And yet despite that, they are Human designs. They incorporate no Vulcan influences in their design.
Ayup. And you'd think this would happen a lot. A ship that incorporate significant Vulcan influence would thus bear a distinct resemblance to a Vulcan ship: Ships look the way they do because much of their form in some way follows their function. Thus, a ship incorporating significant Vulcan technology would bear a resemblance to a Vulcan ship.
You see none of that. A Vulcan ship and its warp systems looks like the D'kyr. But Starfleet ships look like a variation of the frisbee and tampon dispenser config. They aren't Vulcan-influenced in any visible way at all. Since Vulcans had superior technology in these fields, wouldn't ships built thus rely heavily on Vulcan expertise, and thus resemble Vulcan ships?
Compare that to the Vorcha. The Vorcha was a Klingon ship created at the time of a Federation-Klingon alliance. You can clearly see the Federation influences in the design, and the incorporatation of Federation technology in it, most apparently in the warp nacelles: They look different from traditional Klingon engines, more closely resembling engines seen in the Galaxy-class. It's clearly a Klingon ship, but incorporates a great deal of new Federation tech influences.
I always thought it went down like this...
Human scientist: and with the warp engines moved to the sides of the ship attached to long pylons, we can get another 45 to 50 percent speed increase while maintaining a more stable warp field around the ship.
Vulcan scientist: ummm... well... we never thought of that.
You see, Vulcans in Trek are depicted as being more logical, and sometimes more technologically advanced, but not necessarily more intelligent or creative than humans. Gene Roddenberry was very specific that humans were intelligent and creative beings. He never like the notion that space aliens built our pyramids in Egypt, arguing that human beings are more than cleaver enough to figure that out for themselves.
Captain Kirk is depicted as being Spock's equal in chess, and often beats him. Now Spock is no dummy, but he lacks the creative insight that his human counterpart (Kirk) brings to the equation.
Apparently. Starfleet is a much more racist club deep down.
Consider: Practically every single Starfleet ship is a Human design. This stretches back to the earliest days of Starfleet, despite the fact that other Federation member races had much more advanced technological bases than the Humans. Why, then, do all Starfleet ships seem to have been made entirely by humans, incorporating no Vulcan, Andorian, or Tellarite design influences? Only recently in STO have we seen any of the member-race designs, which, of course, seem only marginally integrated into Starfleet.
The technological advances since the founding of the Federation can be attributed to a cooperative effort by ALL Federation members. The basic visual design may date back to 22nd Century Earth vessels, but the underlying technology isn't Earth-centric.
I won't argue that Starfleet itself has a strong Human bias. But that's more or less a result of Starfleet originally being a United Earth organization, and the cultural outlook of the founding members of the Federation in the first century of it's existence.
The technological advances since the founding of the Federation can be attributed to a cooperative effort by ALL Federation members. The basic visual design may date back to 22nd Century Earth vessels, but the underlying technology isn't Earth-centric.
I won't argue that Starfleet itself has a strong Human bias. But that's more or less a result of Starfleet originally being a United Earth organization, and the cultural outlook of the founding members of the Federation in the first century of it's existence.
Also, we should take into account that the other three founding races of the Federation had a history of conflict with each other, thus they had a reason to use vessels that weren't obviously created by either Andorians, Vulcans, or Tellarites. Thus they had Andorians, Vulcans, and Tellarites show the Humans how to make stuff that was better than the NX-01 could ever hope to be. The overall aesthetic of the design is human, but that's about it really.
Also, we should take into account that the other three founding races of the Federation had a history of conflict with each other, thus they had a reason to use vessels that weren't obviously created by either Andorians, Vulcans, or Tellarites. Thus they had Andorians, Vulcans, and Tellarites show the Humans how to make stuff that was better than the NX-01 could ever hope to be. The overall aesthetic of the design is human, but that's about it really.
And some of that conflict was very recent as of 2161. Plus, there is some evidence of lingering bad blood between the founding members well into the late 23rd Century.
