Oh, thighs looked badly wrong on most skirts before. They were perfectly fine on the nurse skirt / split skirt and the others could have been adjusted to match that, and everyone would have been happy.
Now in S8, the legs with skirts look more natural by default. However, this introduced a new bug where the waist is clipping. Do we freak out and revert? Only if the new bug is worse than the previous problem and/or is too difficult to fix. In this case, the seam is an easy fix, so we should keep the improved legs and fix the new bug.
Let me open by saying thank you for your continued discussion on this subject, it is very much appreciated.
I can't say I've seen the skirt clipping myself but I can imagine it would be quite the problem for players. I can live with the new model work, it's nice to have someone looking into the possibility of improving the old stuff, but could you look into how legs with a skirt in the "cute" stance don't reflect what you choose in the character creator please?
So far as I can see the legs in the creator look fine (some might say great) but what that produces on the game model is an acceptable thigh size but the calf is practically non-existent which fora Starfleet officer shouldn't really be possible what with all the running and stuff :P (it's also horrible disproportionate to the rest of the body with the slider settings shown here)
I don't know if it holds true for other stances (it seems "standard" doesn't suffer, or at least not as much) but if possible I don't want to change my character's stance as this is a considerable amount of work myself to brush up my character's form to suit her new stance
Again, thanks for the continued support, hopefully we'll all get this fixed soon
Oh, thighs looked badly wrong on most skirts before. They were perfectly fine on the nurse skirt / split skirt and the others could have been adjusted to match that, and everyone would have been happy.
Yeah, pretty much. I know I was amongst other posters suggesting this.
"Back on topic. Destinii is correct."
(Formerly Destinii until the 'Great PWE Forum Shakeup of 2012')
I'm sorry, crypticjoejing. As an artist, the desire to make things better must be tremendous. And a noble goal. But what's "better" is totally subjective, and apart from some specific complaints, it looks like most of us were relatively happy before.
Thanks for taking the time to communicate with us. It's a refreshing change from the total silence we've had from the character art team for 3+ years. This forum can be rough.
in a skirt the Thigh's are still too skinny even at maxium
what we had before was much better than this my new romulan looks like a anorexic model
a 2x4 can pass thru the gap and not touch any skin !!!!!!! Thats So WRONG
Thank god my main toons are saved
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
And while these look more similar I shouldn't be forced to change my character's look to suit a new pose just so she looks remotely Human (or Betazoid in her case)
I'm still not convinced that what you're seeing is not the result of camera angle and distance. If the character model used in the tailor is actually different from the one used outside the tailor, then that is a pretty serious bug. It is difficult for users to get the same camera position inside and outside of the tailor. Maybe, someone at Cryptic with better tools than us can actually test this.
I'm still not convinced that what you're seeing is not the result of camera angle and distance. If the character model used in the tailor is actually different from the one used outside the tailor, then that is a pretty serious bug. It is difficult for users to get the same camera position inside and outside of the tailor. Maybe, someone at Cryptic with better tools than us can actually test this.
I agree that it is difficult, I got as close as possible in the game as possible to the tailor zoom level while managing to keep entire character on the screen (as the tailor does). Heck I'm not sure if it is possible to achieve the exact same viewpoint and zoom level in both the game and the tailor.
Equally I'm not sure if it's a different model or just different scaling but looking at the pictures here there is definitely something different/not translating properly in the given stance so that might factor in as well...
EDIT: Did some additional playing and I think it's a scaling issue I have here, see pics below, I'm sure I'm seeing a difference between the results...
I agree that it is difficult, I got as close as possible in the game as possible to the tailor zoom level while managing to keep entire character on the screen (as the tailor does). Heck I'm not sure if it is possible to achieve the exact same viewpoint and zoom level in both the game and the tailor.
Equally I'm not sure if it's a different model or just different scaling but looking at the pictures here there is definitely something different/not translating properly in the given stance so that might factor in as well...
EDIT: Did some additional playing and I think it's a scaling issue I have here, see pics below, I'm sure I'm seeing a difference between the results...
Again I've done my best to match camera locations, is it just me or does the tailor go both higher and lower than the game?
I kind of see what you mean now. It is possible that the slider settings have different scales inside and outside of the tailor.
There is also something weird in those screenshots you took at maximum leg bulk from the right side. There is a bulge in the back of the thigh just above the knee. That was a problem seen in earlier Tribble builds with the "Feminine" and "Cute" stances. (It can only be seen with bent knees.) I thought they had fixed that problem though.
The current one is not perfect (expecialy the hip width that is going to be fixed) but the legs are much better NOW.
Lets wait that crypticjoejing gives us the fix, and then we decide if we want to go back to thouse horrible legs.
Sorry for bad english.
