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Of Dreads and flagships
alsayyid
Member Posts: 115 Arc User
Perhaps some may recall the many talks that were brought up when the scimitar was released. All considerations of perceived power aside, one thing that was interesting that I feel could be expounded on is that of ship class and possible future ships.
I wonder what does a flagship entail? Is it merely a heavy cruiser?
If the scimitar is not the flagship, is there one coming for romulans?
What exactly is a dreadnought in STO? Is it a 5/3 tactical oriented type cruiser with a hangar?
What would a KDF dread be like? Will they get one?
Some believed the Bortas to be this, will it be given another variant or does the ship just not fit this class?
Will the Fed dread be changed or given a variant to be akin to a scimitar, or is the current version the envisioned dread? Or will Feds get a new ship in time?
I suppose one can say this is veiled scimitar envy and I would also suppose such an assumption to be correct in a way. But I find the idea of new ship classes and shaking up current ones to be to fascinating to let slide.
I wonder what does a flagship entail? Is it merely a heavy cruiser?
If the scimitar is not the flagship, is there one coming for romulans?
What exactly is a dreadnought in STO? Is it a 5/3 tactical oriented type cruiser with a hangar?
What would a KDF dread be like? Will they get one?
Some believed the Bortas to be this, will it be given another variant or does the ship just not fit this class?
Will the Fed dread be changed or given a variant to be akin to a scimitar, or is the current version the envisioned dread? Or will Feds get a new ship in time?
I suppose one can say this is veiled scimitar envy and I would also suppose such an assumption to be correct in a way. But I find the idea of new ship classes and shaking up current ones to be to fascinating to let slide.
Post edited by alsayyid on
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That's true in the context of the game, though. The Odyssey is the biggest Fed cruiser, the Bortas is the biggest KDF Battlecruiser, and the Scimitar is the biggest Warbird (best is subjective). They each have 3-pack releases and console set bonuses. That's about it, really.
Dreadnoughts seem to have no definition. I think only the Gal-X has ever used the term.
The is the already mentioned flagship definition of any ship with a flagofficer in charge and the pride of the fleet & shining example definition of the flagship like the Enterprise.
The STO "flagship packs" are bouth since you can use them only at maxlevel but they also represent the class used as the flagship.
Closer definition I assume would be that these are the current ships-of-the-line with everything else around them being niche fillers and previous, outdated but still somewhat useful ships-of-the-line (storywise, not gameplaywise).
The exact definition of a "dreadnought" in STO is: a cool sounding name for a battlecruiser originating from the three warpdrive design starfleet ships (which is why the GalX was the only Dread for a long time).
Historically its a battleship with big guns.
The KDF from what we have seen seem to follow a similar idea in that it is generally the most powerful and well armed cruiser available at the time. As seen when K'mpec used a Vor'cha as did Gowron for a period before switching to the Negh'var and now the Bortas.
The Romulans is anyone's guess as the T'liss in Balance of Terror is mentioned as the Praetors flagship. Later it was shown to be a D7 that was the flagship when Kirk and Spock stole its cloaking device. Then in DS9 it is a D'deridex mentioned by Admiral Ross.
In-game, my vote goes to the Ha'apax. I base that solely on the fact that a Ha'apax is the ship you find D'Tan on when you visit the Romulan Flotilla in Tau Dewa.
The Ha'Apax also makes more sense as representative of the "peaceful" Romulan Republic than a ship designed by a megalomaniac with intent to commit genocide and built around a weapon of mass destruction.
Just sayin'.
Admiral Dananra Lekall - R.R.W. Teverresh, Deihu-class Warbird
General J'Kar son of K'tsulan - I.K.S. Dlahath, Vo'devwl-class Carrier
Yeah....I'm sure D'Tan wouldn't be too keen on reminding his people of Shinzon by pimping a Scimitar.
The Romulan civilian refugees you talk to in The Vault consider Shinzon to be a hero and the last effective ruler of the Empire. I've also long held the belief that Nero would be a Romulan hero for defeating Worf and staving off the Klingon invasion with the Narrada.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Since the Lleiset is introduced in Sphere of Influence as being the Republic's counterpart to the Federation and Klingon Empire's flagships and the Scimitar is available in a 3-pack, it seems likely that there will not be a new flagship warbird battlecruiser 3-pack to displace the Lleiset as the Republic's flagship. Dreadnought means different things in STO depending on the context.
There are three playable "Dreadnoughts" in STO (5 if you count the Falchion and Tulwar separately): Scimitar (and variants) Dreadnought Warbird, Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier, and Galaxy-X Dreadnought Cruiser. All three have >40k hull, low base turn, ability to use dual cannons, at least 3 Tactical consoles, and access to at least a LtCdr Engineer seat. The Galaxy-X Dreadnought Cruiser is the only one with a Cdr Eng, and the only one without even a LtCdr Tac, and it also has the integrated Phaser Lance (not that that's much of a point in its favor at the moment barring edge optimization cases) and two Cruiser Commands instead of even one hangar bay.
