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Why are players so disapproving of Thalaron pulse?
tilarta
Member Posts: 1,801 Arc User
Whenever I've mentioned I'm a fan of Thalaron pulse, some players have responded negatively.
The worst guy maintained that the set consoles were useless and that I should replace them with something else.
Now, let me be very clear, the only reason I am using Scimitar is because I love the combat advantages provided by the Scimitar console set.
They are:
Secondary Shielding (shield remains operational while cloaked).
Singularity Cloak Penalty Reduction 50%
Cloaked Barrage (can fire for 10seconds and not decloak).
Enhanced Maneuvering Thrusters (improved manuevering while cloak is operational).
And I particularly enjoy the Thalaron pulse, useful or not, because it's fun to see it happen.
Also, I did a test once and the Thalaron pulse is a pretty significant damage spike (if my Auxilliary power is charged up to 50 by getting my Singularity charge to maximum).
So I'm confused as to why anyone would think it's not worth using these skills.
And some guidelines before you post a response:
If you're looking for a fight or a flamewar, go elsewhere.
Nor do I want build advice, so don't offer it please.
The worst guy maintained that the set consoles were useless and that I should replace them with something else.
Now, let me be very clear, the only reason I am using Scimitar is because I love the combat advantages provided by the Scimitar console set.
They are:
Secondary Shielding (shield remains operational while cloaked).
Singularity Cloak Penalty Reduction 50%
Cloaked Barrage (can fire for 10seconds and not decloak).
Enhanced Maneuvering Thrusters (improved manuevering while cloak is operational).
And I particularly enjoy the Thalaron pulse, useful or not, because it's fun to see it happen.
Also, I did a test once and the Thalaron pulse is a pretty significant damage spike (if my Auxilliary power is charged up to 50 by getting my Singularity charge to maximum).
So I'm confused as to why anyone would think it's not worth using these skills.
And some guidelines before you post a response:
If you're looking for a fight or a flamewar, go elsewhere.
Nor do I want build advice, so don't offer it please.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Post edited by tilarta on
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Bye / Qapla' / Jolan tru
Til,
The reason why is because a good pressure damage Scimitar is cheaper to build (assuming you don't include a Marion), and doesn't leave you motionless for several seconds while the pulse is charging up.
I agree with them that the exclusive consoles aren't optimal for finishing content faster. But hey, it's your ship and if it brings you enjoyment, go for it.
Plus the scimitar's wings are a complete waste of space without it, since their only purpose is to channel the thalaron pulse. :P
Peacekeeper High Command
Scorpius - Zelbinion Mk II
However, having a fed admiral using a tharalon weapon seems counter to the STO ethics and law.
Wait, this is a game...
KILL EVERYTHING
That and it does not fire instantly, but needs a long chargeup time.
Here is something i had posted a while back in another thread. As mentioned it is most effective when used vs a group of bad guys.
As for the Thalaron Pulse itself it seems like a decent amount of damage. But keep in mind that during the 12 seconds it is spooling up you arent doing anything, no damage or healing. Add the damage from the initial blast+the DoT effect and divide by 24 and thats how much dps you just did for that one ability (assuming the bad guy doesnt die before hte DoT effect wears off).
Here is an example using numbers from my ship. I'm at 105 aux power, but i have no science related skills. Aux power and particle generators increase damage to Thalaron pulse.
32000 for the initial pulse, 2700 per second every 12 seconds after the pulse. Thats a total damage of about 64000.
A 12 second spool time and an initial blast of 32000 equals 2666 dps. Versus one target that is 2666 dps...if i can maintain a steady 3k dps over 12 seconds then i've beaten the amount of damage the initial thalaron blast does. If there had been 7 mobs instead then you just did 2666x7=18662 dps. of course you have to worry about stuff moving out of the way of your weapon cone and if you have aggro you cant heal so you would have to pop something like tac team or RSP before you pop Thalaron pulse if you have lots of aggro and your shields will go down during the spool up.
The DoT is roughly 50% of the total damage. But if the DOT isnt allowed to run its full 12 second duration it is mostly wasted. So in order to get the full damage effect the bad guys would have to be flying around for at least 24 seconds. Thats zero-12 just for the initial blast, then 12-24 for the DoT.
Depends on what consoles you define as necessary. Seems most players like to use the same set of consoles and just leave space for 1 or 2 extras.
