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The Breach - Escort or GTFO?

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  • jetwtfjetwtf Member Posts: 1,207
    edited November 2013
    had it been me in a vo'quv, i would of dialed down the speed at full impulse enough to make the turn by heading toward the outside heading toward the turn and turning a bit before the turn came up and trying to say as close as possible to the wall your looking for but turning again before the turn if possible to make it around. used to play a lot of sim racing games in the day, so at least something translates to MMO's amazingly. in sim racing games this type of hard wide turning is usually a result of heavy understeer and theb est way around it is using as much of the track as possible and early enough where it can be countered enough.

    Thats called an apex turn and the reason for doing it has nothing to do with understeer but to take the corner at faster speeds by making the corner less tight with a wider turn. less wear on brakes, faster turning to stay in position. A large badly turning vehicle will still need to apply heavy brakes to make the turn.

    @Op
    If you bring the Vo'Quv back into it I highly suggets using 2 fleet RCS consoles and atleast 1 fleet nuetronium with +turn. That will make it far easier to get around the corners with speed adjustments at each one. Even going so far as to put RCS into all the engi slots might be a good idea.
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  • hasukurobihasukurobi Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I did it with my oddy without saucer separation, and I had no problem escaping; I wasn't even using the strategic maneuvering either.

    I got stopped from escaping by being too high in the reactor room when the core blew. Yeah... That is all it takes. I was in the Oddy with my saucer off. I could not go straight "down" thanks to Cryptic not allowing us to do so and I got momentarily stuck on rim of the exit door... :rolleyes: That was all it took.

    I will say it again: If you are not going to let us fly straight UP and straight DOWN then for the love of Q at LEAST do not EVER place ANYTHING of importance ABOVE or BELOW us... Make the plane we are artificially locked to the place were EVERYTHING happens.
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  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Yeah, Breach really is a Cruiser's Paradise.
  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    So... get mi Scymitar there is not a good idea?

    Actually the Scimitar is one of the better ideas since your turnrate is improved considerably while cloaked. I tried it several times with my Galaxy-X. Now THAT was a pain in the TRIBBLE. But once you know your way around in there its not a problem. In the core room you just have to take a good position for your escape run before the core is destroyed.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    So I just played the Breach in my Fleet Vo'Quv carrier...

    What an annoying experience.

    OK , allow me to try and give you three pointers :

    1) When making turns (especially sharp ones) , bring your speed to a half , and activate Evasive Maneuvers .
    This will grant you a quick sharp turn (just make sure you don't over do it) .

    2) Look the Conn Officer Doff on the exchange called Lariang .
    When you slot him in space , he gives you a reduction to your cooldown to Evasive Maneuvers .

    3) Consider replacing one of your Engineering consoles with an RCS console (of the highest caliber you can afford) on the Exchange .
    If you have access to a Tier 3 Dilithium Mine , it sells not only high caliber RCS consoles , but also defensive consoles that boost turn rate .

    Hope this helps . :)
  • smokeybacon90smokeybacon90 Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Beamboats make the first section an absolute breeze. However since there is no time limit, it doesn't really matter. I really think the elite version should be harder, and have time limits, as well as an optional objective for saving all the captured ships.
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  • saekiithsaekiith Member Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Mhm... don't you have Evasive Maneuvers and Ramming Speed?
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  • tequilla56tequilla56 Member Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Well ignoring the predominantly 3.5 pages of people who have not even attempted to come close to TRYING to stay on topic here....

    I agree. Yes it is a good mission. I enjoy it. But it DOES have bugs and need fixes. (similar to STF's Cure).

    Now it is easy to specify to people hey, u know what... Fly this.. Fly that... Etc. That is not the point. The Game needs to be specced so ALL can play. no matter what they choose to fly.

    I agree, A carrier is useless and un-useable in this mission. (have flown three, Caitian, Recluse and the obelisk) all with improved turn rates etc etc etc. Simply put. 5 mins in and they are just unplayable. ending in walls and crevices with locked camera angles making in impossible to see which way you are pointing in order to get out of them.

