If science ships are not meant for combat then someone at cryptic screwed up and put them in the game and included weapon slots on them. Does Science join an ESTF to observe the borg mating ritual? No? So I suppose Science ships are for combat in STO, they just suck at it.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Except that this game is only Star Trek in name. If Jaques Cousteau lived in the world of STO, he'd have refit the Calypso with armor piercing quad harpoon launchers and dual heavy refracting flare guns that have a 2.5% chance to blind the enemy.
I literally LOL because it is so true.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Jacques Cousteau probably didn't have to deal with Nausicaan Pirates, or Klingon Raiders off the starboard bow as he was studying a stellar formation or observing strange particles coming out of a black hole. I think a Science Ship is like every other Federation ship, it can be used in warfare, and oh by the way it has a particular purpose. I'm not sure I buy the idea that they can't function in any other manner. If that were the case, what on earth was the Voyager? I think the big difference between Science and Cruiser vessels at least in the show, is that Science vessels major in studying scientific phenomenon and the Cruisers while studying those things focus more on social interaction: The discovering of strange new worlds and making first contacts, and telling those people how great the Federation is.
That being said there's also the issue that this is a game, not real life. There's also the fact that you kind of want there to be some semblance of gameplay balance in a video game / mmo.
There is no need to change Sci ships (or cruisers, for that matter). The problem is that with the post-F2P changes the only character/BOFF/DOFF class that moved along the game content were tacs. Scis simply need DPS-centric powers. They need to make GWa killer. GW on the target and it starts looking like killed Romulan ships - sucked in. They need TR to shut down thing for sure - TR3 on full aux and the target is dead fish in the water - not shields, armor fused, power lost, no defence - only raw hitpoints to chew through: something even 3/3 beamer like sci-ship will do in a second.
Sci does not need better or more ships. It just need science to use. And it has none.
Dunno why Cryptic does not want to earn money onengs and scis and is monetizing only tacs. One would think that earining money on three different things is better then on one but meh.
Gravity Well should be a much larger effect. Like the size of a Borg Cube, large enough that a Unimatrix Command Ship starts to be pulled into it. Perhaps scaling in size with the level. I mean we're generating a gravity well, it should be one order of magnitude less than detonating a kilogram of Red Matter next to your opponent.
On that subject perhaps an Event Horizon type trap move. I mean it was terrible for science but it was a cool episode of Voyager regardless.
Tyken's Rift should be something on a five minute cooldown...because it's so devastating. I mean Tyken's Rift completely immobilized the Big E and drove the crew nuts, so it should immobilize the ship, drain power levels to almost nil, and TRIBBLE with Boff powers, probably through increasing cooldowns.
A very long time ago, I suggested a very Science-y mechanic based on the idea that Science vessels should be better at sensor analysis, signal processing, and electronic warfare than anything else in space.
Give Science the ability to gather "intel" on opposing ships, as well as the ability to mask and/or alter the same kinds of information about their own ship.
That's the basic idea in a shell, but obviously we need to put something more inside it.
What kinds of intel would be useful?
Well, how about being able to identify other ships at a greater perception range than any other ship for one thing? Not terribly useful for PvE, but potentially very useful for PvP.
What about a snapshot of another ship's capabilities? What weapons loadout do they have? What powers does the ship have access to? If you had access to that kind of information, you might change your approach to a combat situation.
What about being able to make your ship look weaker or more powerful than it really is?
It would give Science a strategic place in team play and help to counteract the weaknesses of science ships and abilities in general.
Having said that, I can't imagine the Devs actually implementing anything like that. I CAN imagine a very vocal contingent of PvPers protesting it.
More thoughts, if you care to keep reading them...
What about a 'progressive' intel score that increments by so much every time an offensive science ability is used? It could represent the science officers learning more about the enemy vessel each time they're affected by a science power. As the score increases, you can learn more about the enemy vessel by doing a "mouseover" or something. The counter could be science team decreasing or even wiping out the intel score.
Even if we discount the idea of implementing an electronic warfare system, the notion that science abilities get more effective the more you use them on a given target could be applied to other things. You could have Science reliably doing useful things that aren't directly related to damage. Sensor analysis has a similar effect and perhaps that could be leveraged to do more than it does to boost science skills in addition to its other effects.
Love all of this. There isn't a lot of scanning. The truth is all ships should have the ability to target a subsystem it was standard practice. You can't tell me Kruge was a sci captain. Science vessels should be able to target them more effectively and specifically. A branching targeting solution would be nice. Like in Darmok where the Enterprise couldn't directly target the tractor beam emitters on Dathon's ship, but they could target the power relays leading to it.
Science should also be able to detect environmental hazards, such a planetary magnetic field that increases stealth.
Great ideas, and I think they would work, but how can you guarantee us that they'll be viable if Cryptic introduced an electronic warfare skill? Biggest problem with sci is either you go heavy into grav and aux or drain build or shield tank/torp boat. If E warfare is introduced, it would have to be strong enough on its own to justify giving up points in those key science areas. And Cryptic doesn't know how to properly balance skills-either sci abilities are too strong, prompting whining and nerfs or they're too weak, prompting whining and buffs that have yet to see thr light of day.
