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Social Classing within the Empire
kyeto13
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Not really a "gameplay" feedback question. Just a canon RP tickle my interest question.
I have an Orion Tactical toon... and I have a Mogh Class Battlecruiser...Love playing it. Nice playstyle and very fun to command..
But...
How in the world does an Orion get her hands on the newest battleship the Empire has come out with? Is it possible that she can have that kind of influence within the KDF to commandeer such a vessel? Are Non-Klingons second class citizens within the Empire, or am I misreading something here?
I have an Orion Tactical toon... and I have a Mogh Class Battlecruiser...Love playing it. Nice playstyle and very fun to command..
But...
How in the world does an Orion get her hands on the newest battleship the Empire has come out with? Is it possible that she can have that kind of influence within the KDF to commandeer such a vessel? Are Non-Klingons second class citizens within the Empire, or am I misreading something here?
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With the Gorn for example we know the Klingons defeated them but didn't conquer them but allowed them self rule while they were kept as allies.
With the Orions it's even more murky since they were essentially allowed to found their own state inside Klingon claimed space.
I don't think these are to be considered second-class people. And the KDF itself is probabaly another matter anyway. As you climb though the ranks you've already proven you're a capable warrior worthy of respect. So KDF high command is probably less interested in the colour of your skin but your competence anyway.;)
The Gorn and the Orions seem to be treated better though, with the Orions mini empire inside Klingon space and the Gorn being able to act as official KDF Ambassadors (S'tass)
- The Gorn are conquered by the Klingon Empire, but by decree of the High Council they have been given authonomy under the wing of the Empire. The Gorn even have a non-voting seat in the High Council chamber on Qo'noS. Therefore, they're not treated as second class citizens.
- The Orions have established an alliance with the Klingon Empire. Melanie D'ian looked for a new homeworld for her people and negotiated with the Breen Confederacy and the Klingon Empire. At the end, the negotiations with the Klingon Empire were succesfull and the Syndicate received Ter'jas Mor in exchange of some undefined 'ancient secrets' known by the Orion Syndicate, having the Orions being one of the earliest spacefaring civilizations.
- The Nausicaan clans that decided to negotiate peace with the Klingon Empire (not every Nausicaan is an ally of the Empire, but certain clans) are probably the same ones that were involved in the Gorn-Klingon war. It has been specially underlined that the Nausicaans managed to negotiate not being treated like jeghpu'wl', therefore not being considered conquered people.
Now, these 3 species are clearly considered higher than mere jeghpu'wl', thus not really suprising if an individual earns his/hers place in the KDF on Klingon standards. They are not forbidden to serve and move up the ranks if they fulfill the same demands that apply to any Klingon warrior in the KDF.
Now the Letheans, Ferasan and Joined Trill are a bit more clunky. We don't really know much about them or how they came to be in the KDF and unfortunately noone has bothered to explain it.
From what little pieces I managed to glue together all I know is that:
- The Letheans were looking for an alliance with the Klingon Empire and were eventually accepted, but it has been mentioned that they're being looked down upon in the Empire.
- The Ferasan are suposed to be the Kzinti, but Cryptic didn't have the copyrights to use the Kzinti, so they invented a new name for them. How the Kzinti/Ferasan came to be in the Empire is unknown, but via a special project we have Ferasan Honor Guard members on our Starbases, so there's a possibility that they have obtained equal status as allies in the Klingon Empire as well if they're allowed to serve as Honor Guard members. That's quite the reckognition.
- The Joined Trill really have no story behind them except Curzon/Jadzia Dax liked Klingons and had friends in high places and Crypric gave Joined Trill to Feds. so they had to make them availible to KDF as well to prevent complaints and because the racial traits on the Joined Trill are really good, especially for science.
Now OP, all of this was regarding how things are currently explained in STO.
If you go by Star Trek canon and established rules, yes, every single one of those would be considered second class citizens and wouldn't be allowed to serve in the KDF as anything more than a civilian station like janitor/cook or similar. There would be certain exceptions to this in very rare situations, like for ex. Worf marrying a Trill and bringing her to a honorable Klingon House or Grilka marrying Quark and making him the man of the House. But as Martok said it himself: "We are Klingons Worf, we don't embrace other cultures - we conquer them!"
So lorewise and canonwise you're right OP, there's no chance in Gre'thor the Klingons would allow their newest and most advanced ship be commanded by an alien.
But after all, this is STO we're talking about and unfortunatelly STO is far far away from anything we've seen in the shows and the eastablished rules.
