Funny, the Voth are just there to destroy the Omega particles because they are too dangerous to let remain. So the FEDs are fighting the Voth for the rights to do the same thing. The real irony is that both will keep a few samples for research even though they will deny it, just like real countries do with WMDs, chemical weapons, deadly viruses, etc.
If the particles are dangerous as you want everyone to believe then accelerating their instability by blowing them up is the last thing you want to do.
Another point. Just because the sphere is producing stable omega particles doesn't mean what we are doing there won't suddenly make them unstable and go kaboom.
Again, better to dispose of them rather than do something catastrophic.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
See, this is the kind of thread I like. Ones with actual thinking people in it. I will concede there are blind spots in the logic I used back there, but I was working off of the total of evidence on its face value.
Funny, the Voth are just there to destroy the Omega particles because they are too dangerous to let remain. So the FEDs are fighting the Voth for the rights to do the same thing. The real irony is that both will keep a few samples for research even though they will deny it, just like real countries do with WMDs, chemical weapons, deadly viruses, etc.
We don't know why the Voth are there.
That's at the root of the entire problem. Cryptic just said, "lol, have a big adventure zone with ****ing dinosaurs" and didn't give two ****s whether anything involved actually made sense.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
See, this is the kind of thread I like. Ones with actual thinking people in it. I will concede there are blind spots in the logic I used back there, but I was working off of the total of evidence on its face value.
We don't know why the Voth are there.
That's at the root of the entire problem. Cryptic just said, "lol, have a big adventure zone with ****ing dinosaurs" and didn't give two ****s whether anything involved actually made sense.
Oh trust me, the Voth is something I am curious about, though and like you I am not satisfied with the Alliance's reason. There is something deeper going on there.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
We couldn't very well have the Voth running around with OMD's Now could we!!
Our analysts assure us that within a short time ... a year tops ... maybe ... (sound of someone tripping over microphone) ... alright maybe 3 months.... the Voth would have completed the final stages of Weapon Grade Omega! We haz to go in. We haz to!!
{cue sweet little girl hugging a puppy towards the camera}
"Alright Folks thats a wrap... well that went smoothly ... that should convince the dumb @#%#"
So the Voth, who predate all three factions by millions of years, are just getting around to harnessing the OP? Seems to me that the OP should be their main power source for their civilization. Maybe their there to make sure the toddlers aren't playing with dynamite.
So the Voth, who predate all three factions by millions of years, are just getting around to harnessing the OP? Seems to me that the OP should be their main power source for their civilization. Maybe their there to make sure the toddlers aren't playing with dynamite.
Remember though that their Doctrine restricts their society to the point of stagnation. Even though they're far older than the other powers, their own belief system keeps them from progressing at a steady pace. So even though their society might be millions of years older, their technology really isn't. More advanced than what we have, sure. But not millions of years more advanced.
I love all the people who throw out the word "imperialist" like it's such an evil thing, forgetting what imperialism did throughout history to bring order, peace, and stability to so many chaotic, war-ravaged, and blood-soaked countries.
Read history, people. Not just liberal, left-wing media history, but ACTUAL history books.
The OP is describing why I left my Fed main for the KDF. I always liked the Klingon ideas of individual honor, but the Federation was the Human faction, so I played as them.
When I watch Star Trek, the Federation is Utopian and a bit Orwellian, but they are all about finding a peaceful solution and holding up their ideals.
In STO, the Federation is all about shooting first and asking questions later. NOT the way the Federation was in the shows. I know there is a war on multiple fronts, but even during the darkest days of the Dominion war, the Federation held fast to its ideals.
At least the KDF isn't that much different. The Klingon Empire from the shows would never let anyone but a Klingon captain one of their ships (Raahlish just bought scavenged dominion ships off the black market, so they are not Imperial ships). They are still violent and aggressive, but otherwise, not that different from established canon.
To those believing this new "shoot-first" Federation STO has become, you are quite right. It is odd. But, I believe we may be forgetting one of the older story arcs in STO that was never resolved, the Undine. There is proof they have infiltrated our ranks, heck, our highest orders. And they are running the show. Our captains have tried to disobey orders concerning such violent actions but are forced to carry them out anyway by a glorified desk jockey. Say the Undine know of these particles, as does every Trek race. And remember, they are paranoid. Of everyone. It would make sense to order their "pets" to halt such a threat before it has a chance to soil whatever plans they have brewing. Thoughts on this?
