I did enjoy making my characters in theme fashion. Then they said if any ships are new to the KDF that they would be klingon design and not any of the other races that are pretty much absorbed. Pretty much these absorbed races have seats on the high council but were never given any right to vote. That was the original story line when I started 3 years ago but seems like the games history of what it started from is being re-written instead of adding new content to further the kdf specific story line(example worf being allowed in the great hall when cryptic had stated in story that j'mpok had banned him from it so now in this revamped story they are jolly buddies).
The social classing though was in enterprise explaining basically the klingon history between the fek'ihr being overthrown to a class society to the enterprise era where the non-warrior class was being casted out to finally the TOS-ds9/voy-(ingame canon). We did have a few ppl who discussed this years ago in the game when it was discussed as far as classes and how we in the KDF just got cookie cutter of everything that was fed based. So out class only skills like sensor scan, alpha, rotate shield mod, etc are all things we would expect on a federation game of course but not one that is trying to give immersion of the Klingon Empire. I would love to hear Cryptic though explain where the eng and sci aspect of those type of officers actually comes from since all you see or know is basically here is your ship go kill the enemy. If they were to try to take the KDF further I would recommend making the KDF a profession based system rather than a class since we indeed have no class system in the empire.
I have no problem with the Voth and their warbeast. It is quite an effective way to terrorize your opponent. And if you have the technology, why not?
Which Ent-era ship are you talking about? There are two in game; one of them is tier 1, the other is hardly used because it is NOT all the viable. The D'kyr Class is a similar design as the one seen in Enterprise, but that does NOT mean they are the same hulls. THey could have been reusing the old blueprints and simply updating the technology as they went along.
The Romulan people kinda had a change of heart after their homeworlds were destroyed. Most of the civilians left the Tal Shiar's control and just want to be by themselves. The old school Romulans that you want are still out there. They are the Tal Shiar that are actively trying to overthrow and disprove the current Romulan Republic, and you know, reclaim their territory and go back to conquering people. D'tan and the rest of the Romulan Republic want to live their lives in peace. The entire Romulan reputation is filled with "turn over a new leaf" and "trying to live in peace with the Galaxy" motifs.
The "petting epohhs" part, while annoying and slightly demeaning, IS part of the "building homes for their homeless people" part. They have a planet. Now they have to study it, learn about it, and cultivate it. Part of that is tagging and studying the wildlife.
As for the Iconian gate, all the Romulan failsafes were there. It was a feedback from the Iconian end that caused the gate to malfunction in the first place. It was an Iconian failsafe into the Gate system that they built so that their master plan would not be spoiled by anyone snooping around their realm. While, yes, they were bit rash in activating it right off the bat, they had the right to. In much the same way that America had the right to build the Atomic bomb. It was on their sovereign soil; all Worf could do was seriously advise them.
And the Romulans had every reason to WANT to activate the gate. It would put New Romulus on the star charts and bring thousands of ships their for study, trade, commerce, etc. It would be lifeblood into the new world and allow the Romulans to step up to the galactic stage again. It is very much like how the Bajorans, back in the 2370's, staked claim to the Wormhole there. Thus putting Bajor on the star charts and bringing in loads of explorers, scientists, and commerce into their backwater system.
Any questions?
No questions, just a statement.
None of that fits the theme of the Star Trek IP.
It may suit the bastardization of the IP in STO, but not proper Star Trek itself.
With regards to the Ferasans, if you assume they're really the Kzinti (from the Animated Series) then they have every reason to side with the Empire. Earth has essentially disenfranchised them as a space power.
IMO the issue is not the Klingon / Orion / Gorn / Nausicaan alliance - as far as the backstory goes this makes a reasonable amount of sense for the reasons that omegaphallic describes. And while the Orions may not be a massive power, they are still far stronger than the minor conquests that make up most of the Empire.
The real problem in background terms is how the KDF has got so integrated, so quickly - the Gorn war is barely a decade ago, and yet it is now normal for ships to have wholly mixed crews (look at the IKS Bortas) at all ranks, as well as (as the OP notes) non-Klingons commanding cutting edge ships. It has taken the Federation over 200 years to get that far (even in the TOS era, single-species ships seemed to be the norm).
If the game was "realistic", you would have distinct Gorn, Nausicaan, Orion and Klingon ships with a few specialists / liaison officers from other races onboard - much like the Enterprise onscreen in its various incarnations. This is the approach I've gone for on my ships, anyway.
With regards to the Ferasans, if you assume they're really the Kzinti (from the Animated Series) then they have every reason to side with the Empire. Earth has essentially disenfranchised them as a space power.
IMO the issue is not the Klingon / Orion / Gorn / Nausicaan alliance - as far as the backstory goes this makes a reasonable amount of sense for the reasons that omegaphallic describes. And while the Orions may not be a massive power, they are still far stronger than the minor conquests that make up most of the Empire.
The real problem in background terms is how the KDF has got so integrated, so quickly - the Gorn war is barely a decade ago, and yet it is now normal for ships to have wholly mixed crews (look at the IKS Bortas) at all ranks, as well as (as the OP notes) non-Klingons commanding cutting edge ships. It has taken the Federation over 200 years to get that far (even in the TOS era, single-species ships seemed to be the norm).
If the game was "realistic", you would have distinct Gorn, Nausicaan, Orion and Klingon ships with a few specialists / liaison officers from other races onboard - much like the Enterprise onscreen in its various incarnations. This is the approach I've gone for on my ships, anyway.
If I recall correctly, the siege of Gornar ended with the King personally fighting J'mpok and losing but J'mpok, instead of killing him, offered him a seat on the High Council for his Honor. And since the KDF revamp S'taass is no longer a revolutionary. Best as I can tell, the Gorn have integrated well simply because Klingons don't have Scientists (or at least ones that get any respect) and the Gorn seems Sci-heavy as a race. Plus they held off the Klingons for over year during the seige of their homeworld, only failing due to a Shield malfuction. That has GOT to have impressed the Klinks.
The Nausicaans and the Letheans were absorbed as an F-U to getting hired by the Gorn during the Siege, so I can see them being lesser races in the faction.
The Orions negotiated their way in and yes the delivery of those slave women makes D'ian a Woman-Behind-The-Man type. However, I also see that many many MANY of those slave girls got assigned to starship duty eventually. The most we see of the syndicate implies they're working with the House of Torg and the Tal Shiar, so whatever the story is there, we don't know it yet and I want to see how Cryptic writes out of this hole.
