinti it makes sense.
actually, the Catian are the ones with the sentiant females, not the Ferasan. the breeding program that led to nonsentiant females is what caused the catian diaspora, which is the basis of many different federation Doff missions.
in this case, the Ferasan are the "kzinti hegemony" and still an independant power, while the Catian are the "Lyran Democratic Republic" about a century and a half after being absorbed into the federation.
this is all holdovers from back when Star Trek and Known Space shared common cannon.
In that case I'd have to ask what happened to the rest of the Lyrans.
The Lyran Democratic Republic is merely one of 21 Lyran Empire's counties and the only one that rebelled and became neutral.
But the problem with this kind of reasoning is that it's based on Starfleet Battles which is not only non-canon but not even considered to be Star Trek by its own creators (Amarillo Design Buerau).
It's set in its own seperate universe so there is actually no "common canon".
And telepaths. :P can't forget those... actually telepathic cats is one of the oddities with Kzin, that makes them different from the other cat-races in Sci-fi.
In that case I'd have to ask what happened to the rest of the Lyrans.
The Lyran Democratic Republic is merely one of 21 Lyran Empire's counties and the only one that rebelled and became neutral.
But the problem with this kind of reasoning is that it's based on Starfleet Battles which is not only non-canon but not even considered to be Star Trek by its own creators (Amarillo Design Buerau).
It's set in its own seperate universe so there is actually no "common canon".
Too bad the Hydran are non canon to as they would make a interesting species to have in STO. Lyrans to I guess as they were allied with the KDF against the Hydran.
And telepaths. :P can't forget those... actually telepathic cats is one of the oddities with Kzin, that makes them different from the other cat-races in Sci-fi.
Yeah and the Ferasans in STO have the trait 'telephatic' availible for us to select if we want, while the Caitians don't have this availible. I always considered it to be another nod in the direction of the Kzin.
Too bad the Hydran are non canon to as they would make a interesting species to have in STO. Lyrans to I guess as they were allied with the KDF against the Hydran.
Yeah, it's a real shame some parts from other licensed works can't be used.
But given how different the storylines from Star Fleet Battles, FASA's RPG and canon Trek are it's probably healthier. Otherwise our heads would explode from trying to make sense of it all.:eek:
But I'd love to see the Hydran homeworld, according to the "Prime Directive" RPG it's class S: "frozen methane oceans with floating continents".:cool:
It's interesting to note that while the Lyrans and Kzintis in SFB probably have a common ancestry they're visually different. The Lyran resembly lynx while the Kzintis look more like tigers.
The SFB Kzinti are also enemies of the Klingons and Klingons will never surrender to them as they tend to eat their prisoners.:P
One funny thing from Starfleet Command is that it was not allowed to call the Kzinti from SFB Kzinti (even though their ships and stats are identical) so they were renamed from Kzinti to Mirak and turned into dogs. There's actually a wolf-like species in SFB, called the Carnivons genetically related to the Lyrans and Kzintis...or rather there was until the Lyrans and Kzintis agreed to work together for once...
Comments
Archer absolutely loathed that he had to resort to an act of piracy to complete his mission. It's not something he did just because it was convenient. THAT is why that episode worked. It's not "moral relativism". It's a matter of making a seemingly impossible choice.
Anyways, back to discussing the KDF....
Klingons are obviously the main "Honorable warrior" types.
Gorn fall into that category to a large extent, though Gorn don't prize honor the way Klingons do.
Letheans... no idea.
Nausicaans are warriors, but a bit shifty and not particularly honorable.
Orions.... will shoot you in the back just as often as they'll fight honorably.
My character Tsin'xing
My issues with ENT is Archer behaving like a homeless guy in space when Berman and Braga were in charge.