Also, there is a tactical heavy status quo and most of the people playing this game have invested heavily into tac characters and tac ships. I doubt that PWE would want to risk pissing off the tac veterans of this game and risk turning Holodeck into a ghost town. If this mechanic is ever introduced, it will benefit tacs as much as sci captains. That's how PWE rolls now.
I think that's a major issue in itself. The idea that you have to fully spec into something like gravimetrics so your gravity well will be effective is bad. A science ship should be able to use multiple venues.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I think it could help to have proc-rate scale with Aux, have Sci Vessels give a bonus to proc-rate, have Sci consoles that raise the proc-rate for a particular energy type, or a combination of all three. I envision Science Vessels as having a support role first and foremost (heal, control, debuff, etc) and thus that would reinforce this purpose and give them their own role without affecting how Escorts and Cruisers play.
And just for the record I count Sci Carriers as Sci Vessels.
If you're talking about science vessels then Jacques Cousteau is the WRONG comparison to make.
This is a Starfleet Vessel and as Jonathan Archer found out, a starship with no weapons is a target out in space away from home. So you don't need to look at the Calypso, you need to look at Voyager, which had 13 phaser arrays and 5 torpedo tubes. Or the Nova class like Equinox which had 11 phasers and 2 torpedo tubes (and frankly should be a bit further along on the science ship chain than Olympic, Oberth, and Nebula really it's a much newer ship, albeit far lighter than the last).
All Starfleet vessels have to be able to defend themselves effectively.
I think it could help to have proc-rate scale with Aux, have Sci Vessels give a bonus to proc-rate, have Sci consoles that raise the proc-rate for a particular energy type, or a combination of all three. I envision Science Vessels as having a support role first and foremost (heal, control, debuff, etc) and thus that would reinforce this purpose and give them their own role without affecting how Escorts and Cruisers play.
And just for the record I count Sci Carriers as Sci Vessels.
I like this it's a good thought, increased proc rate would certainly make them more effective (sudden;y you see science ships everywhere with anti-proton and disruptor weapons), but I think it shows an interesting perspective.
In a way, Science ships in this game are ALL about secondary effects. Think about, Sci ships CC and debuff abilities are secondary effects made their primary form of attack. However they get about as much respect in practice as a secondary effect would get. There's only one true feared science ability and that is Subnucleonic Beam which mandates carrying sci team which most people don't due to the conflict with tac team. Most of the others have multiple ways to be dealt with. Tractor beam and Gravity well can all be escaped from via emergency to engines, Pattern Omega, and evasive maneuvers. Tractor beam is also countered by polarize hull and tractor beam repulsors. Tyken's Rift? I drop a Tyken's Rift and watch everyone fly through it with utter impunity, the only time it takes any effect is if someone else has dropped a gravity well of some power, and they can't escape it yet, or if my own gravity well has aftershocked.
As opposed to that utilized by your average borg sphere, the player tachyon beam is just completely ignored, I replaced it with Photonic officer which while nice, considering the reset, is practically only useful for an alpha strike, which sci vessels are woefully underequipped to execute. I said practically, the truth being an alpha should only last one power cycle anyway. But there's little chance even an intermediate sci player can take out a meaningful enemy before it wears off.
I don't like the vision of a science vessel being first and foremost a healing and CC vessel right now as those roles have little place in this game. The fact is that "in a galaxy, where the only thing that counts is how quickly you can kill your opponents" (Don LaFontaine we still love you), Science vessels can't kill efficiently and move on. Furthermore healing still seems weird to me when we're talking about ship to ship in combat repairs.
The style of it should be different I agree, science vessels shouldn't be trying to pound their enemies into submission, they should be bypassing their defenses. Analysis and scanning should be trying to lock down an opponent's shield modulation (something that should play more of a role in the ship side of this game) and then just fire through their shields directly to the hull (imagine the sci torpedo builds then). Cruisers should be able to mitigate some of the damage from such an attack by durability, while escorts can do that speed tanking thing they do, but if we're truly talking about a vessel that specializes in asymmetrical indirect warfare, then it needs to hurt.
Science vessels are not going to be the damage kings through their weapons and attack patterns and keeping 125 to weapons like escorts and cruisers and Warbirds especially. So if we can shoot through someone's defenses....then we have to go around them. It's inexcusable that any vessel in this day and age can't be made effective even with different playstyles. Min Maxing has to have a drawback. It shouldn't be an issue of you get killed by a science vessel they need to be nerfed- no, you got killed by a science vessel because you have foregone adequate defense against them in order to have more killing power, that is fair.
A science vessel should not be a white mage with some red mage powers, it should be a black mage with some white mage powers.
Science vessels should also be able to utilize environmental hazards though I understand that could be difficult in the game engine. For instance, in the stage in the Breen Front where you're fighting in the tail of a comet, gravity well or tractor beam should not only immobilize the target, but should pull in chunks of the comet to collide with the enemy in the same way as chunks of the crystalline entity. Or in the missions in the Badlands, you should be able to paint the opponent with an electron beam that ionizes their hull and gets one of the plasma streams to hit them.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Every ship class has it's own offensive advantage.
Escorts get DHCs, we know how well that works.