Ok, I'm not going to go on a nerd-spurge about lore even though I really want to, I'm guessing that they made it that way to balance it, which seems fair enough on the surface but surely it's already balanced by the fact that it leaves you dead in the water for twelve seconds and also that most people don't have one. PVP or PVE it's balanced by it's very nature, it sounds like it was nerfed right out of the gate, in fact, it sounds like halving both of those times would make it feel like the super-weapon it's supposed to be without unbalancing it, I'd even go so far as to say that it sounds like it's not worth the purchase.
Still, as has already been said, if it brings you enjoyment, that's all that really counts.
I'm not THAT difficult to please, I just have a very low tolerance threshold for stupid BS! - George Carlin.
Does it really matter since Feds can't fly the Scimitar?
But yeah, don't try to work it in to your standard firing chain.
I engage Secondary Shielding before firing, so in order to stop the pulse firing, the enemy ships have to get through two layers of shields and bring my hull down to zero in order to stop the pulse hitting them.
All before the pulse fires.
Under normal circumstances, I've never encountered an enemy vessel with the firepower capable of doing that.
Also, typically I reserve it for the least manuerable ships (like Borg Tactical cubes or Tholian Taruntalas) who are incapable of getting out of the firing cone.
And just to make extra sure, I tractor beam them before firing (if they're a more agile ship).
Nitpicky point, I'm technically a Starfleet captain, even though I'm a Romulan.
So what does Starfleet have to say about that?
Do they claim since I'm part of the Romulan Republic, they're not responsible for me having this highly illegal weapon? :rolleyes:
Or any action I take using this weapon on their enemies?
I'm just picturing the scene now:
Klingon Ambassador: We protest the use of this illegal weapon on our forces.
<I say nothing, but tap the Thalaron button significantly>.
Klingon Ambassador: Protest withdrawn.
And as an aside, why does everyone go for DHCs?
Yes, I know they're a high DPS weapon, but for someone like me, it would be boring to equip the same weapon on every ship you use!
Where's the variety?
The challenge in using a weapon that takes you outside your comfort zone and forces you to change your tactics?
It's like turning every ship into an Escort, regardless of it's intended purpose.
You may as well just fly an Escort and not bother flying it in the first place!
For the record, I use dual beam arrays in the forward slots of my Scimitar.
Just because I wanted to test the feasibility of a ship that was geared towards a forward beam array pattern.
I'm not sure if it fires all 10 at once, but it seems to fire a lot of beams forward.
Also, it forces me to keep the Scimitar facing forward, so I don't go broadside attacking and therefore, the target is always in my Thalaron targeting cone if I choose to fire it.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Yah and those are mostly defensive abilities...defensive abilities. When it is spooling up your other weapons arent shooting, your torpedos arent shooting. That's 12 seconds of zero outgoing dps 12 seconds in which your teammates could kill the mob(s) before your weapon even goes off, 12 seconds during which the mobs could scatter. You would have to rely on somebody else to keep all the mobs clumped up unless you want to use your LCdr universal slot for a science boff that can equip a gravity well so that you know for sure the mobs dont scatter.
If you can figure out how to use your skills before you activate thalaron pulse then thats good. But thats the easy part...the hard part is making sure you are maximizing the effect of the weapon. My figures in my previous post was me at 100 or so aux power, not every Scim runs that much aux. If i take my Scim down to my combat aux power level Thalaron pulse only hits for 29.5k with the initial blast. If i use it on just 1 target thats about 2500 dps. Two of my DHC (or 3 beam arrays) set to autoattack will do that much single target dps. But of course you really want to use Thalaron pulse for AOE situations right? well for comparison if i were to pop CSV2 it gives me me about 6k single target dps over 10 seconds, multiply that to figure out how much it does for aoe...that's just with 4 dhc, i'm not even factoring in my torpedo launcher, KCB, omni ap, and turret.
EDIT: if you want a good, real live test of how well the thalaron performs use it in Infected Elite, if you havent already done so. Hopefully the group you are in will do the 10% rule, then pop the nanites, then the transformer. If all 4 nanites are popped at the same time then all spheres will exit the gate at the same time. You can either try to take them all on your own, or better yet go to engage them when the rest (or most) of your team goes to engage. Take note of whether the rest of the team is really geared or not, how much they are focusing on that group of spheres that spawn from the gate, etc.
Actually, you are "technically" (i.e. according to in-game lore, not your role-playing), a ROMULAN REPUBLIC captain, allied with Starfleet. Though you may fly with Starfleet ships and occasionally deign to take orders from Starfleet admirals, you are NOT a Starfleet officer, and that means you aren't subject to their directives or that of the Federation.