Or to simply adress your question:
How in the world does an Orion get her hands on the newest battleship the Empire has come out with?
- The same way a Starfleet Officer gets her hands on a Dominion Dreadnought, Tholian ship or any other alien junk floating around the universe, picked up by the Ferengi who obviously got really dumb lately because if they didn't sell all those ships, they'd have conquered all known space by now. :P
If things were all perfect, yes, Orion, Nausicaan, and Gorn players would all be flying their race specific ships, as would the Klingons. But the problem is that Cryptic had neglected filling out the KDF ship lineup that IF that rule had been implemented, the non-Klingon players would have had an abysmal ship selection. The Gorn would have at endgame 1 ship, the Veranus. The Orion would have 2 Flight Deck Cruisers at endgame. The Nausicaans would have 2 Destroyers at endgame. Hell, they don't even have non-KDF bridges for non-Klingon designed ships in the faction. It would all suck.
As for the other races. If you are a competent captain and loyal to the Klingon Empire, they need you on the front lines fighting things. And the non-faction ships. It's basically a free ship you didn't have to build.
KDF Tac: Bortasqu' Tactical
Fed Tac: Fleet Gal-X
Keep those big guns a-thunderin'
House of Beautiful Orions
PUNISH THE FEDs
Basically this, especially the first paragraph. This is STO, it doesn't adhere that closely to canon. Normally, the Gorn would be conquered peoples. The Klingon Empire invaded the Gorn Hegemony, conquered the home planet, executed the changeling infiltrators, and asserted their dominance. It's at that point that, for some reason, the Gorn are left semi-autonomous. The Orions are a different matter, of course, because they're basically allies. The same goes for the Nausicaans and Letheans. Which is why it would've definitely made sense to restrict those player races to the race-specific ships. As you've said, though, that never really materialized as a feasible concept. So now we've got non-Klingons rising to command-level positions in the KDF, something radically different from what was seen during the Dominion War era and elsewhere. It just clashes with the entire approach of the Klingon Empire.
I have no problem with the Voth and their warbeast. It is quite an effective way to terrorize your opponent. And if you have the technology, why not?
Which Ent-era ship are you talking about? There are two in game; one of them is tier 1, the other is hardly used because it is NOT all the viable. The D'kyr Class is a similar design as the one seen in Enterprise, but that does NOT mean they are the same hulls. THey could have been reusing the old blueprints and simply updating the technology as they went along.
The Romulan people kinda had a change of heart after their homeworlds were destroyed. Most of the civilians left the Tal Shiar's control and just want to be by themselves. The old school Romulans that you want are still out there. They are the Tal Shiar that are actively trying to overthrow and disprove the current Romulan Republic, and you know, reclaim their territory and go back to conquering people. D'tan and the rest of the Romulan Republic want to live their lives in peace. The entire Romulan reputation is filled with "turn over a new leaf" and "trying to live in peace with the Galaxy" motifs.
The "petting epohhs" part, while annoying and slightly demeaning, IS part of the "building homes for their homeless people" part. They have a planet. Now they have to study it, learn about it, and cultivate it. Part of that is tagging and studying the wildlife.
As for the Iconian gate, all the Romulan failsafes were there. It was a feedback from the Iconian end that caused the gate to malfunction in the first place. It was an Iconian failsafe into the Gate system that they built so that their master plan would not be spoiled by anyone snooping around their realm. While, yes, they were bit rash in activating it right off the bat, they had the right to. In much the same way that America had the right to build the Atomic bomb. It was on their sovereign soil; all Worf could do was seriously advise them.
And the Romulans had every reason to WANT to activate the gate. It would put New Romulus on the star charts and bring thousands of ships their for study, trade, commerce, etc. It would be lifeblood into the new world and allow the Romulans to step up to the galactic stage again. It is very much like how the Bajorans, back in the 2370's, staked claim to the Wormhole there. Thus putting Bajor on the star charts and bringing in loads of explorers, scientists, and commerce into their backwater system.
Any questions?
Yeah, a lot of complaints about the Romulans seem to be making the fundemental error in that these Romulans are not the ones from the shows. They've been through a lot more, lost a lot more, and most of them are not even trained soldiers. Why should they act like the ones in the shows? those Romulans were in the prime of their power, they had fleets; they had cloaking-enabled warships, they had their own vast space and were a galactic power on par with the Federation or the Klingon Empire.
What you're seeing now is the Romulans who have had their pride and arrogance knocked out of them by disaster after disaster, event after event which has driven them to the edge.
