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Of Dreads and flagships

alsayyidalsayyid Member Posts: 115 Arc User
Perhaps some may recall the many talks that were brought up when the scimitar was released. All considerations of perceived power aside, one thing that was interesting that I feel could be expounded on is that of ship class and possible future ships.

I wonder what does a flagship entail? Is it merely a heavy cruiser?
If the scimitar is not the flagship, is there one coming for romulans?

What exactly is a dreadnought in STO? Is it a 5/3 tactical oriented type cruiser with a hangar?

What would a KDF dread be like? Will they get one?
Some believed the Bortas to be this, will it be given another variant or does the ship just not fit this class?

Will the Fed dread be changed or given a variant to be akin to a scimitar, or is the current version the envisioned dread? Or will Feds get a new ship in time?

I suppose one can say this is veiled scimitar envy and I would also suppose such an assumption to be correct in a way. But I find the idea of new ship classes and shaking up current ones to be to fascinating to let slide.
Post edited by alsayyid on
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Comments

  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Currently the Scimitar (and its variants) is to be considered the flagship of the Romulan Republic. See Ssphere if Influence.:)
  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    alsayyid wrote: »
    I wonder what does a flagship entail?
    A flagship is a vessel used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships, reflecting the custom of its commander, characteristically a flag officer, flying a distinguishing flag. Used more loosely, it is the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, typically the first, largest, fastest, most heavily armed, or best known.

    /10characters
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I think alsayyid meant in the context of the game and not in "gimme a definition from wikipedia".;)
  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    misterde3 wrote: »
    I think alsayyid meant in the context of the game and not in "gimme a definition from wikipedia".;)

    That's true in the context of the game, though. The Odyssey is the biggest Fed cruiser, the Bortas is the biggest KDF Battlecruiser, and the Scimitar is the biggest Warbird (best is subjective). They each have 3-pack releases and console set bonuses. That's about it, really.

    Dreadnoughts seem to have no definition. I think only the Gal-X has ever used the term.
  • chalpenchalpen Member Posts: 2,207 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    In the context of the game it is "the biggest hull and most civil servants sitting around in it".
    Should I start posting again after all this time?
  • madmoparmadmopar Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Would be cool if they made an actual dreadnought class. Super heavy ships that can mount a larger class of weapons that can't be put on non-dreadnoughts. Maybe even port and starboard heavy torpedo launchers.
  • theanothernametheanothername Member Posts: 1,511 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    alsayyid wrote: »
    Perhaps some may recall the many talks that were brought up when the scimitar was released. All considerations of perceived power aside, one thing that was interesting that I feel could be expounded on is that of ship class and possible future ships.

    I wonder what does a flagship entail? Is it merely a heavy cruiser?
    If the scimitar is not the flagship, is there one coming for romulans?

    The is the already mentioned flagship definition of any ship with a flagofficer in charge and the pride of the fleet & shining example definition of the flagship like the Enterprise.

    The STO "flagship packs" are bouth since you can use them only at maxlevel but they also represent the class used as the flagship.

    Closer definition I assume would be that these are the current ships-of-the-line with everything else around them being niche fillers and previous, outdated but still somewhat useful ships-of-the-line (storywise, not gameplaywise).
    alsayyid wrote: »
    What exactly is a dreadnought in STO? Is it a 5/3 tactical oriented type cruiser with a hangar?

    What would a KDF dread be like? Will they get one?
    Some believed the Bortas to be this, will it be given another variant or does the ship just not fit this class?

    Will the Fed dread be changed or given a variant to be akin to a scimitar, or is the current version the envisioned dread? Or will Feds get a new ship in time?

    I suppose one can say this is veiled scimitar envy and I would also suppose such an assumption to be correct in a way. But I find the idea of new ship classes and shaking up current ones to be to fascinating to let slide.

    The exact definition of a "dreadnought" in STO is: a cool sounding name for a battlecruiser originating from the three warpdrive design starfleet ships (which is why the GalX was the only Dread for a long time).