The reason Starfleet has a "strong human bias" is because in live-action TV, its just so much more budget-friendly to not have too many actors that need complicated makeup or masks.
Yep. Just look at Cryptic. Not a SINGLE Klingon on the whole development team. Only human opinions matter.
Well, the Klingons did try to develop their own MMO, but it failed due to the lack of targ-wheels to power the servers.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
The reason Starfleet has a "strong human bias" is because in live-action TV, its just so much more budget-friendly to not have too many actors that need complicated makeup or masks.
Which can be worked around by better writing. Also, I notice DS9 didn't seem to have a problem affording a huge array of extras with crazy makeup, and yet the Starfleet extras were 99% human (and most of them white, at that).
This is actually something STO does a hell of a lot better. In this game Starfleet feels much more like the multicultural organization it was supposed to be than it ever did in the shows (even if a lot of the storyline seems to be written expecting a human player character).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The way i read it, the Federation-Klingon war was stirred up by undine/Iconian infiltration/manipulation in the upper echelons of both factions, and we?re playing the mid-ranking leaders who are co-operating in defiance of the corrupted leadership.
What i?d really love to see would be a new season focusing on the Federation-Klingon war, telling a story which included initial KDF-Fed hostilities but where as you progress up the rep, you unlock diplomatic story missions where you conclude the war (maybe including some internal Klingon politics, like the internal house rivalries - it?s clear that some houses are more hostile to the Federation than others).
I?d love to see a diplomatic plotline where Fed players were sent on missions to Qo?noS (or Klingon players had their own missions bringing down rival houses, another civil war?) - it would give the devs a great reason to flesh out some of the KDF content, too.
Which can be worked around by better writing. Also, I notice DS9 didn't seem to have a problem affording a huge array of extras with crazy makeup,
Well, this seems to have been in large part due to the makeup department reusing the rubber foreheads they made for TNG. :P I forget where, but I heard that they actually used the same prosthetics for multiple episodes. As a cost saving measure I suppose..
The influence on Starfleet ships is there, look at the early ships like the pre refit connie.
Phasers or phase cannons on previous Starfleet vessels were the traditional orange but the early Connies were blue like that of Andorian guard ships. Its a no brainer that Starfleet would of used the better weapons avaiable to them from their member races.
Pre Fed ships had no deflector shields like the NX class which put them at a huge disadvantage to pretty much anyone else. At least two (Andorian and Vulcan) of the other member states used deflector shields pre Federation so you can bet that the tech came from them.
Faster warp engines (warp 7) this happened for Starfleet the same year (2161) as the founding of the Federation. It is not a far stretch to say the Vulcans helped out with this one as they were referenced as having W7 ships for a long time. By the time of the Connie itself we have a warp 8 engine (all be it for emergency speed)
The influence on Starfleet ships is there, look at the early ships like the pre refit connie.
Phasers or phase cannons on previous Starfleet vessels were the traditional orange but the early Connies were blue like that of Andorian vessels.
Pre Fed ships had no deflector shields like the NX class which put them at a huge disadvantage to pretty much anyone else. All of the other member states used deflector shields pre Federation so you can bet that the tech came from them.
Faster warp engines (warp 7) this happened for Starfleet the same year (2161) as the founding of the Federation. It is not a far stretch to say the Vulcans helped out with this one as they were referenced as having W7 ships for a long time. By the time of the Connie itself we have a warp 8 engine (all be it for emergency speed)
as far as i am aware the vulcans didnt have deflector shielding neither did the andorians or tellarites. you could be confusing that episode where the earth was destroyed and the xindi were hunting down the humans and shran gave the humans shield tech. but since that never happened. between ENT and TOS shield tech was developed.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Which can be worked around by better writing. Also, I notice DS9 didn't seem to have a problem affording a huge array of extras with crazy makeup, and yet the Starfleet extras were 99% human (and most of them white, at that).
This is actually something STO does a hell of a lot better. In this game Starfleet feels much more like the multicultural organization it was supposed to be than it ever did in the shows (even if a lot of the storyline seems to be written expecting a human player character).