After all, they've basically went from top tier power to less influancual than some single planets.
The Orions are running the Klingon empire....
Check the history section here: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Orion_Syndicate#History
Briefly: Orions exhausted the resources of their home planet and began seeking other planets to call home. They managed to arrange a non-aggression and mutual defense treaty with the Klingons where they would operate as an independent state within the empire. In return 1500 orion "slave" women were sent to be companions for all the leaders of the great houses.
So. Orions were not conquered, they negotiated a mutual treaty, and the upper echelons of the great houses are innundated with orion slave women.
Here's the rub. Men are the slaves of women in Orion society, they merely give the impression of the inverse to smooth things along (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Orion). In truth the pheromones of female Orions essentially let them overpower and directly command most (i.e. not vulcan, but pretty much everyone else) other sentient races (e.g. the reason seduce is the best power in the game).
You can almost think of it as the rings from the Lord of the Rings. Sauron tricked the kingdoms into enslaving themselves by handing out trinkets (very well placed Orion women) that bound them to his control.
Sorry, long winded, but essentially the entire upper echelon of KDF society serves at the whims of the Orions. Even if you don't buy that, they were still never conquered and instead have a mutual defense treaty. So yes, they do maintain such stature in the KDF.
Only if you assume that J'mpok is dumber than this guy
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/641x500q90/196/3b8.png
and the Klingon Empire, that has had contact with the Orions for over 250 years, haven't figured that out yet.
It's a foregone conclusion. He ushered Orion women--renowned for their ability to "suggest" a course of action--into positions at the right hand of the leadership for every great house.
That's full capitulation and cultural victory for the Orions, essentially. The degree of their control is evident even in their mutual treaty: the Orions had no bargaining chips at all. A few scattered pirate scows are nothing to the Empire and their homeworld was broken and useless, yet they somehow managed to finagle a mutual accord with one of the most domineering races in the Universe? I find it much more likely that the Klingon Ambassadors were tricked into the deal from the Orion's feminine wiles/pheromones. This incidentally also indicates why it probably didnt work with feds (bad blood + unresponsive vulcans--Orions knew and so didn't even try, despite already residing in federation space) and the breen (who wear environmental suits and so wouldn't be subject to the pheromones).
Mark my words: the soft power of the Orions is immense, and vastly out of proportion to their "hard" power. Cultural victory; the KDF is theirs.
If the Orions were that good at it they'd have had control of the entire Alpha Quadrant by now.;)
The entire argument is based on "let's assume everyone is a complete idiot".
Or to put it more clearly: even of we assume for a moment that the Klingons didn't find out about this themselves; the crew of Enterprise knew about the effect Orions have, the Federation knew about it and the Klingons and the Federation were allies for 50+ years and shared intelligence and technology. And there was this large dangerous criminal cartel around.
Do you really, honestly think the Klingons wouldn't have heard about this at some point?
Do you really think the Federation would share photon torpedo guidance systems and long-range sensors with the Klingons [DS9:"Return to Grace"] but forget to tell them "Oh BTW Orion women can have total mental control over your men by being in the same room with them, you might wanna take some precautions there just in case." Seriously?
You also forgot that not only Vulcans were unresponsive: all females are unresponsive and get headaches. They'd notice what's going on very quickly.
They're well on their way, considering they own the entire Klingon empire and are currently fighting all the other residents of Alpha for their particular stakes....
They've already proven that they are by allowing Orions into such positions of confidence.
Seriously, Orions are DANGEROUS to have consistently near anybody in a position of power. It's imbecilic to allow such a relationship to exist in the first place, and guess where all these Orion women are now?
So yes, the KDF leadership are complete idiots. They proved it by signing a treaty which gave them basically nothing in return, while inviting serpents into their home. Have you ever considered that the Klingons knew, but were simply too proud to realize how susceptible they were? That doesn't strike you as a sufficiently Klingon response? How else do you explain welcoming what amounts to a mind-controller into close confidence of every major leadership position in your empire?
As to the OP, the klingons respect strength, thats why they admire Worf (who at one time was discommodated(sp?)) and Jadzia Dax, a small female. So if your orion can do all the things in that they have to do in the storyline, then they are worthy of the empires greatest warships.
I have an idea for what Season 11 should be; Season 11: The Big Bug Fix.
I have not been able to read my bug tickets in over a year, not even the tickets about not being able to see my tickets.
I find the drama of your signature proof of your immaturity, this means you, DR whiners.
