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Do science and Engineers have any role left in this game?
newromulan1
Member Posts: 2,229
Out side of PvP it seems there is no role for science and Engineers. In space pve race do everything better - even in sci or engineering based ships. I suppose on the ground engineers are still relevant - but science captains have a really hard time. I just took my sci main on a run through 2 tough hours in the battlezone that could have been done in half the time on a tac. Also in space pve what use are the science captain powers on npc's?
Since this is my only mmo I have no idea if other games have 2 of the 3 classes pretty much useless compared to the first - in 90% of the games content. Is it normal in mmo's to have such useless classes for pve content?
I could understand when this game started you might need a healer and a command and control to help the team finish the mission - but when a tactical captain in a scimitar can finish the game's 'hard' content - like infected space elite - solo - with optional - doesn't that say the others are now useless? Has this happened in other mmos?
Since this is my only mmo I have no idea if other games have 2 of the 3 classes pretty much useless compared to the first - in 90% of the games content. Is it normal in mmo's to have such useless classes for pve content?
I could understand when this game started you might need a healer and a command and control to help the team finish the mission - but when a tactical captain in a scimitar can finish the game's 'hard' content - like infected space elite - solo - with optional - doesn't that say the others are now useless? Has this happened in other mmos?
Post edited by newromulan1 on
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And there's the huge flaw in your reasoning. One group being able to accomplish something doesn't in and of itself make other groups useless.
My main, and favorite toons, are science. I run as a healer/debuffer/cc... and I know (from experience (I have tac toons as well), that having a Sci around (who knows what they are doing) can speed up the mission, keep you alive, etc etc etc...
In PvP there is definetly a roll for Sci, at least in space...
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Science in PvE is in my opinion useless. Since it is a DPS race I don't see what science brings to the table. I mean occasionally I feel valuable with GW and pet spam ... and there is always NWS. But otherwise ... what's the point. Engineers are only a few steps behind ... though I do have a lot of fun in my Torkhat tanking Voth Dreadnough at point blank range.
- Judge Aaron Satie
Perhaps since most of the content is time race and dps based then - a more accurate term would be less useful - rather than useless.
So are science captain powers useful in pve - or 90% plus games content?
Also in pve mission these days I see virtually no cross healing and a tac can run grav well in many ships - and do some CC just fine - if they even needed it.
So the question is still valid - are sci and Engineers becoming useless in pve?
And no-one yet has answered the other question - does this happen in other mmos?
Healers are absolutely necessary in other games ... cause they have this little thing called the trinity. Good luck trying to DPS race a new raid in WoW the way you can DPS race the latest Season's content here. That's why guilds are so vital in there and team work.
Honestly, this game caters to a different market altogether. It is the casual or solo players. Given that I would say the "ship" has long ago sailed on making science and engineers meaningfully useful in this game.
And yes ... you can argue that science is useful in this game ... because it can do some things like aoe damage and adds to team firepower via force multipliers (photonic fleet). But by that argument a skittles boat that procs frequently would also also be useful.
Would you rather have the skittles boat or a FAW spam-bot Scimitar that can help you finish STF in 4 minutes. /Case_closed
- Judge Aaron Satie
As for science officers, well I have three of them, and first off they provide debuffs to targets, slowing the dmg output, making them take more dmg, and slowing the power recharge. They also have a photonics fleet later on in levels, which is awesome being able to spawn 3 ships to assist in combat. With the right traits and doffs, this can be used every three minutes. Then their is access to science ships, while anyone can use them, science officers are better at boosting those science abilities because of traits. Science officers have access to traits such as conservation of energy, which gives a stacking bonus to exotic damage. They can also train officers with improved abilities, while it is possible to get Boffs with these trained skills, it is easier access for science officers.
Not to mention their are a lot of fights which really benefit from crowd control and grouping up the groups for easy aoe dmg. As for ground combat, I find it a lot easier to survive on my healer science officer than on my engineer or tac. I don,t have to rely on my Boffs to keep me alive and instead let them focus on each other and giving me dmg support, as I can heal myself rather easily and survive fights that would quickly kill me and my team on a tactical or engineer. I do love the grenades tacs get and their abilities, and engineers have a lot of versatility with the turrets and drones, but my science I can survive most counters an debuff the enemy, that my only complaint has been wishing for one dps skill with all my heals so I can do something for dmg besides shooting them with my weapons or melee combat dmg with my lirpa.
Also, gravity well is cc but it is also dps, and I have seen fights go much faster with multiple science abilities being dropped tha just a pure tactical spam. In fact one of my slowest groups I was ever in was my engineer and four tacticals. Maybe it was the players but with smaller squishy ships and no crowd control, the fights took longer due to lots of dieing and no grouping up of mobs for the tacs to be able to kill them. Granted it was at mid levels but lacking any cc at all made for a slow and painful mirror group than I was normally use to. It might have been noticeable, but when groups normally take seven to fifteen minutes and this group took nearly twenty five minutes, it is a noticeable difference when you lack science abilities and tanking cruiser threat generation. Dps might be king in this game but having a well rounded group that knows what they are doing and takes advantage of the different types of ships and classes makes for a better group.