NPCs also have dreadnoughts, which are also frequently carriers, but more specifically just the biggest, toughest mobile NPCs in the faction group. Playable ships that are Dreadnoughts in the hands of NPCs but not designated Dreadnoughts for players are the Odyssey, Bortasqu', and Vo'quv. The Bortasqu' is not designated a Dreadnought in-game, but is otherwise at least as much a Dreadnought as the Galaxy-X (multiple Tac consoles, lots of hull, uses dual cannons, has a big death gun as one of its special consoles, has horrible turn, has a pet even if it's not a hangar pet). A Fleet Galaxy-X Dreadnought Cruiser has been in the works for quite a while now...
I think there should be a dread class that is distinguishable in some form. Perhaps to have a niche gameplay. I guess some would disagree. Escorts, cruisers, carriers, and science vessels for the most part are quite recognizable. But with additions to game play mechanics like flanking and arrays, maybe some more variety or some hybridization on some vessels could prove worthwhile.
I kind of think that flagships should mean more than big model. Somehow I imagine them to have a heavy support/command type role and be heavy ships of the line. They would also embody something of traditional design philosophy of their faction. Not sure how that would work out. I dislike ships falling into obscurity as some seem to unfortunately.
frigate (Mesh Weaver, Palisade, Bird of Prey)
cruiser (Orb Weaver, Bastion, Vor'cha)
battleship (Recluse, Bulwark, Negh'var)
dreadnaught (Tarantula, Citadel, Vo'quv)
This is because Cryptic themselves have barely figured out what it truly means to be a dreadnought in STO. The Destroyer and Dreadnought "classes" in STO are new compared to the early trinities of the Federation Cruiser-Science Vessel-Escort and KDF Raider-Raptor-Battle Cruiser.
As more ships were introduced, with hybrid roles, differing sizes, gimmicks, models, and hangar bays, Cryptic was forced to come up with new terms to describe the ships and as a result they don't always match common perception or even common usage patterns.
Personally I like that class description and "role" in STO is fairly fluid. Some folks don't because it makes it harder to fit everything into convenient boxes and the spectrum of min-maxed builds, but diversity was always a hallmark of Star Trek's history, so it's ultimately fine.
Then again that happens in real life too. Whereas the term was once limited to fast, maneuverable vessel meant to screen heavy cruisers and battleships, today's destroyers are the heaviest combat ship in the sea for almost all navies outside the US and Russia. And some modern-day destroyers are as large as postwar cruisers. Like in STO (the Chimera Heavy Destroyer is almost the size of the Sovereign Assault Cruiser), though as often as not that's an issue of the game's inaccurate model scaling as much as role and design elision .
Flagships need not always be the most advanced ship in the fleet. The USS Prometheus was arguably the most advanced ship in Starfleet at the time of its debut in Voyager (which was timed at the height of the Dominion War), but the Enterprise still remained the flagship.
Indeed, the thing that determines flagship status isn't even ship model, but a role in command. In fact, the commanding officer of a fleet could "transfer his flag" to a rowboat and THAT would become the flagship of his or her fleet.
Keeping that in mind, both the Bortasqu' and Odyssey are fitting symbols both of the philosophies of the KDF and Starfleet, even if they're eclipsed in terms of tactical potential by other ships.
As for the Scimitar line being flagship of the Romulan Republic....well, there's name value in that.
Plsu, it may have been Shinzon's flagship, but it was also a triumph of technological design and a testament to Reman ingenuity, and the Romulan Republic is all about Reman equality (presumably).
This, there are many ships classified as 'dreadnoughts' the foundry. Even the Nausicaan have (a rather interesting looking) one.
As for playable ships, I think Bortasqu, Odyssey, Scimitar, and twin-deck carriers are the closest we're going to get to Super-Capital Ships.
Historically, Dreadnoughts were made to basically be unrivaled mobile fortresses - "Dread naught the wrath of god." However, they become an obsolete concept with the development of long range precision weapons(aircraft and guided missiles).
However, if you are JJ Abrams then you have no clue what a flagship is because you are confounded and befuddled by the English language.
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You missed the second part, which I quoted on the first page.
. . . which is exactly how Abrams uses it. And TNG. And TOS.
On the Federation side the Term battleship/Flagship means
Fleet repair ship
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
If that were the case, should we not be seeing an Enterprise of the Avenger class???
AFAIK, the Avenger class is currently the most advanced ship of the line in Starfleet.
But I digress.
It's that simple.
During battle wth the German battleship Scharnhorst the flagship of the 10th cruiser squadron was the HMS Belfast...a light cruiser.:rolleyes:
no the avenger is the most POWERFULL ship in starfleet. the most advanced ship i believe is the vesta class
The Vesta is not so new. The Odyssey is new.
I think having the Scimitar as the Romulan flagship is a bad idea. While the Odyssey and the Bortasqu' are new ship, with state of the art equipment, the scimitar is a decades old ship, built by a Human renegade (leading the Reman, but it was still a Human), when the Republic was not born yet.
The Haakona would have made a lot more sense.