There are times that we are our own worst enemy. Watching a tournament form (especially after ground rules are announced) is a telling indicator on just how decisive we as a community are. The flame wars, the accusations (this Fleet uses cheese, that Fleet uses broken mechanics, this guy over here uses bots). It is little surprise to me really, that they are hesitant to touch PvP with a 10 foot pole.
Bootcamp's idea of a Senate was an attempt to bring the PvP Community together (at least on some level) that would allow some open/controlled discourse and discussion... it got slammed on (unfairly) because none of the PvP Fleets would participate (It was the fleets themselves that slammed it for not having any PvP Fleets... but none of them would sign up). It was open to all, but they doomed it before it started. At differing times, several people brought up the propolsals for Codes of Ethics/Conduct for experienced PvP players/teams... those go nowhere. Why? Because everyone is convinced that noone will follow them. Noone is even willing to go on record and say.. Yup.. I'll do it... at least a very few people are willing to publicly say they will.
Edit: People hide behind 1 of 2 excuses... PvP Team Excuse: We can't police our teams, tell people how to play... and The Other Guy: i.e. Well, its great but you know "That Fleet" will never follow this....
Both are hollow excuses really. You may not be able to tell another player how to play... but you can choose who represents you. (Speaking to the fleets here). And as for the other excuse... I purposefully follow the Code of Ethics I put down, with full knowledge that others do not. Doesn't bother me... I still win some, and lose some. I am also still convinced that the "premades" (even those who don't regularly run together (ie.e a team from the same PvP fleet, but not a "regular" team... would do just fine in the Queues with Common Mk XI gear, and no doffs.
Instead we are in the exact same place we were a year, two years ago (worse if you ask me)... Mimey, you commented that it was wrong to bring up "THAT Tournament" from a year ago (paraphrasing). But, ask yourself... what has really changed about the community in that year? Would doing it again now produce a different result?
I don't think so.
In this thread we already see people rolling out their list of broken promises, stealing from other factions, and so on... these types of attitudes really are not going to progress us at all.
There are times that we are our own worst enemy. Watching a tournament form (especially after ground rules are announced) is a telling indicator on just how decisive we as a community are. The flame wars, the accusations (this Fleet uses cheese, that Fleet uses broken mechanics, this guy over here uses bots). It is little surprise to me really, that they are hesitant to touch PvP with a 10 foot pole.
Bootcamp's idea of a Senate was an attempt to bring the PvP Community together (at least on some level) that would allow some open/controlled discourse and discussion... it got slammed on (unfairly) because none of the PvP Fleets would participate (It was the fleets themselves that slammed it for not having any PvP Fleets... but none of them would sign up). It was open to all, but they doomed it before it started. At differing times, several people brought up the propolsals for Codes of Ethics/Conduct for experienced PvP players/teams... those go nowhere. Why? Because everyone is convinced that noone will follow them. Noone is even willing to go on record and say.. Yup.. I'll do it... at least a very few people are willing to publicly say they will.
Edit: People hide behind 1 of 2 excuses... PvP Team Excuse: We can't police our teams, tell people how to play... and The Other Guy: i.e. Well, its great but you know "That Fleet" will never follow this....
Both are hollow excuses really. You may not be able to tell another player how to play... but you can choose who represents you. (Speaking to the fleets here). And as for the other excuse... I purposefully follow the Code of Ethics I put down, with full knowledge that others do not. Doesn't bother me... I still win some, and lose some. I am also still convinced that the "premades" (even those who don't regularly run together (ie.e a team from the same PvP fleet, but not a "regular" team... would do just fine in the Queues with Common Mk XI gear, and no doffs.
Instead we are in the exact same place we were a year, two years ago (worse if you ask me)... Mimey, you commented that it was wrong to bring up "THAT Tournament" from a year ago (paraphrasing). But, ask yourself... what has really changed about the community in that year? Would doing it again now produce a different result?
I don't think so.
In this thread we already see people rolling out their list of broken promises, stealing from other factions, and so on... these types of attitudes really are not going to progress us at all.
Well some PvPers have acknowledge not all PvE players are morons who smash their heads on space bar till they get their slice of dilithium. In fact I've run with some of them and it was quite nice to be a part of the team and use team play for a change despite there really being no reason to do so due to easiness of PvE.
So I think there has been a slight change in attitudes certainly between the 2 aspects of the game.
Btw Ultimatum does not mind if you turn up for an STF in a Miranda FYI =P
Seriously when this game releases, the STO Devs will notice a massive exodus. I and many others have already stopped spending money on STO for the OP's reason, peristant neglect of PVP.
We are tired and sick of the grind and broken mechanics of PVP. The endless false promises and hopes. Enough is enough, vote with your wallets and leave this game while you still have your dignity and sanity, Don't be another PVE grinder where there is no endpoint, just another dilithium grinder.
This game used to be fun but all this power creep and grind is really killing the game.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Relying on players to do anything but to exploit a games mechanics to it's fullest is dumb.
If you have made a game that counts on players not doing this, you have made a poor game.
Trying to blame the players for a game being poor whilst said players successfully play plenty of other games is incredibly insulting.
Like I've already said, the developers are 100% responsible for the level of toxicity within there community.
I don't think you know how percentages work. The devs might be 10% responsibile- that means they have a degree of responsibility, they might even have the initial responsibility having made the means to have this community. But ascribing 100% responsibility is classic, classic internet anonymity blaming.
"I'm not an arsehole, it's [Cryptic's] fault!"
One does not follow the other, and stating that it does is in fact a logical fallacy.
A game can make you angry, sad, happy, interested, or uninterested- but it can't make you an arsehole. It can't make you enjoy seeing others in pain, enjoy when you know that you have caused them to have less fun and it can't make you enjoy reveling in the knowledge that they might quit the game forever because of your own personal actions.
There are lots of people out there in this game, and to take the blame for their own actions from them and say "Nah, it's all the devs fault", would be disingenuous to the extreme.
You might as well say "It's the US Government's fault I murdered that guy. They should have banned guns."