Sure, they might be cagey whenever you spool up your Thalaron pulse, but I'd bet they're willing to look the other way as long as you're using it in a "local" manner, against "real" enemies like the Borg or whoever. Sela and Hakeev have no such scruples, which is why she was a Bad Person in Starfleet's eyes.
Notice that even despite the illegality of Thalaron weapons both Starfleet and the KDF leave Obisek, the Reman Resistance leader, alone, and he has his own Thalarons.
I mean, think about it. Both Starfleet and the KDF have bent over BACKWARDS to accomodate the Romulan Republic's alliance. They've tolerated romulan captains working for both sides in the war, they allow up to Tier 4 ships to be freely exchanged and captained by Romulans with NO access to Warbirds on their end (besides the hobbled borgified Tal Shiar ships the Ferengi are hawking). They freely allow access to Earth Spacedock and the First City, including their supplies, training facilities, and everything, but DO NOT have access to the New Romulus Command Center. They throw HEAPS of resources into helping construction and research on New Romulus, AND they let the ROMULANS take the lead during the Dyson Sphere mission, even SUSPENDING the most efficient way to enforce the Omega Directive by forcing an invasion of the Solanae Sphere instead of just blowing up the Jouret Iconian gate.
As for my personal "head-canon", the Thalaron weapons used by the Romulan Republic are "lesser" versions that don't have the "infinite expansion" problem that makes them illegal (see: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Thalaron_radiation). This justifies both the limited "range cone" of the current Scimi Thalaron targeting system as well as the fact that it's only being used on a single ship.
I enjoy the Thalaron Pulse too. Pop a battery if u have some points invested there or just adjust your aux power before firing, stack up a few shield defence abilities like EPtS, TSS and the Secondary Shields along with some offensive buffs and you are fine while firing. And if you are specced right, and throw some debuffs too, like sensor scan or fire on my mark, it can do huge damage. I've done even 110k crits with it. Once in Crystalin Entity i summed up about 500k worth of damage from all the targets that got hit. That argument "but you can do xxk DPS in those 12 secs" ppl are bringing works the other way around too. 500k in 12 secs is about 41k DPS lol
Because in the end and in PvE you'll get a better performance when you slot something else in those 3 console slots.
The Thalaron pulse is nice when you get a few targets bunched up. A lot of times, even when it's multiple targets that are somewhat sturdy (spheres in ISE for example), they are gone or partially gone by the time the player has positioned himself and the pulse has charged up. There might also be times when there is simply no effective way to fire it throughout a whole STF.
Then we have the console abilities, which are nice to have, but pretty much unnecessary in PvE and they're taking away valuable console space. Even if you don't slot damage-improving consoles, you're usually better off with regular ones.
As with most (same with Odyssey, Bortasqu or Andorian escort for example) ship-specific set, this is the best and prime reason why people are and should be using them.
There are better and less situational consoles and abilites out there to slot, but if the fun and joy you get from having a somewhat different ship with unique abilities outweighs the loss in performance for you, then by all means, use the set and the Thalaron.
I really like this side.
As for the damage, even if you dont use FAW on your scimitar and use single target beams, you are doing way more dmg in 12sec than with this pulse. And you can slot three actually useful consoles. Same with DHCs.
Two nitpicks otherwise an excellent summation:
First, Jouret is a ROMULAN system. Fly into an ally's territory and destroy some of their stuff and see how long they remain allies. Why do you think Shon got a headache when the Klingon captain would support the romulans if the federation got itchy.
Second, even Shon thought better of destroying the gate after the omega particles were discovered. It is the only access point to neutralize them. It was mentioned early in the briefing that it already had enough particles to nullify warp travel in the alpha and beta quadrants and if left alone the whole galaxy. So they can't just close the door and hope no one finds them or does anything mean with them. They have to be neutralized at the source. Since it is again, a ROMULAN, system they have an equal to greater stake in the endeavor.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I suppose if you are riding the slow boat to work, sure.
Aside from the fact that most things should just be outright vaporized in the time-frame it takes to get off a Thalaron pulse, you seem to consistently be missing the point several other posters are making.
In the time it takes you to fire a Thalaron and let the entire DOT work, you could have done more damage with BFAW/CSV & basic weapons fire.
PvE is cute.
I'm afraid I'm never going to accept that logic.
If it is indeed logic......