And back to the KDF: What little we know of the Ferasans is that they also have a code of honor (no, not that one, forget that episode!) and that honor requires loyalty to the Ferasan people which if broken makes a person or clan "unforgiven" and thus enemies of the state. So I would say they're not so different than the Klingons.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Haha some sig worthy material here^^^^
[/SIGPIC]
Actually I wouldn't be surprised if much of the trade was being taken over by Orions. These are areas I see the Orions dominating, merchants, criminal industries, medicine (ever notice how the doctors in the KDF are usually Orions including in your ship interior), Entertainment, Bar Tending, Klingon Intelligence, certain Diplomatic postings, and so on.
My character Tsin'xing
what makes me really shake my head though is that I find it interesting that people give the shows a free pass multiple times, or whenever they get stupid "writers brain TRIBBLE" gosh there were a lot of those. But rail against STO when it's own storylines don't always line up and some things have to be explained with headcanon... just like the shows.
really terrible 'fans.'
With all due respect, things are a bit different regarding that. As one other player - stoleviathan99 once said while discussing a similar topic - stupid or so called by me 'brain TRIBBLE' episodes happen, but you only watch it once for about 45mins and that's it. You know it sucks, so you don't have to watch it ever again. Like for example me - I always skip all DS9 mirror episodes because I find them crappy. But in STO, when a 'brain TRIBBLE' occurs, it's not a single episode - you're pretty much stuck with it for an entire season or throughout the game's entire lifespan. That's the difference right there. The team behind STO should focus draining content ideas and concepts from the quality episodes in Trek, not the 'brain TRIBBLE' ones.
And do step down from your high-horse for a minute. You're telling me that the missing storylines for the KDF in terms of how the alliance came to be is like, cool? And we're terrible fans to ask for some story content that explains it?
We need the storyline to both back it up and to explain to old and new players alike why we go from war to peace so quickly so the STO question of why we are warring is answered.
R.I.P
J'mpok declared war because he saw that as the best way to halt the spread of Undine infiltrators. That hasn't been resolved to his satisfaction, thus the state of war continues.
And like the Omega force guy says.... stopping the Borg is more important than fighting with the Feds over what to do about the Undine.
My character Tsin'xing
"Blackmail" is such a ... dirty word. I prefer the term... "Creative Application of Leveraged Influence."
In any case, this is a great place to stretch the storytelling muscles. Just think of all the times Mr. Roddenberry and his minions (due respect!) had to come up with plausible reasons for all the weird stuff that happened to Kirk and HIS ?minions?. (also due respect!).
It seems the vast majority of your most active players (forum regulars) hate the idea... and while that's a small subset of the playerbase, I think it's an important constituency.
THE PLAYERS DO NOT WANT THIS.
That and the whole implied J'empok is an undine thing, its a pretty big point to ignore when the guy running the show may be an infiltrator pushing for war because he seeks to destabilize the KDF and the entire quadrant.
That may be Jmpoks idea. The game doesnt touch it though so the truth is not known by the player. Or he could be a Undine working the destabilization from the klingon angle.
Section 31 believes the Undine have infiltrated to the highest levels of Star Fleet and the UFP, yet they do nothing in story to show how they are fighting it.
We have darned little ingame to explain the war setting that STO is experiencing and no good explanation on why it no longer applies when our characters have reached endgame.
STO needs more than head canon and "because they say so" plot holes.
R.I.P
Oh and the Omega Force guy actually DID spell out part of it.
My character Tsin'xing
You're missing the point. We want to be able to experience that part of the storyline that is currently missing and left unexplained rather than desparately trying to glue togehter scarce lore files and random NPC chat.
With regard to the whole Orion issue, one has to wonder if the Pheromones should have any effect whatsoever on the reptilian races of the Gorn and the Lethean, and the Predator-things that are the Nausicaan. I'm not really sure what a Lizard or Predator thing gets out of a relationship with an Orion, and the biology would be so different I don't think it would work. Perhaps these races, often acting as advisors to Klingons can behave as a stop-gap against such things? We often see Letheans and Nausicaans in particular operating as the elite guard of important Klingon figures. Just a thought.
