Really this whole thread evolved - or devolved if you like - from my poor reman sci toon - fully spec'd for space - being steam rolled by voth spam In the ground battlezone. That is another gripe of mine - 10 people standing afk In the zone cause me to be hit with mass waves of super mechs and spec ops when I try to cap a point solo?
That is another problem with cryptics design - they add new ground stuff - but if your primarily a space player you would be foolish not to specialize everything into space. So now you are gimped on the ground. Why can't we max both space and ground traits? Why are our skills forcing us to specialize in space or ground? It does not make much sense to me - especially if cryptic wants us to do both types of content.
Well, mthis IS one of the few things that makes a certain amount of sense. After all, no one should be expert at everything. If you want your character to excel at space, with the skills along for it, then you have to take away from ground. (And vice versa). Look at most any RPG-style game out, you have to make choices & trade-offs.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I have 4 eng and 1 tac. My tac can not stand up to my eng. You can have high dps with a eng and on ground , to me a tac can't match up to eng abilities. On defera eng rule and in battlezone is a piece of cake.
Well, mthis IS one of the few things that makes a certain amount of sense. After all, no one should be expert at everything. If you want your character to excel at space, with the skills along for it, then you have to take away from ground. (And vice versa). Look at most any RPG-style game out, you have to make choices & trade-offs.
I think it is an issue - the content is completely different - space vs ground - I don't think a lot of other games have two vastly different types of content that the developers want players to use - but force you to specialize in one or the other If you want to be effective.
You know what it does for me? Just gives me another reason not to do any of STO's ground content - and I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.
I have 4 eng and 1 tac. My tac can not stand up to my eng. You can have high dps with a eng and on ground , to me a tac can't match up to eng abilities. On defera eng rule and in battlezone is a piece of cake.
I guess you have not been reading much of the thread dealing with my poor space spec'd sci toon being rofl stomped in the battlezone be 2 push mech a few spec ops - regular voth and turrents all at the same time while trying to solo a cap and hold point?
I think it is an issue - the content is completely different - space vs ground - I don't think a lot of other games have two vastly different types of content that the developers want players to use - but force you to specialize in one or the other If you want to be effective.
You know what it does for me? Just gives me another reason not to do any of STO's ground content - and I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.
Well, that's your choice, and that's cool. But I was drawing from sources, other than just video games, like pen & paper RPG's, such as FASA's old Star Trek, and TSR's Star Frontiers. You can get so many skill points, per level. But you still have to choose where to dump them. So you can be really great at some things, mediocre at others, and just terrible at yet more. Or, you can be a "jack-of-all-trades/master-of-none" type.
But I really think, being able to be a master at both space and ground, is just not a good way to go. Means you can be good at it all, instead of having to make choices, or buy re-spec tokens (which I don't care for the latter, but I understand their reason for existence)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I guess you have not been reading much of the thread dealing with my poor space spec'd sci toon being rofl stomped in the battlezone be 2 push mech a few spec ops - regular voth and turrents all at the same time while trying to solo a cap and hold point?
I have read and was just letting you know it is possible to have a good ship and toon no matter what class.
1. My Fed JTrill Engineer is the better team ship for an STF. It does a little less DPS (but still very high) but it is a threat magnet and super survivable. Keeps the borg off of the less geared or experienced players.
2. All of my scis and engineers are set up full offense and rely on their innate abilities to survive. The mistake many make is to go full engineering self tank (zombie) with an engy, or sci magic in a sci ship with their subnuker. Put that engy in a BFAW heavy tactical cruiser, or the sci in an escort and you will see a world of difference.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I think it is an issue - the content is completely different - space vs ground - I don't think a lot of other games have two vastly different types of content that the developers want players to use - but force you to specialize in one or the other If you want to be effective.
You know what it does for me? Just gives me another reason not to do any of STO's ground content - and I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.
So who is the one missing the point? The game designers forced players to put points into ground with the skill rebalance and even gave us more skill points so the min maxing spacers could have the same amount in space skills. Yet still space min maxers complain about wanting even more skill points. They designed it so you could rob Peter to pay Paul, but the more you do the more you suffer for it in ground content. Those of us who spec evenly for both have no trouble in elite PvE and PvP.
1. My Fed JTrill Engineer is the better team ship for an STF. It does a little less DPS (but still very high) but it is a threat magnet and super survivable. Keeps the borg off of the less geared or experienced players.
2. All of my scis and engineers are set up full offense and rely on their innate abilities to survive. The mistake many make is to go full engineering self tank (zombie) with an engy, or sci magic in a sci ship with their subnuker. Put that engy in a BFAW heavy tactical cruiser, or the sci in an escort and you will see a world of difference.
In PvP yes. In PvE it is not worth it. Tac in an escort or BFAW aux2bat is all you need. The more you have the faster to it will be to finish. Say it with me ... There is no trinity .... Escorts can tank ....
Of course I am talking about skilled players not fools in skittles boats.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I find the whole OP a matter of perspective.