Cruisers get +1 weapon slot, thanks to overcapping FAW that now works.
Science Vessels get Sensor Analysis at the cost of a weapon slot. It is not that good.
Make sensor analysis a buff to self that builds up like singularity charge. That would solve 9/10ths of the problem. If that isn't enough you could add extra binnies to the sensor analysis buff such as +5 particle generator skill per stack. This could be achieved with the secondary deflectors.
2) The Extra Deflector. This idea would mean stronger magnitude Science abilities of a type, or allow Science Ships to spread out the magnitude of their abilities,
The big problem with this solution is that most science captain skills have very little impact on the effectiveness of the abilities they govern. Try testing a gravity well with and without a full rack of graviton generator consoles and see how much difference it makes. The answer (if your captain already has a few points in graviton generators) is no discernible difference btw.
Make the science boff abilities as powerful as their tactical and engineering counterparts and that would about do it.
This is the best solution. Science ships possess their weaknesses to offset the incredible power of SCIENCE that they alone can wield in shear quantity. Unfortunately right now the incredible thing about science powers is that they are not powerful.
Of course these days every other ship seams to have lieutenant commander universal boff slots so maybe just buffing science powers isn't enough to bring science ships into line.
If that is determined to be the case then my preferred buff to science ships would be to scrap subsystem targeting and sensor analysis and instead have a 20% reduction in the global cool down of science abilities (not the individual cool downs).
the global cool downs on many engineering and tactical abilities impose a 5 second unbuffed period between uses. But many science abilities when doubled up still suffer from much longer periods of dis-use. By reducing the global cool down on these abilities we must still double up abilities, but the benefit from doing so is much greater.
Also given that every one and their mother has some sort of tractor beam immunity it would be nice to start a 2nd one before the 1st one ends. Just to give us some chance of catching some one at some point.
I like the ideas of subsystem targeting and sensor analysis. It's the weak implementation that bugs me.
Tier 5 science vessels still only get T1 subsystem targeting? Really?
They might be better off with a variant of the Comm Array system that some cruisers are getting.
Call it Sensor Array. Instead of the separate subsystem targeting powers, make them toggles that have a (low) chance to proc every beam attack depending on which toggle is active and roll in the effects of Sensor Analysis to debuff damage resistance over time (that target lock is maintained). Add another mode that makes enemy Sensor Arrays less effective (increased defense, decreased proc, whatever). Allow allied ships within a certain range to benefit from the effect and don't let the toggles stack.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Lots of great ideas here in the forum. Personally, I don't even fly a science ship anymore, using a Mobius and a Kar'Fi currently. I might open my Wells to give it a spin and test out sensor analysis. Here are some of my thoughts on ideas - not necessarily a request to implement them all, but a list of potentials things to add
Sensor Analysis
With the addition of all the passive placates, this ability has been seriously hurt. Suggestions:
Make the intensity modified with Aux power. Current intensity would equal 75 aux, and double the intensity at 125 aux. Another option would be to decrease the stack time - 6 seconds at 75 aux, 3 seconds at 125 aux.
Make the debuff usable by your side, not just the player (I assume it only applies to the player, STO wiki is fuzzy there). This would make Sci ships boost the damage of the whole team and/or any pets they might have, including photonic fleet.
Optionally, have it reduce the target's resistance to science abilties - each stack reduces Power Insulators, Inertial Dampers and Sensors by 5 - so a full stack is -50.
Of course, some balancing might be necessary, perhaps not letting multiple sensor analysis from different players stack.
new ability
I liked the idea of moving sensor analysis from a debuff to a self-buff. My thoughts if this is the path taken:
Boosts damage over time from the science ship, as long as it is alive/not subnuked. Slower growth per tick while in red alert, hit max in 2 minutes - similar to singularity charge
Since it would not apply to the whole team, additionally each tick boosts stealth detection, different amount for different ships - newer ships or ships with larger sensor arrays get a larger boost, fleet ships get additional bonus boost. This would encourage bringing a sci ship to detect and eliminate romulan threats.
Finally, I think there needs to be an increase in the effectiveness delta from tier 1 to tier 3 of science abilities - sure an escort/cruiser could carry GW1 or TR1, but a GW3 or TR3 should be devastating vs a minor inconvenience. I would push for more damage instead of hold/drain - because players perceive a hold/drain as more annoying/rage-inducing than dying due to straight damage.
Adding a second deflector slot only for science ships that gives additional bonuses to graviton generators etc would also work, but the problem is the diminishing returns as you get to high numbers. I'd prefer a whole new device type, similar to the new warp cores - perhaps called sensor arrays, available only on science ships. That way they can offer a fairly large boost to the underlying skill without affecting the performance of escorts/cruisers.
ObKlingonsNeedSomethingFirst:
All Klingon ships that get a + to wep power, also apply that bonus to the max power limit. So +15 wep power would also mean a cap of 140 to weapons power.
I like the ideas of subsystem targeting and sensor analysis. It's the weak implementation that bugs me.
Tier 5 science vessels still only get T1 subsystem targeting? Really?
They might be better off with a variant of the Comm Array system that some cruisers are getting.