Thanks for that example, cerritourug!
Perfect answer for all the repeated questions about why we're "fixing something that isn't broken" - *that* is exactly what we were trying to improve. And we did. But there are many interconnected elements to do this and you guys are seeing some of the arguably mild side effects (that we will be addressing).
As always, your feedback helps us catch all of the negative side effects and we do watch the forums (again, even if the devs don't respond often - we're usually working ).
On the bright side, at least it was an unintentional bug instead of complete lack of caring like that sad excuse for a story justification in season 8.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I think the best solution to any of this is to have separate sliders for thigh/calf/waist, as what proportions are 'better' IS completely subjective.
This. Seriously. This.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
adamkafei, I had some other thoughts about whether the scales match inside and outside of the tailor.
1. Instead of "Leg Bulk", it might be better to test other sliders with more dramatic scaling effects, such as "Shoulder Width", "Torso Bulk", and "Stomach Size". That might make it more apparent if the scales don't match.
2. Would your character happen to be an alien? If the normal scale were used in place of the alien scale outside of the tailor, that would explain the differences you are seeing.
adamkafei, I had some other thoughts about whether the scales match inside and outside of the tailor.
1. Instead of "Leg Bulk", it might be better to test other sliders with more dramatic scaling effects, such as "Shoulder Width", "Torso Bulk", and "Stomach Size". That might make it more apparent if the scales don't match.
I'll have a play and post the results (referencing this post) later.
2. Would your character happen to be an alien? If the normal scale were used in place of the alien scale outside of the tailor, that would explain the differences you are seeing.
Nah, she's a Betazoid.
EDIT: As this is still the final post in the thread at this time I'll post the new pics here, I chose the shoulder width for now but I can add more upon request.
I think the best solution to any of this is to have separate sliders for thigh/calf/waist, as what proportions are 'better' IS completely subjective.
Definitely. I've been in at least three threads discussing the body issues over the past couple years and when I see it put simply like this I have to jump in and cheer it on.
I think the best solution to any of this is to have separate sliders for thigh/calf/waist, as what proportions are 'better' IS completely subjective.
considering STO uses the same engine as CO, and in CO you have these options, it likely is possible to do just that, since CO has those options.
also is pretty ridiculous that cryptic will be forced to roll back the legs, which are actually perfectly fine(really, is it that hard to lower a slider a bit, to get your character like it looked before)?
considering STO uses the same engine as CO, and in CO you have these options, it likely is possible to do just that, since CO has those options.
also is pretty ridiculous that cryptic will be forced to roll back the legs, which are actually perfectly fine(really, is it that hard to lower a slider a bit, to get your character like it looked before)?
I would tend to half-agree here.
While I absolutely abhor the idea of Cryptic changing my creations that I have spent countless hours on, these new shapes for legginess are exceptional.
Now, I also support others' desires for more OR less curvy-ness too, which brings the EXTENDED sliders in as a good premise.
What worries me rather is the destruction they wreaked on the facial textures *shudder*
also is pretty ridiculous that cryptic will be forced to roll back the legs, which are actually perfectly fine(really, is it that hard to lower a slider a bit, to get your character like it looked before)?
Lower the slider? I have had to almost MAX the slider and it STILL doesn't look the way it should!
you mean max it? the legs are a bit bigger now, if you max it, you make them larger than the previous max.
if you mean the lowest "maximum"(that would be the minimum), then wow, your character must have the famous stick legs then.
Maybe you should read through the thread and flick through some of the images I've posted in here, then you'll see what I mean and I'm currently about 1.5 bars off maximum at the moment.
Maybe you should read through the thread and flick through some of the images I've posted in here, then you'll see what I mean and I'm currently about 1.5 bars off maximum at the moment.
i did seen your screenies, your character legs gotten bigger due to the overall maximum being higher, all you need to do is lower it to return to how it was.
i did seen your screenies, your character legs gotten bigger due to the overall maximum being higher, all you need to do is lower it to return to how it was.
Sorry, last I checked the old calfs are far larger for the same settings than the new calfs... unless of course we're looking at different screenies...
My character has been unable to change her clothes for some days now- so I went to the tailor to make a new outfit to see if that fixed the problem. Which it didn't. Not only does the "wear" button not work, but formals wont stay in the formal section.
Then I discover something... worse... my toon is HIDEOUSLY fat.
I mean unplayably UGLY. Her facial features haven't changed but the doll itself is....
Suddenly its the same problem I have with chicks in Neverwinter: Tiny heads, crippled footbound feet, teeny hands, wide-load rumps and treestump legs. I cant fix the chicks in Neverwinter. So I don't play it.
