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Forums > Home› Star Trek Online General Discussion

How successful / profitable is STO?

diegolycandiegolycan Member Posts: 2 Arc User
edited January 2014 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
Hi,
How successful / profitable has STO been over 2013? what's its Net profits? I was just wondering because it's a game I would like to spend a lot more time playing and I want to know if it has a future.

I can't seem to find any information about the financial success of this 'Free-to-play' title.

Does anyone know any information regarding this?

Cheers,

D
Post edited by diegolycan on

Comments

  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Thats because Cryptic does not release that information, just like they don't release player-count.

    And STO's success is a ongoing discussion topic... Some claim Doom while others claim that it has beaten and closed EvE.

    We will not know the what is the case, until such time that the game is shut down for not being profitable.
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    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
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  • wilbor2wilbor2 Member Posts: 1,684 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Devs say its been the best year yet for sto but there npt shown any numbers
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  • ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Game companies almost never release actual dollar amounts.
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  • vocmcpvocmcp Member Posts: 1,134 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I have checked the 10k report PWE had to submit to the SEC and apart from some utterly bold lies about "excellence in customer service" I have not found much of interest. The company itself made some 80M profit I believe but they do not disclose which game contributed how much.
    http://srs-fleet.net
  • diegolycandiegolycan Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Thank you for your response.

    I tend to think that you can find anything online. Sometimes the info just isn't out there.

    The best I can see is that Perfect World looks like $400 million turnover from the accounts in 2012, with $87 million profit, which I would say is very successful.

    Growing since 2008, peaked in 2011, slightly less in 2012. Very profitable the whole time, though the percentage has fluctuated, peaked at approx 55% in 2009 and around 20% in 2012.

    The game clearly has some successful formulas. Although that's doesn't reflect STO's success.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    vocmcp wrote: »
    I have checked the 10k report PWE had to submit to the SEC and apart from some utterly bold lies about "excellence in customer service" I have not found much of interest. The company itself made some 80M profit I believe but they do not disclose which game contributed how much.

    they have a dozen games and as you say which one? but cryptic could be under it's own profit reports because they have 3 games of their own and still act independently of PWE for the most part until PWE says "your mine." and absorbs cryptic and then plants ARC on every copy of their games.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    For ?20 you could try an FOI request.
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  • vocmcpvocmcp Member Posts: 1,134 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    mirrorchaos wrote: »
    they have a dozen games and as you say which one? but cryptic could be under it's own profit reports because they have 3 games of their own and still act independently of PWE for the most part until PWE says "your mine." and absorbs cryptic and then plants ARC on every copy of their games.

    I didn't find anything of the kind. Neither by manual search nor by using appropriate key words. All you get is a consolidated statement which is all they have to submit. Apart from that they sure weren't similarly reluctant when it came to bloating it all up with words etc.
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  • altechachanaltechachan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Well, I'll say that STO for Cryptic is growing at least. The new Voth Heavy Fighter from last month came from their new ship artist. According to JamJamz, the Voth Heavy Fighter was basically them training the person on the tools they use to develop STO (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=14118671&postcount=51).

    So with new personnel and additional content (as debatable as "content" can be determined by forum members), I'll say STO is at best successful and at worst healthy.
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    vocmcp wrote: »
    I didn't find anything of the kind. Neither by manual search nor by using appropriate key words. All you get is a consolidated statement which is all they have to submit. Apart from that they sure weren't similarly reluctant when it came to bloating it all up with words etc.

    consolidated? so cryptic is absorbed into PWE finances i thought they were independent.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • venkouvenkou Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    mirrorchaos wrote: »
    consolidated? so cryptic is absorbed into PWE finances i thought they were independent.
    I believe Cryptic is a division of Perfect World. When you look on Perfect World's accounting sheet, you will see two sections that associate with Cryptic. Accounts receivable and accounts payable. Its the same company.

    Perfect World bought out Cryptic's brands, games, and licenses.

    BioWare/EA is an example. Even though there is a division called BioWare, the company is owned, operated, and funded by Electronic Arts.

    Perfect World bought the brand Cryptic, for they felt its licenses had profitability and recognition.

    Cryptic is Perfect World.

    Cryptic just uses a different accounting sheet.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    venkou wrote: »
    I believe Cryptic is a division of Perfect World. When you look on Perfect World's accounting sheet, you will see two sections that associate with Cryptic. Accounts receivable and accounts payable. Its the same company.

    Perfect World bought out Cryptic's brands, games, and licenses.