    Historically its a battleship with big guns.
  • zipagatzipagat Member Posts: 1,204 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Starfleet seems to assign its newest and most advanced Cruiser as its flagship. The design principle of the ship seems to be reflect the overall focus of Starfleet. Like the Ent D was a long range exploration vessel reflecting the era of relative calm and peace at the time. Its replacement the E is a much more tactically focused ship likely because every major power has taken a pop at the Federation in a small space of time.

    The KDF from what we have seen seem to follow a similar idea in that it is generally the most powerful and well armed cruiser available at the time. As seen when K'mpec used a Vor'cha as did Gowron for a period before switching to the Negh'var and now the Bortas.

    The Romulans is anyone's guess as the T'liss in Balance of Terror is mentioned as the Praetors flagship. Later it was shown to be a D7 that was the flagship when Kirk and Spock stole its cloaking device. Then in DS9 it is a D'deridex mentioned by Admiral Ross.
  • variant37variant37 Member Posts: 867 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    zipagat wrote: »
    The Romulans is anyone's guess as a flagship is never really mentioned that much.

    In-game, my vote goes to the Ha'apax. I base that solely on the fact that a Ha'apax is the ship you find D'Tan on when you visit the Romulan Flotilla in Tau Dewa.
  • terlokiterloki Member Posts: 287 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    variant37 wrote: »
    In-game, my vote goes to the Ha'apax. I base that solely on the fact that a Ha'apax is the ship you find D'Tan on when you visit the Romulan Flotilla in Tau Dewa.

    The Ha'Apax also makes more sense as representative of the "peaceful" Romulan Republic than a ship designed by a megalomaniac with intent to commit genocide and built around a weapon of mass destruction.

    Just sayin'.
    Admiral Katrina Tokareva - U.S.S. Cosmos, Yorktown-class Star Cruiser
    Admiral Dananra Lekall - R.R.W. Teverresh, Deihu-class Warbird
    General J'Kar son of K'tsulan - I.K.S. Dlahath, Vo'devwl-class Carrier
  • variant37variant37 Member Posts: 867 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    terloki wrote: »
    The Ha'Apax also makes more sense as representative of the "peaceful" Romulan Republic than a ship designed by a megalomaniac with intent to commit genocide and built around a weapon of mass destruction.

    Just sayin'.

    Yeah....I'm sure D'Tan wouldn't be too keen on reminding his people of Shinzon by pimping a Scimitar.
  • momawmomaw Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    We already have Federation and KDF "flagships". For the Feds it's the Odyssey (Enterprise-F) and for the KDF it's the Bortas. Blame Cryptic for making the Romulan version a completely different and wholly superior animal. :)
  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    terloki wrote: »
    The Ha'Apax also makes more sense as representative of the "peaceful" Romulan Republic than a ship designed by a megalomaniac with intent to commit genocide and built around a weapon of mass destruction.

    Just sayin'.

    The Romulan civilian refugees you talk to in The Vault consider Shinzon to be a hero and the last effective ruler of the Empire. I've also long held the belief that Nero would be a Romulan hero for defeating Worf and staving off the Klingon invasion with the Narrada.

    One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
  • mandoknight89mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    alsayyid wrote: »
    Perhaps some may recall the many talks that were brought up when the scimitar was released. All considerations of perceived power aside, one thing that was interesting that I feel could be expounded on is that of ship class and possible future ships.

    I wonder what does a flagship entail? Is it merely a heavy cruiser?
    If the scimitar is not the flagship, is there one coming for romulans?
    The "flagship" for the Romulans is the Falchion-class R.R.W. Lleiset, according to Sphere of Influence (though was possibly the unnamed Ha'apax in the flotilla before the Lleiset was commissioned). The Federation and Klingon flagships are 3-pack ships with a named "hero" NPC version, though Shon's Enterprise-F is the most visible of the flagships so far.