The Ferasans: The fact that the Ferasan NPCs seem to be members of the Honor Guard and the Doff Chain implies the KDF is actively pursuing diplomacy with them seems to indicate some favoritism towards them on the Klingon High Council. I remember one of Councilor Woldan's bodyguards during the Khitomer Conference in the Romulan Storyline being a Ferasan. And while the Ferasans are clearly Expies of the Kzinti, I like them better, because they have sentient females, an interest in genetic engineering and interesting designs. They're like if the Romulans met Khan and the Augments in cat form.
Also remember that at one time only noble Klingons could be officers, that changed and opened up doors for people like Martok.
So this is a natural step in the evolution of the Empire given the events that have unfolded in STO.
Actually that was always possible. The reason Martok was not allowed was simply because Kor felt like being a jerk that day...without giving an actual reason and the was the only member of the ovesight commitee who (in a manner of speaking) pointed his thumb to the round.
My question though is or has there been any proof that the Orion pheromones effect Klingons?
I don't think so, the only thing we know is that the Klingon chancellor at the time of "Enterprise" really enjoyed his negotiations with Orion females, but that only proves they're skilled not that their pheromones had anything to do with it.:P
Hey, ofcourse a "pro-think" attitude is better then staying indifferent, that's why I mentioned your discussion to be rather interesting in my previous post.
The thing is, you're discussing how and why the Orions came to be allies with the Klingon Empire and wheather someone is under someone else's influence in a scenario created by someone who didn't even put the amount of thought into it that you guys have put here in this thread. They just picked up popular species in Star Trek that are not affiliated with the Federation and put them in the KDF in order the faction to have more species choices.
That's why today we only have blurry ideas and speculations as to why are the Gorn treated like equals, why are the Orions allied to the KDF, why does the Empire allign themselves with Nausicaan clans, what's up with the Letheans and where the hell did the Trill and Ferasan come from? The whole concept is not well thought through at all.
And if we go about this from the raw logical perspective - there's no chance in Gre'thor the Empire would give subjugated species their authonomy, no chance in Gre'thor that the honorable Empire would allign themselves with the most renown criminal syndicate in known space, nor there is a chance in Gre'thor they'll be alligning themselves and giving equal citizen status to some Nausicaan pirates that happened to fly around Klingon space.
Okay, then it was a misunderstanding on my. My aplogies.
Anyway with regards to the Gorn I think there are two major differences between them and others, though the second may sound more like a technicality:
1.) They fought a war for so long and so fantically it made the Klingons stop and think how good they were at it. It's especially different from the Cardassians which the Klingons essentially ROFLstomped in less than a week.
2.) The Klingons fought the Gorn but the conflict was not actually with them but with the Undine so the entirety of the Gorn people and their military was basically just in the way.
With regards to the Nausicaans, I remember from "The Path to 2409" that the Nausicaans the Klingons are allied with are those clans that had actually supported the Gorn in their war with the Klingons. So it's not a bunch of guys scooting around in Klingon space that just happens to be allied with them. It's essentially another party from the Klingon-Gorn War.
With the Orions, the problem is that there's not enough there yet to really understand the motivations behind it entirely, that much is indeed true.
*EDIT: We do know the Klingons and Orions have had trade relations of some sort at least since the 22nd century, so there's some sort of connection there but it's not explored in canon material./*
As far as the plan the DEVs have is concerned, my personal feeling is that there's a big, really big difference between what the actualy plan looks like and how it's executed.
It's executed blindfolded and tied to a pole most of the time. For example in the old forums Heretic told us they had already figured out where the missing parts of the Klingon Empire were and where the Gorn and Syndicate-controlled territory is located in relation to that.
We also see with recent KDF-only missions that the STO team can do missions and storyline properly if they want to. There are indeed people with a plan there. But in a stark contrast to that stands a lot of executive meddling and people whose approach to the story can be summed up with "Dinos with lazzors on their heads and no arguing on that!" So the the plan that's actually there, has to take a backseat.
I did enjoy making my characters in theme fashion. Then they said if any ships are new to the KDF that they would be klingon design and not any of the other races that are pretty much absorbed. Pretty much these absorbed races have seats on the high council but were never given any right to vote. That was the original story line when I started 3 years ago but seems like the games history of what it started from is being re-written instead of adding new content to further the kdf specific story line(example worf being allowed in the great hall when cryptic had stated in story that j'mpok had banned him from it so now in this revamped story they are jolly buddies).
From what I know in the STO lore, I think that only the Gorn have a non-voting seat in the High Council and the others are not mentioned. I might be wrong though, it has been quite a while since I tangled with those materials.
With regards to the Ferasans, if you assume they're really the Kzinti (from the Animated Series) then they have every reason to side with the Empire. Earth has essentially disenfranchised them as a space power.
It's not about assumption, I believe it has been confirmed that the Ferasan are intended to be the Kzinti, but Cryptic couldn't use the name due to legal issues. Don't ask me for quote or link cause it has been a long time and I have no idea of how to find it, but it has been said here on the forum.
The real problem in background terms is how the KDF has got so integrated, so quickly - the Gorn war is barely a decade ago, and yet it is now normal for ships to have wholly mixed crews (look at the IKS Bortas) at all ranks, as well as (as the OP notes) non-Klingons commanding cutting edge ships. It has taken the Federation over 200 years to get that far (even in the TOS era, single-species ships seemed to be the norm).
If the game was "realistic", you would have distinct Gorn, Nausicaan, Orion and Klingon ships with a few specialists / liaison officers from other races onboard - much like the Enterprise onscreen in its various incarnations. This is the approach I've gone for on my ships, anyway.
IMHO this is not the largest issue per say, although you do make a valid point here. However, since we're stuck in perpetual 2409 for 4 years now and looking at it from a gaming perspective - I supose it's ok that if they decided to implement the KDF as a 'red alliance' rather than a pure Klignon Empire like in other Star Trek games, that cooperation between members of said alliance would be essential. Cause the game can't wait for 100 of years for those species to integrate.
The issue is that this grey area has never been covered with something substantial in the game. The most we know is the Gorn-Klingon war and that is entirely based on reading texts of lore in the Academy, or STO Wiki if you prefer.
I do like your view on the racial ships and liason officers, something like that would make much more sense in the Star Trek IP and considering what has been going on the past 10 years (in game), but that would require much much more fleshed out lineups of racial ships and since the KDF (untill now, I hope this is changing) has been getting a ship once in a blue moon....well....you get my point...
Okay, then it was a misunderstanding on my. My aplogies.
Anyway with regards to the Gorn I think there are two major differences between them and others, though the second may sound more like a technicality:
No worries. After re-reading it, I see that I might have sounded a bit like a prick without any intention to do so. I came out as trying to 'tutor' you guys, when in fact that was totally not the idea. Sorry if I came out sounding like that.