If you only care about DPS then one could argue Tac's do straight DPS while Science and Engineers have to do other things, take extra steps and still not do as much DPS. I get it, after all I parse damage in space and on ground.. However that's a narrow perspective.
IN PVP all three classes bring something to the table. Each has a role to play unsupported tacs don't live long, debuffed targets die quickly, and everyone needs a good heal.
In PVE one must ask how much DPS is enough? At some point your only killing stuff a fraction of a second faster that the other characters all in pursuit of the tyrannizing image of a DPS score.
My Engineer can do about 17k DPS in ISE.. stuff dies quickly with damage like that. It's not Tac quick but it's not hurt the team in an optional run.. We throw these numbers around and think wow if your not 35K you slacking. Reality is any EliteSTF optional can be easily achieved if everyone pulls at least 3k and 3k isn't hard. I've gotten the BOFF bug flying into ISE and pulled 5k without a single BOFF power...
And as for ground, I've parsed it a lot. by encounter and over all DPS even melee Tac's aren't the best. Engineers with mines will easily be highest DPS, followed closely by melee tacs, then sci's with physicist kits ( who will easily out DPS a ranged tac build) .
From a PVE perspective I have found Science then Engineers to survive better than any Tac I have tried to make. Sadly I am certain I am not making the rigidly defined perspectives on how to do it what ever it is. Mostly because I need a bloody translator for sentences running like: Use marion DOFF A2B BO FAW FTW
On the ground in PVE I ran a crew of Tacs and they all got creamed like red shirts. (Go figure)
Nothing but Science and they were slaughtered with no dent in the bad guys at all.
But an all engineer team of bridge officers will churn through even an alerted borg cube.
(Something about five mine fields, phaser turrets (not counting add ons), a pair of shields and medical generators. Makes for a deadly place for NPCs to run into.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Science in PvP is very much alive. There are some impressive builds out there even with people using obsolete ships like Nebula.
Science in PvE is in my opinion useless. Since it is a DPS race I don't see what science brings to the table. I mean occasionally I feel valuable with GW and pet spam ... and there is always NWS. But otherwise ... what's the point. Engineers are only a few steps behind ... though I do have a lot of fun in my Torkhat tanking Voth Dreadnough at point blank range.
Depends on the ship. I have a mirror patrol escort which is a little science focused. So, I use some of the science officers ability while freeing up console space to improve either hull, shield, and weapons.
Using science hold and jamming signal, with the cascading tetyron weapons and antiproton sweeps does wonders!
Out side of PvP it seems there is no role for science and Engineers. In space pve race do everything better - even in sci or engineering based ships. I suppose on the ground engineers are still relevant - but science captains have a really hard time. I just took my sci main on a run through 2 tough hours in the battlezone that could have been done in half the time on a tac. Also in space pve what use are the science captain powers on npc's?
Since this is my only mmo I have no idea if other games have 2 of the 3 classes pretty much useless compared to the first - in 90% of the games content. Is it normal in mmo's to have such useless classes for pve content?
I could understand when this game started you might need a healer and a command and control to help the team finish the mission - but when a tactical captain in a scimitar can finish the game's 'hard' content - like infected space elite - solo - with optional - doesn't that say the others are now useless? Has this happened in other mmos?
It sounds like you might have some bad skill choices going on. My Engineer is a survivor, can do Battlegrounds in Voth area soloing every point if need be. In space I just can't die it seems. I do use a Jem'hadar dreadnaught though so maybe that's cheating? And I am a lot faster at doing this then my Science and Tactical captains. That's not saying those other two are bad, I just choose badly at their skill set ups.
To make Eng and Sci useful in PvE Space, you'd have to actually make the game difficult and give those two classes the ability to remove/reduce that difficultly.
Tacs rule because Boffs allow them to do all the useful stuff the other two classes can do in PvE Space.
You know Cryptic has Jumped the Proverbial Shark when they introduced Tractor Pulling to Star Trek Online!
Defensive sci is little help: most PVE builds these days carry enough internal sci ability to heal smaller hits by themselves (Hazard Emitters in particular is largely considered de rigeur). Offensive sci, on the other hand, particularly crowd control powers, can be extremely useful in PVE. Crystalline Entity Elite, for one, is nearly impossible for a team of five tacboats. Trust me, I have experienced this when pugging it and the entity will 90% of the time end up stopped at about 30-50% HP and buffed to functional invulnerability. A team with somebody who can gravwell the shards and clear any buffing the entity does get can finish in five minutes.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Crystalline Entity Elite, for one, is nearly impossible for a team of five tacboats. Trust me, I have experienced this when pugging it and the entity will 90% of the time end up stopped at about 30-50% HP and buffed to functional invulnerability. A team with somebody who can gravwell the shards and clear any buffing the entity does get can finish in five minutes.
Funny you say that since the speed run record for cce was a team of 10 tacs. You talk about grav well but theres nothing stopping a tac captain from using it just as effectively as a sci captain.