    Since the Lleiset is introduced in Sphere of Influence as being the Republic's counterpart to the Federation and Klingon Empire's flagships and the Scimitar is available in a 3-pack, it seems likely that there will not be a new flagship warbird battlecruiser 3-pack to displace the Lleiset as the Republic's flagship.
    alsayyid wrote: »
    What exactly is a dreadnought in STO? Is it a 5/3 tactical oriented type cruiser with a hangar?
    Dreadnought means different things in STO depending on the context.

    There are three playable "Dreadnoughts" in STO (5 if you count the Falchion and Tulwar separately): Scimitar (and variants) Dreadnought Warbird, Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier, and Galaxy-X Dreadnought Cruiser. All three have >40k hull, low base turn, ability to use dual cannons, at least 3 Tactical consoles, and access to at least a LtCdr Engineer seat. The Galaxy-X Dreadnought Cruiser is the only one with a Cdr Eng, and the only one without even a LtCdr Tac, and it also has the integrated Phaser Lance (not that that's much of a point in its favor at the moment barring edge optimization cases) and two Cruiser Commands instead of even one hangar bay.

    NPCs also have dreadnoughts, which are also frequently carriers, but more specifically just the biggest, toughest mobile NPCs in the faction group. Playable ships that are Dreadnoughts in the hands of NPCs but not designated Dreadnoughts for players are the Odyssey, Bortasqu', and Vo'quv.
    alsayyid wrote: »
    What would a KDF dread be like? Will they get one?
    Some believed the Bortas to be this, will it be given another variant or does the ship just not fit this class?
    The Bortasqu' is not designated a Dreadnought in-game, but is otherwise at least as much a Dreadnought as the Galaxy-X (multiple Tac consoles, lots of hull, uses dual cannons, has a big death gun as one of its special consoles, has horrible turn, has a pet even if it's not a hangar pet).
    alsayyid wrote: »
    Will the Fed dread be changed or given a variant to be akin to a scimitar, or is the current version the envisioned dread? Or will Feds get a new ship in time?
    A Fleet Galaxy-X Dreadnought Cruiser has been in the works for quite a while now...
  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    NPC wise I think Hassan The Undying's Ship, an Orion Warbarge is the Syndicate's Flag ship. Sadly Warbarge's are still unplayable.
  • alsayyidalsayyid Member Posts: 115 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Interesting responses. I find that the lack of consolidation for the term dreadnought in STO to be most peculiar. As has been mentioned there are npc versions of ships that are labeled as dread but their playable version is not. Likewise the Jemhadar Carrier is a dread but it shares only a few similarities with the Gal-x. Save for some points mentioned earlier.

    I think there should be a dread class that is distinguishable in some form. Perhaps to have a niche gameplay. I guess some would disagree. Escorts, cruisers, carriers, and science vessels for the most part are quite recognizable. But with additions to game play mechanics like flanking and arrays, maybe some more variety or some hybridization on some vessels could prove worthwhile.

    I kind of think that flagships should mean more than big model. Somehow I imagine them to have a heavy support/command type role and be heavy ships of the line. They would also embody something of traditional design philosophy of their faction. Not sure how that would work out. I dislike ships falling into obscurity as some seem to unfortunately.
  • momawmomaw Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    In NPC terms, "dreadnaught" is a generic size class used internally for mission encounter planning. NPC ships go like this:

    frigate (Mesh Weaver, Palisade, Bird of Prey)
    cruiser (Orb Weaver, Bastion, Vor'cha)
    battleship (Recluse, Bulwark, Negh'var)
    dreadnaught (Tarantula, Citadel, Vo'quv)
  • unangbangkayunangbangkay Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    alsayyid wrote: »
    Interesting responses. I find that the lack of consolidation for the term dreadnought in STO to be most peculiar.