There are people who DO say that. They're psychopaths. Ultimately, your actions are your own. Does Cryptic take in some blame for enabling you to take that option? Yes. Violent gun crime occurs for a number of factors, one of which is that guns exist. But that doesn't mean you are morally or professionally obligated to murder everyone in sight- and it doesn't mean that you have an obligation to run a full TIF synching scramble doffing subnucing PVP premade, even though, yes, you are able to.
Just because you can do something doesn't make it right.
I don't think you know how percentages work. The devs might be 10% responsibile- that means they have a degree of responsibility, they might even have the initial responsibility having made the means to have this community. But ascribing 100% responsibility is classic, classic internet anonymity blaming.
"I"m not an arsehole, it's [Cryptic's] fault!"
One does not follow the other, and stating that it does is in fact a logical fallacy.
A game can make you angry, sad, happy, interested, or uninterested- but it can't make you an arsehole. It can't make you enjoy seeing others in pain, enjoy when you know that you have caused them to have less fun and it can't make you enjoy reveling in the knowledge that they might quit the game forever because of your own personal actions.
There are lots of people out there in this game, and to take the blame for their own actions from them and say "Nah, it's all the devs fault", would be disingenuous to the extreme.
You might as well say "It's the US Government's fault I murdered that guy. They should have banned guns."
There are people who DO say that. They're psychopaths. Ultimately, your actions are your own. Does Cryptic take in some blame for enabling you to take that option? Yes. Violent gun crime occurs for a number of factors, one of which is that guns exist. But that doesn't mean you are morally or professionally obligated to murder everyone in sight- and it doesn't mean that you have an obligation to run a full TIF synching scramble doffing subnucing PVP premade, even though, yes, you are able to.
Just because you can do something doesn't make it right.
You can never control someone's behaviours but the devs can at least have control over the mechanics, consoles and ships which unfortunately are power creep and Cheese. That way you don't provide a nuke to a maniac
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
You can never control someone's behaviours but the devs can at least have control over the mechanics, consoles and ships which unfortunately are power creep and Cheese. That way you don't provide a nuke to a maniac
Oh I agree. There's a way to fix the most egrarious of the abuse- namely TIF, and it's changing it to be in line with all the other powers.
Don't let them stack. If they don't stack their effects, 90% of the problems with them go away. The other 10% can be dealt with by having any cooldown increase effect provide a temporary immunity to ALL OTHER cooldown increase effects. Subnuke someone? Scramble + TIF isn't going to compound it. TIF someone? Your buddy activating TIF after yours expires isn't going to affect them for at least some of its duration.
Instead we are in the exact same place we were a year, two years ago (worse if you ask me)... Mimey, you commented that it was wrong to bring up "THAT Tournament" from a year ago (paraphrasing). But, ask yourself... what has really changed about the community in that year? Would doing it again now produce a different result?
Now, honestly, I won't deny that there are still problems with the community and such. Not gonna deny it at all. BUT, I do believe things are better since 'that tournament'. And this is why:
No BS Tournaments.
With the exception of the 3rd one, every No BS tournament; including the most recent of a Tyler Durden-style one, which also saw a bunch of PvPers who had never been in any tournaments, including me, join and do pretty darn good, has been extremely successful.
Yes the 3rd one had...issues, but it's still the past, and it's been the exception, not the rule, as it were.
No BS tournaments work, because it's a set amount of rules, ones that most of us here agree on. There will ALWAYS be people who gripe about something like TIF, saying it's not that bad or whatever.
I DO think it could work, if we kept it to a Tyler Durden-style tournament (just keep teams mixed up, no premades), and a set of No BS rules like we had for the previous one, it could go well. If Cryptic supported it, with Zen prizes and such, I have a feeling that the base would be very solid. Now, if, at that point, people in our community screwed it up again much like 'that tournament', then at that point, the issue is entirely on us for causing it again. If that did happen, I think I would've lost all hope for the community here, but don't misunderstand, I don't think that would happen. The last tournament went EXTREMELY well.
(On a side note: If this ever did happen, it'd be nice of Cryptic spent some time fixing the most common rules on the No BS rules list, like TIF, GPG, and EMP Burst. It'd be really nice just to be able to remove some rules, because as long as they are there, they're kind of a big eye-sore of a sign that says 'hey, these particular items are so bad, even PvPers hate dealing with them them, and we've not done anything about them'. Maybe I'm over-exaggerating, but it's something I just thought of, and would look better to have a list that didn't need to ban any items or powers.)
Seriously when this game releases, the STO Devs will notice a massive exodus. I and many others have already stopped spending money on STO for the OP's reason, peristant neglect of PVP.
We are tired and sick of the grind and broken mechanics of PVP. The endless false promises and hopes. Enough is enough, vote with your wallets and leave this game while you still have your dignity and sanity, Don't be another PVE grinder where there is no endpoint, just another dilithium grinder.
This game used to be fun but all this power creep and grind is really killing the game.
I admit, I've also joined the Church of Christ Roberts. But it kinda makes me giggle a bit. We've seen similar posts before about other games, like SWTOR, MWO, WoT, etc. And while people did leave, it's never been as much of the 'mass exodus' as people thought.
I'm not saying that SC won't pull people away, possibly for good, just that I doubt it'll be 'the' game to pull everyone away. Neither will any other upcoming MMO.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I don't think you know how percentages work. The devs might be 10% responsibile- that means they have a degree of responsibility, they might even have the initial responsibility having made the means to have this community. But ascribing 100% responsibility is classic, classic internet anonymity blaming.
"I'm not an arsehole, it's [Cryptic's] fault!"
One does not follow the other, and stating that it does is in fact a logical fallacy.
A game can make you angry, sad, happy, interested, or uninterested- but it can't make you an arsehole. It can't make you enjoy seeing others in pain, enjoy when you know that you have caused them to have less fun and it can't make you enjoy reveling in the knowledge that they might quit the game forever because of your own personal actions.