Call it Sensor Array. Instead of the separate subsystem targeting powers, make them toggles that have a (low) chance to proc every beam attack depending on which toggle is active and roll in the effects of Sensor Analysis to debuff damage resistance over time (that target lock is maintained). Add another mode that makes enemy Sensor Arrays less effective (increased defense, decreased proc, whatever). Allow allied ships within a certain range to benefit from the effect and don't let the toggles stack.
Okay, I'm trying to refine the thinking behind this idea. We'll still call it Sensor Array and it would replace both subsystem targeting and sensor analysis.
I propose that it would be similar to the Comm Array system in that it would be a set of toggles and only one toggle can be active at a time on the same science vessel (SV).
Sensor Array: Frequency Modulation Analysis
Toggling FM Analysis gives the SV (only) a small chance to reduce the target's shield damage resistance by 3% with any successful energy weapon attack. This debuff can stack up to 10 times and can be removed by any effect that breaks target lock (including the SV changing targets).
In addition, any critical hit with an energy attack by the SV or a nearby ally within 5 km has a small chance to disable the target's shield subsystem for 3 seconds. The chance to proc does not stack and the target will gain a temporary resistance to further shield disables from this ability for 6 seconds. The shield disable can be cleared by Science Team.
Sensor Array: Molecular Composite Analysis
Toggling MC Analysis gives the SV (only) a small chance to reduce the target's hull damage resistance by 3% with any science ability that does exotic damage. This debuff can stack up to 10 times and can be removed by any effect that breaks target lock (including the SV changing targets).
In addition, any critical hit with a kinetic damage weapon by the SV or a nearby ally within 5 km has a small chance to disable the target's weapon subsystem for 3 seconds. The chance to proc does not stack and the target will gain a temporary resistance to further weapon disables from this ability for 6 seconds. The weapons disable can be cleared by Tactical Team.
Sensor Array: Electro-Plasma Analysis
Toggling EP Analysis gives the SV (only) a small chance to reduce the target's engine power with any successful hit by any weapon. This debuff can stack up to 5 times and can be removed by any effect that breaks target lock (including the SV changing targets).
In addition, any critical hit with a beam weapon by the SV or a nearby ally within 5 km has a small chance to disable the target's engine subsystem for 3 seconds. The chance to proc does not stack and the target will gain a temporary resistance to further engine disables from this ability for 6 seconds. The engine disable can be cleared by Engineering Team.
Sensor Array: Signal Emissions Analysis
Toggling SE Analysis gives the SV (only) a cumulative bonus over time to the following Science skills:
The skill bonus is +2 per second and stacks up to 10 times. This bonus resets to +0 whenever (x%) ship's crew is incapacitated by damage.
In addition, while SE Analysis is active the SV and all allies within 5km will gain a flat +10 bonus to Starship Sensors skill.
Comments welcome, including why I'm an idiot for suggesting it (but tell me I'm an idiot nicely... my ego bruises easily).
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I have to say I like the idea of a Sensor Package or somesuch item as something special about science vessels, along with the accompanying ideas you've suggested Bluegeek. I definitely think many of us want to see the Science vessel really feel like it has a use, in pvp and pve in a broad sense, and not just as a ship that rarely gets used only for very niche purposes.
I like it. there are a couple of things that might make other good options based on an opposite effect of current abilities.
THen I think of an energy drain build then why not have an option of and Electical wave aura so when you drain a player it create a wave that boots the entire team when those skills are in use.
Have another toggle so that when Abilities like Gravity well is in use when allies are near it they get an acc boost Or a sling shot speed boost.
I think that instead of looking at it as raw "science abilities" the devs should consider that first and foremost, Star Trek Online is an MMO, it needs to play like one and the devs so far have built great DPS, and Tank, type players with the Escorts and the new Comm Array abilities of the cruisers. You could even stretch that to say that they even have made a "caster" or "AOE" type player in the science ships, but as was mentioned earlier, science abilities have horrible cool downs. What the game does not have is good builds for "support" or "healers". I think that the science ships have great potential to be those two roles.
Science ships are for all intents and purposes the red-headed step child. They are not made for DPS, yet they do not have the defensive capabilities as cruisers. They have a decent amount of speed, but not as much as their escort cousins. Where they lack in these areas they should be making up. Unfortunately, with the cool downs and the fact that there are simply not enough well thought out skills that line up with the "support", "healer", or "AOE."
I will say that Science ships do have a good amount holds, which if buffed a bit or put in the pool with other skills, could make for a good support build. However, there is still much to be desired when in come to the science profession, and I hope that the new Comm Array abilities opens the the door for new abilities for science ships soon.
Though there are some ships (Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser/Destroyer and Science Odyssey) that get Sensor Analysis but not subsystem targeting, and some Carriers that get subsystem targeting but not Sensor Analysis. The choice then would be to either modify what those ships get, or keep them as-is while upgrading Science Vessels.
Honestly, I feel that, aside from stuff they have added, science is mostly fine.
PvE-wise, they need to change two things:
1. Not make PvE so DPS-intensive
2. Stop giving any and all PvE enemies that are worth anything huge innate resists to all science skills. Not saying it should be super-easy, but with NPCs being essentially immune to any decent sci-skill is just a bit insane.