To those believing this new "shoot-first" Federation STO has become, you are quite right. It is odd. But, I believe we may be forgetting one of the older story arcs in STO that was never resolved, the Undine. There is proof they have infiltrated our ranks, heck, our highest orders. And they are running the show. Our captains have tried to disobey orders concerning such violent actions but are forced to carry them out anyway by a glorified desk jockey. Say the Undine know of these particles, as does every Trek race. And remember, they are paranoid. Of everyone. It would make sense to order their "pets" to halt such a threat before it has a chance to soil whatever plans they have brewing. Thoughts on this?
Well, this AND the fact that the Federation has slowly been moving towards... I believe we can call it a resigned familiarity to meeting force with force, to those races who refuse to negotiate
It started with DS9 and the whole war, and there were signs of it with Voyager as well (the wormhole to Earth in "Endgame" had about 40 ships ready to greet it, at virtually minutes notice, for one thing)
So taking all this into account, and keeping it up with multiple wars for years up to STO's currently events, I have little trouble seeing the Federation as they are now.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Or the indians from India, or the Native Hawaiians.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Well, it's true. It seems everyone and their pet Tribble has been wanting a piece of us for the last few decades, so we had to update the recruitment posters somewhat. Join Starfleet, Travel the Galaxy, Make New Enemies. But that's okay. It's not the preferred way, but they'll all be drinking the Root Beer eventually. First the Ferengi, then the Klingons, then the Cardassians. The Romulans are coming along nicely, and Undine? You're up next!
Joking aside, a few things.
One, medical ships are protected, same as escape pods, as long as they limit themselves to the role befalling medical ships. If a medic strolls onto a battlefield with jumper cables to get the tank going again, he's gonna get shot. Repeatedly. To make a point.
Two, the Voth aren't exactly amenable to conversation. They show up. They open fire. Our installation in the sphere is under constant attack, and no offense: But it's kind of a big sphere. There's no way they're everywhere. So either there's something here that they really want that can't be found anywhere else in the sphere, or they're just asking for a swift kick in the cloaca. And in the mean, while we wait for them to call, we've got to dig in.
Three, the Voth desperation counts for nothing. The Omega Directive does not allow for the benefit of the doubt and good intentions. All it accounts for is the possibility of the end of civilization as we know it, across potentially the entire galaxy, if misused either deliberately or by accident.
Have you ever asked yourself, how did Starfleet find out about Omega? Why would an organization that at least from time to time tries to be openminded institute such a draconian policy? I'm thinking there's probably a patch of dead space somewhere inside a restricted volume of Federation territory, with a monitoring station sitting on its edge, that began its life listening for desperate pleas for help on sublight channels and is now waiting to see whether, when a number of freighters and research vessels inbound at high sublight speeds arrive in a few more decades, there'll be anyone left alive onboard. With some poor TRIBBLE in command who can't sleep and keeps stockpiling more and more emergency rations, cause it could happen to all of us.
I think you really don't quite grasp just how serious the Omega problem is.
I also think that since this sphere seems to be somehow linked to Iconians - who would probably be one of the few or the only race to not be affected by a complete subspace breakdown - the reason for Solanae producing Omega particles may be just that.
And as for Starfleet being the good guys... I suppose. That's a human idea, really. They seem to like being the good guys. Or pretending to be. Me, I'll pick the role of the pragmatist with the stick any day. (But I kind of enjoy using the stick, it's just... the enthusiast with the stick sounds so nefarious.)
Well, it's true. It seems everyone and their pet Tribble has been wanting a piece of us for the last few decades, so we had to update the recruitment posters somewhat. Join Starfleet, Travel the Galaxy, Make New Enemies. But that's okay. It's not the preferred way, but they'll all be drinking the Root Beer eventually. First the Ferengi, then the Klingons, then the Cardassians. The Romulans are coming along nicely, and Undine? You're up next!
...
Have you ever asked yourself, how did Starfleet find out about Omega? Why would an organization that at least from time to time tries to be openminded institute such a draconian policy? I'm thinking there's probably a patch of dead space somewhere inside a restricted volume of Federation territory, with a monitoring station sitting on its edge, that began its life listening for desperate pleas for help on sublight channels and is now waiting to see whether, when a number of freighters and research vessels inbound at high sublight speeds arrive in a few more decades, there'll be anyone left alive onboard. With some poor TRIBBLE in command who can't sleep and keeps stockpiling more and more emergency rations, cause it could happen to all of us.
...
I also think that since this sphere seems to be somehow linked to Iconians - who would probably be one of the few or the only race to not be affected by a complete subspace breakdown - the reason for Solanae producing Omega particles may be just that.
...
Thank you for making a variety of interesting points.
