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CRF is broken that make it supper BOSTED by 1100%
iskandus
Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
I have been gathering data and doing testing for about a month now because a while ago, we were noticing in Kerrat that some Klingons were one-shoting people using nothing but CRF, with or without BO. Some of the CRF were spiking as high as 12K per shot. Do the math, 4 DHCs upfront with 4 X 12K, add some turrets in the rear, they easily spike astronomically, without any crit. That last part is really sad, these are numbers from shots that didn't even crit. Not sure if the said players may have been hacking or something, I decide to see if I can replicate the results myself. Since my only Tact is a Fed, not Romulan, I know any results I get will be underestimating the actual potential of any Romulan Tactical but it would be a good proxy regardless. So I bought a Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer from the Exchange to give my Fed the ability to do decloak alpha, mimicking a Romulan. The result is shocking to say the least. So 4 Mk XII Tactical consoles (purple), with APO 1 or 3, APA III, Tactical Fleet, CRF 2 or 3, the tooltip shows each DHC doing about 6600 of damage per shot. :eek: At first, I thought maybe there was a bug with energy type because we noticed the Klinks doing them in Kerrat were curiously using Phaser - quite unusual for Klinks. But testing using Phaser and other Energy types show no unusual difference.
Here are some of the base facts :
- The base damage of each DHC with 4 X Tactical Mk XII purple console at Weapon Power of 50 = +/- 800
- The base damage of each DHC with 4 X Tactical Mk XII purple console at Weapon Power of 125 = +/- 1800
Now, let's estimate what kind of damage a Tactical Scimitar by a Romulan tactical captain can do with 5 Antiproton Mag Consoles Mk XII purple : 4 DHC forward + 1 DBB + 3 Turrets rears Tactical Commander station is used as follows : TT I, BO II, APO I, CRF III, assume Marion is used in conjunction with DEM
Each DHC does approximately 7000 damage. 7000 X 4 = 28000
The DBB does one BO II for approximately 30000 of damage
Each of the Turret does 1350 damage every 0.5 sec under CRF III, double for 2700 damage per sec X 3 = 8100
28000 + 30000 + 8100 = 66K of damage
Now, let's factoring in CtrD and CtrH
Total Critical Hit Chance is approximately 22% for Energy Weapons
Critical Severity = 150% for DHC, 140% for everything else
(0.22 X 150% X 28K/66K + 0.22 X 140% X 38K/66K) X 66 K = 21K of additional damage on average
66K + 21K = 87K of spike damage everytime this ship does a decloaked alpha within the first second, and continue to do another 35K of DPS for the next 7 sec for the duration of DEM + Marion. So the total damage is well over 330K+ during the 8 sec. decloaked alpha. In reality, no target can survive more than 2 sec of this decloaked alpha : 87K + 35 K = 122K of damage delivered within first 2 sec, all to the same shield facing. Note, TT is totally useless against such major spike.
If anyone wants to make this decloaked alpha even more deadly, they could add a Prototype Romulan Engine MK XII for a + 26 to Attack Patterns, boosting both APO and APA. Add 3 Maintenance Engineers who will each give stackable 10% damage upon activation of Weapons Battery. Use EptW to boost Energy damage further. You can exceed even the above calculated number to over 100K within the first sec though not sure what's the relevance because all targets will die within 2 seconds anyway.
So what's the culpit(s) causing such massive spike? I isolated each of the boosting factor above such as Weapons power level, console used, APA, APO, TF, doffs, equipment (e.g. Romulan Prototype engines), other damage boosting boff abilities and found that there are two factors that are causing abnormal level of boost to CRF. They are :
- APA III
- Tactical Fleet III
Contrary to rumors, APO in fact didn't have any abnormal impact on CRF, not anymore beyond their stated % boost to the base damage.
APA and TF however, are supposed to each add 30% of damage. They did anything but 30%. The two abilities appear to have a multiplicative effect, pretty much triple the base damage each.