There are lots of people out there in this game, and to take the blame for their own actions from them and say "Nah, it's all the devs fault", would be disingenuous to the extreme.
You might as well say "It's the US Government's fault I murdered that guy. They should have banned guns."
There are people who DO say that. They're psychopaths. Ultimately, your actions are your own. Does Cryptic take in some blame for enabling you to take that option? Yes. Violent gun crime occurs for a number of factors, one of which is that guns exist. But that doesn't mean you are morally or professionally obligated to murder everyone in sight- and it doesn't mean that you have an obligation to run a full TIF synching scramble doffing subnucing PVP premade, even though, yes, you are able to.
Just because you can do something doesn't make it right.
As a developer, you should expect the player base to push, break, exploit and surprise you by how they interact with your game. The games and developers that have been most successful are the ones that run with that characteristic, positively reacting to it whenever possible, and swiftly dealing with problems when they are manifested.
The dev's in STO just don't give a **** about PvP imbalances, especially when they relate to $$$ gear and items that would cost them more money, and generate more anger from the carebares than they could ever gain in positive responses in the pvp crowd. So... whine all you like about your pet peeves and the players who use them, but until the people with the power to actually do anything about it fix the rules, or change the game, it is the game.
Also, your "guns don't kill people" skitch was cute. /s
So while I to some extent can agree with some of what youve said, I also have to consider that as an industry insider (not this game or company of course) I know first hand that everything he said is as legitimate as it can be. He wants to do it, he is practically chomping at the bit to get time to do it because he knows the game needs it. But he has to find time around the rest of the work to get it done. New always takes precedence over old.
So... you're more or less agreeing with the OP, just making it sound less terrible? :rolleyes:
Lets just call it like it is. F2P allowed Cryptic to make more money, potentially saving the company, but has doomed the games to have any kind of retention beyond a very small hard core group that wants to cling to anything trek as hard as it can. Maybe Cryptic has always had the odds stacked against it, but ultimately they are a company that has taken our money and most of us are not satisfied. We really, really want to be though, if not none of us would still bother.
For me I don't think the devs or anyone is ignoring PvP. I simply think the game is not robust and comprehensive enough to allow for good PvP and PvE play at the same time. I feel they would have to create separate skill tree, ability, and weapon modifiers for PvP that are separate from the PVE balance. That would mean they would ahve to expand their database system and Geko commented on the size of the data storage that STO requires already.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
Maybe Cryptic has always had the odds stacked against it, but ultimately they are a company that has taken our money and most of us are not satisfied. We really, really want to be though, if not none of us would still bother.
STO was rushed, and really is not robust as a game. The easiest explanation of this is we do not even get to control when our ship is in Red Alert, we can't raise our own shields, and we ahve very limited navigation control over our ship in withdraw or Z axis movement.
This game is a graphical immersion game, not a sophisticated mechanic game.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
It probably has to do more with PWE's business model than Cryptic's willingness to produce more PvP content.
From what I can gather, most of the titles under PWE's distribution are PvE centric and if there's any PvP at all, it meets the bare minimum as a definition of PvP.
I agree though that the majority revenue from C-store Ship and Lockbox Key sales come from PvP'rs looking to get score any kind of quick edge on the field while most F2P'rs are content with their free ships and consoles from new season launch missions and Rep stores as PWE would be wise to recognize this.
Bootcamp's idea of a Senate was an attempt to bring the PvP Community together (at least on some level) that would allow some open/controlled discourse and discussion... it got slammed on (unfairly) because none of the PvP Fleets would participate (It was the fleets themselves that slammed it for not having any PvP Fleets... but none of them would sign up). It was open to all, but they doomed it before it started. At differing times, several people brought up the propolsals for Codes of Ethics/Conduct for experienced PvP players/teams... those go nowhere. Why? Because everyone is convinced that noone will follow them. Noone is even willing to go on record and say.. Yup.. I'll do it... at least a very few people are willing to publicly say they will.
Actually, that couldn't be further from the truth.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Actually, that couldn't be further from the truth.
Really? Becuase i actively watched the Forums regarding the Senate... signed up for it, and waited for the PvP Fleets to join.. none did. When the first meeting was scheduled, the posts regarding how it was pointless because there were no PvP fleets in the Senate (made by members of PvP Fleets) rolled in... In fact, you were the first one to say it wasn't going to work because
What's the point of this? Half of the fleets there can't even put a premade together, and the other half aren't even PVP fleets. What the hell do they have to talk about for the betterment of PVP?
Really? Becuase i actively watched the Forums regarding the Senate... signed up for it, and waited for the PvP Fleets to join.. none did. When the first meeting was scheduled, the posts regarding how it was pointless because there were no PvP fleets in the Senate (made by members of PvP Fleets) rolled in... In fact, you were the first one to say it wasn't going to work because
Before it was even attempted, before anyone gave it a chance... it was submarined.
Oh! I had no idea I had the power to influence the community so singlehandedly. I should be very careful with such power...
It's true, no PvP fleets signed up. However, it wouldn't matter if every said proclaimed PvP fleet did represent itself at your tea-party, there is currently NO indication that Cryptic would take even the slightest bit of notice of what ever deliberations would be decided. To think we would even agree on anything in the first place is a joke! Don't sit on your horse and say "Well, it's your fault for not trying it!" When I can compare the pointlessness to trying to fly by flapping my arms and jumping into the air. I haven't tried it, but I think i'm smart enough to see the pointlessness.
You want a PvP tea-party? Go ahead, I won't say a single word! If you get Cryptic to listen to what get decided and then act on it, then go right on! Here, take this snowball, I hear hell is vasty over-rated temperature wise
Don't label me a pessimist, label me a realist.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
There are times that we are our own worst enemy. Watching a tournament form (especially after ground rules are announced) is a telling indicator on just how decisive we as a community are. The flame wars, the accusations...
Nearly every one of those flame-wars for organized things usually at the heart had some broken mechanic or some item's power in question.
Those are two things directly under the developer's control, and not player control.