    Now before people state... well slow down before you turn. Sure.. No probs... EXCEPT the auto SPEED boost that randomly kicks at no particular moment making that a mute point unless you are good enough to have it, hit the brakes come to a complete stop and then CREEP along as slowly and carefully as you can.

    Fine, Its a good mission. Perfectly playable and good rewards. Very well done by the Dev's. But the point made here, its NOT all player friendly and that is very true and a shame. People should not have to jump through hoops, to play a mission, or completely re-spec their char or ship and officer assignments just to do one mission. (the vault and issues with putting toons in shuttles demonstrated the problems there).

    Do I even dare question what is going on with the voths 15-20k weapon ranges that kill you without hesitation before u have a chance of fireing on the target yourself. Nope, this mission is def built for players who have a specific type of ship. THAT makes it too restrictive in my book.
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Quick n' simple guide to making a voquv turn like a cruiser and fly at escort speeds

    1. A2d (doffed or not) - as you are running high aux, exploit the speed/turn bonus - the trick is to use it AFTER all other boosts as it increases the current maximum speed/turn -
    2. RCS - pretty obvious, equip as many rcs units as you can get away with
    3. emergency power to engines - dual eptx via dam control doffs for tank and speed
    4. Dueterium burn - it takes a while to build up stacks of them, but its worth it for a free evasive on demand
    5. engine battery - pop it for higher speed and base turn
    6. evasive manuevers
    7. Impulse capaticance cell - great for straight line charges, I use ths in Cure to get from one cube to another to run emergency heals and getting to the voth on storming the spires start

    and finally:

    8. 1/4 or half throttle - less speed equals a smaller turning circle - thus binding your throttle to, say, a mouse wheel can aid your voquv slingin' skills... oddly however, your turn at 1/4 impulse can have full defence -if- you buff your speed, thus maintaining full defence with a lower turning circle

    9. Full stop turn - rather than moving, pop a2d/epte/evasive while not moving to effect a high speed on the spot rotation - for a full 180 one needs to practice turning the camera at the right time to rotate further than the 90 degree you usually can, but in a pinch it can be rather effective


    ..as to the auto speed boost, it ought to be a 'press f to engage' ability - but to be honest, in a carrier, you ought to be orientating yourself for the exit before the core is dead - your pets and team should be enough dps to finish the job, let alone the 'pew' added by your ship despite being prepared to exit - then as soon as its time to leave, pop your boost skills to get out in time


    Beyond this, if breach is too difficult to carrier in..try the spire - thats pretty good to carrier in, as a decent carrier can guard two docking bays and is wide enough to not have any of the mentioned issues
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    burstorion wrote: »

    8. 1/4 or half throttle - less speed equals a smaller turning circle - thus binding your throttle to, say, a mouse wheel can aid your voquv slingin' skills... oddly however, your turn at 1/4 impulse can have full defence -if- you buff your speed, thus maintaining full defence with a lower turning circle

    9. Full stop turn - rather than moving, pop a2d/epte/evasive while not moving to effect a high speed on the spot rotation - for a full 180 one needs to practice turning the camera at the right time to rotate further than the 90 degree you usually can, but in a pinch it can be rather effective


    ..as to the auto speed boost, it ought to be a 'press f to engage' ability - but to be honest, in a carrier, you ought to be orientating yourself for the exit before the core is dead - your pets and team should be enough dps to finish the job, let alone the 'pew' added by your ship despite being prepared to exit - then as soon as its time to leave, pop your boost skills to get out in time


    Beyond this, if breach is too difficult to carrier in..try the spire - thats pretty good to carrier in, as a decent carrier can guard two docking bays and is wide enough to not have any of the mentioned issues

    sliding turn. full impulse, then drop to sub impulse and bring the carrier around on the spot while it is moving then kick it into full impulse again when you have more or less reached the direction you need.

    it takes roughly 25-35 seconds to get from the core to the breach and outside like most ships. carrier is not much different. it shouldn't be a problem getting out in time.
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  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    sliding turn. full impulse, then drop to sub impulse and bring the carrier around on the spot while it is moving then kick it into full impulse again when you have more or less reached the direction you need.

    it takes roughly 25-35 seconds to get from the core to the breach and outside like most ships. carrier is not much different. it shouldn't be a problem getting out in time.