Comments
Well, mthis IS one of the few things that makes a certain amount of sense. After all, no one should be expert at everything. If you want your character to excel at space, with the skills along for it, then you have to take away from ground. (And vice versa). Look at most any RPG-style game out, you have to make choices & trade-offs.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I think it is an issue - the content is completely different - space vs ground - I don't think a lot of other games have two vastly different types of content that the developers want players to use - but force you to specialize in one or the other If you want to be effective.
You know what it does for me? Just gives me another reason not to do any of STO's ground content - and I don't think I am the only one who feels this way.
I guess you have not been reading much of the thread dealing with my poor space spec'd sci toon being rofl stomped in the battlezone be 2 push mech a few spec ops - regular voth and turrents all at the same time while trying to solo a cap and hold point?
Well, that's your choice, and that's cool. But I was drawing from sources, other than just video games, like pen & paper RPG's, such as FASA's old Star Trek, and TSR's Star Frontiers. You can get so many skill points, per level. But you still have to choose where to dump them. So you can be really great at some things, mediocre at others, and just terrible at yet more. Or, you can be a "jack-of-all-trades/master-of-none" type.
But I really think, being able to be a master at both space and ground, is just not a good way to go. Means you can be good at it all, instead of having to make choices, or buy re-spec tokens (which I don't care for the latter, but I understand their reason for existence)
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I have read and was just letting you know it is possible to have a good ship and toon no matter what class.
I've never been an engineer, but Sci is amazing... Space and ground.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
1. My Fed JTrill Engineer is the better team ship for an STF. It does a little less DPS (but still very high) but it is a threat magnet and super survivable. Keeps the borg off of the less geared or experienced players.
2. All of my scis and engineers are set up full offense and rely on their innate abilities to survive. The mistake many make is to go full engineering self tank (zombie) with an engy, or sci magic in a sci ship with their subnuker. Put that engy in a BFAW heavy tactical cruiser, or the sci in an escort and you will see a world of difference.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
So who is the one missing the point? The game designers forced players to put points into ground with the skill rebalance and even gave us more skill points so the min maxing spacers could have the same amount in space skills. Yet still space min maxers complain about wanting even more skill points. They designed it so you could rob Peter to pay Paul, but the more you do the more you suffer for it in ground content. Those of us who spec evenly for both have no trouble in elite PvE and PvP.
In PvP yes. In PvE it is not worth it. Tac in an escort or BFAW aux2bat is all you need. The more you have the faster to it will be to finish. Say it with me ... There is no trinity .... Escorts can tank ....
Of course I am talking about skilled players not fools in skittles boats.
- Judge Aaron Satie
If you only care about DPS then one could argue Tac's do straight DPS while Science and Engineers have to do other things, take extra steps and still not do as much DPS. I get it, after all I parse damage in space and on ground.. However that's a narrow perspective.
IN PVP all three classes bring something to the table. Each has a role to play unsupported tacs don't live long, debuffed targets die quickly, and everyone needs a good heal.
In PVE one must ask how much DPS is enough? At some point your only killing stuff a fraction of a second faster that the other characters all in pursuit of the tyrannizing image of a DPS score.
My Engineer can do about 17k DPS in ISE.. stuff dies quickly with damage like that. It's not Tac quick but it's not hurt the team in an optional run.. We throw these numbers around and think wow if your not 35K you slacking. Reality is any EliteSTF optional can be easily achieved if everyone pulls at least 3k and 3k isn't hard. I've gotten the BOFF bug flying into ISE and pulled 5k without a single BOFF power...
And as for ground, I've parsed it a lot. by encounter and over all DPS even melee Tac's aren't the best. Engineers with mines will easily be highest DPS, followed closely by melee tacs, then sci's with physicist kits ( who will easily out DPS a ranged tac build) .
On the ground in PVE I ran a crew of Tacs and they all got creamed like red shirts. (Go figure)
Nothing but Science and they were slaughtered with no dent in the bad guys at all.
But an all engineer team of bridge officers will churn through even an alerted borg cube.
(Something about five mine fields, phaser turrets (not counting add ons), a pair of shields and medical generators. Makes for a deadly place for NPCs to run into.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Depends on the ship. I have a mirror patrol escort which is a little science focused. So, I use some of the science officers ability while freeing up console space to improve either hull, shield, and weapons.
Using science hold and jamming signal, with the cascading tetyron weapons and antiproton sweeps does wonders!
It sounds like you might have some bad skill choices going on. My Engineer is a survivor, can do Battlegrounds in Voth area soloing every point if need be. In space I just can't die it seems. I do use a Jem'hadar dreadnaught though so maybe that's cheating? And I am a lot faster at doing this then my Science and Tactical captains. That's not saying those other two are bad, I just choose badly at their skill set ups.
Tacs rule because Boffs allow them to do all the useful stuff the other two classes can do in PvE Space.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Funny you say that since the speed run record for cce was a team of 10 tacs. You talk about grav well but theres nothing stopping a tac captain from using it just as effectively as a sci captain.