    BioWare/EA is an example. Even though there is a division called BioWare, the company is owned, operated, and funded by Electronic Arts.

    Perfect World bought the brand Cryptic, for they felt its licenses had profitability and recognition.

    Cryptic is Perfect World.

    Cryptic just uses a different accounting sheet.

    i never understood too much about that whole pwe cryptic thing, i knew that cryptic was a part of PWE, i just wondered if they are part of the whole puzzle which i now know for sure. thanks for your answer.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • venkouvenkou Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    mirrorchaos wrote: »
    i never understood too much about that whole pwe cryptic thing, i knew that cryptic was a part of PWE, i just wondered if they are part of the whole puzzle which i now know for sure. thanks for your answer.
    *nods* Yeah, its crazy.

    Without giving too much away, I use to work for a major car dealership. We had multiple divisions throughout the country, and each one had their own accounts receivable and payable. Same company. Different divisions.

    We kept all the divisions on separate sheets, so we can determine which one has liabilities, assets, revenue, taxes, and profitability. If anything were to occur to one of the divisions, the separate accounting books allowed us to sell, expand, or contract a division. You could technically cut a whole division off, and it would not phase the other divisions.

    Perfect World is the main company. I bet Perfect World owns some other divisions.
  • drogyn1701drogyn1701 Member Posts: 3,606 Media Corps
    edited January 2014
    If I recall correctly, the term I heard used to describe the relationship was "Wholly Owned Subsidiary"

    From investopedia.com:
    A company whose common stock is 100% owned by another company, called the parent company. A company can become a wholly owned subsidiary through acquisition by the parent company or spin off from the parent company. In contrast, a regular subsidiary is 51 to 99% owned by the parent company. One situation in which a parent company might find it helpful to establish a subsidiary company is if it wants to operate in a foreign market. This arrangement is common among high-tech companies who want to retain complete control and ownership of their technology.
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  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    There is no specific info out there for STO or Cryptic, but Perfect World does release an annual report to its investors every year, as do most other corporations.

    From the last one, they seem to be doing rather well, despite a large investment into Neverwinter (id assume) last year that cut into their net profit a little bit. They are still well in the green.

    http://www.pwrd.com/html/en/pdf/2012_ar.pdf
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  • venkouvenkou Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    rylanadionysis wrote: »
    There is no specific info out there for STO or Cryptic, but Perfect World does release an annual report to its investors every year, as do most other corporations.

    From the last one, they seem to be doing rather well, despite a large investment into Neverwinter (id assume) last year that cut into their net profit a little bit. They are still well in the green.
    Revenue is only considered profit after liabilities (accounts payable) are paid. Neverwinter cut into Perfect World's revenue, so it took away from some of the company's 'possible' profits.
    drogyn1701 wrote: »
    If I recall correctly, the term I heard used to describe the relationship was "Wholly Owned Subsidiary"
    *nods* Correct. As your quoted piece had said, "Parent Company".
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    venkou wrote: »
    Revenue is only considered profit after liabilities (accounts payable) are paid.

    Yes, I am reading the line Net Profit, which is under Gross Profit and Operating Expenses