The flame-wars erupt when players attempt to assert control (for good or for ill) on such things.
For many of those things in question we can't even get the devs to comment "Yeah, working as intended".
So it's no wonder that the well is now full of nothing but poison and vitriol.
Really? Becuase i actively watched the Forums regarding the Senate... signed up for it, and waited for the PvP Fleets to join.. none did.
Originally Jedi was talking to many of us privately, I spoke to him on a few occasions about the senate.
I even told him to let me know when he had more information ready or when he was moving into the next stage - I was ready to participate.
When I later inquired about where it was after that (maybe 1 or 2 months later), I simply heard the whole thing was cancelled.
I'm guessing at some point Jedi was no longer involved for whatever reason.
Beyond that, I don't know what went on behind the scenes - I don't really hear much of anything about whats going on at BC since it suddenly moved servers and kolln seemed to take over.
I used to think insulting dev's was a moronic thing to do too. But they've been willfully neglectful over this thing for a while now. With season 8, not just amongst the pvp'ers, I've seen a surprising down tick in excitement, and very few coming out of the woodwork to try/grind new content.
The diminishing returns of what they have been doing are starting to be apparent, and unless they refocus this game is doomed and no longer worth the investment of time and cash our types of players devote to it.
Yup, it's not only PvP that is messed up. The whole keep adding content and squash only some bugs mentality among devs has made bugs pile up season after season, and, despite pleas for them to only work on bug squashing for a period of time, they just keep on pushing more content and annoying bugs. I don't even know why I post this on a weekend. The only dev that seems to read weekend posts is tacofangs, which is why I refresh my posts on bugs on Mondays.
Realist... maybe... in regards to what Cryptic will do... I'll grant that.
Pessimist in regards to player initiatives.... you are pretty active in the forums... and a respected PVP'er... It would go a long way if the other respected PvP'ers and PvP Fleets would do something other than "wont work, why bother"
Pessimist in regards to player initiatives.... you are pretty active in the forums... and a respected PVP'er... It would go a long way if the other respected PvP'ers and PvP Fleets would do something other than "wont work, why bother"
The guys saying that have tried.
They've spent a ton of energy, dealt with no end of frustrating situations, flame-wars, in-fighting and where are we now?
Balance is continually trampled, the devs show little to no interest in unwinding and re-tuning mechanics on the whole.
At some point, you just give up as a player. You decide to enjoy what there is to enjoy or move on.
It's exhausting. I know its easy for you to sit there and say we should all do something about it - well, go for it. Sometimes fresh blood and new energy is what's needed instead of everyone sitting around and waiting for "big PvP" fleets to organize more things.
If the devs even showed the tiniest glimmer that real changes were in the works you might see more interest, more enthusiasm, more positivity - but they haven't outside of a few tiny changes here and there.
My enthusiasm and positivity for this game is currently nil.
The devs simply do not care (in an organized way) about PvP outside of when they randomly and arbitrarily decide to look in on some mechanic or use these forums as an idea farm on what they could develop to sell to us for profit.
Realist... maybe... in regards to what Cryptic will do... I'll grant that.
Pessimist in regards to player initiatives.... you are pretty active in the forums... and a respected PVP'er... It would go a long way if the other respected PvP'ers and PvP Fleets would do something other than "wont work, why bother"
I'm not sure who you are or how long you've been playing, but you should know by now that the problems in PvP aren't new. What you are seeing as pessimism is a lot closer to realism than you think... with a whole lot of bitter thrown in.
Cryptic has neglected this aspect of the game since launch. The biggest PvP change they have ever made was to remove a map/game type entirely. Exploitable bugs, broken mechanics and graphical issues (ewp/GW,etc.) have always been a part of the game.
As a result, many of us hardcore veterans, who still love the game despite its faults, have witnessed and participated in previous Player-driven initiatives. There was the famous "Gentlemen's Agreement," any number of tournaments that devolved into flame wars (before and/or after), and any number of smaller attempts to establish a PvP code of ethics or conduct. PvP BootCamps initial successes were lonely bright lights in the history of player sponsored PvP events. The main difference between those and the failures: PvP BootCamp made no official attempt to establish what was broken/exploitable/un-fun, etc..
PvPers will never agree on everything, and trust me, they don't like to lose. What do you think would have happened had the Senate successfully started and actually gotten Cryptic to pay attention? I have a guess, and it's based on experience. Many someones will not be happy with almost everything that happens. You will take away someone's build, or nerf their this or that... It will get ugly on here. It's what happens. It has happened before and it will all happen again. Some of us have simply chosen to no longer put ourselves in the line of QQ fire.
They've spent a ton of energy, dealt with no end of frustrating situations, flame-wars, in-fighting and where are we now?
Balance is continually trampled, the devs show little to no interest in unwinding and re-tuning mechanics on the whole.
At some point, you just give up as a player. You decide to enjoy what there is to enjoy or move on.
It's exhausting. I know its easy for you to sit there and say we should all do something about it - well, go for it. Sometimes fresh blood and new energy is what's needed instead of everyone sitting around and waiting for "big PvP" fleets to organize more things.
If the devs even showed the tiniest glimmer that real changes were in the works you might see more interest, more enthusiasm, more positivity - but they haven't outside of a few tiny changes here and there.
My enthusiasm and positivity for this game is currently nil.
The devs simply do not care (in an organized way) about PvP outside of when they randomly and arbitrarily decide to look in on some mechanic or use these forums as an idea farm on what they could develop to sell to us for profit.
Your opinions sadly are shared by a lot of fellow PVPers instead.
The only good thing about this is it makes us looks elsewhere for a new challenge.
This game is aging, the graphics are old. They don't even update the engine since launch. Planetside 2 recently updated their engine and graphics to make use of today's graphics card. An old HD4000 On board graphics could run this game, thats evident enough of how outdated it is.
Had a fleetmate upload Star citizen and it crashed on his laptop, but ran beautifully on PC.
