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So, let us discuss the Scimitar
rylanadionysis
Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
*drags dead horses out of the graveyard and sits on one*
So, we have a ship in the game that has 5/3 weapons layout, battle cloak, a hangar bay, and can only be captained by a species that has the largest bonus to critical chance and severity possible.
The downsides if you can call them that are that its hull and shield mods are a bit lower than the other dread classes.
However. there exists this nifty thing called the Valdore Console (Shield whatever its called off the Valdore C-store ship), so that downside is pretty much negated.
I own the three pack, and to be completely honest I almost wish I hadnt bought it. Not because it sucks, but because it completely outclasses anything else I own.
You know in other games there have been things called Alpha classes. Death Knights in WoW, Jedi in SWG, some others.. Think about their track records, they never once had a good impact on the overall game experience, and over time had to be nerfed less no one would play anything else.
I named my ship the DNT Alpha X for a reason. It is my Alpha class ship. No other ship I own can match the sheer abilities of this one (it kinda sucks in PvP currently, but that is likely to change as I work on a PvP build for it).
This ship literally does twice the damage of any other ship I own, survives just as well as my best tanks, has the escape ability of any other battle cloaker, and to boot takes up more space than any other ship in system or sector space, its so badass it literally moves ships out of its way when it spawns in.
You dont normally hear me call for nerfs on this forum. If anything I am usually against them, but you gotta do something with this ship Cryptic. it is absolutely insane how powerful one is. Even the DPS channels consider it OP and have a special "extra 5000 DPS" rule to qualify for the channels with it. If even the most elite DPS jockeys are calling the ship OP, its OP and needs to have something done about it.
My suggestion would be to first remove the hangar bay. That adds an additional 3-4k dps that is completely unnecessary for this ship. The other would be to swap the Commander tactical for a commander engineering. This ship is, after all, a dread. It is not an escort class, nor is it a destroyer. It should not have Commander Tactical at any rate.
Even with those two changes, someone could simply swap the Uni slot for LtComm tactical and be almost as strong as they are now, but it would be much more in line with the Avenger class.
The final thing would be to limit the length of time a battle cloak damage bonus can last. Currently you can get over 20 seconds of decloak bonus. Just hard cap that at say 12 seconds and I think youd have it nailed down.
My two cents, and a lot of these conclusions are based on conversations I have had in game, they are not just my own.
As fun as it has been to nearly do 30k DPS in ESTFs, I am almost ashamed to bring the ship out, as it completely makes everything else around it seem useless and inadequate. How many threads have people made about this ship?
Something needs done.
So, we have a ship in the game that has 5/3 weapons layout, battle cloak, a hangar bay, and can only be captained by a species that has the largest bonus to critical chance and severity possible.
The downsides if you can call them that are that its hull and shield mods are a bit lower than the other dread classes.
However. there exists this nifty thing called the Valdore Console (Shield whatever its called off the Valdore C-store ship), so that downside is pretty much negated.
I own the three pack, and to be completely honest I almost wish I hadnt bought it. Not because it sucks, but because it completely outclasses anything else I own.
You know in other games there have been things called Alpha classes. Death Knights in WoW, Jedi in SWG, some others.. Think about their track records, they never once had a good impact on the overall game experience, and over time had to be nerfed less no one would play anything else.
I named my ship the DNT Alpha X for a reason. It is my Alpha class ship. No other ship I own can match the sheer abilities of this one (it kinda sucks in PvP currently, but that is likely to change as I work on a PvP build for it).
This ship literally does twice the damage of any other ship I own, survives just as well as my best tanks, has the escape ability of any other battle cloaker, and to boot takes up more space than any other ship in system or sector space, its so badass it literally moves ships out of its way when it spawns in.
You dont normally hear me call for nerfs on this forum. If anything I am usually against them, but you gotta do something with this ship Cryptic. it is absolutely insane how powerful one is. Even the DPS channels consider it OP and have a special "extra 5000 DPS" rule to qualify for the channels with it. If even the most elite DPS jockeys are calling the ship OP, its OP and needs to have something done about it.
My suggestion would be to first remove the hangar bay. That adds an additional 3-4k dps that is completely unnecessary for this ship. The other would be to swap the Commander tactical for a commander engineering. This ship is, after all, a dread. It is not an escort class, nor is it a destroyer. It should not have Commander Tactical at any rate.
Even with those two changes, someone could simply swap the Uni slot for LtComm tactical and be almost as strong as they are now, but it would be much more in line with the Avenger class.
The final thing would be to limit the length of time a battle cloak damage bonus can last. Currently you can get over 20 seconds of decloak bonus. Just hard cap that at say 12 seconds and I think youd have it nailed down.
My two cents, and a lot of these conclusions are based on conversations I have had in game, they are not just my own.
As fun as it has been to nearly do 30k DPS in ESTFs, I am almost ashamed to bring the ship out, as it completely makes everything else around it seem useless and inadequate. How many threads have people made about this ship?
Something needs done.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
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As always you cant really nerf a ship so heavily after release and i hope they dont csuse it would set a dangerous example for putting OP ships in the store to make everyone buy it and then remove all those stats.
So we just habe to wait for them to release a new race thats even or more powerful and then maybe the scim will get some competition.
Balancing needs to be done before the release not after. Sadly they dont seem to have someone for that or maybe they just ignore him. Or maybe they needed money fast and so they released the opness thats called scim
If you give a Romulan the Dominion Dreadnaught or the Adapted Battle Cruiser, they'd be able to push over 30k DPS, too.
In my eyes, though, if you did nerf the scimitar's firepower, what else would you do to it? Because in all fairness it does get mashed up somewhat. Half the time its only though its sheer amount of firepower that keeps it alive at times.
Peacekeeper High Command
Scorpius - Zelbinion Mk II
Add in the Hangar with Elite Drone ships (when they decide to not go herp a derp and blow up without doing much... yes, it does happen quite often -.-) and you can deal even MORE damage.
Tbh, my only gripe with the ship is it's ludicrously low inertia rating, and the fact that for some reason, even after all the patches, the ship does take an oddly high amount of bleed damage. But it's still crazy strong.
I actually have lost count of the number of ISEs and KASEs I have carried with my Tac Scimitar. It's a beast.
But to be fair Rylan, it IS the Scimitar. Let it be OP. It's earned it. *mutters* especially after all the bugs and problems it suffered from upon release...
Technical data Edit
Cloaking technology Edit
The Scimitar's cloaking technology was, in the words of Geordi La Forge, "perfect." It emitted no tachyons and left no residual anti-protons, the two ways that a cloaked ship could be tracked and located. Thus, when cloaked, the Scimitar was virtually impossible to find. Only a chance hit by an opposing ship's weapons or by targeting where the Scimitar's shots came from could reveal its location, temporarily disrupting the cloak. The Scimitar could even deploy its weapons and deflector shields and travel at high warp speeds while cloaked, actions which, with less-advanced cloaking technology, necessitated de-cloaking or reduced the effectiveness of cloaking. Its maximum warp factor when cloaked was more than that of Starfleet's Sovereign-class starship.
Weaponry and military equipment Edit
Having been designed for war, the Scimitar had 52 disruptor banks and 27 photon torpedo bays; it was thus ready for nearly any battle, carrying roughly five times the armament of any other single ship. The powerful thalaron radiation weapon with which it was also equipped was capable of stripping the life off a planet in a matter of seconds, though it took seven minutes to prepare. The Scimitar also held several Scorpion-class attack fighters.
Shielding technology Edit
The Scimitar had primary and secondary regenerative shields. This allowed for twice the protection, giving it a backup shield. Even against the USS Enterprise-E and two Romulan Valdore-type Warbirds, the Scimitar still had the obvious advantage.
Given the above the Scimi should be OP relative to other ships and in fact, as it stands now, should have even more weapons slots, the thalaron ability should dish out more dmg, etc. But yeah, I know, from a game balance perspective it would be ridiculous, and when has actual Star Trek canon meant anything to STO.
It is interesting to note, that although it's considered devastating in pve, it's not a first choice in pvp. Nerf it and it may never be used there.
I have named my engine of destruction; Death Blossom. Only one person has gotten the reference so far, made me feel old.
Only one bad thing about it; When I play my KDF tac, I cry at how bad KDF ships have it.
For all experienced players, it was clear after they released the stats, what this ship is. As far as I am concerned it hast the best BO-Layout ingame, as well as one of the best Console-Layouts. And to make it even worse, they added a hangar. But, they even topped it: They made a new pet, exclusively for the scimitar, which is the second best pet ingame, only being topped by the mesh weavers (which are strong even without there APB)).
After reading my post, its like I would tell a bad joke, but this joke is reality...
P.S.: On the other hand, their are many scimitar with 4k or less. "Best" one was 1,8k (raw,not enc.dps) in KASE^^
We never should have had this ship in the first place.
*shrug*
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Peacekeeper High Command
Scorpius - Zelbinion Mk II
DPS channels do not have a 5k dps rule for scims, we have it for bfaw and i can say that with honesty as i am the leader co-founder of most of them.
30k dps isnt hard to reach with many ships recluse and avenger being just two of them
scimitar has much more damage potential than the others but capitalising on that is the difficulty i believe the ISE dps record is held by me and stands at 49k (@ezri carter did 54k but not legit)
i feel john stweard is correct nerfing the scim now is simply not fair to all the people who bought it and would set a bad example for future c-store ships
i feel the real problem isnt being properly addressed, its not the massive dps or tank ability the scim has that is the problem. because there are many MANY ships that can do 30k + dps
the problem is pve content isnt difficult enough to challenge the new ships if there was a difficulty that actually was built for 20-30k dps ships then this wouldnt be a problem
remember the dps requirment for these stfs is about 3k each 15k for the team. no wonder its so easy give us content that challenges us and suddenly the scim wont look that OP
Solo STF's With Optional ISE: 3:34
i have all logs saved of these so if you would like to view them send me a pm and it can be arranged
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
There is no reason to withhold the schimitar, but it is not a new ship anymore, there was no reason to make it so powerful given the time has passed since it was commissioned and subsequently destroyed. I guess there should be an auto destruct sequence if a boarding party ever lands on the thing since in the end it was destroyed with a small hand phaser.
it's balanced in pvp
Thats actually quite true. PVE I feel as if it doesn't matter if the rest of the team are in T5 ships or T1 ships.
Yet in PVP I feel like I'm a glass cannon, only alpha'ing when I think I don't run the risk of being counter-alpha'd.
Peacekeeper High Command
Scorpius - Zelbinion Mk II
the ambassador was launched to be slight heavier then the excelsior but was mostly for strong defend its self and even jean-luc picard called the heratio ambassador class a heavy cruiser with a respected service record for the ambassador class. in star trek canon how many pre st tng 2364 ship classes would have been able to single handedly dealt 4 2340's era romulan warbirds. i can only think of one pre st tng 2366 ship class the could handle almost 4 romulan warbirds in the 2340's and the ship class is the the ambaddasor class. the enterprise c destroyed 2 romulan warbirds on its own of the 2340's era romulan warbirds and damage the other 2 and destroyed one ship with a self destruction. in star trek game i find that both excelsior slight bit more turning and the ambassador slight bit more fire power are roughly equal and only very minor differences in turning and actual fire power and the console layout is the same. it is too bad the the tier 5 galaxy is out classed in star trek online by both the tier 5 excelsior and the tier 5 ambassador particularly in tac consoles. i am almost running the same buff stations on both the ambassador and the excelsior on my engineering captain the make a change where i have too also the exelsior i am only running with 2 engineering officer and still does perfectly good job. try in a stanard tier 5 galaxy class and the galaxy class feel even more under powered. the d'ddredrex feels in game almost the same ad the galaxy class but the galaxy at least tanks better then the d'dredrex.
at the time that the excelsior class was first launched is was built for the failed transwarp drive while also being built as a solid ship class and a heavy battle cruiser and even today the excelsior class still makes for a good heavy cruiser in starfleet 2409
Zur and the Kodon Armada?!?!
The Scimitar has set an entirely new standard. For all intents and purposes it is the first Tier 6 ship (unofficially), and the Fleet Avenger seems to be right on that same level.
We are coming to a head now where Tier 5 is becoming obsolete to the newest releases.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
One quick fix I could see them doing is buffing the abilities of the 'lesser' Z-store ships (when I say buff, I'm mainly leaning towards a major cooldown reduction on their abilities). Alright, it might still make no difference to the ship (stat wise) but sales should increase due to people using the universal consoles more, and sales are really the driving force behind most things here. However, I guess people would be against that as it'd be branded "I Win" buttons.
Bah, rambling now.
*excluding "its my favourite ship in the show" reasons for purchase
Peacekeeper High Command
Scorpius - Zelbinion Mk II
The Dominion Dreadnaught has 7 weapon slots, 2 hangar bays, and a commander Tac.
The Adapted Battlecruiser has 8 weapon slots, Sensor Analysis, and the possibility of a commander Tac.
The Tholian Recluse has 6 weapon slots, 2 hangar bays, a possibility of a commander Tac, and frigates that stack APB3.
Standard was set long before the Scimitar.
As others said, cryptic wont nerf the ship itself except to nibble at it, maybe increase inertia a little more, decrease resists, minor stuff that wont lead to demand for refunds and lawyer letters. All they can do at this point is buff other ships to the same level, then we will have an alpha class (as you put it) consisting of just those ships while most other ships are in the lesser classes.
They could do this somewhat by buffing the Odyssey and Bortas to a certain extent. Give them a single hangar bay and turn their pet console into a unique pet, give the odyssey a fifth beam on the saucer, buff the Bortas turn rate, that kind of thing. They seem pretty resistant to all these suggestions too.
It wasnt Scim that broke the game, it is just a footnote reference to what is broken.
Heh, we're not talking a new ship simply obsoleting older C-store ships, we're talking new ships that obsolete even Lockbox ships.
Case and point:
D'kora, obsoleted for almost all purposes, by the Avenger/Fleet Avenger.
I'm pretty sure I read that 'that' was in the works, mentioned not long after the Ar'kif/etc got it's hangar. Though I think it was in the same paragraph as 'Galaxy-X Saucer Seperation' so I wasn't going to hold my breath, lol.
Peacekeeper High Command
Scorpius - Zelbinion Mk II
Theoretically, HP and available power would scale with the mass of the ship, while shield requirements scale with the surface area, firepower scales with surface area, and available power per unit volume would have a slope of 2/3.
This means that larger ships would be massively more powerful - the Oddy would completely outclass a defiant or even Galaxy/Sovereign due to having at least 5 times the available power, and more shields or weapon power per unit surface area, meaning that it would be able to carry more weapon hardpoints per unit hull area and they would be better protected. It would also be able to take a lot more hull damage, as it's sheer mass would make it difficult for a weapon hit to penetrate to the vital systems.
The Scimitar would have weaker shielding due to the inefficient design, but would have more weapons due to the larger surface area to mount them combined with the size to carry huge generators and a layout which would still allow power transfer conduits to feed all forward weapons.
However, this game needs to have smaller ships viable. Manoeuvrability is not enough to turn this around, as something like a B'rel would not even be able to damage an Oddy or Scimitar unless enough disconnect between weapons and defense exists for the larger ship to vaporize the smaller one in a single shot.
Therefore, these fundamental principles of physics fall by the wayside.
Basically, every tier 10 console ship in STO is supposed to be equal, yet different. This is mostly true - at least to within .5/2 (maybe .75/1.33) times the ability across every ship available.
However, the bigger is better mentality has crept in enough to distort balance.
The Scimitar could use a tradeoff mode like the Ar'kif retrofit.
Attack Posture: Shield Modifier of 0.9
Defence Posture: Shield Modifier of 1.1, -15 weapons power
This would work out to the nerf it needs, while still allowing for skilled players to use the defensive and offensive abilities by switching.
When was the last time you saw TLS? -- it's almost 30 years old
But the ship does have weaknesses nobody seems to want to talk about. Inertia. It SUCKS. You'll be flying around in a Scimitar, try to come to a full stop and they'll be sliding for a good ten kilometers. I'd like to say that it actually takes some skill to get a feel for the ship in landing right where you want to stop when gauging when to kill the throttle. Except, for me at least, it's wildly unpredictable. Sometimes when I'm at full impulse and I stop, it stops almost on a dime. Other times I'm at full impulse and it needs to think about it for a few miles before it gets the idea I want to halt. :rolleyes: Bipolar ship is bipolar.
It is also a VERY slow turner and is so large and so slow to gain speed (and slow to lose it, see above) that keeping it away from warp core breeches and flying it effectively can become a melting pot of trouble. Basically, flying it is a chore. And in the hands of a scrub, it will die horribly and often. Being supposedly super charged has apparently not helped them stay alive, as I think I see Scimitars blowing up more often in Conduit than perhaps any other ship. if you think billy bob gamer is just going to buy himself a Scimitar and start hauling unimaginable levels of pwn in fleet actions and pvp, you're in for a disappointment. Because it's good, but it's not nearly that good.
Instead of trying to make things worse, I would suggest trying to make everything else better. Superior Romulan Operative leaves the feds in the dust to be sure, who make do with a derp hull regen trait. But adding Pirate to Nasacaans for the KDF shows cryptic can make competitive space traits available to more than just the Romulans if they wanted to. Honestly, they might better do away with them altogether because the ones that stack and increase your dps will always outclass everything else, succeeding in creating nothing but a new baseline that serves only to limit choice in who you run with for a bridge crew. But adding traits like Pirate is better than letting Romulans hold the monopoly. I hope the feds get some similar love soon.
Cryptic can also give ships a niche to better separate them from the Scim. Is the D'D worth flying? No. Obviously it fails in dps to the Scim, but it loses out even in tanking as well. At least if the D'D cruiser had some... commands... to say, better hold threat or better turn depending on the need than that at least would begin the ground work for giving it something the Scimitar does not have. Basically, it seems like the majority of iconic ships in STO just keep falling further and further behind, while the Scimitar is the one iconic ship to get it "right". It's time for a fresh pass.