Unfortunately, STO also turned the KDF into a Starfleet-esque organization. At least with the Klingon Empire, it makes sense to have Klingons be predominant, the Klingon Empire has no illusions of 'equality' or 'brotherhood' with its subject races. They are jeghpu'wI, somewhere between 'slaves' and 'citizens'. Perhaps 2nd class citizens. There should not be any jeghpu'wI officers. At best, they would be crew.
I can maybe see Orions commanding Orion vessels, because the Orion Syndicate is allies with the KDF. And, if the KDF were really pressed for resources, they could use Gorn vessels manned by Gorn jeghpu'wI with Klingon officers running the show. But this business of multi-racial mixing on KDF vessels as if everyone is of equal status? Bah. Just a sign of Cryptic's blatant Federation bias. Next thing you know, they'll be having Gorn, Orions, Nausicaans, Letheans, and Ferasans on the High Council.
Unfortunately, STO also turned the KDF into a Starfleet-esque organization. At least with the Klingon Empire, it makes sense to have Klingons be predominant, the Klingon Empire has no illusions of 'equality' or 'brotherhood' with its subject races. They are jeghpu'wI, somewhere between 'slaves' and 'citizens'. Perhaps 2nd class citizens. There should not be any jeghpu'wI officers. At best, they would be crew.
I can maybe see Orions commanding Orion vessels, because the Orion Syndicate is allies with the KDF. And, if the KDF were really pressed for resources, they could use Gorn vessels manned by Gorn jeghpu'wI with Klingon officers running the show. But this business of multi-racial mixing on KDF vessels as if everyone is of equal status? Bah. Just a sign of Cryptic's blatant Federation bias. Next thing you know, they'll be having Gorn, Orions, Nausicaans, Letheans, and Ferasans on the High Council.
thought they would call all these people "hur'q" which means outsiders anyway. but i guess pataQ or tohzah will do in a pinch.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I feel that Klingons should be given a mission similar to the Romulan one where you choose your allegiance. That'd kill the sales of the Klingon race for feds, but honestly I don't see many klingon feds around anyway. Of course, that would most likely result in the Klingon side being even less populated than it is now...
Sardak (Science Officer): Captain of a 23k DPS R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel, R.R.W. Vathos Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
Well, this seems to have been in large part due to the makeup department reusing the rubber foreheads they made for TNG. :P I forget where, but I heard that they actually used the same prosthetics for multiple episodes. As a cost saving measure I suppose..
Kitbashing and reusing props is a long, cherished tradition in TV and film. In Firefly Alliance troops use armor and weapons originally made for Starship Troopers, except repainted in chrome.
That still doesn't explain why they hardly ever put any of them on Starfleet crewmen, though.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I kind of suspect that, for Klingons, declaring war on someone can mean either "We hate you and you are our worst enemy," or "You are my best friend EVER!!!" and that whether it means one or the other can shift as the conflict continues.
Somewhat more seriously, I think the Klingons have been further flandarized from even their TNG status. I think they're due for something of a cultural renaissance, especially since the KDF is more diverse than it ever has been before.
With rumors of the end of the Fed/KDF war, we might get something approximating that renaissance.
Somewhat more seriously, I think the Klingons have been further flandarized from even their TNG status. I think they're due for something of a cultural renaissance, especially since the KDF is more diverse than it ever has been before.
The Flanderizing starts with calling the Military the "Defense Force" which is a rather 20th Century Politically-Correct and watered down label, especially for an Imperial power.
The Flanderizing starts with calling the Military the "Defense Force" which is a rather 20th Century Politically-Correct and watered down label, especially for an Imperial power.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The Flanderizing starts with calling the Military the "Defense Force" which is a rather 20th Century Politically-Correct and watered down label, especially for an Imperial power.
Isn't that actually kind of the opposite of flanderizing? Flanderizing if when you take one attribute of a character or group and, in future appearances of that person/group, make build their character entirely around that attribute. Klingons were flanderized from their original, somewhat more subtle nature in TOS into the lovers of war that we know today. This is, in fact, specifically mentioned under the Live-Action TV section on the Flanderization page.