    Ah, I knew I forgot something :eek:....but yeah, sliding turns using the carrier inertia is quite viable, abeit risky in the breach interior (I've seen a fair few carriers try that and miss the turn, so I tend to a2d/evasive/epte slide as its somewhat more controllable)

    Above all else, a carrier jockey ought to practice in a space map before flying in anywhere but wide spaces - more so the new players using their obelisks
  • murbzmurbz Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I flew this mission in my obelisk.

    It is true that i was often behind the escorts in my group. At one point i did have trouble getting through one of the tunnels and ended up almost an enemy group behind of my team.

    However i had the last laugh. I was the only one who made it out alive at the end and i don't think it is that hard to escape with a carrier as i think i had about 20 seconds safe time. I got to watch the rest of my team ALMOST make it out before the thing exploded, killing them all. Was somewhat amusing.

    I do have emergency power to engines (with high aux) and of course i made frequent use evasive maneuvers, but i have NO +turning equipment.

    My larger problem is that fighters seem near useless in this season due to basically every voth ship having multiple "ALL FIGHTS DIE NOW" abilities and newly introduced bugs (fighters sometimes don't launch at all when pushing the launch button, but i still get the cooldown).

    I also don't really agree that the first part of this mission favors cruisers much. You're basically making quick strikes on spread out, (mostly) defenseless targets. This screams escorts to me.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    murbz wrote: »
    I flew this mission in my obelisk.

    It is true that i was often behind the escorts in my group. At one point i did have trouble getting through one of the tunnels and ended up almost an enemy group behind of my team.

    However i had the last laugh. I was the only one who made it out alive at the end and i don't think it is that hard to escape with a carrier as i think i had about 20 seconds safe time. I got to watch the rest of my team ALMOST make it out before the thing exploded, killing them all. Was somewhat amusing.

    has a similar experience earlier in the day, was playing my alt and i was waiting after the core exploded. 30 seconds on the clock then i blasted out, the only one to survive with a second left on the clock. that was mildly entertaining when the others exploded.
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,005 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Personally I think I will switch to a mirror escort as well for this - for aesthetical reasons. Seeing a Galaxy Class ship fly through this structure, no matter how big it is supposed to be, just doesn't feel right. I really hate those new STFs, though I'd like to get the photon torpedo. So Flying through that with a frigate seems a bit more reasonable :D
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  • vocmcpvocmcp Member Posts: 1,134 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I think a lot of you are missing my point. It's got nothing to do with weapons or survivability.

    It's got everything to do with maneuverability. I'm used to having a big slow tank that measures turning radius in planets- That doesn't bother me. What bugs me is that it seems the devs didn't even try it in anything but a ship that can turn.

    I couldn't keep up with anybody, so I couldn't contribute. I might as well have been an AFKer. At least previous STFs are wide open so you can make those wide turns, and they're small enough that you don't have to use full impulse at every turn (literally).

    And the end is an automatic insta-kill if your ship is too slow. Insta-kills are stupid, not challenging.

    You cannot expect the same build to rock everything in the game. Put some fleet neutroniums /RCS consoles on that ship and you're good.
  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    On the exterior, don't forget to use the slipstreams - using those, even a slow ship can get around fairly fast

    Or... do the logical thing and instead of trying to get around the ship, instead focus on those integrity nodes - let the escorts pew the hardpoints whilst you tank n' spank the nodes
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I fly mostly destroyers and larger. I have done this mission with the following fleet ships and turn-rates

    Varanus (11)
    Tor'Kaht (10)
    Nebula (9)
    Support Cruiser (8)
    Assault Cruiser (7)
    D'Deridex (5.5)

    The D'D uses battlecloak and evasive to make sharp turns, the Suppor Cruiser uses 2x Aux-to-Damp and is slippery like a Ferret, but the Assault Cruiser has nothing except Evasive Manuevers and half-throttle turns but still gets around alright.

    I havent done it with an escort. I dont think they would perform as well in the areas where tanking is necessary.