I have a sci Fed and sci KDF. I started KDF sci in a BoP (to nod to a previous post) so I am not thrilled about the number of ships on that side but at least I now have a sci ship even if I have only one for VA. The Romulans have a mirror version of a level 40 version of a sci ship - The Ha'nom. The ships are there even if they are limited. That being said, the feds definitely have more and better layouts so not playing any fanboi stuff here. I want more on both but will make due (for now) without tossing a fit. (note the "Disenchanted" title on all KDF I have if you think I am being a fanboi.)
Science for me is working very well in a Fleet DSSV (fed) and Voranus Fleet Support (KDF). I have been able to score first in CE (Elite) as well as Gorn/Federation Minefield and others. But on most Sci skills, I agree totally with Mimey. It is easy to shrug off a Commander level skill with an Ensign level skill whereas it's pretty hard to avoid cannon scatter volley and beam fire at will. The recent patch at least gave us two skills that have made people whine some - gravity well and tiken's rift (if you combine it with a tractor or something to stop them in it). Just remember, we have practically nothing but auto-attack with weapons (yes, we have 6 weapons but maybe a Lieutenant boff slot with possible a spare ensign that leaves them mostly weak things at best) so we must shoot with our deflector dishes.
By all means, put skills into energy and projectile weapons and into targeting but rest your nest eggs into your science skills - particle generators, gravitrons, subspace decompiler, etc. Think out your consoles and harden your sci skills as much as you can. It's a great thing to see a bunch of Borg Spheres bouncing around in a well like pools balls in a sandwich bag while you pummel them with Omega torpedoes and the well rips into their hulls. Doffs Doffs Doffs too! Invest in purple ones for Gravity Well, stripping shields with tractors, damaging with repulsors, etc. Because it's even better to spawn a couple more wells to catch the stragglers from the first well and finish them off. If you pvp, get a mixed bag of skills so you can change it up.
Sci is better now than it has been in a very long time. It's not the best it can be but it is getting some love here lately (now share that love with the KDF and Romulan ones, PWI/Cryptic!). I love my sci and will fly even if I shoot only poms poms and yell GO TEAM (well, until I get banned for being AFK but that is a different bug hahaha). Sci is viable but as the weakest class, we just have to work it harder to make it equal.
Other things to mention is I agree with madoknight89 about the inconsistencies between sci ships. They should all have target subsystems and sensor analysis simple because of the sheer lack of anything tactical and practically engineering as well to boost our weapons. We do need to shoot things while we debuff and tackle/block for the team. The last note from me to the Devs would be give us some kind of ability to AoE heal or something. No God Mode healing but something more than hazard emitters and engineering team 1 and 2 that shares a cooldown with science team. It's hard to heal anything effectively when it is all on the same timer.
Though there are some ships (Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser/Destroyer and Science Odyssey) that get Sensor Analysis but not subsystem targeting, and some Carriers that get subsystem targeting but not Sensor Analysis. The choice then would be to either modify what those ships get, or keep them as-is while upgrading Science Vessels.
If they devs use a similar model as they've done with Cruisers, perhaps this will be how they handle the issue. Giving full choice to the pure Science, and less available options/toggles to Vessels like the Khnial you mentioned.
Okay, I'm trying to refine the thinking behind this idea. We'll still call it Sensor Array and it would replace both subsystem targeting and sensor analysis.
I propose that it would be similar to the Comm Array system in that it would be a set of toggles and only one toggle can be active at a time on the same science vessel (SV).
Sensor Array: Frequency Modulation Analysis
Toggling FM Analysis gives the SV (only) a small chance to reduce the target's shield damage resistance by 3% with any successful energy weapon attack. This debuff can stack up to 10 times and can be removed by any effect that breaks target lock (including the SV changing targets).
In addition, any critical hit with an energy attack by the SV or a nearby ally within 5 km has a small chance to disable the target's shield subsystem for 3 seconds. The chance to proc does not stack and the target will gain a temporary resistance to further shield disables from this ability for 6 seconds. The shield disable can be cleared by Science Team.
Sensor Array: Molecular Composite Analysis
Toggling MC Analysis gives the SV (only) a small chance to reduce the target's hull damage resistance by 3% with any science ability that does exotic damage. This debuff can stack up to 10 times and can be removed by any effect that breaks target lock (including the SV changing targets).
In addition, any critical hit with a kinetic damage weapon by the SV or a nearby ally within 5 km has a small chance to disable the target's weapon subsystem for 3 seconds. The chance to proc does not stack and the target will gain a temporary resistance to further weapon disables from this ability for 6 seconds. The weapons disable can be cleared by Tactical Team.
Sensor Array: Electro-Plasma Analysis
Toggling EP Analysis gives the SV (only) a small chance to reduce the target's engine power with any successful hit by any weapon. This debuff can stack up to 5 times and can be removed by any effect that breaks target lock (including the SV changing targets).
In addition, any critical hit with a beam weapon by the SV or a nearby ally within 5 km has a small chance to disable the target's engine subsystem for 3 seconds. The chance to proc does not stack and the target will gain a temporary resistance to further engine disables from this ability for 6 seconds. The engine disable can be cleared by Engineering Team.