I suppose that the less agressive-sounding "Klingon Defense Force" could be flanderizing them becoming more amiable in TNG...
Or maybe it's like calling a torture department the "Bureau of Information Retrieval."
Or maybe that's how they actually see it. They're jittery about the Undine.
Isn't that actually kind of the opposite of flanderizing? Flanderizing if when you take one attribute of a character or group and, in future appearances of that person/group, make build their character entirely around that attribute. Klingons were flanderized from their original, somewhat more subtle nature in TOS into the lovers of war that we know today. This is, in fact, specifically mentioned under the Live-Action TV section on the Flanderization page.
I suppose that the less agressive-sounding "Klingon Defense Force" could be flanderizing them becoming more amiable in TNG...
Or maybe it's like calling a torture department the "Bureau of Information Retrieval."
Or maybe that's how they actually see it. They're jittery about the Undine.
I'm thinking along the lines of the Klingons were the "greatest threat" during TOS and the idea of "defense force" of an Imperial power further waters down what was a warrior culture over time and multiple Star Trek series. Using the strict definition of Flanderization, would be the increasing emphasis on "past glory" and the "good old days".
I'm thinking along the lines of the Klingons were the "greatest threat" during TOS and the idea of "defense force" of an Imperial power further waters down what was a warrior culture over time and multiple Star Trek series.
Off topic, but is anyone else annoyed by the swear words in trope names because it makes them hard to discuss in polite company?
I know you have to use the redirect to the S****horpe Problem because this forum runs right into it, as you see.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Comments
I always thought it went down like this...
Human scientist: and with the warp engines moved to the sides of the ship attached to long pylons, we can get another 45 to 50 percent speed increase while maintaining a more stable warp field around the ship.
Vulcan scientist: ummm... well... we never thought of that.
You see, Vulcans in Trek are depicted as being more logical, and sometimes more technologically advanced, but not necessarily more intelligent or creative than humans. Gene Roddenberry was very specific that humans were intelligent and creative beings. He never like the notion that space aliens built our pyramids in Egypt, arguing that human beings are more than cleaver enough to figure that out for themselves.
Captain Kirk is depicted as being Spock's equal in chess, and often beats him. Now Spock is no dummy, but he lacks the creative insight that his human counterpart (Kirk) brings to the equation.
Yep. Just look at Cryptic. Not a SINGLE Klingon on the whole development team. Only human opinions matter.
And in a gesture of friendship I would like to invite members of the Federation to come Targ hunting with me on the Northern plains of Qo'Nos.
It can get quite cold on the Northern plains so Targ Fur coats will be provided to all my Federation friends.
Hope to see you soon!
The technological advances since the founding of the Federation can be attributed to a cooperative effort by ALL Federation members. The basic visual design may date back to 22nd Century Earth vessels, but the underlying technology isn't Earth-centric.
I won't argue that Starfleet itself has a strong Human bias. But that's more or less a result of Starfleet originally being a United Earth organization, and the cultural outlook of the founding members of the Federation in the first century of it's existence.
My character Tsin'xing
And some of that conflict was very recent as of 2161. Plus, there is some evidence of lingering bad blood between the founding members well into the late 23rd Century.
Well, the Klingons did try to develop their own MMO, but it failed due to the lack of targ-wheels to power the servers.
Which can be worked around by better writing. Also, I notice DS9 didn't seem to have a problem affording a huge array of extras with crazy makeup, and yet the Starfleet extras were 99% human (and most of them white, at that).
This is actually something STO does a hell of a lot better. In this game Starfleet feels much more like the multicultural organization it was supposed to be than it ever did in the shows (even if a lot of the storyline seems to be written expecting a human player character).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
What i?d really love to see would be a new season focusing on the Federation-Klingon war, telling a story which included initial KDF-Fed hostilities but where as you progress up the rep, you unlock diplomatic story missions where you conclude the war (maybe including some internal Klingon politics, like the internal house rivalries - it?s clear that some houses are more hostile to the Federation than others).