    Not gonna say lrn2fly or anything but ... spend some time experimenting with the ship controls and try to think about where you will need to be after the current target so you can get into a favorable position early. This is all very doable with heavy ships.
  • ufpterrellufpterrell Member Posts: 736 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Really struggling to find a ship I'm happy with for this season. The Avenger is great for a frontal attack, but with all the swamers and various hard points dotted around I find that a cannon boat is just far too restricting. Thinking of ditching my Avenger and dusting off my Reagent and dishing out the pain :). Just wish the model for the Reagent looked as nice as the Avenger. They really ditched the poly count on that ship, and it shows the hull is so flat and the deflector looks awful :(.
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  • tenkaritenkari Member Posts: 2,906 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    ufpterrell wrote: »
    Really struggling to find a ship I'm happy with for this season. The Avenger is great for a frontal attack, but with all the swamers and various hard points dotted around I find that a cannon boat is just far too restricting. Thinking of ditching my Avenger and dusting off my Reagent and dishing out the pain :). Just wish the model for the Reagent looked as nice as the Avenger. They really ditched the poly count on that ship, and it shows the hull is so flat and the deflector looks awful :(.

    or do what i did. I turned my fleet Avenger from a cannon boat to a beam boat. I got 5 AP DBB up front, including a Voth one, and the chroniton one from the lobi store, and the other 3 are fleet advanced AP's, with the KCB and 360 AP beam from SoI and the third slot is an AP turret. it melts things pretty damn fast for a beam boat, and it's FAW's are just epic when most yoru targets are infront of you.... a DBB shooting at 5 different targets at the same time, just beautiful.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I've always had my Avenger as a BFAW broadsider + single torp. It works beautifully as one, and cannons just plain don't work as well on it as beams. Even with the Avenger's turn rate it's hard to keep a fast target in your firing arc if you're running DHCs. My Avenger, which is hardly specced for agility, versus a DHC-armed Avenger in PVP was no contest. I could hit him hard from any direction I wanted, whereas I don't think he ever even managed to hit me except if I crossed the T on him or turned head-on to dump a torp spread.

    At the hardpoint stage I just zip along the side lancing them with whichever gun battery happens to be pointed in the right direction (one blast from three beams = dead, even on elite), then dump a torp spread and switch to full broadside when I hit an integrity node.
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  • cassamirothcassamiroth Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I've done this mission mostly in cruisers and carriers. Decided not to bother after doing a run in my little Gurumba(too squishy and the constant power draining renders the Javelin beam largely irrelevent)

    My observations are that any carrier pets smaller than frigates are largely wasted(they pop from all the AoE effects), though the carriers themselves are fine. The mission is so long that you should get plenty of opportunity to use evasive maneuvers when you actually need it. I feel this mission is really suited to sciences and cruisers who can deal with all the debuffing reliably and reply in kind. Though the scimitar's Thalaron pulse has proved to be rediculously helpful in these confined spaces, like shooting fish in a barrel.

    Oh, and that end bit where you have to flee? There's a big green arrow on the map pointing the way out(to your objective), may or may not be helpful to check the mini map occasionally and save an evasive maneuver for the end of that fight.

    So in the end, naw, I wouldn't say the Breach is strictly for escorts. However, it does require an understanding of how your ship maneuvers(or a lot of RCS or +turn consoles) and a certain degree of power use discipline, there's been a few good suggestions on how to handle the turning thus far.
  • captainwexlercaptainwexler Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Iv'e done the mission about 10 times now. In a Fleet galaxy. I am yet to fail to escape, and keep up with the group easy enough. I dont have a single RCS equipped. If I can manage, you lot sure as hell can.

    Guys, seriously, stop ******** for five seconds and think.....Is it the mission? Or is it you?
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I fly mostly destroyers and larger. I have done this mission with the following fleet ships and turn-rates

    Varanus (11)
    Tor'Kaht (10)
    Nebula (9)
    Support Cruiser (8)
    Assault Cruiser (7)
    D'Deridex (5.5)

    The D'D uses battlecloak and evasive to make sharp turns, the Suppor Cruiser uses 2x Aux-to-Damp and is slippery like a Ferret, but the Assault Cruiser has nothing except Evasive Manuevers and half-throttle turns but still gets around alright.