If I recall correctly, Starfleet found out about Omega due to research into it. The resulting "research" ended up causing the facility and everyone within to be completely vaporized and now there is a large patch of space wherein subspace and warp drive are all but unusable. Starfleet covered up the fact that it was due to this detonation and pretended it was a naturally occurring phenomenon. Note that this was with a very tiny number of particles that this happened.
Iconians being able to use it seems to be an interesting - and likely - phenomenon. In fact when you mention it, I imagine they may be able to repair or entirely bypass subspace, so an omega detonation isn't much more than an inconvenience for them.
Also, thank you for mentioning about medical ships getting shot - we do shoot the repair nodes for Borg mother ships, after all! - and noting that everyone wants a piece of the Federation. I think when people scream about "Starfleet should never shoot first," they forget that a century of this policy has led to much of the galaxy thinking we're a scrumptious tasty treat for their conquests... and the fact that they are, in fact, right.
If you don't want Star Fleet shooting "medical ships' then let the KDF or ROM players do the dirty work...We can't let the poor Feds taint their hands. oh no what would the Galaxy think :rolleyes:
Well, it's true. It seems everyone and their pet Tribble has been wanting a piece of us for the last few decades, so we had to update the recruitment posters somewhat. Join Starfleet, Travel the Galaxy, Make New Enemies. But that's okay. It's not the preferred way, but they'll all be drinking the Root Beer eventually. First the Ferengi, then the Klingons, then the Cardassians. The Romulans are coming along nicely, and Undine? You're up next!
Joking aside, a few things.
One, medical ships are protected, same as escape pods, as long as they limit themselves to the role befalling medical ships. If a medic strolls onto a battlefield with jumper cables to get the tank going again, he's gonna get shot. Repeatedly. To make a point.
Two, the Voth aren't exactly amenable to conversation. They show up. They open fire. Our installation in the sphere is under constant attack, and no offense: But it's kind of a big sphere. There's no way they're everywhere. So either there's something here that they really want that can't be found anywhere else in the sphere, or they're just asking for a swift kick in the cloaca. And in the mean, while we wait for them to call, we've got to dig in.
Three, the Voth desperation counts for nothing. The Omega Directive does not allow for the benefit of the doubt and good intentions. All it accounts for is the possibility of the end of civilization as we know it, across potentially the entire galaxy, if misused either deliberately or by accident.
Have you ever asked yourself, how did Starfleet find out about Omega? Why would an organization that at least from time to time tries to be openminded institute such a draconian policy? I'm thinking there's probably a patch of dead space somewhere inside a restricted volume of Federation territory, with a monitoring station sitting on its edge, that began its life listening for desperate pleas for help on sublight channels and is now waiting to see whether, when a number of freighters and research vessels inbound at high sublight speeds arrive in a few more decades, there'll be anyone left alive onboard. With some poor TRIBBLE in command who can't sleep and keeps stockpiling more and more emergency rations, cause it could happen to all of us.
I think you really don't quite grasp just how serious the Omega problem is.
I also think that since this sphere seems to be somehow linked to Iconians - who would probably be one of the few or the only race to not be affected by a complete subspace breakdown - the reason for Solanae producing Omega particles may be just that.
And as for Starfleet being the good guys... I suppose. That's a human idea, really. They seem to like being the good guys. Or pretending to be. Me, I'll pick the role of the pragmatist with the stick any day. (But I kind of enjoy using the stick, it's just... the enthusiast with the stick sounds so nefarious.)
THIS. So much this. People keep saying "Oh, well, the Voth are really old, so they probably know how to use Omega!", but they just don't get that assuming such puts anything that relies on subspace in jeopardy, from travel to computers to simple communication. If even a FEW molecules destabilize, entire sectors of space go dark. Yeah, sure, the stuff the Sphere is making seems to be stable. So did the ones in the episode we were introduced to Omega in, about thirty seconds before it reduced that general area of space to pre-warp levels for an unknown amount of time, possibly forever.
Actually I made this post a few pages ago, but if you lever played "Star Trek Legacy" it was actually James T Kirk who urged the creation of the Omega Directive. It was one of the last things he did before retirement.
Though I don't know how much of that game is cannon, but I just thought I'd throw that one out. Hell if Kirk thinks the Omega particle shouldn't be messed with, don't ya think we should listen to him?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I love all the people who throw out the word "imperialist" like it's such an evil thing, forgetting what imperialism did throughout history to bring order, peace, and stability to so many chaotic, war-ravaged, and blood-soaked countries.
Read history, people. Not just liberal, left-wing media history, but ACTUAL history books.