I know I'm the one that made a long winded post in this thread, but that was only to answer the OP's question about the ST lore and STO lore.
The truth of the matter is - this is STO. And in STO we all know that Dinosaurs with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads rule the universe because they represent the apex of milions of years of evolution. :rolleyes: They rule the universe untill Mickey Mouse comes in Season 9, then he'll be crowned for Emperor Supreme. :P
I'm just saying that your debate about J'mpok being stupid or not, Orions ruling the KDF or not is pretty much pointless in a game where you have an armada of alien ships flown by Starfleet Officers in orbit of ESD, where a Starfleet Captain can take orders from Franklin Drake and Section 31, where KDF and Feds. are at war, but Bajor lets Klingon troops land in their capital, where KDF is at war with the Feds, but the KDF fights the Dominion in order to bring back DS9 to the Federation......well by now I'm sure you catch my drift...
Well, here's the thing: we don't know their exact numbers but given the fact they have enough people to occupy more than one planet it's probably at least a couple of millions. While they don't have to have a gigantic population density on each planet it should at least be enoug for each planet to adequatel exploit it. And I'm including servants, an entire private army, researchers and whatnot. And just bbecause it's called the Orion Syndicate doesn't means it's exclusively made up of Orions so there's a sudden influx of a lot of skilled personnell coming into the Klingon Empire with this.
Given they have their technology and their own ships I assume they Orions also have their own technological and industrial base that is either mobile or can be easily moved (not the same thing), something that makes sense given that an underground group must be ready to move out when discovered.
So I'm not sure what would make you think the Klingons are not getting anything out of this. And I'm only bringing the obvious military and scientific benefits on the table, there's an entire shadow market and industry at work behind the scenes. The Orions can get new and possilby illegal weapons and other technology as well as intelligence on their mutual enemies through their contacts.
As far as the Orions' effects go, remember that by the 23rd they didn't have these powerful effects anymore so there's probably a treatment or perhaps even an innoculation around.
R.I.P
My question though is or has there been any proof that the Orion pheromones effect Klingons?
R.I.P
It's still not a bad idea to use your head for a decent debate don't you think.
Just an example why this can still bear some fruits, look at the fact that allkorr's question whether or not the Klingons actually got anything out of the deal leads to f2pdrakron and me mentioning the intelligence aspects (as in spying...not that other intelligence) being an interesting aspect. And yes IMO it's something Cryptic should explore more.
In the end isn't a general "pro-think" attitude better than saying
"nah Dinoz with LAZZERZ means we're not supposed to use our brainz, I'm gonna die my hair with boooozz now and then have a smoke".
Hey, ofcourse a "pro-think" attitude is better then staying indifferent, that's why I mentioned your discussion to be rather interesting in my previous post.
The thing is, you're discussing how and why the Orions came to be allies with the Klingon Empire and wheather someone is under someone else's influence in a scenario created by someone who didn't even put the amount of thought into it that you guys have put here in this thread. They just picked up popular species in Star Trek that are not affiliated with the Federation and put them in the KDF in order the faction to have more species choices.
That's why today we only have blurry ideas and speculations as to why are the Gorn treated like equals, why are the Orions allied to the KDF, why does the Empire allign themselves with Nausicaan clans, what's up with the Letheans and where the hell did the Trill and Ferasan come from? The whole concept is not well thought through at all.
And if we go about this from the raw logical perspective - there's no chance in Gre'thor the Empire would give subjugated species their authonomy, no chance in Gre'thor that the honorable Empire would allign themselves with the most renown criminal syndicate in known space, nor there is a chance in Gre'thor they'll be alligning themselves and giving equal citizen status to some Nausicaan pirates that happened to fly around Klingon space.
Unless you happen to have a spy within cryptic telling you exactly how they write the games story, claiming that they did not put as much thought into it as the average player does is just presumptuous and arrogant.
Also, this is about 100 years into the future after the show ended. A lot can change in 100 years. Rom has been Grand Nagus und restructuring the Ferengi government and the federation had time to let the fact sink in that there are a ton of factions out there who have it in for them and might need to be warded off (In "insurrection" that one bad guy even mentioned that the federation has been challenged by every big major power in the last years and is struggling to keep their values)
Not to forget, Martok has been high chancellor most of that time, and no one can tell me that Worf being his BFF had no influence on the way he build up his government at all.
And regarding J'mpoks intelligence... He insists on fighting a War against the federation in a time where even the bloody house of Duras says "Eh, we should possibly not waste our resources on fighting feds with the Iconians ready to invade".