My major gripe with cloaks is that when you cloak, your shields go offline and therefore, you're vulnerable to attack if the NPCs should happen to detect your cloaked vessel (yes, that has happened to me!).
The Singularity Distribution Console gives you shields while cloaked and also, it reduces the penalty to cloak relating to Singularity charge.
Since I run at high Singularity charge (because my Scimitar is configured to get extra Aux power from Singularity charge level), I need that.
Cloaked Barrage I've also found useful.
The major use I found is against Tholian Vault Weavers.
If they're accompanied by an escort group, I hit Cloaked Barrage, pop the Vault Weaver and then Evasive away before they realize I was there.
Not to mention sometimes I've used that skill to launch Scorpion Fighters when cloaked as a distraction.
Secondary Shielding is the most useful power of all of them.
Facing a tough enemy or about to be annihilated?
Hit Secondary Shields and gain some breathing space to keep firing, get out of range or repair your ship!
So that is why I'm highly skeptical as to the claims the consoles should be replaced with something more practical.
In my analysis, you're gimping your Scimitar by removing them.
In which case, you may as well go play with a D'Deridex, since you've just removed everything that was unique about the Scimitar.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Exactly right. :rolleyes:
Testwise its actually pimping the scimitar. You only have 5 consoleslots you can -without gimping your scimitar- use. Now you have 3 consoles as a rom, you should use, namely Assimilated Module, Plasmonic Leech and Valdore-Console, the latter one simply out-shielding the Secondary Shields. So you either have to cut one of these Consoles or sacrifice a Tactical one.
Then if your scimitar is build good, you really have a hard time achieving GDF with it. Thats why I cloak and use Brace for impact, so a plasma torp can it me without killing me, basically a cloak-shield would strip me of this opportunaty.
And the cloaked Barrage is not really something useful. I shoot a group, they should, I tank it. It might be a nice pvp- console, but I dont see a point in pve.
If you instead slot those 3 consoles + Embassy-ones or lobi (tachyokinetic, bioneural) or zero-point, its far more worthwhile.
If you still want to use it, then just use it, but its just to meager of a bonus -lucky hits aside- to say its as good as a damage-wise-build. Especially if you take all cooldowns into account. It just doesnt sum up.
As for a side-note: Someone said something about a dps-race. Basically, dps get the job done. And while I am a high-dpser, I am glad for anyone making more than 6k and knowing what he does. I had a 6k vesta with me in CSE last time, and it had an easy time with one raptorspawn. 6k is around the number you can do with crappy gear while role-playing.
But most ppl dont even get there and are wondering why they cant do CSE or HSE. And I am really tired of seeing ppl having less then 1mio damage done in HSE (enemy hp around 15-18mio). That is simply not playing, thats on the verge of leeching (if you know you dont do damage, dont join the most difficult stf damage and tanking-wise). And most scimitars Ive seen, especially with thalaron pulse, just fall under this category. And honestly, 6k on a scimitar is not really worth mentioning, since this ship is simply a league of its own.
The consoles are ok...but remember you only have 5 console slots to play around with. You do have 10 total, but almost everybody will put tac consoles in their 5 tac console slots (assuming you are in a scim), that leaves the other 5 for consoles that you want. While the 3 consoles may be useful, you are still competing for space with other, better consoles. Plasmonic Leech, Valdore console, Assimilated Console (plus KCB for 2 pc bonus), zero pt console if you want 2 pc bonus for plasma damage. tachyonic converter console with its 46% turn rate and its crit and crit severity.
That last sentence that you posted which is in the quote above? i mean...i'm not going to tell you how to play, but you are flying a Scim which is really good at killing stuff. And 2 of the 3 consoles are defensive in purpose. What people are suggesting is that you ditch those consoles and replace them with better offensive consoles to help you better kill stuff, which is what the Scimitar is good at. I'm not going to even use 'canon' reasons as an excuse to why you should ditch those consoles. If you want to use canon reasons to defend why you should keep them thats fine. But if you are having to resort to canon reasons just to justify keeping them, then uhhh yah. I used them too, but once i was comfortable and i wasnt getting popped and i saw that i didnt need them anymore i got rid of them for better consoles.