At best imperialism did good for the conquered as an inadvertent result of doing good for the conquerers.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Or the indians from India, or the Native Hawaiians.
or the ancient europeans as the Romans came their way. It is the oldest and saddest fact that all of mankinds history is written in blood. From the smallest tribe to the largest empire.
or the ancient europeans as the Romans came their way. It is the oldest and saddest fact that all of mankinds history is written in blood. From the smallest tribe to the largest empire.
Exactly the guy who said imperialism brought all this good stuff. Who says they wanted it in the first place? And like you said, imperialism is written in blood. It's never a nice thing.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Exactly the guy who said imperialism brought all this good stuff. Who says they wanted it in the first place? And like you said, imperialism is written in blood. It's never a nice thing.
It is what it is, the history of man back to its beginings is steeped in violence and history is written by the victor.
To say it was all bad is no more true than to say it was all good. It merely shaped the world we have today and as many souls who suffered just as many have reaped rewards they may have never enjoyed otherwise.
It is what it is and is only bad if we never learn from it, but it still exists even today in the posturing of the Governments of the world.
We have wars and we have rescue services, both often done by the same governments.
It's easy to TRIBBLE on something now that you can benefit and reap all the rewards you got from it.
The basis of contemporary postmodernism and moral equivalency though, right?
Often its a case of the various empires being not-nice, but the alternatives being horrific. British rule of North Africa vs the modern choice of military junta vs medieval theocracy. The Golden Age Of Piracy that flourished in the Caribbean after the various imperial navies largely withdrew in the late 17th Century. The huge number of places all over the world where people are killing each other for being the wrong tribe or sect or whatever, where it used to be one empire or another saying "you don't have to like each other, but if you start an active fight, we will END you.' I'm sure the people of Cambodia would have vastly preferred the French to the Khmer Rouge for example.
Comments
Another point. Just because the sphere is producing stable omega particles doesn't mean what we are doing there won't suddenly make them unstable and go kaboom.
Again, better to dispose of them rather than do something catastrophic.
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We don't know why the Voth are there.
That's at the root of the entire problem. Cryptic just said, "lol, have a big adventure zone with ****ing dinosaurs" and didn't give two ****s whether anything involved actually made sense.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I actually stopped to ask one, so I do know why they are there.
Oh trust me, the Voth is something I am curious about, though and like you I am not satisfied with the Alliance's reason. There is something deeper going on there.
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We couldn't very well have the Voth running around with OMD's Now could we!!
Our analysts assure us that within a short time ... a year tops ... maybe ... (sound of someone tripping over microphone) ... alright maybe 3 months.... the Voth would have completed the final stages of Weapon Grade Omega! We haz to go in. We haz to!!
{cue sweet little girl hugging a puppy towards the camera}
"Alright Folks thats a wrap... well that went smoothly ... that should convince the dumb @#%#"
{Awkward silence}
"Sir, we're still live"
"Bugger! #%#^@!"
Remember though that their Doctrine restricts their society to the point of stagnation. Even though they're far older than the other powers, their own belief system keeps them from progressing at a steady pace. So even though their society might be millions of years older, their technology really isn't. More advanced than what we have, sure. But not millions of years more advanced.
Mine Trap Supporter
Read history, people. Not just liberal, left-wing media history, but ACTUAL history books.
When I watch Star Trek, the Federation is Utopian and a bit Orwellian, but they are all about finding a peaceful solution and holding up their ideals.
In STO, the Federation is all about shooting first and asking questions later. NOT the way the Federation was in the shows. I know there is a war on multiple fronts, but even during the darkest days of the Dominion war, the Federation held fast to its ideals.
At least the KDF isn't that much different. The Klingon Empire from the shows would never let anyone but a Klingon captain one of their ships (Raahlish just bought scavenged dominion ships off the black market, so they are not Imperial ships). They are still violent and aggressive, but otherwise, not that different from established canon.
That's just my 2 EC on the matter.
KDF Tac: Bortasqu' Tactical
Fed Tac: Fleet Gal-X
Keep those big guns a-thunderin'
It started with DS9 and the whole war, and there were signs of it with Voyager as well (the wormhole to Earth in "Endgame" had about 40 ships ready to greet it, at virtually minutes notice, for one thing)
So taking all this into account, and keeping it up with multiple wars for years up to STO's currently events, I have little trouble seeing the Federation as they are now.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Or the Africans, for that matter.
Or the indians from India, or the Native Hawaiians.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
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Joking aside, a few things.
One, medical ships are protected, same as escape pods, as long as they limit themselves to the role befalling medical ships. If a medic strolls onto a battlefield with jumper cables to get the tank going again, he's gonna get shot. Repeatedly. To make a point.