Jump to another game while there are options to start a new. SWTOR new space pvp is coming out in a few weeks, Star citizen Pre alpha Dog fighting module comes out next month too.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Please don't misunderstand me, Johnny. I don't just sit here and throw tomatos on every idea I see, or every fresh-faced player brave enough to try and fight PvP. I've been in the community for a few years now and i've seen far too many of the exact same thread, with the same few ideas at it's root that then lead to the same old argument. I feel sorry for those that have been here longer, I'm sure there are players posting that have PvPed here far longer then I!
But I've recently come to realise, what many did before me, that until Cryptic step in we can't do enough to save ourselves.
The day Cryptic put a blog up publicly saying that they intend to do XYZ for PvP, and give us some solid dates, the amount of people in this sub-forum, Kerrat, the queues, Bootcamp and OPvP will drastically increase as time will go on, and that'd be awesome. But we ourselves cannot do that.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Seriously when this game releases, the STO Devs will notice a massive exodus
I've already invested in Star Citizen, though the cost of entry is pretty high, and I promised myself I would never pre-purchase another game after the SimCity debacle. If their PvP is any good at all, it will really eat into my STO play time. WoT has already done this.
__________________________________
STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
As it was said before many times, if a Dev step in here and spoke---what do they face?
Pure undaunted venom on many issues with the game. The great shroud of black is apparently more in abundance than the light that shines hope and decency wants in a while.
*Except for the rare that do, and has decent standing with this community* No gamer maker wants to rumble with the headache on the dealing with the *negative* feedback that gushes towards them in massive torrents.
And yes, all the complaints that froth forward do have a legit leg to stand on, but it has gone beyond that these days. Correction---just after the game went live after Beta, and just gotten much darker.
We got an Old Engine, outdated, we got new techniques being added to it, and sometimes, things break. We have a company trying to headway in a very competitive market. We have gamers, trying to enjoy something of this game, but it felt more of a chore *like work*, then being fun, I could go on, but mostly everyone here knows the fire drill.
On both sides of the coin, developer and gamer alike...there are certain things going on, that don't sit well. If any of you knows this dismay taste at your own job, then recognized these here *developers* are no different than you, when you have a bad day, week, month or a few years.
Devs commit? If the atmosphere was better for all, maybe...as I told folks at my job, I am not there to be cursed at, abused or demeaned. I am there to do a job, and if some fun is possible, that too. And yes, I am aware of the history of this company and the game, came in a few months after Beta.
What I see a lot mostly and it bares repeating...folks * in general* forget outright, that people at Cryptic are human too.
This! PvPers are pure profit for Cryptic since they put 0% effort into improving PvP. But PvPers buy the most expensive gears and lock boxes dominate PvP. I guess their calculus is that people will PvP no matter what and they will keep making OP consoles, doffs and ships that will appeal to them.
However, with little to new blood coming into PvP I wonder how long the gravy train will run. After all, I can easily imagine a dedicated PvPer spending 100 million EC on a build. I don't see players grinding and rofl-stomping easy PvE content doing the same.
Considering the neglect, they also don't want to give anyone an incentive to roll a Klingon...it took them three years to do the Tutorial that they also simultaneiously developed for the Romulans in six months, the emptiness of the C-store for KDF, the shelving of any new product for KDF, while handing out the best KDF items, etc. etc..
Bugs, broken abilities, unfinished features, untested abilities, ignoring testing on Tribble, ignoring Bug reports, launching with KNOWN ISSUES IN PLACE every single season, lack of QA, lack of response to Quality issues...
The PvP'ers in other games ARE the 'Whales' who spend the money, just like well managed games draw lots of money from ALL their factions, even the ones with only 18% of the population...
But Cryptic's demonstrated no interest in that. You can't call 'em Money-Grubbers, because MONEY GRUBBERS would've been doing everything possible to increase profits, by bringing to market things that people will buy, and pursuing O'mightydollah by digging and finding out what's going to sell, what features they can install that will encourage spending as opposed to grinding, etc.
PvE is LOW RETURN, PvP is LOW INVESTMENT-but the emphasis is on PvE. So it's not about money with Cryptic. *(it takes about a tenth the art resources, writing, etc. to do up a map for PvP and add a leaderboard, that it does to do a map like New Romulus, and the PvP map's likely to be 'lighter' in terms of code since you're not animating as many NPC's. storing Dialogue, etc.)
who buys them lockbox keys? Who buys them DOFFPaks for a chance at that purple Doff or that Bugship? It's not the STF guys who are running time-trials. It's PvP'ers.
but somehow, that doesn't MATTER to Cryptic, so it's not about money.
Not sure WHAT it's about, maybe Dinosaurs with Lasers on their Hedz...and any other vanity projects that occur to the lead, but it's not driven by the desire to increase profits.
and if it is..well...they need to find them a Ferengi to explain the Third Rule of Acquisition to them.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
As it was said before many times, if a Dev step in here and spoke---what do they face?
Pure undaunted venom on many issues with the game. The great shroud of black is apparently more in abundance than the light that shines hope and decency wants in a while.
*Except for the rare that do, and has decent standing with this community* No gamer maker wants to rumble with the headache on the dealing with the *negative* feedback that gushes towards them in massive torrents.
And yes, all the complaints that froth forward do have a legit leg to stand on, but it has gone beyond that these days. Correction---just after the game went live after Beta, and just gotten much darker.
We got an Old Engine, outdated, we got new techniques being added to it, and sometimes, things break. We have a company trying to headway in a very competitive market. We have gamers, trying to enjoy something of this game, but it felt more of a chore *like work*, then being fun, I could go on, but mostly everyone here knows the fire drill.
On both sides of the coin, developer and gamer alike...there are certain things going on, that don't sit well. If any of you knows this dismay taste at your own job, then recognized these here *developers* are no different than you, when you have a bad day, week, month or a few years.
Devs commit? If the atmosphere was better for all, maybe...as I told folks at my job, I am not there to be cursed at, abused or demeaned. I am there to do a job, and if some fun is possible, that too. And yes, I am aware of the history of this company and the game, came in a few months after Beta.