    I havent done it with an escort. I dont think they would perform as well in the areas where tanking is necessary.

    Not gonna say lrn2fly or anything but ... spend some time experimenting with the ship controls and try to think about where you will need to be after the current target so you can get into a favorable position early. This is all very doable with heavy ships.
    Also.... if you get stuck in a corner.... USE REVERSE!

    Yes that right, ships have a reverse button....

    I actually needed it once when I bumped into the slip stream at the wrong angle... Face plant on the hull! I was trying to line up a shot around a hull structure, but oops.
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  • alienfrombeyondalienfrombeyond Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I got out with plenty of time to spare in my Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit, that's not much more maneuverable than a carrier is. Evasive Maneuvers is useful for more than avoiding attacks, it's an excellent mobility ability in general. USE IT.
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I made it out of there in an Obelisk - BEFORE ANYONE ELSE ON MY TEAM. It's not that hard once you know how to NOT turn into the wrong door while flying out of the hangar. Rammed into one of the sealed doors the Voth ships used to come out of back on Tribble just a bit too frequently.

    That said, the Obelisk's outright useless for anything involving the Voth. Let's see... what can kill non-frigate hangar pets?

    - Palisade photonic decoys

    - Warp core breaches, but that's pretty generic and unrelated to the Voth

    - Aceton drones blowing up

    - Bulwark using gravity wells, Tyken's rifts, reflective immunity matrices, or aceton mode

    - All of the above that the Citadel uses

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  • hasukurobihasukurobi Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    tequilla56 wrote: »
    Do I even dare question what is going on with the voths 15-20k weapon ranges that kill you without hesitation before u have a chance of fireing on the target yourself. Nope, this mission is def built for players who have a specific type of ship. THAT makes it too restrictive in my book.

    Really? I do not really doubt the long range but the Voth seem as scary as wet noodles to me. Besides the Dreadnaught with its Gravity Well I have not really noticed them hurting me all that much at all.


    However, this mission is also one of those missions which is not worth the effort. It takes too long compared to Spire and does not reward anything better. So unless you really WANT to be forced to run the rats race through that maze, get thrown around by currents, and often get blown up in the reactor room due to being unable to make it back out: Then it is not worth your time.
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    hasukurobi wrote: »
    Really? I do not really doubt the long range but the Voth seem as scary as wet noodles to me. Besides the Dreadnaught with its Gravity Well I have not really noticed them hurting me all that much at all.


    However, this mission is also one of those missions which is not worth the effort. It takes too long compared to Spire and does not reward anything better. So unless you really WANT to be forced to run the rats race through that maze, get thrown around by currents, and often get blown up in the reactor room due to being unable to make it back out: Then it is not worth your time.

    If only it were just the Dreadnought... :(

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  • hasukurobihasukurobi Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    starswordc wrote: »
    I've always had my Avenger as a BFAW broadsider + single torp. It works beautifully as one, and cannons just plain don't work as well on it as beams. Even with the Avenger's turn rate it's hard to keep a fast target in your firing arc if you're running DHCs. My Avenger, which is hardly specced for agility, versus a DHC-armed Avenger in PVP was no contest. I could hit him hard from any direction I wanted, whereas I don't think he ever even managed to hit me except if I crossed the T on him or turned head-on to dump a torp spread.

    At the hardpoint stage I just zip along the side lancing them with whichever gun battery happens to be pointed in the right direction (one blast from three beams = dead, even on elite), then dump a torp spread and switch to full broadside when I hit an integrity node.

    You basically point out the very reason why after a long hard look at the Avenger I decided against one... Its turn rate is alright but not that amazing as you point out. My Tactical Odyssey with my saucer off can run DBB's without a problem and keep everything in its arc while turning circles around the poor Avenger. It can also speed tank a bit like an Escort with far superior tanking stats LOL. So I am not stuck being a Broadsider (lolz) and still clean up everything in my path.


    Also is it just me or do the Voth have really weak ships? I mean their shields are decently strong and of course invincible on some facings when they use their ability but EWP III and a few other direct to hull attacks I have seem to melt them to death so fast it is almost unfair. I would think such big ships would have lots of hull but I guess they are mostly just open space?
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