1.) They fought a war for so long and so fantically it made the Klingons stop and think how good they were at it. It's especially different from the Cardassians which the Klingons essentially ROFLstomped in less than a week.
2.) The Klingons fought the Gorn but the conflict was not actually with them but with the Undine so the entirety of the Gorn people and their military was basically just in the way.
I can agree with this, though I personally doubt that the Klingons, especially under a leader like J'mpok would give up total domination over a species they essentially already submissed and conqered. Even if the Undine were the main reason, the conquest is after all - a conquest. But I grant that in some weird circumistances, like the ones in STO, it's not completely impossible.
With regards to the Nausicaans, I remember from "The Path to 2409" that the Nausicaans the Klingons are allied with are those clans that had actually supported the Gorn in their war with the Klingons. So it's not a bunch of guys scooting around in Klingon space that just happens to be allied with them. It's essentially another party from the Klingon-Gorn War.
This is true, these are those Nausicaans. I described them that way because I wanted to underline their insignificance as a major power in the current constellation of powers in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants. And because they're mercenaries after all. They fought for the Gorn because they were hired, not out of principle. Also because the Nausicaans you encounter on Qo'noS don't seem to take the Empire very seriously, they're more like "meh, I lost the entire Klingon Space for raiding, but at least when Starfleet comes after me for raiding Federation lines I can hide behind the Klingons". I have my serious doubts that in canon Star Trek lore that the Klingons would allign themselves with the likes of those.
Also because my Nausicaan is one hell of a pirate SOB that only looks after his behind. :P
With the Orions, the problem is that there's not enough there yet to really understand the motivations behind it entirely, that much is indeed true.
*EDIT: We do know the Klingons and Orions have had trade relations of some sort at least since the 22nd century, so there's some sort of connection there but it's not explored in canon material./*
Exactly. It's a grey area that has only hints around it and we're suposed to take for granted. That's the issue, lorewise. From the 'History of the Empire' lore, there are hints that Melanie D'ian offered some 'ancient secrets' in exchange for Ter'jas Mor and an alliance with the Klingon Empire, but we never see any proof of those secrets, and info on what they are or any new technology based on them used by the KDF. It's just a blank area.
As far as the plan the DEVs have is concerned, my personal feeling is that there's a big, really big difference between what the actualy plan looks like and how it's executed.
It's executed blindfolded and tied to a pole most of the time. For example in the old forums Heretic told us they had already figured out where the missing parts of the Klingon Empire were and where the Gorn and Syndicate-controlled territory is located in relation to that.
We also see with recent KDF-only missions that the STO team can do missions and storyline properly if they want to. There are indeed people with a plan there. But in a stark contrast to that stands a lot of executive meddling and people whose approach to the story can be summed up with "Dinos with lazzors on their heads and no arguing on that!" So the the plan that's actually there, has to take a backseat.
Oh, I completely agree. I also believe that the execution here is a far larger issue than the basic idea itself.
But as an individual when I, let's say, read a book that completely sucks or is unfinished - I just say that it's a bad book and the writer is a bad writer that has no idea of what he/she is doing. I'm not going to stop and consider that maybe this is not what the writer intended to say and that maybe his editor pulled some strings and changed stuff - to me it would be the pure simple fact that I read a book without the proper conslusion or with a mess of chapters that have nothing to do with each other.
My critique was on the final product, not their intention. And the final product in terms of the forming of the 'red alliance' really does look like very little thought went into it. We basically have no idea about anyone else than the Gorn other than a couple of hints spreaded here and there in lore material.
From what I know in the STO lore, I think that only the Gorn have a non-voting seat in the High Council and the others are not mentioned. I might be wrong though, it has been quite a while since I tangled with those materials.
You are correct, only Gorn got non-voting seat, no one else is mentioned - probably because only Gorn have actual large government directly under Empire jurisdiction - Syndicate is criminal organization with single planet (though Meliani holds a great deal of influence anyway), Nausicaans are bunch of raider/pirate clans without any central authority, and Ferasans and Letheans are minor races without any great influence.
IMHO this is not the largest issue per say, although you do make a valid point here. However, since we're stuck in perpetual 2409 for 4 years now and looking at it from a gaming perspective - I supose it's ok that if they decided to implement the KDF as a 'red alliance' rather than a pure Klignon Empire like in other Star Trek games, that cooperation between members of said alliance would be essential. Cause the game can't wait for 100 of years for those species to integrate.
Orion, surviving for many millenia, showed very good adaptation skills. Nausicaans are mercs, and therefore have experience in working with other races. Only lethean seen in ST before STO was one mercenary in DS9, so they are probably similar to Nausicaans (mercenary race hired by Klingons to help flush out possible Undine infiltrators with their telepathic abilities). That leaves Ferasans who seem quite similar to klingons in terms of culture - they remind me of Kilrathi from Wing Commander series.
The issue is that this grey area has never been covered with something substantial in the game. The most we know is the Gorn-Klingon war and that is entirely based on reading texts of lore in the Academy, or STO Wiki if you prefer.
I agree that game needs far more lore. It's often hard to choose to play a race that has very little to none background info.
I can agree with this, though I personally doubt that the Klingons, especially under a leader like J'mpok would give up total domination over a species they essentially already submissed and conqered. Even if the Undine were the main reason, the conquest is after all - a conquest. But I grant that in some weird circumistances, like the ones in STO, it's not completely impossible.
I support previously mentioned idea that KDF realized they would have hard time establishing full-scale control of entire Gorn empire. They'd have to completely scrap Gorn military - pretty much outlawing soldier caste and put their own forces and assign ships to patrol newly conquered space and deal with probably far stronger rebellious element. Not to mention all additional administrative sh*tstorm that would have to be taken care of.
This is true, these are those Nausicaans. I described them that way because I wanted to underline their insignificance as a major power in the current constellation of powers in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants. And because they're mercenaries after all. They fought for the Gorn because they were hired, not out of principle. Also because the Nausicaans you encounter on Qo'noS don't seem to take the Empire very seriously, they're more like "meh, I lost the entire Klingon Space for raiding, but at least when Starfleet comes after me for raiding Federation lines I can hide behind the Klingons". I have my serious doubts that in canon Star Trek lore that the Klingons would allign themselves with the likes of those.
Also because my Nausicaan is one hell of a pirate SOB that only looks after his behind. :P
Nausicaans have their uses. Why wouldn't klingons use them as a bait to lure fedballs into traps? Better to risk their ships than your own, and get all the glory for the kill. If Nausicaan scum dies in the process, no big loss. You can get another merc.