    PW overall made 87 million dollars after costs last year, with 83 million attributable to its shareholders.. (if this is an accurate report, which I assume it must be)
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  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    For the Year Ended December 31,
    2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
    RMB RMB RMB RMB RMB US$
    (in thousands, except for share, per share and per ADS data)
    Consolidated Statements of Income and
    Comprehensive Income Data:
    Revenues:
    Online game operation revenues
    .........
    1,250,960 1,879,933 2,156,258 2,708,507 2,499,419 401,184
    Licensing revenues
    ..................
    186,218 214,625 214,981 246,823 171,564 27,538
    Other revenues
    ..................... ? ?
    12,402 28,107 99,604 15,987
    Total revenues
    .....................
    1,437,178 2,094,558 2,383,641 2,983,437 2,770,587 444,709
    Cost of revenues
    ....................
    (175,264) (271,227) (379,417) (479,930) (539,936) (86,666)
    Gross profit
    .......................
    1,261,914 1,823,331 2,004,224 2,503,507 2,230,651 358,043
    Operating expenses
    ..................
    (584,813) (744,049) (1,125,830) (1,480,221) (1,718,871) (275,898)
    Operating profit
    ....................
    677,101 1,079,282 878,394 1,023,286 511,780 82,145
    Total other income
    ..................
    22,659 21,381 35,740 118,517 151,584 24,331
    Income before tax
    ...................
    699,760 1,100,663 914,134 1,141,803 663,364 106,476
    Income from continuing operations, net of tax 646,456 1,033,606 825,138 980,099 547,245 87,838
    Income / (loss) from discontinued operations,
    net of tax(1)
    ..................... ?
    4,095 1,425 (37) ? ?
    Net Income
    .......................
    646,456 1,037,701 826,563 980,062 547,245 87,838
    Net (income) / loss attributable to
    non-controlling interests
    ............. ?
    (500) 14,138 3,924 (6,594) (1,058)
    Net income attributable to the Company?s
    shareholders
    .....................
    646,456 1,037,201 840,701 983,986 540,651 86,780
    Net Income
    .......................
    646,456 1,037,701 826,563 980,062 547,245 87,838
    Other comprehensive (loss) / income: Foreign
    currency translation adjustment
    ........
    (33,806) 124 (503) 5,526 (20,112) (3,228)
    Comprehensive income
    ...............
    612,650 1,037,825 826,060 985,588 527,133 84,610
    Comprehensive (income) / loss attributable to
    non-controlling interests
    ............. ?
    (500) 14,138 3,924 (6,594) (1,058)
    Comprehensive income attributable to the
    Company?s shareholders
    .............
    612,650 1,037,325 840,198 989,512 520,539 83,552
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  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Another interesting stat in the annual report...

    Perfect World has over 3 million paying subscribers. Paying. (page 66)
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  • venkouvenkou Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    rylanadionysis wrote: »
    Yes, I am reading the line Net Profit, which is under Gross Profit and Operating Expenses

    PW overall made 87 million dollars after costs last year, with 83 million attributable to its shareholders.. (if this is an accurate report, which I assume it must be)

    Did you see this?:
    27. Subsequent events
    (1) Investment in Unknown Worlds
    In February 2013, the Group increased the equity interest in Unknown Worlds from 40% to 60%.
    Due to the timing of the closing, the Company has not completed the purchase accounting for this transaction as of the date the financial statements were issue.
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    venkou wrote: »
    Did you see this?:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_Worlds_Entertainment

    I dont know how much the valuation there might be, with only six employees, it seems like a very small studio. In any case, we would have to wait for the report for fiscal 2013 to know if that took a significant bite or not.

    Its too bad they dont release independent information for PWE or Cryptic, but then again I guess they dont have to, given the umbrella of the parent's SEC filing.
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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Guys even though the company never releases it's stats you can find them. Got money says PWE is somewhere on the stock exchange. I can almost bet that it will show it's growth. Not like they can hide those numbers.
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  • venkouvenkou Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Perfect World has a lot of revenue from China. lol...
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Of course, they are a Chinese company.
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  • tenkaritenkari Member Posts: 2,906 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    rylanadionysis wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_Worlds_Entertainment

    I dont know how much the valuation there might be, with only six employees, it seems like a very small studio. In any case, we would have to wait for the report for fiscal 2013 to know if that took a significant bite or not.

    It might be small, but natural selection (1 and 2) are pretty popular.
  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I dont think it really matters, as long as the game is around and we are getting decent updates. does knowing the figure change what we got last year, or change what we know about what is happening this year?

    yes, its sometimes nice to know the game is not going anywhere but with an expansion last year, another due this year, seasons are pretty big, their staff is growing, more classic actors are being brought in for VO etc. things are moving in the right direction.
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    captainrevo1 wrote: »
    I dont think it really matters, as long as the game is around and we are getting decent updates. does knowing the figure change what we got last year, or change what we know about what is happening this year?

    yes, its sometimes nice to know the game is not going anywhere but with an expansion last year, another due this year, seasons are pretty big, their staff is growing, more classic actors are being brought in for VO etc. things are moving in the right direction.

    Not only that they are also revamping older material, which should never be sneezed at.

    I mean how many games seriously go back and look at the intro levels and go "what can we make better?"
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  • dkshadow9498dkshadow9498 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Bottom line:

    1) Feburary is the 4th anniversary.
    2) Even an insane bunch like the Chinese won't operate a game at LOSS.
    3) I've seen more people online during 2013 than I have ever seen, short of launch.
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  • kalipou77kalipou77 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Since I can't make a new thread to ask a question I'm gonna post here and hope someone's nice enough to answer me

    Question:
    Can my friend board my ship and then can I Taxi him to planets, quests etc? Can other people sit in your officer slots? Can a ship be used as a multiplayer mount to go places?
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