Sensor Array: Signal Emissions Analysis
Toggling SE Analysis gives the SV (only) a cumulative bonus over time to the following Science skills:
The skill bonus is +2 per second and stacks up to 10 times. This bonus resets to +0 whenever (x%) ship's crew is incapacitated by damage.
In addition, while SE Analysis is active the SV and all allies within 5km will gain a flat +10 bonus to Starship Sensors skill.
Comments welcome, including why I'm an idiot for suggesting it (but tell me I'm an idiot nicely... my ego bruises easily).
Maybe I'm weird, but I kind of want something different for Science Vessels. The Comm Arrays are a good cruiser command ship thing to have, but I want the science vessels to have something different and unique to them.
That said, these do have a suite of truly science ability things. In the interest of team work it makes sense. A starship in a combat situation is only going to have so much computing power to go around. Having each ship concentrate on a single thing could be extremely effective. One ship gets the targets shield modulation, another does a schematics scan to identify physical weakness, while the cruisers analyze incoming fire to adjust the team's shields.
The weird thing of course is that canonically these are things that each ship is supposed to be able to do by itself though to different degrees. The Intrepid and Prometheus classes both could analyze incoming fire and adjust shields to match, and every ship since Star Trek II could target individual subsystems. (Some more successfully than others...I'm looking at you Kruge's first Gunner).
I would like to see what the devs come up with though. I didn't see the comms array coming and I'm liking it. Maybe they'll have something for science vessels too.
I think that instead of looking at it as raw "science abilities" the devs should consider that first and foremost, Star Trek Online is an MMO, it needs to play like one and the devs so far have built great DPS, and Tank, type players with the Escorts and the new Comm Array abilities of the cruisers. You could even stretch that to say that they even have made a "caster" or "AOE" type player in the science ships, but as was mentioned earlier, science abilities have horrible cool downs. What the game does not have is good builds for "support" or "healers". I think that the science ships have great potential to be those two roles.
Science ships are for all intents and purposes the red-headed step child. They are not made for DPS, yet they do not have the defensive capabilities as cruisers. They have a decent amount of speed, but not as much as their escort cousins. Where they lack in these areas they should be making up. Unfortunately, with the cool downs and the fact that there are simply not enough well thought out skills that line up with the "support", "healer", or "AOE."
I will say that Science ships do have a good amount holds, which if buffed a bit or put in the pool with other skills, could make for a good support build. However, there is still much to be desired when in come to the science profession, and I hope that the new Comm Array abilities opens the the door for new abilities for science ships soon.
The issue is still of course that the way dps and resists are set up, there really is no heal as once your defenses are down it's very easy to finish the job on anything but a well built cruiser.
I think it's telling that the most effective strategy for healing is basically to initiate the heal before the ship takes the hit as things like transfer shield energy increases the resist and negates the most brutal portion of the damage.
As for offensively, if we were to look at the Science Vessel as a black mage, they're woefully underpowered. They're more like a Green or Red Mage or even a Bard.
A Tyken's Rift completely immobilized the Enterprise-D and it required teamwork with another ship to escape it. This Tyken's Rift can be escaped with well, it doesn't trap at all and is only really useful against huge ships that don't move a lot anyway. It shouldn't take the application of a second ability to make one ability useful. It's far more effective to drop an Aceton Assimilator if you have it. (Which operates pretty much as it should and is appropriately less effective than in canon).
I think a good fix for Tachyon beam wouldn't be to eat away at shields but to nullify and degrade all resists, making the shields even at full have higher permeability, a bleed-through multiplier. This has the advantage of making the less weapons available on a Sci ship more useful.
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That being said there's also the issue that this is a game, not real life. There's also the fact that you kind of want there to be some semblance of gameplay balance in a video game / mmo.
To round the ships out.
Gravity Well should be a much larger effect. Like the size of a Borg Cube, large enough that a Unimatrix Command Ship starts to be pulled into it. Perhaps scaling in size with the level. I mean we're generating a gravity well, it should be one order of magnitude less than detonating a kilogram of Red Matter next to your opponent.
On that subject perhaps an Event Horizon type trap move. I mean it was terrible for science but it was a cool episode of Voyager regardless.
Tyken's Rift should be something on a five minute cooldown...because it's so devastating. I mean Tyken's Rift completely immobilized the Big E and drove the crew nuts, so it should immobilize the ship, drain power levels to almost nil, and TRIBBLE with Boff powers, probably through increasing cooldowns.
Love all of this. There isn't a lot of scanning. The truth is all ships should have the ability to target a subsystem it was standard practice. You can't tell me Kruge was a sci captain. Science vessels should be able to target them more effectively and specifically. A branching targeting solution would be nice. Like in Darmok where the Enterprise couldn't directly target the tractor beam emitters on Dathon's ship, but they could target the power relays leading to it.
Science should also be able to detect environmental hazards, such a planetary magnetic field that increases stealth.
I think that's a major issue in itself. The idea that you have to fully spec into something like gravimetrics so your gravity well will be effective is bad. A science ship should be able to use multiple venues.
And just for the record I count Sci Carriers as Sci Vessels.