What I see a lot mostly and it bares repeating...folks * in general* forget outright, that people at Cryptic are human too.
We all are...and not a selective few.
I don't know about the gaming industry, but in every other industry you can't ignore your customers because you don't like their attitude. It's just not an option. Regardless of the tone in here, the total lack of dev participation in PvP discussions is a HUGE customer service failure, period. Imagine your waitress refusing to come back to the table because you complained about the fly in your soup...
It is a numbers game. I doubt more than 1% of the pop PvPs on a regular basis. So devs don't care since those that do will continue to do so. Most (nooblets) who try it never come back because everything is so distorted.
RIP Casual PvP ... *shakes fist @ Cryptic*
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Comments
There are times that we are our own worst enemy. Watching a tournament form (especially after ground rules are announced) is a telling indicator on just how decisive we as a community are. The flame wars, the accusations (this Fleet uses cheese, that Fleet uses broken mechanics, this guy over here uses bots). It is little surprise to me really, that they are hesitant to touch PvP with a 10 foot pole.
Bootcamp's idea of a Senate was an attempt to bring the PvP Community together (at least on some level) that would allow some open/controlled discourse and discussion... it got slammed on (unfairly) because none of the PvP Fleets would participate (It was the fleets themselves that slammed it for not having any PvP Fleets... but none of them would sign up). It was open to all, but they doomed it before it started. At differing times, several people brought up the propolsals for Codes of Ethics/Conduct for experienced PvP players/teams... those go nowhere. Why? Because everyone is convinced that noone will follow them. Noone is even willing to go on record and say.. Yup.. I'll do it... at least a very few people are willing to publicly say they will.
Edit: People hide behind 1 of 2 excuses... PvP Team Excuse: We can't police our teams, tell people how to play... and The Other Guy: i.e. Well, its great but you know "That Fleet" will never follow this....
Both are hollow excuses really. You may not be able to tell another player how to play... but you can choose who represents you. (Speaking to the fleets here). And as for the other excuse... I purposefully follow the Code of Ethics I put down, with full knowledge that others do not. Doesn't bother me... I still win some, and lose some. I am also still convinced that the "premades" (even those who don't regularly run together (ie.e a team from the same PvP fleet, but not a "regular" team... would do just fine in the Queues with Common Mk XI gear, and no doffs.
Instead we are in the exact same place we were a year, two years ago (worse if you ask me)... Mimey, you commented that it was wrong to bring up "THAT Tournament" from a year ago (paraphrasing). But, ask yourself... what has really changed about the community in that year? Would doing it again now produce a different result?
I don't think so.
In this thread we already see people rolling out their list of broken promises, stealing from other factions, and so on... these types of attitudes really are not going to progress us at all.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Well some PvPers have acknowledge not all PvE players are morons who smash their heads on space bar till they get their slice of dilithium. In fact I've run with some of them and it was quite nice to be a part of the team and use team play for a change despite there really being no reason to do so due to easiness of PvE.
So I think there has been a slight change in attitudes certainly between the 2 aspects of the game.
Btw Ultimatum does not mind if you turn up for an STF in a Miranda FYI =P
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
If you have made a game that counts on players not doing this, you have made a poor game.
Trying to blame the players for a game being poor whilst said players successfully play plenty of other games is incredibly insulting.
Like I've already said, the developers are 100% responsible for the level of toxicity within there community.
Seriously when this game releases, the STO Devs will notice a massive exodus. I and many others have already stopped spending money on STO for the OP's reason, peristant neglect of PVP.
We are tired and sick of the grind and broken mechanics of PVP. The endless false promises and hopes. Enough is enough, vote with your wallets and leave this game while you still have your dignity and sanity, Don't be another PVE grinder where there is no endpoint, just another dilithium grinder.
This game used to be fun but all this power creep and grind is really killing the game.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
I don't think you know how percentages work. The devs might be 10% responsibile- that means they have a degree of responsibility, they might even have the initial responsibility having made the means to have this community. But ascribing 100% responsibility is classic, classic internet anonymity blaming.
"I'm not an arsehole, it's [Cryptic's] fault!"
One does not follow the other, and stating that it does is in fact a logical fallacy.
A game can make you angry, sad, happy, interested, or uninterested- but it can't make you an arsehole. It can't make you enjoy seeing others in pain, enjoy when you know that you have caused them to have less fun and it can't make you enjoy reveling in the knowledge that they might quit the game forever because of your own personal actions.
There are lots of people out there in this game, and to take the blame for their own actions from them and say "Nah, it's all the devs fault", would be disingenuous to the extreme.
You might as well say "It's the US Government's fault I murdered that guy. They should have banned guns."
There are people who DO say that. They're psychopaths. Ultimately, your actions are your own. Does Cryptic take in some blame for enabling you to take that option? Yes. Violent gun crime occurs for a number of factors, one of which is that guns exist. But that doesn't mean you are morally or professionally obligated to murder everyone in sight- and it doesn't mean that you have an obligation to run a full TIF synching scramble doffing subnucing PVP premade, even though, yes, you are able to.
Just because you can do something doesn't make it right.
You can never control someone's behaviours but the devs can at least have control over the mechanics, consoles and ships which unfortunately are power creep and Cheese. That way you don't provide a nuke to a maniac
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Oh I agree. There's a way to fix the most egrarious of the abuse- namely TIF, and it's changing it to be in line with all the other powers.
Don't let them stack. If they don't stack their effects, 90% of the problems with them go away. The other 10% can be dealt with by having any cooldown increase effect provide a temporary immunity to ALL OTHER cooldown increase effects. Subnuke someone? Scramble + TIF isn't going to compound it. TIF someone? Your buddy activating TIF after yours expires isn't going to affect them for at least some of its duration.
Now, honestly, I won't deny that there are still problems with the community and such. Not gonna deny it at all. BUT, I do believe things are better since 'that tournament'. And this is why:
No BS Tournaments.