The head on max size is still too small- so are the hands and feet compared to the rest of her "new" body. The legs are on min thickness. Her bust is on second notch and they're the size of her "IMPROVED" head. And her neck is the size of her thighs. AT MINIMUM!! >_<!
I had thought STO's models already leaned to tiny hands, head and feet- So I min-max'd my toons to compensate. But wow. This is just.... so much worse then before.
Even though I recently bought a bunch of costume slots I wont be filling them or making any new boffs until this gets fixed. That's very disappointing. The dollmaker keeps me playing this game. This.... model "update" makes me think about playing much much less.
Art Department: Please fix it. Or reverse it or give an option for the older model to be used, or SOMETHING!
You know I really hate being critical, but for the love of God, why is this stuff not more thoroughly tested before it's thrown onto the Holodeck?
Come on.
It isn't professional and it's driving people away. I won't be playing until these horrendous texture/model issues are fixed. I can understand little things getting by, but how in the hell did the facial textures and glitches in so many combinations of uniforms get through?
This is a class act every season that I'm growing tired of.
Sorry, last I checked the old calfs are far larger for the same settings than the new calfs... unless of course we're looking at different screenies...
calfs seem to be the same size to me, only difference is that your character no longer has that weird gap between the thighs, that most skirts used to give, and the hip is slightly wider.
It isn't professional and it's driving people away. I won't be playing until these horrendous texture/model issues are fixed. I can understand little things getting by, but how in the hell did the facial textures and glitches in so many combinations of uniforms get through?
It's a known issue and a fix for this is in the works, see CrypticJoeJing's first post in this thread, as for things slipping through testing, so long as Tribble performs differently to Holodeck (known fact) things will always slip by completely undetected, usually because they didn't exist on Tribble.
calfs seem to be the same size to me, only difference is that your character no longer has that weird gap between the thighs, that most skirts used to give, and the hip is slightly wider.
I'll go along with the gap being removed between the thighs but the lower legs in the new picture are like sticks, this isn't true of the old picture or even the new tailor picture, THAT is my problem.
Comments
Let me open by saying thank you for your continued discussion on this subject, it is very much appreciated.
I can't say I've seen the skirt clipping myself but I can imagine it would be quite the problem for players. I can live with the new model work, it's nice to have someone looking into the possibility of improving the old stuff, but could you look into how legs with a skirt in the "cute" stance don't reflect what you choose in the character creator please?
So far as I can see the legs in the creator look fine (some might say great) but what that produces on the game model is an acceptable thigh size but the calf is practically non-existent which fora Starfleet officer shouldn't really be possible what with all the running and stuff :P (it's also horrible disproportionate to the rest of the body with the slider settings shown here)
I don't know if it holds true for other stances (it seems "standard" doesn't suffer, or at least not as much) but if possible I don't want to change my character's stance as this is a considerable amount of work myself to brush up my character's form to suit her new stance
Again, thanks for the continued support, hopefully we'll all get this fixed soon
Yeah, pretty much. I know I was amongst other posters suggesting this.
"Back on topic. Destinii is correct."
(Formerly Destinii until the 'Great PWE Forum Shakeup of 2012')
Thanks for taking the time to communicate with us. It's a refreshing change from the total silence we've had from the character art team for 3+ years. This forum can be rough.
what we had before was much better than this my new romulan looks like a anorexic model
a 2x4 can pass thru the gap and not touch any skin !!!!!!! Thats So WRONG
Thank god my main toons are saved
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I'm still not convinced that what you're seeing is not the result of camera angle and distance. If the character model used in the tailor is actually different from the one used outside the tailor, then that is a pretty serious bug. It is difficult for users to get the same camera position inside and outside of the tailor. Maybe, someone at Cryptic with better tools than us can actually test this.
I agree that it is difficult, I got as close as possible in the game as possible to the tailor zoom level while managing to keep entire character on the screen (as the tailor does). Heck I'm not sure if it is possible to achieve the exact same viewpoint and zoom level in both the game and the tailor.
Equally I'm not sure if it's a different model or just different scaling but looking at the pictures here there is definitely something different/not translating properly in the given stance so that might factor in as well...
EDIT: Did some additional playing and I think it's a scaling issue I have here, see pics below, I'm sure I'm seeing a difference between the results...
Minimun
Maximum
Again I've done my best to match camera locations, is it just me or does the tailor go both higher and lower than the game?
I kind of see what you mean now. It is possible that the slider settings have different scales inside and outside of the tailor.
There is also something weird in those screenshots you took at maximum leg bulk from the right side. There is a bulge in the back of the thigh just above the knee. That was a problem seen in earlier Tribble builds with the "Feminine" and "Cute" stances. (It can only be seen with bent knees.) I thought they had fixed that problem though.
Thanks for that example, cerritourug!
Perfect answer for all the repeated questions about why we're "fixing something that isn't broken" - *that* is exactly what we were trying to improve. And we did. But there are many interconnected elements to do this and you guys are seeing some of the arguably mild side effects (that we will be addressing).
As always, your feedback helps us catch all of the negative side effects and we do watch the forums (again, even if the devs don't respond often - we're usually working
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
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"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
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1. Instead of "Leg Bulk", it might be better to test other sliders with more dramatic scaling effects, such as "Shoulder Width", "Torso Bulk", and "Stomach Size". That might make it more apparent if the scales don't match.
2. Would your character happen to be an alien? If the normal scale were used in place of the alien scale outside of the tailor, that would explain the differences you are seeing.
I'll have a play and post the results (referencing this post) later.
Nah, she's a Betazoid.
EDIT: As this is still the final post in the thread at this time I'll post the new pics here, I chose the shoulder width for now but I can add more upon request.
Maximum
Minimum with some proportion modifications to keep them more or less the same.
Though I'm not noticing much difference myself...
Definitely. I've been in at least three threads discussing the body issues over the past couple years and when I see it put simply like this I have to jump in and cheer it on.
~ Adrianne Grady
@agrady
Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.
considering STO uses the same engine as CO, and in CO you have these options, it likely is possible to do just that, since CO has those options.
also is pretty ridiculous that cryptic will be forced to roll back the legs, which are actually perfectly fine(really, is it that hard to lower a slider a bit, to get your character like it looked before)?
I would tend to half-agree here.
While I absolutely abhor the idea of Cryptic changing my creations that I have spent countless hours on, these new shapes for legginess are exceptional.
Now, I also support others' desires for more OR less curvy-ness too, which brings the EXTENDED sliders in as a good premise.
What worries me rather is the destruction they wreaked on the facial textures *shudder*
My thread http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=911931
Lower the slider? I have had to almost MAX the slider and it STILL doesn't look the way it should!
you mean max it? the legs are a bit bigger now, if you max it, you make them larger than the previous max.
if you mean the lowest "maximum"(that would be the minimum), then wow, your character must have the famous stick legs then.
Maybe you should read through the thread and flick through some of the images I've posted in here, then you'll see what I mean and I'm currently about 1.5 bars off maximum at the moment.
i did seen your screenies, your character legs gotten bigger due to the overall maximum being higher, all you need to do is lower it to return to how it was.
Sorry, last I checked the old calfs are far larger for the same settings than the new calfs... unless of course we're looking at different screenies...
Then I discover something... worse... my toon is HIDEOUSLY fat.
I mean unplayably UGLY. Her facial features haven't changed but the doll itself is....
Suddenly its the same problem I have with chicks in Neverwinter: Tiny heads, crippled footbound feet, teeny hands, wide-load rumps and treestump legs. I cant fix the chicks in Neverwinter. So I don't play it.
The head on max size is still too small- so are the hands and feet compared to the rest of her "new" body. The legs are on min thickness. Her bust is on second notch and they're the size of her "IMPROVED" head. And her neck is the size of her thighs. AT MINIMUM!! >_<!
I had thought STO's models already leaned to tiny hands, head and feet- So I min-max'd my toons to compensate. But wow. This is just.... so much worse then before.
Even though I recently bought a bunch of costume slots I wont be filling them or making any new boffs until this gets fixed. That's very disappointing. The dollmaker keeps me playing this game. This.... model "update" makes me think about playing much much less.
Art Department: Please fix it. Or reverse it or give an option for the older model to be used, or SOMETHING!
Please fix this: http://sdrv.ms/173cf3d
The midriff is cut in two.
You know I really hate being critical, but for the love of God, why is this stuff not more thoroughly tested before it's thrown onto the Holodeck?
Come on.
It isn't professional and it's driving people away. I won't be playing until these horrendous texture/model issues are fixed. I can understand little things getting by, but how in the hell did the facial textures and glitches in so many combinations of uniforms get through?
This is a class act every season that I'm growing tired of.
calfs seem to be the same size to me, only difference is that your character no longer has that weird gap between the thighs, that most skirts used to give, and the hip is slightly wider.
It's a known issue and a fix for this is in the works, see CrypticJoeJing's first post in this thread, as for things slipping through testing, so long as Tribble performs differently to Holodeck (known fact) things will always slip by completely undetected, usually because they didn't exist on Tribble.
I'll go along with the gap being removed between the thighs but the lower legs in the new picture are like sticks, this isn't true of the old picture or even the new tailor picture, THAT is my problem.
I don't know, I'm uploading all mine to skydrive and linking them here myself.
Is fix now on tribble, and is going to be fixed in tomorrow patch on holodeck.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com