    This is because Cryptic themselves have barely figured out what it truly means to be a dreadnought in STO. The Destroyer and Dreadnought "classes" in STO are new compared to the early trinities of the Federation Cruiser-Science Vessel-Escort and KDF Raider-Raptor-Battle Cruiser.

    As more ships were introduced, with hybrid roles, differing sizes, gimmicks, models, and hangar bays, Cryptic was forced to come up with new terms to describe the ships and as a result they don't always match common perception or even common usage patterns.

    Personally I like that class description and "role" in STO is fairly fluid. Some folks don't because it makes it harder to fit everything into convenient boxes and the spectrum of min-maxed builds, but diversity was always a hallmark of Star Trek's history, so it's ultimately fine.

    Then again that happens in real life too. Whereas the term was once limited to fast, maneuverable vessel meant to screen heavy cruisers and battleships, today's destroyers are the heaviest combat ship in the sea for almost all navies outside the US and Russia. And some modern-day destroyers are as large as postwar cruisers. Like in STO (the Chimera Heavy Destroyer is almost the size of the Sovereign Assault Cruiser), though as often as not that's an issue of the game's inaccurate model scaling as much as role and design elision .

    I kind of think that flagships should mean more than big model. Somehow I imagine them to have a heavy support/command type role and be heavy ships of the line. They would also embody something of traditional design philosophy of their faction. Not sure how that would work out. I dislike ships falling into obscurity as some seem to unfortunately.

    Flagships need not always be the most advanced ship in the fleet. The USS Prometheus was arguably the most advanced ship in Starfleet at the time of its debut in Voyager (which was timed at the height of the Dominion War), but the Enterprise still remained the flagship.

    Indeed, the thing that determines flagship status isn't even ship model, but a role in command. In fact, the commanding officer of a fleet could "transfer his flag" to a rowboat and THAT would become the flagship of his or her fleet.

    Keeping that in mind, both the Bortasqu' and Odyssey are fitting symbols both of the philosophies of the KDF and Starfleet, even if they're eclipsed in terms of tactical potential by other ships.

    As for the Scimitar line being flagship of the Romulan Republic....well, there's name value in that.

    Plsu, it may have been Shinzon's flagship, but it was also a triumph of technological design and a testament to Reman ingenuity, and the Romulan Republic is all about Reman equality (presumably).
  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,724 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    momaw wrote: »
    In NPC terms, "dreadnaught" is a generic size class used internally for mission encounter planning. NPC ships go like this:

    frigate (Mesh Weaver, Palisade, Bird of Prey)
    cruiser (Orb Weaver, Bastion, Vor'cha)
    battleship (Recluse, Bulwark, Negh'var)
    dreadnaught (Tarantula, Citadel, Vo'quv)

    This, there are many ships classified as 'dreadnoughts' the foundry. Even the Nausicaan have (a rather interesting looking) one.

    As for playable ships, I think Bortasqu, Odyssey, Scimitar, and twin-deck carriers are the closest we're going to get to Super-Capital Ships.

    Historically, Dreadnoughts were made to basically be unrivaled mobile fortresses - "Dread naught the wrath of god." However, they become an obsolete concept with the development of long range precision weapons(aircraft and guided missiles).
  • tinkerstormtinkerstorm Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    alsayyid wrote: »
    I wonder what does a flagship entail?
    Wikipedia sums it up nicely: "A flagship is a vessel used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships...In common naval use, the term flagship is fundamentally a temporary designation; the flagship is wherever the admiral's flag is being flown."

    However, if you are JJ Abrams then you have no clue what a flagship is because you are confounded and befuddled by the English language.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    All this attention to more unique features to ship types like Cruisers with comm array commands and the Raider's flanking bonus makes me want unique abilities for dreadnoughts(and to lesser extents, frigates and corvettes). Retroactively give player ships whose NPC versions are dreadnoughts the labels as well as the abilities.
  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Wikipedia sums it up nicely: "A flagship is a vessel used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships...In common naval use, the term flagship is fundamentally a temporary designation; the flagship is wherever the admiral's flag is being flown."