That being said I'd personally like to see more thought being put into not only the factions of the KDF, but their Ship Interiors, Missions surrounding their factions, and the culture. Its clear the Letheans are both useful and repressed, but I suspect some of them stand out. Nausicaans are well known for having powerful Mercenary units. I figure they're the Swiss Guard or Hessians of their day. Orions keep all the pesky business going, and scratch the Klingon's backs enough to make them think they're in control. Its probably a powderkeg waiting to happen, but not entirely impossible. I've also always said that I foresee this new Empire as something of a response to the growth of the Federation. The Klingons are developing a 'Federation' of their own, and one more in their image, with them in charge. Its not too crazy a notion. Cultures invariably change, and even in the shows the Klingon culture changed, and there were times when the oldtimers would complain about the changes in the shows.
To answer the OP's question, I have tended to try and put my Non Klingons in their own racial ships, or oddball ships. This is why My Gorn tac is probably gonna fly a Monbosh/S'golth. My Gorn Sci flies a Varanus. My Lethean Sci flies the Tholian vessels. Lethean Tac flies a Kar'fi, and Lethean Engineer is tentatively slated for an Obelisk. I tend to keep the Klingon vessels in Klingon hands, excluding BoP which is just a cheap workhorse, but a tried and true one (even if its value has been greatly nerfed with a number of rules changes and the Romulan release).
actually, the Catian are the ones with the sentiant females, not the Ferasan. the breeding program that led to nonsentiant females is what caused the catian diaspora, which is the basis of many different federation Doff missions.
in this case, the Ferasan are the "kzinti hegemony" and still an independant power, while the Catian are the "Lyran Democratic Republic" about a century and a half after being absorbed into the federation.
this is all holdovers from back when Star Trek and Known Space shared common cannon.
So I guess all those female Ferasan PCs, Female Ferasan Boffs, and Female Ferasan Duty officers who are all capable of speech (indeed one of the very rare doffs has a very long and ELOQUENT speech about loyalty to the clans). Sorry. That bit has been retconned.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
My character Tsin'xing
In that case I'd have to ask what happened to the rest of the Lyrans.
The Lyran Democratic Republic is merely one of 21 Lyran Empire's counties and the only one that rebelled and became neutral.
But the problem with this kind of reasoning is that it's based on Starfleet Battles which is not only non-canon but not even considered to be Star Trek by its own creators (Amarillo Design Buerau).
It's set in its own seperate universe so there is actually no "common canon".
My character Tsin'xing
Too bad the Hydran are non canon to as they would make a interesting species to have in STO. Lyrans to I guess as they were allied with the KDF against the Hydran.
Yeah and the Ferasans in STO have the trait 'telephatic' availible for us to select if we want, while the Caitians don't have this availible. I always considered it to be another nod in the direction of the Kzin.
Yeah, it's a real shame some parts from other licensed works can't be used.
But given how different the storylines from Star Fleet Battles, FASA's RPG and canon Trek are it's probably healthier. Otherwise our heads would explode from trying to make sense of it all.:eek:
But I'd love to see the Hydran homeworld, according to the "Prime Directive" RPG it's class S: "frozen methane oceans with floating continents".:cool:
It's interesting to note that while the Lyrans and Kzintis in SFB probably have a common ancestry they're visually different. The Lyran resembly lynx while the Kzintis look more like tigers.
The SFB Kzinti are also enemies of the Klingons and Klingons will never surrender to them as they tend to eat their prisoners.:P
One funny thing from Starfleet Command is that it was not allowed to call the Kzinti from SFB Kzinti (even though their ships and stats are identical) so they were renamed from Kzinti to Mirak and turned into dogs. There's actually a wolf-like species in SFB, called the Carnivons genetically related to the Lyrans and Kzintis...or rather there was until the Lyrans and Kzintis agreed to work together for once...