Let's see...
Sensor Scan: AoE targeted resist debuff - useful
Photonic fleet: Decoys + outgoing damage - useful, moreso on ships that can make good use of the photonic capacitor trait.
Science Fleet: possibly the single most powerful groupwide shield buff - useful
Scattering Field: PBAoE damage resist aura - useful
Subnucleonic Beam: Granddaddy of all buff strippers - extremely useful, especially on bosses
In short: yes they are.
Don't move the goalposts. You're either talking about science captain abilities, or you're talking about science ships, or you're talking about science BOFF powers. They are not interchangable terms, and each has it's own unique discussion.
For the second time: science and engineering captains are more than capable of completing all content in STO. They are not useless.
Sensor Scan: Benefits from high aux. Super-strong AOE version of attack pattern beta. Makes important targets (or gravwell clumps) die very fast.
Scattering Field: Benefits from high aux. AOE survivability boost. Equivalent to several layers of neutronium armor for you and anybody near you.
Science Fleet: -33% damage to shields!
Photonic Fleet: 1.) Get the photonic capacitor trait. 2.) Pull an armada out of your pocket at the start of every engagement. 3.) Thank me later.
Sub-Nuke Beam: Alright, fair enough, this one kind of bites versus NPCs because the really tough ships that you would WANT to use it on outright cheat instead of using buffs that can be removed.
Four very good abilities and 1 lemon.
In every HP based system(which is what the majority of MMOs use), DPS always supersedes survivability(tanking and healing) once a "survivability threshold" has been reached. Past the threshold, more survivability does nothing. DPS has no threshold because more DPS will always mean a faster clear time.
The "trinity" is nothing more than an arbitrary illusion.
I understand what you're saying. All three captains are able to do STFs, but...that's not what the OP is asking. A lot of content has timed optionals or can just be completed with raw dps. In both those cases the tac captain is superior to the other two captains. An engineer or a science captain can both complete all content, but the tac captain does it way easier.
I think the purpose of this post is about how content is just a dps fest rather than something where you need crowd control or tanking or anything else but raw dps. I'm sure if cryptic added harder content where the enemy ships had better AI and used skills both the engineer and science captains would both be as useful as the tac captain is now.
I discovered that alot of time in Fleet actions pugs defending starbases, sometimes a wave or two of enemies are overlooked. The rest of the team will be blasting down or concentrating on one wave, totally unaware of another enemy group. I would then power-slide in with all beam arrays blasting into this unnoticed enemy group. Sure, I won't kill them off (normally the rest of the team will noticed the new light show and come over eventually), but the point is that so long as enemy units are shooting at me they aren't shooting at the starbase or the DPS ships or the Science ships.
This method buys time for escorts to finish up whatever target they are chewing through and then line up for another devastating attack run. It also buys time for science ships to prepare gravity well/tykens rift/whatever and it also buys time for people who are respawning. The new communications arrays for cruisers helps alot with this maneuver.
In STFs, this method doesn't translate as well since it's been well documented that five escorts can eat though an entire STF in a handful of minutes. But for when things go contrary to plan, it's a great assist.
"Buying time" for your team isn't as glamorous as flying a DHC escort with five tac consoles but it can feel empowering at times.
(UFP) Ragnar
All three classes are very well balanced and relevant on the ground. What was your science using in the Battlezone? I should be able to help you set up the character to run the content just as fast as a Tactical officer.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I guess I was more frustrated with my sci toon today on the ground - it was extremely frustrating.
Really? Because in other MMOs they don't just up the damage or debuffs from bosses and NPCs to counter defenses and make survival a problem again. I invite you to try doing those raids in trinity MMOs the way we do STFs and other content here ... random group of people (mostly DPS). Unless the raids are obsolete (low level, etc) ... watch me laugh as you die horribly in less than 30 secs.
I am not saying the casual / puggable nature of content here is necessarily bad. It has its bonuses but it also means certain roles become redundant ... aka healer and tank.
- Judge Aaron Satie
if you're used to playing tac on the ground, the other two classes can be difficult. I usually run the doctor kit and use mele. you can hit hard and tank pretty well.
Ok, try this. For your Science officer use the Adapted MACO Pulsewave and Armor with the Dyson Shield and the Dyson Experimental Rifle. Next, slot a Physicist Science kit on your character. In your device slots, put 60x Large Hypo, the Shard of Possibilities, Frosted Boots, and 60x Large Power Cell. Also, slot a gambling device, assign the button to tray 3/row 1, give it a keybind, and then deslot it. You will be able to double click it in inventory, use the gambling device, and then deslot it.