Besides, Nausicaans were naturally scattered and therefore inefficient as a major threat. But if good deal of those clans joins together, they might actually pose a threat. In the end, once they started to raid fedside transports in bigger numbers and more organized manner, federation traders had to go so far as to threaten Fed president they'll stop supplying the frontlines unless Starfleet starts protecting them.
Exactly. It's a grey area that has only hints around it and we're suposed to take for granted. That's the issue, lorewise. From the 'History of the Empire' lore, there are hints that Melanie D'ian offered some 'ancient secrets' in exchange for Ter'jas Mor and an alliance with the Klingon Empire, but we never see any proof of those secrets, and info on what they are or any new technology based on them used by the KDF. It's just a blank area.
Maybe info on all that stuff B'Vat was working on to keep the war going - superweapons, genetic manipulation, time travel etc. I can bet she offered to connect him with folks that could provide knowledge and resources for his machinations.
You even save one Orion at the beginning of Klingon War arc that worked for him, that refuses to share any info on B'Vat's plans until she's under protection from SFI.
My critique was on the final product, not their intention. And the final product in terms of the forming of the 'red alliance' really does look like very little thought went into it. We basically have no idea about anyone else than the Gorn other than a couple of hints spreaded here and there in lore material.
I agree with that. There's only so much that can be left to the imagination. We need some proper lore - I see no reason why it couldn't be implemented.
Here is my conclusion. The Klingon Empire is at the stage of its development akin to the Roman Empire at its peak. Its absolutely huge and an administrative nightmare and its only gotten bigger and threatens to get bigger still. The Empire simple does not have the civil servious capable of administering and governing its expanding space, fight new wars on multiple front, fend off rebellians, terrorism from independance movements and so on.
So Jem'pok looks for solutions. The Borg, the Breen, the Tholians, the Dominion, the True Way, the Tal Shiar, and who knows who else. He has enemies on all sides. He can't turn to the Federation, he doesn't trust the Federation, he thinks there pawns of the Undine, another threat, one which has possibly inflitrated his own government. Klingon Intellenge is good, but not good enough.
Then comes Melani D'ian. Already under Chancellor Martok a dialog has been established. Martok saw working closely with the Federation the benifits of cooperating with other races and more to the point he doesn't want an Orion Sydicate Breen Alliance.
So J'mpok recieves Melani D'ian or rather Hassan the Undying posing as the Leader and negiotations, continue. And what Melani D'ian offers is irrestable to a man in J'mpok's predicament. She offers an intelligence, criminal networks far more extensive then his own, one capable of not only keeping an eye on races hard for Klingon Intelligence to keep on eye on like the Tholians, but more importantly it can keep on eye on Undine Inflitrations that have occurred in his own government and Klingon Intelligence.
And it gets better. The Orions have been around a very long time, perhaps as long as races such as the Iconians (speculation on my part) and they know things about portential threats to the Empire that the Klingons don't even know exist yet.
As if that isn't enough of a boon to Klingon Security the Orions have advanced technology, not as much as there people once had, but they've managed to retain or regain enough of extreme value. Remember much of the Federations medical technology comes from the Orions, and that's likely only the tip of the iceberg. Were talking about a race with technology advanced enough to alter many if not most of there woman and skme men into weapons of mass seduction. They have the technology to beam people and equiptment off and onto ships with there shields up from a distance. They don't have everything they used to have but the Orions have suffered a series of disasters and set backs that have forced them into survival mode for along time.
So this offer is just too tempting to resist, the Orions are knoweldge rich, but resource poor.
So J'mpok agrees, setting a presidence. The Orions flow throughout the Empire and the benifits in just about every facet of the Empire's existance become quickly obvious.
Then the war with the Gorn comes and the Orions fight and die with honor, as equals more or less, and honor demands there sacrifice for the Empire be honored with respect.
In time the Empire takes the Gorn Homeworld and J'mpok finds he is faced with choice and threats.
The whole war was enigeered by the Undine who inflitrated the Gorn government.
So here is where J'mpok finds himself. He's just aquired countless worlds, including the Gonar, and its going to take an absolutely massive amount of personal and resources to govern the Gorn and keep them under control, resource to be blunt that he does not have, especially with other enemies at his door.
So could refuse to keep the Gorn, like a sports fisherman tosing his catch back, in the novels its happened before where a species was found to be unworthy of adding to the Empire.
He could over reach and likely doom the Empire. Or he can look at the Success of the Orion experiment and assimilate the Gorn into the Empire as a Vessel State, which vastly increases his resources, personal, military, and radical reduces the expenses of absorbing the Gorn Hemegony into the Empire. After all the Klingons don't care about day to day administeration or governce anyways.
The Empire grows in power imensely.
The Gorn have ties to the Nausicaans, who also earned the respect of the Klingons on the battlefield, and King Slathis uses his new found influence in the Empire to bring his Nausicaan friends and allies into the Empire. At this point things have changed enough the doors start opening for other races, like the Trill and Leathans.
If one reads the Ferasan Duty Officer assignments, one realizes that the Klingons are actively pursuing the Ferasan's to join the Empire diplomatically instead of via conquest. Speculation on my part is the Caitan are inflicting extreme casualies on the Empire and the Klingons wish to neutralize that Federation advantage the Caitans extreme agility and natural weapons gives them in ground combat.
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Yeah, this is pretty close to the way I see it. There are two main differences.
1: The Gorn surrendered. Most people don't see this as a diplomatic treaty, but in many real world cases it is. It's clear that at least one of the terms of the treaty is that the Gorn are now members of the KDF, and have to do what the council says. But why have them as part of the Klingon military? Why have Gorn as ambassadors of the KDF? Perhaps the treaty was negotiated as a way to avoid a fight to the death? It's clear from the material we have that the war between Klingons and Gorn was not short. The Gorn surrendered after it became clear that they couldn't win. Perhaps the KDF agreed to an unusual arrangement simply to avoid weakening the Empire? It seems that the KDF did in fact, NOT subjugate the Gorn. It seems that what they actually did was to forced the Gorn into signing an alliance treaty.
2: the Nausicaans also signed a treaty. As allies of the Gorn during the Gorn-Klingon war, they were also at war with the KDF. But they don't seem to have had as strong of stipulations in the treaty they signed at the end of the war. this is probably because the Klingons weren't really attacking them.
This clip suggests that the Klingons, sans a few conservatives, are pretty acceptant of anyone so long as they embrace Klingon cultures, traditions, etc. I'd guess as long as someone remains loyal to the KDF and plays that honor and warrior mentality shtick up, they're probably treated as 'honorary Klingons' by most.