With the exception of the 3rd one, every No BS tournament; including the most recent of a Tyler Durden-style one, which also saw a bunch of PvPers who had never been in any tournaments, including me, join and do pretty darn good, has been extremely successful.
Yes the 3rd one had...issues, but it's still the past, and it's been the exception, not the rule, as it were.
No BS tournaments work, because it's a set amount of rules, ones that most of us here agree on. There will ALWAYS be people who gripe about something like TIF, saying it's not that bad or whatever.
I DO think it could work, if we kept it to a Tyler Durden-style tournament (just keep teams mixed up, no premades), and a set of No BS rules like we had for the previous one, it could go well. If Cryptic supported it, with Zen prizes and such, I have a feeling that the base would be very solid. Now, if, at that point, people in our community screwed it up again much like 'that tournament', then at that point, the issue is entirely on us for causing it again. If that did happen, I think I would've lost all hope for the community here, but don't misunderstand, I don't think that would happen. The last tournament went EXTREMELY well.
(On a side note: If this ever did happen, it'd be nice of Cryptic spent some time fixing the most common rules on the No BS rules list, like TIF, GPG, and EMP Burst. It'd be really nice just to be able to remove some rules, because as long as they are there, they're kind of a big eye-sore of a sign that says 'hey, these particular items are so bad, even PvPers hate dealing with them them, and we've not done anything about them'. Maybe I'm over-exaggerating, but it's something I just thought of, and would look better to have a list that didn't need to ban any items or powers.)
I admit, I've also joined the Church of Christ Roberts. But it kinda makes me giggle a bit. We've seen similar posts before about other games, like SWTOR, MWO, WoT, etc. And while people did leave, it's never been as much of the 'mass exodus' as people thought.
I'm not saying that SC won't pull people away, possibly for good, just that I doubt it'll be 'the' game to pull everyone away. Neither will any other upcoming MMO.
As a developer, you should expect the player base to push, break, exploit and surprise you by how they interact with your game. The games and developers that have been most successful are the ones that run with that characteristic, positively reacting to it whenever possible, and swiftly dealing with problems when they are manifested.
The dev's in STO just don't give a **** about PvP imbalances, especially when they relate to $$$ gear and items that would cost them more money, and generate more anger from the carebares than they could ever gain in positive responses in the pvp crowd. So... whine all you like about your pet peeves and the players who use them, but until the people with the power to actually do anything about it fix the rules, or change the game, it is the game.
Also, your "guns don't kill people" skitch was cute. /s
So... you're more or less agreeing with the OP, just making it sound less terrible? :rolleyes:
Lets just call it like it is. F2P allowed Cryptic to make more money, potentially saving the company, but has doomed the games to have any kind of retention beyond a very small hard core group that wants to cling to anything trek as hard as it can. Maybe Cryptic has always had the odds stacked against it, but ultimately they are a company that has taken our money and most of us are not satisfied. We really, really want to be though, if not none of us would still bother.
STO was rushed, and really is not robust as a game. The easiest explanation of this is we do not even get to control when our ship is in Red Alert, we can't raise our own shields, and we ahve very limited navigation control over our ship in withdraw or Z axis movement.
This game is a graphical immersion game, not a sophisticated mechanic game.
From what I can gather, most of the titles under PWE's distribution are PvE centric and if there's any PvP at all, it meets the bare minimum as a definition of PvP.
I agree though that the majority revenue from C-store Ship and Lockbox Key sales come from PvP'rs looking to get score any kind of quick edge on the field while most F2P'rs are content with their free ships and consoles from new season launch missions and Rep stores as PWE would be wise to recognize this.
Actually, that couldn't be further from the truth.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Really? Becuase i actively watched the Forums regarding the Senate... signed up for it, and waited for the PvP Fleets to join.. none did. When the first meeting was scheduled, the posts regarding how it was pointless because there were no PvP fleets in the Senate (made by members of PvP Fleets) rolled in... In fact, you were the first one to say it wasn't going to work because
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=854101&highlight=Senate+Meeting
Before it was even attempted, before anyone gave it a chance... it was submarined.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Oh! I had no idea I had the power to influence the community so singlehandedly. I should be very careful with such power...
It's true, no PvP fleets signed up. However, it wouldn't matter if every said proclaimed PvP fleet did represent itself at your tea-party, there is currently NO indication that Cryptic would take even the slightest bit of notice of what ever deliberations would be decided. To think we would even agree on anything in the first place is a joke! Don't sit on your horse and say "Well, it's your fault for not trying it!" When I can compare the pointlessness to trying to fly by flapping my arms and jumping into the air. I haven't tried it, but I think i'm smart enough to see the pointlessness.
You want a PvP tea-party? Go ahead, I won't say a single word! If you get Cryptic to listen to what get decided and then act on it, then go right on! Here, take this snowball, I hear hell is vasty over-rated temperature wise
Don't label me a pessimist, label me a realist.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Nearly every one of those flame-wars for organized things usually at the heart had some broken mechanic or some item's power in question.
Those are two things directly under the developer's control, and not player control.
The flame-wars erupt when players attempt to assert control (for good or for ill) on such things.
For many of those things in question we can't even get the devs to comment "Yeah, working as intended".
So it's no wonder that the well is now full of nothing but poison and vitriol.
Originally Jedi was talking to many of us privately, I spoke to him on a few occasions about the senate.
I even told him to let me know when he had more information ready or when he was moving into the next stage - I was ready to participate.
When I later inquired about where it was after that (maybe 1 or 2 months later), I simply heard the whole thing was cancelled.
I'm guessing at some point Jedi was no longer involved for whatever reason.
Beyond that, I don't know what went on behind the scenes - I don't really hear much of anything about whats going on at BC since it suddenly moved servers and kolln seemed to take over.
Yup, it's not only PvP that is messed up. The whole keep adding content and squash only some bugs mentality among devs has made bugs pile up season after season, and, despite pleas for them to only work on bug squashing for a period of time, they just keep on pushing more content and annoying bugs. I don't even know why I post this on a weekend. The only dev that seems to read weekend posts is tacofangs, which is why I refresh my posts on bugs on Mondays.