For duty officers use 3x Geologist (Cooldown reduction on Exothermic Induction Field/Hyperonic Radiation), 1x Biochemist (-10 All Damage Resistance with any Science Debuff), and 1x Explosive Expert (Voth - Explosive Projectiles with Exothermic Induction Field).
Try it out, you will deal damage capable of rivaling a Tactical officer on the Ground. I can also give you an engineering build that can do the same thing for Engineers on the ground.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
So a science to be useful on the ground - solo - is forced to be a healer/melee player running around in a star trek game with a glowing sword - lol
In every single MMO, you will eventually be able to do older content with less and less tanks and healers until you can eventually do it with all DPS. As this goes on, you will eventually be able to solo the content with a single DPSer.
I find it odd that you never encountered this phenomena. Are you new to MMOs... or any HP-based game in general?
See my last post, Physicist is more than capable of rivaling Tactical officers in the damage department.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Well thanks for the advise - it seems like a lot of work to be competitive with a tac officer? And slotting a voth specific doff? Argh - Maybe I should just stick with space. Add that to the fact that I was soloing capture points and the game would spawn 2 of the super heavy mechs with the push shield on me during the middle of capture - along with both spec ops - guess it's just a bad day for me as I am not usually this frustrated with the game.
Bahahaha! Spoken like someone who hasn't even TRIED the joys of a KDF ENG Carrier Captain.
Mirror Vo'Quv forever!
I have 3 KDF engineers - but none in a carrier. Like I said any class and any ship can face role almost all end game content. It just seems like the gulf is getting larger. PvP is different as I almost exclusively use engineers or science.
I am still wondering if this class gulf trend is something that goes on in other mmos - two is still my one and only love. Just frustrated today.
did the OP really just ask if engineers have any use anymore when season 8 has been a major focus on engineers???
Cruiser powers added that are in no way a negative to use (sorry romulans suck it long and suck it hard)
More Doffs are out to give more ground and space engineer abilities
2 ships copy pasted from one another that are for engineers to give them more dps or hell anyone really
a carrier that has an engineer bridge slot
the dyson ground battle zone wich is a own all with an engineer....
/boggle
Wait, two push shield mechs at once? :eek: I've never seen that (which is not to say it doesn't happen).
Physicist Kit ruins push shield mechs, though. Both the 1st one at 1/3 done, and the 2nd at 2/3 with the healy drones. You just have to open with the slow power - they don't take any offensive action other than pushing until they get into the center of the point, so slowing them right away gives you time to ruin their day.
Gravity slow, radiation DoT, everything's on fire, laugh maniacally. The fire is important to make the healing drones on the 2/3 one scatter so they're not, you know, healing it.
If you're having trouble with Voth rushing you, bring an Engineer BOff with mines.
I was doing this on a Sci alt with no particularly special equipment (just blue polyalloy and a generic blue shield) and no ground DOffs equipped. The only thing I had going for me was experience in the Battlezone, and that's something anyone can grind out. :P
For PVE:
In a team aspect, Science Captains have more use to the team than Engineers do. Sci Captains have abilities that can be huge benefits to the team. Engineer Captain abilities don't really, though they boost up the capabilities of their own ship even more with very high power and survivability.
SCI:
Subnucleonic Beam - Not too many instances in STO PVE where you have to worry about increasingly high buffs on an enemy. Only one that comes to mind really is the Crystaline Entity, esp. on Elite. Still, stripping buffs off an enemy has its uses.
Scattering Field - 30 seconds of resistances around your ship.
Science Fleet - Boosting shields and resisting drains for the team.
Sensor Scan - MASSIVE debuff on the target and anything immediately around it, as well as detecting through stealth. The debuff lands on the target(s) and everyone benefits from it.
Photonic Fleet - Spam for space combat, really.
ENG:
EPS Power Transfer - Broad bonus power for yourself or a single ally. But I'd dare say that Engineers will almost always use this for their own ship.
And that's it for Engineer Captain abilities.
Buuut, I do hear you on the DPS race that is STO PVE. If you're not doing at least decent damage, you are a hindrance to the overall effort.
The Voth Specific duty officer is optional, but nice. It drops from the Voth lockbox and is currently 750k on the exchange. Geologists are there for cooldown reduction and everyone has at least one biochemist: Dathan from the Facility 4028 arc.
Tactical officers aren't easy to optimize either, though they rely more on specific weapons/gear than duty officers for their main damage kit. Every class can be a tank, a damage dealer, or a utility on the ground. It's just a matter of changing kits.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Are you mocking me?? My sci does have phys kit and I had 2 eng boffs - but those 2 push mechs and all the other voth were just wrecking me - both me and my boffs died - I had to respwan and go back to face them again. Why I bothered is purely a question as to my sanity.