Or OP just used her Orion seduction to get the ship she wanted. =p
This clip suggests that the Klingons, sans a few conservatives, are pretty acceptant of anyone so long as they embrace Klingon cultures, traditions, etc. I'd guess as long as someone remains loyal to the KDF and plays that honor and warrior mentality shtick up, they're probably treated as 'honorary Klingons' by most.
Or OP just used her Orion seduction to get the ship she wanted. =p
I recall reading somewhere that Klingon males are very susceptible to Orion pheromones, to the point where an exposure can actually kill them due to some hyper reaction (not unlike a severe peanut allergy killing some people without treatment).
So potentially, she may well have done just that!
I'll have to look that one up..
EDIT
I gave it a quick look on memory beta and apparently I must have read it in an old TOS novel called "The final reflection".
A Klingon male could experience a pheromonal shock due to the rush of hormones; allegedly, this could potentially be deadly for a young male.[21] This made Klingons especially susceptible to an Orion woman's influence.[22]
Oh dear, have you looked up the source for it?;)
It's number 22, an old FASA RPG sourcebook.
LOL, the old FASA material is so at odds with later materials it's practically useless.
Don't misunderstand, a lot of it is a good read and in many respects it's a lot more interesting than "Enterprise" for example, but it's still useless.
It uses a different calender (Star Trek 1 happens in 2217) and timeline.
It even has its own explanation for the Klingon ridges thing: whenever they encounter a new enemy, Klingons (the ones with the ridges) use genetic materials from the enemy species to create "fusions" who are more capable of understanding the psychology of the enemy.
So Kang, Kor and Koloth are genetic constructs created and designed to fight humans. The Klingons also created Klingon-Romulan fusions to fight them on their respective border.
As I recall the life expectancy of a normal Klingon is around 50 (without combat attrition mind you) because they burn out faster.
The story of Kahless is totally different too, he was a powerful warlord and starship commander who conquered a lot of different worlds and thus became emperor.
What I'm trying to say is...it's FASA, which means it's as close to fan-fiction as you can get.:)
The way I had RPed my past Orion captains, as that she is not the captain and one of my boffs is the actual captain. She was merely the 2nd in command.
Though, I of course only ever flew BoPs/Raptors so..
Why do I hate Archer? I don't. Sure beats the pants off of Voyager.
However . . . it's been a long road getting from there to here. It's been a long time, but J.J.'s time is finally here.
And I can feel a change in the wind right now. Nothing's in my way. And they're not gonna
hold me down no more. No, sir - they're not gonna hold me down.
'Cause I've got faith of the heart. I'm going where my heart will take me. I've got faith to believe. I can do anything, even T'Pol. I've got strength of the soul. And no lack of KDF content is going to bend or break me. I can reach any star. I've got . . . I've got . . . I've got faith - Faith of the heart.
All this really demostrates is a huge lack of potiental storylines that remain untapped for the KDF faction.
Absolutely this.
How much influence does Melani Di'an hold over J'mpok?
What's with those Gorn separatists we keep hearing about?
How does the KDF handle criminals in its ranks?
I don't know, and I want to find out!
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
I actually love many of the things ENT did. And yeah Archer > Kirk. :P
As much of a badass I think Kirk was, I agree. Archer was more relatable to more people, and the situations he went through is a lot more humbling, especially in comparison to the possible future with the Ent-J. He was a pioneer, and he and his crew acted like it. Unknowing of what was around the corner, but brave enough to step through.
Kirk & crew were great, but IMO his era felt fundamentally different. And I think that's a good thing~
How much influence does Melani Di'an hold over J'mpok?
Of all the possibilities, this is the most important to me. Why? Because it defines the relationship between the Orions and the rest of the Empire. I personally suspect that the Orions have to a large extent taken over as the Empire's preeminent traders, but.... that's just head canon.
I actually brought this up when I wrote my foundry mission "Diplomacy in the Gamma Quadrant".
The Klingon faction really could use 1-2 more episode arcs that fill in the gaps for Gorn and Orions, and maybe 2-3 featured episodes that deal with the Nausicaans, Letheans, and Ferasans.
Completely off topic, but I'm just wondering why some of you guys are hatin' on Archer?
I thought he did a fine job given the circumistances.
Aside from that pic of mine...which BTW correctly shows the dialogue of that scene in "Fight or Flight"...have you seen "A Night in Sickbay"?
If you haven't, congratulations you haven't wasted 45 minutes watching Archer acting completely insane.:mad:
The episode also establishes the Archer is a trained diplomat. *headdesk*
"Breaking the Ice"? Archer claims the Vulcans are following him around. Makes perfect sense since we never saw a Vulcan ship on the show until that episode...doesn't mean he's paranoid or something.
And even if he isn't and they came a across a Vulcans out there in some missing storylines, he very nearly lets Travis and Malcom die rather than ask the Vulcans for help because that's the sane thing to do, right?
Also watch "Dear Doctor" and "Observer Effect" back to back. Even though they're in different seasons it shows something: when Archer does something, it's right. And another does the same thing on a smaller scale but Archer is on the receiving end, Archer will find it wrong while defending the same thing that he did as right.
For another example of Archer's approach have a look at "Fortunate Son" and "Silent Enemy" back to back, in the former Archer finds the idea of kicking the butt of an enemy who disables a ship and then injures or kills the crew of a defenseless ship appalling. In the latter he does the same.
Aside from that pic of mine...which BTW correctly shows the dialogue of that scene in "Fight or Flight"...have you seen "A Night in Sickbay"?
If you haven't, congratulations you haven't wasted 45 minutes watching Archer acting completely insane.:mad:
The episode also establishes the Archer is a trained diplomat. *headdesk*
"Breaking the Ice"? Archer claims the Vulcans are following him around. Makes perfect sense since we never saw a Vulcan ship on the show until that episode...doesn't mean he's paranoid or something.
And even if he isn't and they came a across a Vulcans out there in some missing storylines, he very nearly lets Travis and Malcom die rather than ask the Vulcans for help because that's the sane thing to do, right?
Also watch "Dear Doctor" and "Observer Effect" back to back. Even though they're in different seasons it shows something: when Archer does something, it's right. And another does the same thing on a smaller scale but Archer is on the receiving end, Archer will find it wrong while defending the same thing that he did as right.
For another example of Archer's approach have a look at "Fortunate Son" and "Silent Enemy" back to back, in the former Archer finds the idea of kicking the butt of an enemy who disables a ship and then injures or kills the crew of a defenseless ship appalling. In the latter he does the same.
Oh believe me, I know ENT. The only Star Trek show I watched more times than ENT is TNG.
So I know all these examples you have mentioned and I just might be weird, but to me that was a part of the charm of the show.
Like orangeitis said, Archer and his crew were pioneers so my observation on their decision making in all these situations is that they were the first to venture in the unknown, deep down inside genuinely scared and still questioning their moral compass, ethical values and beliefs when it comes to 'either us or them' as oposed to the more evolved and calm stance of the crew in the era of TNG.
They were the first official Human Starfleet crew to venture in deep space and on many ocassions I actually liked the way the acted because it showed that transition from the contemporary model of Human (or full on military badass and pwnZ0r Starfleet like quite a number of forum posters here are dying to see Starfleet - unfortuantely) to a more evolved and self-conscious state where they start challenging their views, ethics and moral values in order to estimate the consequence of their actions as representatives of Earth to many alien cultures.
The struggle of deciding what is definitely 'right' or 'wrong' and what can be aplied when and in which situations is something that made the show interesting for me. But again, I just might be weird. :P
I agree, there was a lot of stupid stuff in ENT. But then again, every ST show has had it's fair amount of stupid stuff. I call them "writer's brain TRIBBLE". lol
Completely off topic, but I'm just wondering why some of you guys are hatin' on Archer?
I thought he did a fine job given the circumistances.
One day, I might have to rewatch Enterprise from start to finish and give it a proper view. Voyager surprised me from S4 onwards, so maybe Enterprise will too.
Why do I hate Archer? I don't. Sure beats the pants off of Voyager.
However . . . it's been a long road getting from there to here. It's been a long time, but J.J.'s time is finally here.
And I can feel a change in the wind right now. Nothing's in my way. And they're not gonna
hold me down no more. No, sir - they're not gonna hold me down.
'Cause I've got faith of the heart. I'm going where my heart will take me. I've got faith to believe. I can do anything, even T'Pol. I've got strength of the soul. And no lack of KDF content is going to bend or break me. I can reach any star. I've got . . . I've got . . . I've got faith - Faith of the heart.
Shran For President!!!!
As an aside, I used to hate this song with a passion, but somehow something in my brain clicked and I... I think I like it now.
Comments
The social classing though was in enterprise explaining basically the klingon history between the fek'ihr being overthrown to a class society to the enterprise era where the non-warrior class was being casted out to finally the TOS-ds9/voy-(ingame canon). We did have a few ppl who discussed this years ago in the game when it was discussed as far as classes and how we in the KDF just got cookie cutter of everything that was fed based. So out class only skills like sensor scan, alpha, rotate shield mod, etc are all things we would expect on a federation game of course but not one that is trying to give immersion of the Klingon Empire. I would love to hear Cryptic though explain where the eng and sci aspect of those type of officers actually comes from since all you see or know is basically here is your ship go kill the enemy. If they were to try to take the KDF further I would recommend making the KDF a profession based system rather than a class since we indeed have no class system in the empire.
No questions, just a statement.
None of that fits the theme of the Star Trek IP.
It may suit the bastardization of the IP in STO, but not proper Star Trek itself.
IMO the issue is not the Klingon / Orion / Gorn / Nausicaan alliance - as far as the backstory goes this makes a reasonable amount of sense for the reasons that omegaphallic describes. And while the Orions may not be a massive power, they are still far stronger than the minor conquests that make up most of the Empire.
The real problem in background terms is how the KDF has got so integrated, so quickly - the Gorn war is barely a decade ago, and yet it is now normal for ships to have wholly mixed crews (look at the IKS Bortas) at all ranks, as well as (as the OP notes) non-Klingons commanding cutting edge ships. It has taken the Federation over 200 years to get that far (even in the TOS era, single-species ships seemed to be the norm).
If the game was "realistic", you would have distinct Gorn, Nausicaan, Orion and Klingon ships with a few specialists / liaison officers from other races onboard - much like the Enterprise onscreen in its various incarnations. This is the approach I've gone for on my ships, anyway.
If I recall correctly, the siege of Gornar ended with the King personally fighting J'mpok and losing but J'mpok, instead of killing him, offered him a seat on the High Council for his Honor. And since the KDF revamp S'taass is no longer a revolutionary. Best as I can tell, the Gorn have integrated well simply because Klingons don't have Scientists (or at least ones that get any respect) and the Gorn seems Sci-heavy as a race. Plus they held off the Klingons for over year during the seige of their homeworld, only failing due to a Shield malfuction. That has GOT to have impressed the Klinks.
The Nausicaans and the Letheans were absorbed as an F-U to getting hired by the Gorn during the Siege, so I can see them being lesser races in the faction.
The Orions negotiated their way in and yes the delivery of those slave women makes D'ian a Woman-Behind-The-Man type. However, I also see that many many MANY of those slave girls got assigned to starship duty eventually. The most we see of the syndicate implies they're working with the House of Torg and the Tal Shiar, so whatever the story is there, we don't know it yet and I want to see how Cryptic writes out of this hole.
The Ferasans: The fact that the Ferasan NPCs seem to be members of the Honor Guard and the Doff Chain implies the KDF is actively pursuing diplomacy with them seems to indicate some favoritism towards them on the Klingon High Council. I remember one of Councilor Woldan's bodyguards during the Khitomer Conference in the Romulan Storyline being a Ferasan. And while the Ferasans are clearly Expies of the Kzinti, I like them better, because they have sentient females, an interest in genetic engineering and interesting designs. They're like if the Romulans met Khan and the Augments in cat form.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Actually that was always possible. The reason Martok was not allowed was simply because Kor felt like being a jerk that day...without giving an actual reason and the was the only member of the ovesight commitee who (in a manner of speaking) pointed his thumb to the round.
I don't think so, the only thing we know is that the Klingon chancellor at the time of "Enterprise" really enjoyed his negotiations with Orion females, but that only proves they're skilled not that their pheromones had anything to do with it.:P
Okay, then it was a misunderstanding on my. My aplogies.
Anyway with regards to the Gorn I think there are two major differences between them and others, though the second may sound more like a technicality:
1.) They fought a war for so long and so fantically it made the Klingons stop and think how good they were at it. It's especially different from the Cardassians which the Klingons essentially ROFLstomped in less than a week.
2.) The Klingons fought the Gorn but the conflict was not actually with them but with the Undine so the entirety of the Gorn people and their military was basically just in the way.
With regards to the Nausicaans, I remember from "The Path to 2409" that the Nausicaans the Klingons are allied with are those clans that had actually supported the Gorn in their war with the Klingons. So it's not a bunch of guys scooting around in Klingon space that just happens to be allied with them. It's essentially another party from the Klingon-Gorn War.
With the Orions, the problem is that there's not enough there yet to really understand the motivations behind it entirely, that much is indeed true.