This is a Starfleet Vessel and as Jonathan Archer found out, a starship with no weapons is a target out in space away from home. So you don't need to look at the Calypso, you need to look at Voyager, which had 13 phaser arrays and 5 torpedo tubes. Or the Nova class like Equinox which had 11 phasers and 2 torpedo tubes (and frankly should be a bit further along on the science ship chain than Olympic, Oberth, and Nebula really it's a much newer ship, albeit far lighter than the last).
All Starfleet vessels have to be able to defend themselves effectively.
I like this it's a good thought, increased proc rate would certainly make them more effective (sudden;y you see science ships everywhere with anti-proton and disruptor weapons), but I think it shows an interesting perspective.
In a way, Science ships in this game are ALL about secondary effects. Think about, Sci ships CC and debuff abilities are secondary effects made their primary form of attack. However they get about as much respect in practice as a secondary effect would get. There's only one true feared science ability and that is Subnucleonic Beam which mandates carrying sci team which most people don't due to the conflict with tac team. Most of the others have multiple ways to be dealt with. Tractor beam and Gravity well can all be escaped from via emergency to engines, Pattern Omega, and evasive maneuvers. Tractor beam is also countered by polarize hull and tractor beam repulsors. Tyken's Rift? I drop a Tyken's Rift and watch everyone fly through it with utter impunity, the only time it takes any effect is if someone else has dropped a gravity well of some power, and they can't escape it yet, or if my own gravity well has aftershocked.
As opposed to that utilized by your average borg sphere, the player tachyon beam is just completely ignored, I replaced it with Photonic officer which while nice, considering the reset, is practically only useful for an alpha strike, which sci vessels are woefully underequipped to execute. I said practically, the truth being an alpha should only last one power cycle anyway. But there's little chance even an intermediate sci player can take out a meaningful enemy before it wears off.
I don't like the vision of a science vessel being first and foremost a healing and CC vessel right now as those roles have little place in this game. The fact is that "in a galaxy, where the only thing that counts is how quickly you can kill your opponents" (Don LaFontaine we still love you), Science vessels can't kill efficiently and move on. Furthermore healing still seems weird to me when we're talking about ship to ship in combat repairs.
The style of it should be different I agree, science vessels shouldn't be trying to pound their enemies into submission, they should be bypassing their defenses. Analysis and scanning should be trying to lock down an opponent's shield modulation (something that should play more of a role in the ship side of this game) and then just fire through their shields directly to the hull (imagine the sci torpedo builds then). Cruisers should be able to mitigate some of the damage from such an attack by durability, while escorts can do that speed tanking thing they do, but if we're truly talking about a vessel that specializes in asymmetrical indirect warfare, then it needs to hurt.
Science vessels are not going to be the damage kings through their weapons and attack patterns and keeping 125 to weapons like escorts and cruisers and Warbirds especially. So if we can shoot through someone's defenses....then we have to go around them. It's inexcusable that any vessel in this day and age can't be made effective even with different playstyles. Min Maxing has to have a drawback. It shouldn't be an issue of you get killed by a science vessel they need to be nerfed- no, you got killed by a science vessel because you have foregone adequate defense against them in order to have more killing power, that is fair.
A science vessel should not be a white mage with some red mage powers, it should be a black mage with some white mage powers.
Science vessels should also be able to utilize environmental hazards though I understand that could be difficult in the game engine. For instance, in the stage in the Breen Front where you're fighting in the tail of a comet, gravity well or tractor beam should not only immobilize the target, but should pull in chunks of the comet to collide with the enemy in the same way as chunks of the crystalline entity. Or in the missions in the Badlands, you should be able to paint the opponent with an electron beam that ionizes their hull and gets one of the plasma streams to hit them.
I totally support this idea. It would fit the sophisticated sensor-arrays a science-ship is supposed to utilize.
Escorts get DHCs, we know how well that works.
Cruisers get +1 weapon slot, thanks to overcapping FAW that now works.
Science Vessels get Sensor Analysis at the cost of a weapon slot. It is not that good.
Make sensor analysis a buff to self that builds up like singularity charge. That would solve 9/10ths of the problem. If that isn't enough you could add extra binnies to the sensor analysis buff such as +5 particle generator skill per stack. This could be achieved with the secondary deflectors.
That being said, I'm very curious to see what they do with Science vessels after this.
The big problem with this solution is that most science captain skills have very little impact on the effectiveness of the abilities they govern. Try testing a gravity well with and without a full rack of graviton generator consoles and see how much difference it makes. The answer (if your captain already has a few points in graviton generators) is no discernible difference btw.
This is the best solution. Science ships possess their weaknesses to offset the incredible power of SCIENCE that they alone can wield in shear quantity. Unfortunately right now the incredible thing about science powers is that they are not powerful.
Of course these days every other ship seams to have lieutenant commander universal boff slots so maybe just buffing science powers isn't enough to bring science ships into line.
If that is determined to be the case then my preferred buff to science ships would be to scrap subsystem targeting and sensor analysis and instead have a 20% reduction in the global cool down of science abilities (not the individual cool downs).
the global cool downs on many engineering and tactical abilities impose a 5 second unbuffed period between uses. But many science abilities when doubled up still suffer from much longer periods of dis-use. By reducing the global cool down on these abilities we must still double up abilities, but the benefit from doing so is much greater.