    However, if you are JJ Abrams then you have no clue what a flagship is because you are confounded and befuddled by the English language.

    You missed the second part, which I quoted on the first page.
    Used more loosely, it is the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, typically the first, largest, fastest, most heavily armed, or best known.

    . . . which is exactly how Abrams uses it. And TNG. And TOS.
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited December 2013
    alsayyid wrote: »
    Perhaps some may recall the many talks that were brought up when the scimitar was released. All considerations of perceived power aside, one thing that was interesting that I feel could be expounded on is that of ship class and possible future ships.

    I wonder what does a flagship entail? Is it merely a heavy cruiser?
    If the scimitar is not the flagship, is there one coming for romulans?

    What exactly is a dreadnought in STO? Is it a 5/3 tactical oriented type cruiser with a hangar?

    What would a KDF dread be like? Will they get one?
    Some believed the Bortas to be this, will it be given another variant or does the ship just not fit this class?

    Will the Fed dread be changed or given a variant to be akin to a scimitar, or is the current version the envisioned dread? Or will Feds get a new ship in time?

    I suppose one can say this is veiled scimitar envy and I would also suppose such an assumption to be correct in a way. But I find the idea of new ship classes and shaking up current ones to be to fascinating to let slide.


    On the Federation side the Term battleship/Flagship means

    Fleet repair ship
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
  • tinkerstormtinkerstorm Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    You missed the second part, which I quoted on the first page.



    . . . which is exactly how Abrams uses it. And TNG. And TOS.
    "Used more loosely" is an excuse used by people who do not understand the English language. Or those who confuse a clothing store for a naval vessel.
  • edited December 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • otowiotowi Member Posts: 600 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Some one said that the most advanced ship tend to get the flagship status in Starfleet...

    If that were the case, should we not be seeing an Enterprise of the Avenger class???

    AFAIK, the Avenger class is currently the most advanced ship of the line in Starfleet.

    But I digress.
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    The flagship is where the squad/fleet commander has his/her flag.
    It's that simple.
    During battle wth the German battleship Scharnhorst the flagship of the 10th cruiser squadron was the HMS Belfast...a light cruiser.:rolleyes:
  • imadude3imadude3 Member Posts: 825 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    otowi wrote: »
    Some one said that the most advanced ship tend to get the flagship status in Starfleet...

    If that were the case, should we not be seeing an Enterprise of the Avenger class???

    AFAIK, the Avenger class is currently the most advanced ship of the line in Starfleet.

    But I digress.

    no the avenger is the most POWERFULL ship in starfleet. the most advanced ship i believe is the vesta class
    Maintaining peace through overwhelming firepower.
  • otowiotowi Member Posts: 600 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Hmmm... Thought the info said that the Avenger is the most advanced ship, but I could be wrong, but the Avenger is still one of the most advanced ships of the line, or am I dead wrong??
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    otowi wrote: »
    Some one said that the most advanced ship tend to get the flagship status in Starfleet...

    If that were the case, should we not be seeing an Enterprise of the Avenger class???

    AFAIK, the Avenger class is currently the most advanced ship of the line in Starfleet.

    But I digress.
    The Avenger is a warship (IE like the Defiant). Starfleet first goal is (was?) exploration. The Enterprise is a warship, an exploration ship, a science ship and a diplomatic ship. The Avenger is all about war.
    imadude3 wrote: »
    no the avenger is the most POWERFULL ship in starfleet. the most advanced ship i believe is the vesta class
    The Vesta is not so new. The Odyssey is new.

    I think having the Scimitar as the Romulan flagship is a bad idea. While the Odyssey and the Bortasqu' are new ship, with state of the art equipment, the scimitar is a decades old ship, built by a Human renegade (leading the Reman, but it was still a Human), when the Republic was not born yet.

    The Haakona would have made a lot more sense.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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