Same awkward effect is observed on Feedback Pulse as well. For example, a FBP III with Particle Generator skill = 144 and Aux = 130 will have a deflecting factor of 0.90 Activating APA, the deflecting factor will be boosted to 1.3 Using both APA and TF, the deflecting factor goes up to 1.60 Meanwhile, if I were to give the ship 4 X PG MK XII Embassy Consoles, boosting the PG to over 271, it will merely boost its deflecting factor to 1.10 without APA or TF. In other words, APA is two times more powerful than adding 125 to Particle Generator skills.
Conclusion : CRF is seriously broken by bugged APA and TF, and possibly with GDF as well. The result is Escorts can continue to fly around one shot people easily despite the double tap nerf. If the excessive spike in this game has to be fixed, it will have to start by fixing these bugs first, then half of the battle would be won already.
Here are some of the base facts :
- The base damage of each DHC with 4 X Tactical Mk XII purple console at Weapon Power of 50 = +/- 800
- The base damage of each DHC with 4 X Tactical Mk XII purple console at Weapon Power of 125 = +/- 1800
Now, let's estimate what kind of damage a Tactical Scimitar by a Romulan tactical captain can do with 5 Antiproton Mag Consoles Mk XII purple : 4 DHC forward + 1 DBB + 3 Turrets rears Tactical Commander station is used as follows : TT I, BO II, APO I, CRF III, assume Marion is used in conjunction with DEM
Each DHC does approximately 7000 damage. 7000 X 4 = 28000
The DBB does one BO II for approximately 30000 of damage
Each of the Turret does 1350 damage every 0.5 sec under CRF III, double for 2700 damage per sec X 3 = 8100
28000 + 30000 + 8100 = 66K of damage
Now, let's factoring in CtrD and CtrH
Total Critical Hit Chance is approximately 22% for Energy Weapons
Critical Severity = 150% for DHC, 140% for everything else
(0.22 X 150% X 28K/66K + 0.22 X 140% X 38K/66K) X 66 K = 21K of additional damage on average
66K + 21K = 87K of spike damage everytime this ship does a decloaked alpha within the first second, and continue to do another 35K of DPS for the next 7 sec for the duration of DEM + Marion. So the total damage is well over 330K+ during the 8 sec. decloaked alpha. In reality, no target can survive more than 2 sec of this decloaked alpha : 87K + 35 K = 122K of damage delivered within first 2 sec, all to the same shield facing. Note, TT is totally useless against such major spike.
If anyone wants to make this decloaked alpha even more deadly, they could add a Prototype Romulan Engine MK XII for a + 26 to Attack Patterns, boosting both APO and APA. Add 3 Maintenance Engineers who will each give stackable 10% damage upon activation of Weapons Battery. Use EptW to boost Energy damage further. You can exceed even the above calculated number to over 100K within the first sec though not sure what's the relevance because all targets will die within 2 seconds anyway.
So what's the culpit(s) causing such massive spike? I isolated each of the boosting factor above such as Weapons power level, console used, APA, APO, TF, doffs, equipment (e.g. Romulan Prototype engines), other damage boosting boff abilities and found that there are two factors that are causing abnormal level of boost to CRF. They are :
- APA III
- Tactical Fleet III
Contrary to rumors, APO in fact didn't have any abnormal impact on CRF, not anymore beyond their stated % boost to the base damage.
APA and TF however, are supposed to each add 30% of damage. They did anything but 30%. The two abilities appear to have a multiplicative effect, pretty much triple the base damage each.
Same awkward effect is observed on Feedback Pulse as well. For example, a FBP III with Particle Generator skill = 144 and Aux = 130 will have a deflecting factor of 0.90 Activating APA, the deflecting factor will be boosted to 1.3 Using both APA and TF, the deflecting factor goes up to 1.60 Meanwhile, if I were to give the ship 4 X PG MK XII Embassy Consoles, boosting the PG to over 271, it will merely boost its deflecting factor to 1.10 without APA or TF. In other words, APA is two times more powerful than adding 125 to Particle Generator skills.
Conclusion : CRF is seriously broken by bugged APA and TF, and possibly with GDF as well. The result is Escorts can continue to fly around one shot people easily despite the double tap nerf. If the excessive spike in this game has to be fixed, it will have to start by fixing these bugs first, then half of the battle would be won already.