I?d love to see a diplomatic plotline where Fed players were sent on missions to Qo?noS (or Klingon players had their own missions bringing down rival houses, another civil war?) - it would give the devs a great reason to flesh out some of the KDF content, too.
My character Tsin'xing
Phasers or phase cannons on previous Starfleet vessels were the traditional orange but the early Connies were blue like that of Andorian guard ships. Its a no brainer that Starfleet would of used the better weapons avaiable to them from their member races.
Pre Fed ships had no deflector shields like the NX class which put them at a huge disadvantage to pretty much anyone else. At least two (Andorian and Vulcan) of the other member states used deflector shields pre Federation so you can bet that the tech came from them.
Faster warp engines (warp 7) this happened for Starfleet the same year (2161) as the founding of the Federation. It is not a far stretch to say the Vulcans helped out with this one as they were referenced as having W7 ships for a long time. By the time of the Connie itself we have a warp 8 engine (all be it for emergency speed)
as far as i am aware the vulcans didnt have deflector shielding neither did the andorians or tellarites. you could be confusing that episode where the earth was destroyed and the xindi were hunting down the humans and shran gave the humans shield tech. but since that never happened. between ENT and TOS shield tech was developed.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Unfortunately, STO also turned the KDF into a Starfleet-esque organization. At least with the Klingon Empire, it makes sense to have Klingons be predominant, the Klingon Empire has no illusions of 'equality' or 'brotherhood' with its subject races. They are jeghpu'wI, somewhere between 'slaves' and 'citizens'. Perhaps 2nd class citizens. There should not be any jeghpu'wI officers. At best, they would be crew.
I can maybe see Orions commanding Orion vessels, because the Orion Syndicate is allies with the KDF. And, if the KDF were really pressed for resources, they could use Gorn vessels manned by Gorn jeghpu'wI with Klingon officers running the show. But this business of multi-racial mixing on KDF vessels as if everyone is of equal status? Bah. Just a sign of Cryptic's blatant Federation bias. Next thing you know, they'll be having Gorn, Orions, Nausicaans, Letheans, and Ferasans on the High Council.
thought they would call all these people "hur'q" which means outsiders anyway. but i guess pataQ or tohzah will do in a pinch.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102975/
Star Trek: The Next Generation
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092455/
Kitbashing and reusing props is a long, cherished tradition in TV and film. In Firefly Alliance troops use armor and weapons originally made for Starship Troopers, except repainted in chrome.
That still doesn't explain why they hardly ever put any of them on Starfleet crewmen, though.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Somewhat more seriously, I think the Klingons have been further flandarized from even their TNG status. I think they're due for something of a cultural renaissance, especially since the KDF is more diverse than it ever has been before.
With rumors of the end of the Fed/KDF war, we might get something approximating that renaissance.
Edit: Hey, 100 posts.
The Flanderizing starts with calling the Military the "Defense Force" which is a rather 20th Century Politically-Correct and watered down label, especially for an Imperial power.
Canon. Deal with it.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I suppose that the less agressive-sounding "Klingon Defense Force" could be flanderizing them becoming more amiable in TNG...
Or maybe it's like calling a torture department the "Bureau of Information Retrieval."
Or maybe that's how they actually see it. They're jittery about the Undine.
I'm thinking along the lines of the Klingons were the "greatest threat" during TOS and the idea of "defense force" of an Imperial power further waters down what was a warrior culture over time and multiple Star Trek series. Using the strict definition of Flanderization, would be the increasing emphasis on "past glory" and the "good old days".
Off topic, but is anyone else annoyed by the swear words in trope names because it makes them hard to discuss in polite company?
I know you have to use the redirect to the S****horpe Problem because this forum runs right into it, as you see.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
Minor nitpick: It's spelled "albeit". :P
I fixed that for you.
And eat the pet targ's !
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse