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Until the devs commit, all this is meaningless
illcadia
Member Posts: 1,412 Bug Hunter
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The endless suggestion posts, the 'save pvp' drives, the 'this is my idea, there are many like it but this one is mine' posts- all of it. It's meaningless. It doesn't contribute to anything, and it doesn't help. It's false hope at best, and a lie at worst. Until Cryptic commits to improving PVP ,until they solicit our help in doing so, it won't happen!
They read these threads, sure, or so they say. But the only thing we see- the only thing they seem to have budgeted- is fixes for bugs. Fixes for game breaking issues. Every time we've gotten a pvp improvement, it's only been an improvement for pvp incidentally- because the actual problem was with another part of the game, or with their metrics- something they actually had budgeted for.
Taco said it best: There's never any free time. The moment we're finished working on one thing, we're working on another.
So all these promises, all these hopes and dreams we've pinned on the devs just finishing up the latest season and finally having some time to devote to PVP- they're all meaningless. There's no point to it all- it contributes nothing, and gives nothing- and to those of us here from the start of it all, it's just one more tired reminder that the game isn't going to change until Cryptic commits to making that change.
All those pvp promises? The ones that they'd do 'in their free time'? Lies. Deliberate, but perhaps not malicious lies. The truth is hurtful- and harmful. If they just outright said "There's no budget for pvp for the next five years", it'd cause a lot of people to quit. This community would probably die- more than it already has. So instead they temporize, they present hearsay "I heard that [update] was going to come out when we have free time after [season X]"- but we know now that the time cited in that statement doesn't exist. There's never any free time, and there's not any hope that there will be.
There are no updates coming, unless Cryptic budgets for them. So save your ideas, save your dreams, save your desperation for that time, if it ever comes. I don't think it will, because they'll never be done with PvE- they've said that before. But the constant cycle of ideas, of dreams, of posts on how amazing this game could be, if only it had the budget for it- they don't help. They only serve as a reminder that PVP doesn't sell- that nobody's interested in PVP on the executive level. They might serve to help whoever posts them feel better, that they 'got the idea out' and that 'maybe Cryptic might read it and think it's a good idea', but they miss the fundamental flaw in that belief-that even if Cryptic DOES think it's a good idea, THINKING isn't DOLLARS.
Thinking doesn't pay the team, it isn't listed on the budget, and there's no projected profits for THINKING.
So just... stop.
But wait you say! We can boycott them. Speak with our wallets.
The truth is we, those who play PVP, do not number a fraction of the rest of the userbase. If every PVPer quit the game tomorrow, Cryptic wouldn't even notice, except maybe when Adjudicator Hawk notices the PVP forums haven't had a post in three months and wonders where everyone went.
Instead some consider that there might be a way to speak with our wallets- one we've suggested before but never really done anything with: Crowd funding.
A PVP kickstarter, or something along those lines. It'd predicate on PWE or another similar company disclosing fees and expenditures for a given seasonal release or expansion, and backengineering the actual cost of a PVP expansion from there.
In numbers alone it's probably far more than any one of us could pay, but hope might fly eternal- and this would be a definite "We have the money, we have the time, this is happening", which I dare say is better than hope.
Except for one little detail: They don't have the time. They never have the time. Even if they had the money, even if there was a way for us to provide that, to cover the costs twice or thrice over- they still wouldn't have the time. There's no 'pvp season' shaped space just waiting on their calendar.
So that option's most likely out, and that's the best hope we have at this point. What does that leave, exactly?
We play. We PVP. We don't ask for new content, because there's never going to be any new content. We accept the game as it is, leave our hopes and dreams behind, and learn to enjoy what we do have. There are already pvp fleets, groups, and channels that do private matches, but there's so much that this could be expanded upon. There's so much we could do that doesn't rely on Cryptic- and it isn't just tournamnts.
Branflakes sets up the occasional smashing success of a kerrat night. Do we do that? Hell no. But why not? Well, aside from lack of interest or communication, it's because we hope. We hope and dream that there'll be something better. That Cryptic will one day decide to actually do something. We blame the devs but it's not their faults in the least. It's not predicated on if they care or don't care- it all comes down to the budget. Until the budget includes PVP, we won't see updates, and we won't see even minor changes, like a better private queue system, or filtering teams into their own separate queues. None of that will happen unless the almighty god of the budget allows for it.
Hoping for that is, as the Borg say, futile.
If PVP improves, we need to do it ourselves- however we can.
The endless suggestion posts, the 'save pvp' drives, the 'this is my idea, there are many like it but this one is mine' posts- all of it. It's meaningless. It doesn't contribute to anything, and it doesn't help. It's false hope at best, and a lie at worst. Until Cryptic commits to improving PVP ,until they solicit our help in doing so, it won't happen!
They read these threads, sure, or so they say. But the only thing we see- the only thing they seem to have budgeted- is fixes for bugs. Fixes for game breaking issues. Every time we've gotten a pvp improvement, it's only been an improvement for pvp incidentally- because the actual problem was with another part of the game, or with their metrics- something they actually had budgeted for.
Taco said it best: There's never any free time. The moment we're finished working on one thing, we're working on another.
So all these promises, all these hopes and dreams we've pinned on the devs just finishing up the latest season and finally having some time to devote to PVP- they're all meaningless. There's no point to it all- it contributes nothing, and gives nothing- and to those of us here from the start of it all, it's just one more tired reminder that the game isn't going to change until Cryptic commits to making that change.
All those pvp promises? The ones that they'd do 'in their free time'? Lies. Deliberate, but perhaps not malicious lies. The truth is hurtful- and harmful. If they just outright said "There's no budget for pvp for the next five years", it'd cause a lot of people to quit. This community would probably die- more than it already has. So instead they temporize, they present hearsay "I heard that [update] was going to come out when we have free time after [season X]"- but we know now that the time cited in that statement doesn't exist. There's never any free time, and there's not any hope that there will be.
There are no updates coming, unless Cryptic budgets for them. So save your ideas, save your dreams, save your desperation for that time, if it ever comes. I don't think it will, because they'll never be done with PvE- they've said that before. But the constant cycle of ideas, of dreams, of posts on how amazing this game could be, if only it had the budget for it- they don't help. They only serve as a reminder that PVP doesn't sell- that nobody's interested in PVP on the executive level. They might serve to help whoever posts them feel better, that they 'got the idea out' and that 'maybe Cryptic might read it and think it's a good idea', but they miss the fundamental flaw in that belief-that even if Cryptic DOES think it's a good idea, THINKING isn't DOLLARS.
Thinking doesn't pay the team, it isn't listed on the budget, and there's no projected profits for THINKING.
So just... stop.
But wait you say! We can boycott them. Speak with our wallets.
The truth is we, those who play PVP, do not number a fraction of the rest of the userbase. If every PVPer quit the game tomorrow, Cryptic wouldn't even notice, except maybe when Adjudicator Hawk notices the PVP forums haven't had a post in three months and wonders where everyone went.
Instead some consider that there might be a way to speak with our wallets- one we've suggested before but never really done anything with: Crowd funding.
A PVP kickstarter, or something along those lines. It'd predicate on PWE or another similar company disclosing fees and expenditures for a given seasonal release or expansion, and backengineering the actual cost of a PVP expansion from there.
In numbers alone it's probably far more than any one of us could pay, but hope might fly eternal- and this would be a definite "We have the money, we have the time, this is happening", which I dare say is better than hope.
Except for one little detail: They don't have the time. They never have the time. Even if they had the money, even if there was a way for us to provide that, to cover the costs twice or thrice over- they still wouldn't have the time. There's no 'pvp season' shaped space just waiting on their calendar.
So that option's most likely out, and that's the best hope we have at this point. What does that leave, exactly?
We play. We PVP. We don't ask for new content, because there's never going to be any new content. We accept the game as it is, leave our hopes and dreams behind, and learn to enjoy what we do have. There are already pvp fleets, groups, and channels that do private matches, but there's so much that this could be expanded upon. There's so much we could do that doesn't rely on Cryptic- and it isn't just tournamnts.
Branflakes sets up the occasional smashing success of a kerrat night. Do we do that? Hell no. But why not? Well, aside from lack of interest or communication, it's because we hope. We hope and dream that there'll be something better. That Cryptic will one day decide to actually do something. We blame the devs but it's not their faults in the least. It's not predicated on if they care or don't care- it all comes down to the budget. Until the budget includes PVP, we won't see updates, and we won't see even minor changes, like a better private queue system, or filtering teams into their own separate queues. None of that will happen unless the almighty god of the budget allows for it.
Hoping for that is, as the Borg say, futile.
If PVP improves, we need to do it ourselves- however we can.
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Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Any edge. How expensive is a truly viable premade pvp build? 500 million, a billion? Six months of grind? Its close to that. We spend out the rear for any way to speed that process up, at least a lot of us do.
Look at the exchange sometime, and notice the prices for the PvP-good gear simply outclasses all of the PvE-good. (ergo ACCx3 mods almost always are double CrtDx3), the pvp doffs are anywhere from 10 to 20 times as expensive as anything that is less useful for pvp but more useful for pve.
So from the money standpoint, Cryptic really does stand to gain in financial profit if they draw more players to pvp, but for those of us that pvp regardless it will never be catered directly to us. The hardcore, truly hardcore, cases will pvp if the game is broken or not.
Geko was pretty blunt about the wish for the dev team to revisit pvp, he even called the zone control system a no-brainer for application in PvP and that there are plans to do so.
Yes time, but lately we have seen a lot of revisiting of systems, and crafting was confirmed for 2014 by Geko in the interview the other day, early 2014 within 6 months is what he said.
So while it sucks waiting, I do still hold out the belief that these arent empty promises. As a person that works in the industry myself I know what he means about scheduling time. It isnt usually up to the dev team when they do something, it is up to the producer.
When it does happen I am not expecting a sweeping brush stroke either, it will be focused and probably centered around a new zone or some other shiny gimmick. They will want to draw new people into the system and not just the 1 percent of us.
So while I to some extent can agree with some of what youve said, I also have to consider that as an industry insider (not this game or company of course) I know first hand that everything he said is as legitimate as it can be. He wants to do it, he is practically chomping at the bit to get time to do it because he knows the game needs it. But he has to find time around the rest of the work to get it done. New always takes precedence over old.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
There will never be something better. So far I agree, but I think many of the old PVPers know this and have accepted it. And anyway: a PVP revamp (like the one Gozer had in mind) would probably destroy what is left of the "old" PVP.
But the problem is not only that there are no improvements, it's also that PVP is actively made worse by the devs. And they are to blame for their decision to go with a version of power creep that has negative effects on PVP instead of going for a PVE-only power creep (think: more items in the vein of the [Borg] modifier, against Breen, Tholians, ... and with different effects and set bonuses; this would have allowed a gear progression in PVE without affecting PVP at all).
Hey, we heard you like to pew?! This is Gozer, he's awesome, he's *your* DEV, and totally not going anywhere!
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
People think PvP gets worse over the years, but factly so it has been equally bad for years.
I think that the PvP community is its own worst enemy. I see so many threads bemoaning op this-and-broken-that, and yet isn't that exactly the flavor of the PvP wrapper?
Sure we are mad, and have a right to be.
But insulting the devs, and the people that have the power to affect change is beyond stupid.
Perhaps someday, when the community decide to be one, I can find some support for my Territory Control tournament idea LOL.
The diminishing returns of what they have been doing are starting to be apparent, and unless they refocus this game is doomed and no longer worth the investment of time and cash our types of players devote to it.
Meh, you're talking about expending effort...
Me no likey effort! Me rage on forums instead!
I hear you but ask yourself this.
If you were a dev that was able to do something, and you were constantly bombarded by such insults... just how accommodating would you feel inclined to be towards the community.
At some point animosity is born on both side.
Treat anyone with a fair amount of respect and dignity works exactly the same.
Q: How long would it take to implement a basic backend ranking system for PVP to vastly improve the quality of queued matches?
A: Less than one week for a single person.
For more than 3 years now Cryptic has been unwilling to spend this one week of dev time. That's how much they care about PVP.
I don't think you understand the relationship between dev's and players as well as you should.
Respect comes from, amongst other things; good communication and good deeds. It's the feedback loop that a lot of successful game developers are really keying into.
The STO community has always been exceptionally good at initiating and attempting good communication from the start, and with dev's interacting with and by promoting player initiatives, you create a vitreous cycle. Things break down when the feedback loop breaks, when the dev's stop talking (in our case about PVP) and the player base, who have nothing to direct their once productive energies, have little else beyond attention seeking, abuse or dis-interest.
In this situation, only the developers can re-initiate the feedback loop and re-establish a vitreous cycle. Asking the players to do so is an exercise in futility.
I to used to hold the Developers in such high regard. And i'm a firm believer in not biting the hand that feeds me.
But, such things as respect go both ways. The only dev i have just cause to respect is Gozer, he was honest with us, he explained the reality and he respected our constructive feedback. But before and since him, we've had nothing but lies and half-baked promises. So i have the right to be annoyed. The idea of a dev being in our sub forum when they willingly ruin PvP has become a bad joke. I don't care if they're too busy for us. I don't feel the need to view one dev besides another so long as nothing happens. The chap who tweaked Kerrat, notwithstanding.
I don't mind biting the hand, it doesn't feed me anyway.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Probably because they could never make [Borg] modifier ever work. Just like they seem to never be able to make FAW work as intended or designed.
Elite Defense Stovokor
The problem here is that you're under the erroneous impression that the Dev-Player relationship is akin to friendship. The truth is that they are a business and we are clients. They don't work on the game out of an altruistic desire to bring joy to all the trekkies out there, they do it in the hopes that we'll like it so much we give them money.
But I guess there are enough whales in the STOcean to keep them afloat without having to worry about providing a polished product to keep the lights on in the Cryptic offices, so nevermind.
Drk, I was just wondering whatever happened to your Territorial Control project. I'll tell you what... you, Hilbert, and those who organize tournaments seem willing to throw down you time and efforts towards the game... I'd be happy to donate specifically to your two causes (TC and Mancoms Leaderboard/Team Builder). Throw a Donate Now button up, and I'll spare what I can.
Honestly, I would be extremely excited to see your TC project get off the ground, and actually get rolling...
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
anyway
I try to enjoy all aspects of the game. Yes, I have my favorites and I also have my gripes (legitimate or not), but it's everything combined that keeps me coming back. The game is great. I love it.
Thanks for the encouragement mate. You have always been friendly towards me like that and I really do appreciate it.
I am still working on this project, though it will just need to be something less sassy than I had hoped for.
My leadership board is shot out the water, so if Hilbert would like to collaborate with me on this he has the stage on it.
Here's my promise. I will carry on doing my work
All I will need is some folks to assist with the organisation of the "Sector Map" Tournaments as Adjudicators of sorts.
Honestly. I believe its a great benchmark opportunity for the devs to see what we come up with and what we enjoy. really. Thats my thoughts.
And as I said a long time ago - Brandon is committed to supporting something. Perhaps he is still keen.
Its really simple.
1.) I will do all the map creations etc. Each planet in STO will have its own Sector Map (This is a better idea of what the maps will look like with the allocation points etc)
2.) Folks register their factional teams.
3.) Pew Pew.
4.) I give the winners their prize allocation points which they decide how to use.
5. ) We plan the next tournament for uncontrolled Sector + private challenges for controlled Sector maps players handle themselves.
Whatever I can do to help... Just let me know
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Will do mate thanks!
I haven't PvPed as long as many of the others here, but I will say...
Really? You brought up THAT tournament? That was like from LAST year or something if memory serves. Yeah it was a storm of issues to put it mildly, but that was at least a year ago, not '5 months'. I'm not denying what happened, but just saying that you're using a very old example on today's PvP situation. A lot of the things don't really apply as much.
Also, those 'masses' don't just include new people and those who just want to enjoy PvP, it also includes AFKers, cheese players/teams, and so on.
Yes, the devs may be focused on PvE, but that is also a never-ending beast. They ALWAYS have to keep making PvE stuff because no MMO can handle the rate people can go through it. Heck, there's already people getting tier 3 Dyson rep. If they did work on something PvP, at least that is self-sustaining. Just some attention and time: A couple new maps, some fixes for existing issues, a new game mode possibly.
Actually they could do the guild wars approach where some "PvP" is with different abilities etc and all preset. Kinda like that last bit in the obelisk at the end of sphere of influence but massively toned down (Worf is OP, nerf him) thus alleviating many balancing issues.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Of all the people to nerf, you would nerf a klingon, wouldn't you?
Elite Defense Stovokor