*EDIT: We do know the Klingons and Orions have had trade relations of some sort at least since the 22nd century, so there's some sort of connection there but it's not explored in canon material./*
As far as the plan the DEVs have is concerned, my personal feeling is that there's a big, really big difference between what the actualy plan looks like and how it's executed.
It's executed blindfolded and tied to a pole most of the time. For example in the old forums Heretic told us they had already figured out where the missing parts of the Klingon Empire were and where the Gorn and Syndicate-controlled territory is located in relation to that.
We also see with recent KDF-only missions that the STO team can do missions and storyline properly if they want to. There are indeed people with a plan there. But in a stark contrast to that stands a lot of executive meddling and people whose approach to the story can be summed up with "Dinos with lazzors on their heads and no arguing on that!" So the the plan that's actually there, has to take a backseat.
From what I know in the STO lore, I think that only the Gorn have a non-voting seat in the High Council and the others are not mentioned. I might be wrong though, it has been quite a while since I tangled with those materials.
It's not about assumption, I believe it has been confirmed that the Ferasan are intended to be the Kzinti, but Cryptic couldn't use the name due to legal issues. Don't ask me for quote or link cause it has been a long time and I have no idea of how to find it, but it has been said here on the forum.
IMHO this is not the largest issue per say, although you do make a valid point here. However, since we're stuck in perpetual 2409 for 4 years now and looking at it from a gaming perspective - I supose it's ok that if they decided to implement the KDF as a 'red alliance' rather than a pure Klignon Empire like in other Star Trek games, that cooperation between members of said alliance would be essential. Cause the game can't wait for 100 of years for those species to integrate.
The issue is that this grey area has never been covered with something substantial in the game. The most we know is the Gorn-Klingon war and that is entirely based on reading texts of lore in the Academy, or STO Wiki if you prefer.
I do like your view on the racial ships and liason officers, something like that would make much more sense in the Star Trek IP and considering what has been going on the past 10 years (in game), but that would require much much more fleshed out lineups of racial ships and since the KDF (untill now, I hope this is changing) has been getting a ship once in a blue moon....well....you get my point...
No worries. After re-reading it, I see that I might have sounded a bit like a prick without any intention to do so.
I can agree with this, though I personally doubt that the Klingons, especially under a leader like J'mpok would give up total domination over a species they essentially already submissed and conqered. Even if the Undine were the main reason, the conquest is after all - a conquest. But I grant that in some weird circumistances, like the ones in STO, it's not completely impossible.
This is true, these are those Nausicaans. I described them that way because I wanted to underline their insignificance as a major power in the current constellation of powers in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants. And because they're mercenaries after all. They fought for the Gorn because they were hired, not out of principle. Also because the Nausicaans you encounter on Qo'noS don't seem to take the Empire very seriously, they're more like "meh, I lost the entire Klingon Space for raiding, but at least when Starfleet comes after me for raiding Federation lines I can hide behind the Klingons". I have my serious doubts that in canon Star Trek lore that the Klingons would allign themselves with the likes of those.
Also because my Nausicaan is one hell of a pirate SOB that only looks after his behind. :P
Exactly. It's a grey area that has only hints around it and we're suposed to take for granted. That's the issue, lorewise. From the 'History of the Empire' lore, there are hints that Melanie D'ian offered some 'ancient secrets' in exchange for Ter'jas Mor and an alliance with the Klingon Empire, but we never see any proof of those secrets, and info on what they are or any new technology based on them used by the KDF. It's just a blank area.
Oh, I completely agree. I also believe that the execution here is a far larger issue than the basic idea itself.
But as an individual when I, let's say, read a book that completely sucks or is unfinished - I just say that it's a bad book and the writer is a bad writer that has no idea of what he/she is doing. I'm not going to stop and consider that maybe this is not what the writer intended to say and that maybe his editor pulled some strings and changed stuff - to me it would be the pure simple fact that I read a book without the proper conslusion or with a mess of chapters that have nothing to do with each other.
My critique was on the final product, not their intention. And the final product in terms of the forming of the 'red alliance' really does look like very little thought went into it. We basically have no idea about anyone else than the Gorn other than a couple of hints spreaded here and there in lore material.
You are correct, only Gorn got non-voting seat, no one else is mentioned - probably because only Gorn have actual large government directly under Empire jurisdiction - Syndicate is criminal organization with single planet (though Meliani holds a great deal of influence anyway), Nausicaans are bunch of raider/pirate clans without any central authority, and Ferasans and Letheans are minor races without any great influence.
Orion, surviving for many millenia, showed very good adaptation skills. Nausicaans are mercs, and therefore have experience in working with other races. Only lethean seen in ST before STO was one mercenary in DS9, so they are probably similar to Nausicaans (mercenary race hired by Klingons to help flush out possible Undine infiltrators with their telepathic abilities). That leaves Ferasans who seem quite similar to klingons in terms of culture - they remind me of Kilrathi from Wing Commander series.
I agree that game needs far more lore. It's often hard to choose to play a race that has very little to none background info.
I support previously mentioned idea that KDF realized they would have hard time establishing full-scale control of entire Gorn empire. They'd have to completely scrap Gorn military - pretty much outlawing soldier caste and put their own forces and assign ships to patrol newly conquered space and deal with probably far stronger rebellious element. Not to mention all additional administrative sh*tstorm that would have to be taken care of.
Nausicaans have their uses. Why wouldn't klingons use them as a bait to lure fedballs into traps? Better to risk their ships than your own, and get all the glory for the kill. If Nausicaan scum dies in the process, no big loss. You can get another merc.
Besides, Nausicaans were naturally scattered and therefore inefficient as a major threat. But if good deal of those clans joins together, they might actually pose a threat. In the end, once they started to raid fedside transports in bigger numbers and more organized manner, federation traders had to go so far as to threaten Fed president they'll stop supplying the frontlines unless Starfleet starts protecting them.
Maybe info on all that stuff B'Vat was working on to keep the war going - superweapons, genetic manipulation, time travel etc. I can bet she offered to connect him with folks that could provide knowledge and resources for his machinations.
You even save one Orion at the beginning of Klingon War arc that worked for him, that refuses to share any info on B'Vat's plans until she's under protection from SFI.
I agree with that. There's only so much that can be left to the imagination. We need some proper lore - I see no reason why it couldn't be implemented.
1: The Gorn surrendered. Most people don't see this as a diplomatic treaty, but in many real world cases it is. It's clear that at least one of the terms of the treaty is that the Gorn are now members of the KDF, and have to do what the council says. But why have them as part of the Klingon military? Why have Gorn as ambassadors of the KDF? Perhaps the treaty was negotiated as a way to avoid a fight to the death? It's clear from the material we have that the war between Klingons and Gorn was not short. The Gorn surrendered after it became clear that they couldn't win. Perhaps the KDF agreed to an unusual arrangement simply to avoid weakening the Empire? It seems that the KDF did in fact, NOT subjugate the Gorn. It seems that what they actually did was to forced the Gorn into signing an alliance treaty.
2: the Nausicaans also signed a treaty. As allies of the Gorn during the Gorn-Klingon war, they were also at war with the KDF. But they don't seem to have had as strong of stipulations in the treaty they signed at the end of the war. this is probably because the Klingons weren't really attacking them.
My character Tsin'xing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE4eW0fJyp4
This clip suggests that the Klingons, sans a few conservatives, are pretty acceptant of anyone so long as they embrace Klingon cultures, traditions, etc. I'd guess as long as someone remains loyal to the KDF and plays that honor and warrior mentality shtick up, they're probably treated as 'honorary Klingons' by most.
Or OP just used her Orion seduction to get the ship she wanted. =p
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My character Tsin'xing
I recall reading somewhere that Klingon males are very susceptible to Orion pheromones, to the point where an exposure can actually kill them due to some hyper reaction (not unlike a severe peanut allergy killing some people without treatment).
So potentially, she may well have done just that!
I'll have to look that one up..
EDIT
I gave it a quick look on memory beta and apparently I must have read it in an old TOS novel called "The final reflection".
I just took that quote verbatim from http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Orion from the "pheromones" section.
Oh dear, have you looked up the source for it?;)
It's number 22, an old FASA RPG sourcebook.
LOL, the old FASA material is so at odds with later materials it's practically useless.
Don't misunderstand, a lot of it is a good read and in many respects it's a lot more interesting than "Enterprise" for example, but it's still useless.
It uses a different calender (Star Trek 1 happens in 2217) and timeline.
It even has its own explanation for the Klingon ridges thing: whenever they encounter a new enemy, Klingons (the ones with the ridges) use genetic materials from the enemy species to create "fusions" who are more capable of understanding the psychology of the enemy.
So Kang, Kor and Koloth are genetic constructs created and designed to fight humans. The Klingons also created Klingon-Romulan fusions to fight them on their respective border.
http://www.klingon-empire.org/photopost/data/506/medium/Klingons.png
As I recall the life expectancy of a normal Klingon is around 50 (without combat attrition mind you) because they burn out faster.
The story of Kahless is totally different too, he was a powerful warlord and starship commander who conquered a lot of different worlds and thus became emperor.
What I'm trying to say is...it's FASA, which means it's as close to fan-fiction as you can get.:)
R.I.P
I trust you meant to say that it demonstrates a huge number of potential storylines?
Seems like there's a lot of room to work here, rather than the potential having already been exhausted.
Though, I of course only ever flew BoPs/Raptors so..
"Oh hello! I'm a Chaotic Neutral Ranger Blood Elf of the upper middle lower class-er-***cough*** I mean I'm a FRIGGIN Klingon."
No thanks.
I swear Archer was just some random hobo wearing a tinfoil hat that Starfleet found and made captain because they had nothing.
I thought he did a fine job given the circumistances.
However . . . it's been a long road getting from there to here. It's been a long time, but J.J.'s time is finally here.
And I can feel a change in the wind right now. Nothing's in my way. And they're not gonna
hold me down no more. No, sir - they're not gonna hold me down.
'Cause I've got faith of the heart. I'm going where my heart will take me. I've got faith to believe. I can do anything, even T'Pol. I've got strength of the soul. And no lack of KDF content is going to bend or break me. I can reach any star. I've got . . . I've got . . . I've got faith - Faith of the heart.
Shran For President!!!!
My character Tsin'xing
Absolutely this.
How much influence does Melani Di'an hold over J'mpok?
What's with those Gorn separatists we keep hearing about?
How does the KDF handle criminals in its ranks?
I don't know, and I want to find out!
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Kirk & crew were great, but IMO his era felt fundamentally different. And I think that's a good thing~
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I actually brought this up when I wrote my foundry mission "Diplomacy in the Gamma Quadrant".
My character Tsin'xing
Aside from that pic of mine...which BTW correctly shows the dialogue of that scene in "Fight or Flight"...have you seen "A Night in Sickbay"?
If you haven't, congratulations you haven't wasted 45 minutes watching Archer acting completely insane.:mad:
The episode also establishes the Archer is a trained diplomat. *headdesk*
"Breaking the Ice"? Archer claims the Vulcans are following him around. Makes perfect sense since we never saw a Vulcan ship on the show until that episode...doesn't mean he's paranoid or something.
And even if he isn't and they came a across a Vulcans out there in some missing storylines, he very nearly lets Travis and Malcom die rather than ask the Vulcans for help because that's the sane thing to do, right?
Also watch "Dear Doctor" and "Observer Effect" back to back. Even though they're in different seasons it shows something: when Archer does something, it's right. And another does the same thing on a smaller scale but Archer is on the receiving end, Archer will find it wrong while defending the same thing that he did as right.
For another example of Archer's approach have a look at "Fortunate Son" and "Silent Enemy" back to back, in the former Archer finds the idea of kicking the butt of an enemy who disables a ship and then injures or kills the crew of a defenseless ship appalling. In the latter he does the same.
Oh believe me, I know ENT. The only Star Trek show I watched more times than ENT is TNG.
So I know all these examples you have mentioned and I just might be weird, but to me that was a part of the charm of the show.
Like orangeitis said, Archer and his crew were pioneers so my observation on their decision making in all these situations is that they were the first to venture in the unknown, deep down inside genuinely scared and still questioning their moral compass, ethical values and beliefs when it comes to 'either us or them' as oposed to the more evolved and calm stance of the crew in the era of TNG.
They were the first official Human Starfleet crew to venture in deep space and on many ocassions I actually liked the way the acted because it showed that transition from the contemporary model of Human (or full on military badass and pwnZ0r Starfleet like quite a number of forum posters here are dying to see Starfleet - unfortuantely) to a more evolved and self-conscious state where they start challenging their views, ethics and moral values in order to estimate the consequence of their actions as representatives of Earth to many alien cultures.
The struggle of deciding what is definitely 'right' or 'wrong' and what can be aplied when and in which situations is something that made the show interesting for me. But again, I just might be weird. :P
I agree, there was a lot of stupid stuff in ENT. But then again, every ST show has had it's fair amount of stupid stuff. I call them "writer's brain TRIBBLE". lol
As an aside, I used to hate this song with a passion, but somehow something in my brain clicked and I... I think I like it now.