He really does not exactly have the best track record regarding decision making and is shown in several lore titbits to fear cultural dominance by the federation more then everything else, including obvious threats right at his doorstep.
Join Starfleet,
Boldly go where no man has gone before,
Meet interesting new species, and Kill them!
I have a bridge and 2 highways in Florida I'm willing to sell you for a bargain. :rolleyes:
Facepalm.
Facepalm Combo.
Here is my conclusion. The Klingon Empire is at the stage of its development akin to the Roman Empire at its peak. Its absolutely huge and an administrative nightmare and its only gotten bigger and threatens to get bigger still. The Empire simple does not have the civil servious capable of administering and governing its expanding space, fight new wars on multiple front, fend off rebellians, terrorism from independance movements and so on.
So Jem'pok looks for solutions. The Borg, the Breen, the Tholians, the Dominion, the True Way, the Tal Shiar, and who knows who else. He has enemies on all sides. He can't turn to the Federation, he doesn't trust the Federation, he thinks there pawns of the Undine, another threat, one which has possibly inflitrated his own government. Klingon Intellenge is good, but not good enough.
Then comes Melani D'ian. Already under Chancellor Martok a dialog has been established. Martok saw working closely with the Federation the benifits of cooperating with other races and more to the point he doesn't want an Orion Sydicate Breen Alliance.
So J'mpok recieves Melani D'ian or rather Hassan the Undying posing as the Leader and negiotations, continue. And what Melani D'ian offers is irrestable to a man in J'mpok's predicament. She offers an intelligence, criminal networks far more extensive then his own, one capable of not only keeping an eye on races hard for Klingon Intelligence to keep on eye on like the Tholians, but more importantly it can keep on eye on Undine Inflitrations that have occurred in his own government and Klingon Intelligence.
And it gets better. The Orions have been around a very long time, perhaps as long as races such as the Iconians (speculation on my part) and they know things about portential threats to the Empire that the Klingons don't even know exist yet.
As if that isn't enough of a boon to Klingon Security the Orions have advanced technology, not as much as there people once had, but they've managed to retain or regain enough of extreme value. Remember much of the Federations medical technology comes from the Orions, and that's likely only the tip of the iceberg. Were talking about a race with technology advanced enough to alter many if not most of there woman and skme men into weapons of mass seduction. They have the technology to beam people and equiptment off and onto ships with there shields up from a distance. They don't have everything they used to have but the Orions have suffered a series of disasters and set backs that have forced them into survival mode for along time.
So this offer is just too tempting to resist, the Orions are knoweldge rich, but resource poor.
So J'mpok agrees, setting a presidence. The Orions flow throughout the Empire and the benifits in just about every facet of the Empire's existance become quickly obvious.
Then the war with the Gorn comes and the Orions fight and die with honor, as equals more or less, and honor demands there sacrifice for the Empire be honored with respect.
In time the Empire takes the Gorn Homeworld and J'mpok finds he is faced with choice and threats.
The whole war was enigeered by the Undine who inflitrated the Gorn government.
So here is where J'mpok finds himself. He's just aquired countless worlds, including the Gonar, and its going to take an absolutely massive amount of personal and resources to govern the Gorn and keep them under control, resource to be blunt that he does not have, especially with other enemies at his door.
So could refuse to keep the Gorn, like a sports fisherman tosing his catch back, in the novels its happened before where a species was found to be unworthy of adding to the Empire.
He could over reach and likely doom the Empire. Or he can look at the Success of the Orion experiment and assimilate the Gorn into the Empire as a Vessel State, which vastly increases his resources, personal, military, and radical reduces the expenses of absorbing the Gorn Hemegony into the Empire. After all the Klingons don't care about day to day administeration or governce anyways.
The Empire grows in power imensely.
The Gorn have ties to the Nausicaans, who also earned the respect of the Klingons on the battlefield, and King Slathis uses his new found influence in the Empire to bring his Nausicaan friends and allies into the Empire. At this point things have changed enough the doors start opening for other races, like the Trill and Leathans.
If one reads the Ferasan Duty Officer assignments, one realizes that the Klingons are actively pursuing the Ferasan's to join the Empire diplomatically instead of via conquest. Speculation on my part is the Caitan are inflicting extreme casualies on the Empire and the Klingons wish to neutralize that Federation advantage the Caitans extreme agility and natural weapons gives them in ground combat.
a
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So this is a natural step in the evolution of the Empire given the events that have unfolded in STO.