Two, the Voth aren't exactly amenable to conversation. They show up. They open fire. Our installation in the sphere is under constant attack, and no offense: But it's kind of a big sphere. There's no way they're everywhere. So either there's something here that they really want that can't be found anywhere else in the sphere, or they're just asking for a swift kick in the cloaca. And in the mean, while we wait for them to call, we've got to dig in.
Three, the Voth desperation counts for nothing. The Omega Directive does not allow for the benefit of the doubt and good intentions. All it accounts for is the possibility of the end of civilization as we know it, across potentially the entire galaxy, if misused either deliberately or by accident.
Have you ever asked yourself, how did Starfleet find out about Omega? Why would an organization that at least from time to time tries to be openminded institute such a draconian policy? I'm thinking there's probably a patch of dead space somewhere inside a restricted volume of Federation territory, with a monitoring station sitting on its edge, that began its life listening for desperate pleas for help on sublight channels and is now waiting to see whether, when a number of freighters and research vessels inbound at high sublight speeds arrive in a few more decades, there'll be anyone left alive onboard. With some poor TRIBBLE in command who can't sleep and keeps stockpiling more and more emergency rations, cause it could happen to all of us.
I think you really don't quite grasp just how serious the Omega problem is.
I also think that since this sphere seems to be somehow linked to Iconians - who would probably be one of the few or the only race to not be affected by a complete subspace breakdown - the reason for Solanae producing Omega particles may be just that.
And as for Starfleet being the good guys... I suppose. That's a human idea, really. They seem to like being the good guys. Or pretending to be. Me, I'll pick the role of the pragmatist with the stick any day. (But I kind of enjoy using the stick, it's just... the enthusiast with the stick sounds so nefarious.)
Thank you for making a variety of interesting points.
If I recall correctly, Starfleet found out about Omega due to research into it. The resulting "research" ended up causing the facility and everyone within to be completely vaporized and now there is a large patch of space wherein subspace and warp drive are all but unusable. Starfleet covered up the fact that it was due to this detonation and pretended it was a naturally occurring phenomenon. Note that this was with a very tiny number of particles that this happened.
Iconians being able to use it seems to be an interesting - and likely - phenomenon. In fact when you mention it, I imagine they may be able to repair or entirely bypass subspace, so an omega detonation isn't much more than an inconvenience for them.
Also, thank you for mentioning about medical ships getting shot - we do shoot the repair nodes for Borg mother ships, after all! - and noting that everyone wants a piece of the Federation. I think when people scream about "Starfleet should never shoot first," they forget that a century of this policy has led to much of the galaxy thinking we're a scrumptious tasty treat for their conquests... and the fact that they are, in fact, right.
THIS. So much this. People keep saying "Oh, well, the Voth are really old, so they probably know how to use Omega!", but they just don't get that assuming such puts anything that relies on subspace in jeopardy, from travel to computers to simple communication. If even a FEW molecules destabilize, entire sectors of space go dark. Yeah, sure, the stuff the Sphere is making seems to be stable. So did the ones in the episode we were introduced to Omega in, about thirty seconds before it reduced that general area of space to pre-warp levels for an unknown amount of time, possibly forever.
Though I don't know how much of that game is cannon, but I just thought I'd throw that one out. Hell if Kirk thinks the Omega particle shouldn't be messed with, don't ya think we should listen to him?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
XERXES: The aqueduct?
REG: What?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
or the ancient europeans as the Romans came their way. It is the oldest and saddest fact that all of mankinds history is written in blood. From the smallest tribe to the largest empire.
R.I.P
Exactly the guy who said imperialism brought all this good stuff. Who says they wanted it in the first place? And like you said, imperialism is written in blood. It's never a nice thing.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
It is what it is, the history of man back to its beginings is steeped in violence and history is written by the victor.
To say it was all bad is no more true than to say it was all good. It merely shaped the world we have today and as many souls who suffered just as many have reaped rewards they may have never enjoyed otherwise.
It is what it is and is only bad if we never learn from it, but it still exists even today in the posturing of the Governments of the world.
We have wars and we have rescue services, both often done by the same governments.
R.I.P
The basis of contemporary postmodernism and moral equivalency though, right?
Often its a case of the various empires being not-nice, but the alternatives being horrific. British rule of North Africa vs the modern choice of military junta vs medieval theocracy. The Golden Age Of Piracy that flourished in the Caribbean after the various imperial navies largely withdrew in the late 17th Century. The huge number of places all over the world where people are killing each other for being the wrong tribe or sect or whatever, where it used to be one empire or another saying "you don't have to like each other, but if you start an active fight, we will END you.' I'm sure the people of Cambodia would have vastly preferred the French to the Khmer Rouge for example.