Realist... maybe... in regards to what Cryptic will do... I'll grant that.
Pessimist in regards to player initiatives.... you are pretty active in the forums... and a respected PVP'er... It would go a long way if the other respected PvP'ers and PvP Fleets would do something other than "wont work, why bother"
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
You know why, PVErs don't even know they exist let alone what it does. See the problem, if it aint related to PVE, I don't care
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
The guys saying that have tried.
They've spent a ton of energy, dealt with no end of frustrating situations, flame-wars, in-fighting and where are we now?
Balance is continually trampled, the devs show little to no interest in unwinding and re-tuning mechanics on the whole.
At some point, you just give up as a player. You decide to enjoy what there is to enjoy or move on.
It's exhausting. I know its easy for you to sit there and say we should all do something about it - well, go for it. Sometimes fresh blood and new energy is what's needed instead of everyone sitting around and waiting for "big PvP" fleets to organize more things.
If the devs even showed the tiniest glimmer that real changes were in the works you might see more interest, more enthusiasm, more positivity - but they haven't outside of a few tiny changes here and there.
My enthusiasm and positivity for this game is currently nil.
The devs simply do not care (in an organized way) about PvP outside of when they randomly and arbitrarily decide to look in on some mechanic or use these forums as an idea farm on what they could develop to sell to us for profit.
I'm not sure who you are or how long you've been playing, but you should know by now that the problems in PvP aren't new. What you are seeing as pessimism is a lot closer to realism than you think... with a whole lot of bitter thrown in.
Cryptic has neglected this aspect of the game since launch. The biggest PvP change they have ever made was to remove a map/game type entirely. Exploitable bugs, broken mechanics and graphical issues (ewp/GW,etc.) have always been a part of the game.
As a result, many of us hardcore veterans, who still love the game despite its faults, have witnessed and participated in previous Player-driven initiatives. There was the famous "Gentlemen's Agreement," any number of tournaments that devolved into flame wars (before and/or after), and any number of smaller attempts to establish a PvP code of ethics or conduct. PvP BootCamps initial successes were lonely bright lights in the history of player sponsored PvP events. The main difference between those and the failures: PvP BootCamp made no official attempt to establish what was broken/exploitable/un-fun, etc..
PvPers will never agree on everything, and trust me, they don't like to lose. What do you think would have happened had the Senate successfully started and actually gotten Cryptic to pay attention? I have a guess, and it's based on experience. Many someones will not be happy with almost everything that happens. You will take away someone's build, or nerf their this or that... It will get ugly on here. It's what happens. It has happened before and it will all happen again. Some of us have simply chosen to no longer put ourselves in the line of QQ fire.
Brandon - Sad Pandas
Your opinions sadly are shared by a lot of fellow PVPers instead.
The only good thing about this is it makes us looks elsewhere for a new challenge.
This game is aging, the graphics are old. They don't even update the engine since launch. Planetside 2 recently updated their engine and graphics to make use of today's graphics card. An old HD4000 On board graphics could run this game, thats evident enough of how outdated it is.
Had a fleetmate upload Star citizen and it crashed on his laptop, but ran beautifully on PC.
Jump to another game while there are options to start a new. SWTOR new space pvp is coming out in a few weeks, Star citizen Pre alpha Dog fighting module comes out next month too.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Cryptic Ignores PvP
Brandon - Sad Pandas
But I've recently come to realise, what many did before me, that until Cryptic step in we can't do enough to save ourselves.
The day Cryptic put a blog up publicly saying that they intend to do XYZ for PvP, and give us some solid dates, the amount of people in this sub-forum, Kerrat, the queues, Bootcamp and OPvP will drastically increase as time will go on, and that'd be awesome. But we ourselves cannot do that.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I've already invested in Star Citizen, though the cost of entry is pretty high, and I promised myself I would never pre-purchase another game after the SimCity debacle. If their PvP is any good at all, it will really eat into my STO play time. WoT has already done this.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
Pure undaunted venom on many issues with the game. The great shroud of black is apparently more in abundance than the light that shines hope and decency wants in a while.
*Except for the rare that do, and has decent standing with this community* No gamer maker wants to rumble with the headache on the dealing with the *negative* feedback that gushes towards them in massive torrents.
And yes, all the complaints that froth forward do have a legit leg to stand on, but it has gone beyond that these days. Correction---just after the game went live after Beta, and just gotten much darker.
We got an Old Engine, outdated, we got new techniques being added to it, and sometimes, things break. We have a company trying to headway in a very competitive market. We have gamers, trying to enjoy something of this game, but it felt more of a chore *like work*, then being fun, I could go on, but mostly everyone here knows the fire drill.
On both sides of the coin, developer and gamer alike...there are certain things going on, that don't sit well. If any of you knows this dismay taste at your own job, then recognized these here *developers* are no different than you, when you have a bad day, week, month or a few years.
Devs commit? If the atmosphere was better for all, maybe...as I told folks at my job, I am not there to be cursed at, abused or demeaned. I am there to do a job, and if some fun is possible, that too. And yes, I am aware of the history of this company and the game, came in a few months after Beta.
What I see a lot mostly and it bares repeating...folks * in general* forget outright, that people at Cryptic are human too.
We all are...and not a selective few.
However, with little to new blood coming into PvP I wonder how long the gravy train will run. After all, I can easily imagine a dedicated PvPer spending 100 million EC on a build. I don't see players grinding and rofl-stomping easy PvE content doing the same.
- Judge Aaron Satie
I don't know about the gaming industry, but in every other industry you can't ignore your customers because you don't like their attitude. It's just not an option. Regardless of the tone in here, the total lack of dev participation in PvP discussions is a HUGE customer service failure, period. Imagine your waitress refusing to come back to the table because you complained about the fly in your soup...
RIP Casual PvP ... *shakes fist @ Cryptic*
- Judge Aaron Satie