Post edited by iskandus on
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The thing I am taking away from this is that maintenance doffs can add up to 30% damage with weapon batteries...how the hell didn't I know about this?????!!!!!!
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
STOwiki says that CRF3's ~50% base damage (so it's like a 50% Tac Console). With Phased Polaron Cannons (only weapon I looked at, I'm tested out from the other stuff)...it's ~40%.
So one might say that it is bugged and needs to be fixed...course, that would mean a buff to it.
edit: And oh yeah, you can easily hit 15k+ DPV with DHCs...without debuffs.
But yea, this behavior is mostly just another bit of STO's issues with stacking buffs. 5 sci's drop sensor scan and you'd see similarly dumb numbers, its just slightly bizarre that tacs can do something like this all by their lonesome.
Also, I've seen people live though that kind of dps before, especially that new cruiser with its ability to further harden shields. ES TSS and that buff plus fleet gear and your flogging some escort with a wet noodle. A target surprised and alone is the preferable way to burn all your attack buffs.
1800 base for dhc is extremely low.... mine are just under 2200...
12k for a DHC crit again... that is S5 Numbers.... I have seen 20k Cannon crits so the guy shooting at you is doing it wrong.
Working as intended... honestly 4 and even 5 dhc are sort of a fail build right now... cause 9 out of 10 people will not go down to that attack.
Its ok don't feel bad if you do... getting caught with your pants down it happens.
Is not broken, is not an instant shot like BO, u can't one-shot people, and u have plenty of time for react.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
seriously, if you do 12+k with RF and cannons you either use CrtDx3 weapons and lose out on ALOT of accuracy, or you are simply too squishy. Or the attacked had a really nice GDF, an ability that got nerfed with LoR.
Get some neuts on and shield res. free2play whiners.
my parser has shown maxhits of 22000 on CSV1 shots. Thats pretty dang high for the "lower damage" special
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Sure makes nws a joke though..
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
I'm also a little puzzled about the APA calculations. Was the crit boost calculated for, or were you going off parses or tooltips?
I also think that Tac Team actually works to defend you. After the resist and defense factored in, it actually has time to redistribute.
Finally, did you consider if the 2 abilities might be stacking off each other instead of each being applied to base? Could be worth checking.
^^ This!
I've survived a lot of rather "creative" alpha-ganking attempts, including the dreaded double-tap. The key is to LISTEN...it's very hard to buff silently in this game, with the EPtW sound being the "loudest" IMO. Pay attention, keep you fingers on the RSP, EM, PH, SFM and ET (or HE) buttons, and try to react as quickly as possible.
Note: Rapidly turning *towards* your attacker is better than trying to run. If you do it right, you'll end up outside their firing arc and the secondary attack will miss or do minimal damage.
Live and learn...learn and live...or die.
RCK
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
That Iskandus is reaching for a nerf to Cannons, CRF or ApA? That was my take on it.
R.I.P
So what's the point then? Feels like too much effort for a troll.....
Good gankers will learn to elude the enemy and make them proc their most important abilities first. Good gankers have probably also learned to buff outside the 10km range and evasive to the target silently.
Dont resist the gank.
Maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
Still it does highlight how tactical buffs are stacking in what may be an unintended way which has certainly caused balance issues in the past.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Yep.. The issue is apa is buffing the modified damage after tt is applied or vice versa, giving the exponential damage increase.
That's what needs fixed. It should modify base damage just like every other mechanic.
On a serious note, nerf subnuc instead.
No! Don't take away his giant electric "love gun!"
RCK
^this, just this
But I concur with the quoted text above.
No! No nerfing MINORS!
Might be mistaken for child abuse...
RCK
we need a whole thread to be started to nerf that jerk. i mean what a TRIBBLE that guy is.. wait /checks @handle ... nvm, nothing to see here.... :P
Tell that to Emoe and Parem after I double insta-popped them following a failed attempt to kill me with the former's "unstoppable electric love gun."
It was...glorious!
RCK