EDIT: for comparison here are what some of the other consoles give you:
Plasmonic Leech = +15-20 power in all subsystems, that equals roughly 8% defense, some turn rate, some extra shield resist more aux and more weapon power (dps)
Valdore Console = on my ship that has XI rare consoles, XII vr rep or exchange weapons my heals average about 1k, 2.5k or 4k if i crit. If you've never used the valdore console before you dont just get one 1k heal or one 2.5k heal. If the console procs, it is enough to bring a 9k shield facing from empty to full in under a second. You get a 3-4 1k heals and 3-4 4k heals in under a second....it heals so much that if this game had an overhealing meter my paladin class lead from WoW would probably give me a high five for overhealing so much.
Assimilated Console = goes well with KCB, omega buff stacks i believe and it helps your weapon power stay closer to max by minimizing drain
Tachyonic Console = 46% turn rate from a single console...brb one sec, gonna go do donuts in my Scimitar in front of ESD
If you've never even used those other consoles then your "analysis" is incomplete. I thought that the Valdore console was just being hyped up and i was wary of dropping my secondary shield console for it. But once i caved and finally put it on i was very impressed.
Actually, most people I've talked to with Scimitars use a whole bunch of Beam Arrays, APB, and FAW. Stuff just dies against that Scimitar using Alpha + DEM3 + MFD.
Ok let's start off with the canon-wise or even game-canon-wise reason I don't like Thalaron - It's banned weaponry, since its use in Nemesis it's been seen as a WMD essentially and thus unacceptable to use, this even carries through in game, it's illegal and then entire you go to the Vault and give Obisek a telling off for using the generator you find there. Even if they'd just changed the name and description of it to something like 'focused singularity blast' based on the banned Thalaron technology used on the first Scimitar, it'd make me a lot happier.
Now onto my experience. When I first got the Scimitar I spec'd into Particle Generators and boosted the Aux' and tweaked a few other things to get maximum effect. It does do a good deal of damage, destroying waves of enemies and finishing the rest with a DoT, however that's only if they don't move out of the way first, which they tend to a lot. In PvP I've found it really useless and perhaps it was the build I used but it left the ship very open to attack and I found it got destroyed very quickly. I've since changed my build to make the ship as tanky as possible and enjoy it all round a lot more, I've also removed all the consoles from it, however I got the three pack so I do plan to build the Falchion with the consoles on...
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan
It is obviously not ideal for PvP, but it is fun for PvE.
If not going completely nerdy about the immorality of using thalaron weaponry... ...It is a fine ship, with a fun gun.
My 2 euro-cents.
Now, how that was achieved was maximum tactical buffing with a Tulwar class and of course, 5*sci consoles to buff it. Maximum shield power, maximum aux, torpedos and mines.
Is this optimal for PvP? No, no it is not and I don't recommend trying it. Is it satisfying to completely clear a sphere swarm in ISE singlehandedly so people can just fly off to the next generator without delay? Yes, yes it is. Finding applications for a giant death cone is part of the fun!
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm going to be as blunt as possible.
I specifically said I didn't want to hear about build mechanics and yet, somebody couldn't resist doing a detailed breakdown of why this console and that console are so awesome.
What is so wrong with mmo players that no matter what, they feel every discussion needs to be about builds?
Inevitably, regardless of the game or the discussion, it always turns into a build discussion when a simple question about a skill is asked.
To be honest, you could put those consoles on any ship.
You don't need a Scimitar for that!
And for another dose of brutal honesty, I'm very disappointed everyone does the same thing!
Try to think outside the box people!
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
You cant have a discussion about why people dont like a certain piece of gear and not talk about builds, stats and effects. What were you expecting? were you expecting people to say they dont like thalaron pulse because of the color of its beam?
And lets not forget that you are the one that in your original post used the mechanics on each console to justify their use. You state that cloaked barrage is good for its ability to grant you attacks in stealth. You state that secondary shields is useful as an oh s**t ability. And you state that that last console allows you to run shields while in stealth. If you are going to open up your first post with "my reason to use console A is because it has this mechanics" then that sounds like an open invitation to discuss mechanics, stats and builds. But then you state all that stuff and then you say at the end "ohh but i dont want to talk about builds".
NOW if you had said "i use secondary shields because Worf did a tactical analysis in Nemisis the movie and mentioned secondary shields" then thats fine, cause you are using canon as your reasoning and there is nothing wrong with that. If you had said that your reason for wanting to use thalaron pulse is because Shinzon used it against the Enterprise so its a canon ability, then thats fine too.
EDIT: and also, though my post may have been worded as 'hey change your consoles to...' the information still stands. If you arent looking for advice fine...if you want to know reasons why, then the info is in the posts above.
There ya go, no breakdown and 100 percent accurate.
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