Also given that every one and their mother has some sort of tractor beam immunity it would be nice to start a 2nd one before the 1st one ends. Just to give us some chance of catching some one at some point.
Tier 5 science vessels still only get T1 subsystem targeting? Really?
They might be better off with a variant of the Comm Array system that some cruisers are getting.
Call it Sensor Array. Instead of the separate subsystem targeting powers, make them toggles that have a (low) chance to proc every beam attack depending on which toggle is active and roll in the effects of Sensor Analysis to debuff damage resistance over time (that target lock is maintained). Add another mode that makes enemy Sensor Arrays less effective (increased defense, decreased proc, whatever). Allow allied ships within a certain range to benefit from the effect and don't let the toggles stack.
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Sensor Analysis
With the addition of all the passive placates, this ability has been seriously hurt. Suggestions:
- Make the intensity modified with Aux power. Current intensity would equal 75 aux, and double the intensity at 125 aux. Another option would be to decrease the stack time - 6 seconds at 75 aux, 3 seconds at 125 aux.
- Make the debuff usable by your side, not just the player (I assume it only applies to the player, STO wiki is fuzzy there). This would make Sci ships boost the damage of the whole team and/or any pets they might have, including photonic fleet.
- Optionally, have it reduce the target's resistance to science abilties - each stack reduces Power Insulators, Inertial Dampers and Sensors by 5 - so a full stack is -50.
Of course, some balancing might be necessary, perhaps not letting multiple sensor analysis from different players stack.new ability
I liked the idea of moving sensor analysis from a debuff to a self-buff. My thoughts if this is the path taken:
Finally, I think there needs to be an increase in the effectiveness delta from tier 1 to tier 3 of science abilities - sure an escort/cruiser could carry GW1 or TR1, but a GW3 or TR3 should be devastating vs a minor inconvenience. I would push for more damage instead of hold/drain - because players perceive a hold/drain as more annoying/rage-inducing than dying due to straight damage.
Adding a second deflector slot only for science ships that gives additional bonuses to graviton generators etc would also work, but the problem is the diminishing returns as you get to high numbers. I'd prefer a whole new device type, similar to the new warp cores - perhaps called sensor arrays, available only on science ships. That way they can offer a fairly large boost to the underlying skill without affecting the performance of escorts/cruisers.
ObKlingonsNeedSomethingFirst:
All Klingon ships that get a + to wep power, also apply that bonus to the max power limit. So +15 wep power would also mean a cap of 140 to weapons power.
Okay, I'm trying to refine the thinking behind this idea. We'll still call it Sensor Array and it would replace both subsystem targeting and sensor analysis.
I propose that it would be similar to the Comm Array system in that it would be a set of toggles and only one toggle can be active at a time on the same science vessel (SV).
Sensor Array: Frequency Modulation Analysis
Toggling FM Analysis gives the SV (only) a small chance to reduce the target's shield damage resistance by 3% with any successful energy weapon attack. This debuff can stack up to 10 times and can be removed by any effect that breaks target lock (including the SV changing targets).
In addition, any critical hit with an energy attack by the SV or a nearby ally within 5 km has a small chance to disable the target's shield subsystem for 3 seconds. The chance to proc does not stack and the target will gain a temporary resistance to further shield disables from this ability for 6 seconds. The shield disable can be cleared by Science Team.
Sensor Array: Molecular Composite Analysis
Toggling MC Analysis gives the SV (only) a small chance to reduce the target's hull damage resistance by 3% with any science ability that does exotic damage. This debuff can stack up to 10 times and can be removed by any effect that breaks target lock (including the SV changing targets).
In addition, any critical hit with a kinetic damage weapon by the SV or a nearby ally within 5 km has a small chance to disable the target's weapon subsystem for 3 seconds. The chance to proc does not stack and the target will gain a temporary resistance to further weapon disables from this ability for 6 seconds. The weapons disable can be cleared by Tactical Team.
Sensor Array: Electro-Plasma Analysis
Toggling EP Analysis gives the SV (only) a small chance to reduce the target's engine power with any successful hit by any weapon. This debuff can stack up to 5 times and can be removed by any effect that breaks target lock (including the SV changing targets).
In addition, any critical hit with a beam weapon by the SV or a nearby ally within 5 km has a small chance to disable the target's engine subsystem for 3 seconds. The chance to proc does not stack and the target will gain a temporary resistance to further engine disables from this ability for 6 seconds. The engine disable can be cleared by Engineering Team.
Sensor Array: Signal Emissions Analysis
Toggling SE Analysis gives the SV (only) a cumulative bonus over time to the following Science skills:
- Starship Flow Capacitors
- Starship Graviton Generators
- Starship Particle Generators
- Starship Countermeasure Systems
- Starship Subspace Decompiler
The skill bonus is +2 per second and stacks up to 10 times. This bonus resets to +0 whenever (x%) ship's crew is incapacitated by damage.
In addition, while SE Analysis is active the SV and all allies within 5km will gain a flat +10 bonus to Starship Sensors skill.
Comments welcome, including why I'm an idiot for suggesting it (but tell me I'm an idiot nicely... my ego bruises easily).
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THen I think of an energy drain build then why not have an option of and Electical wave aura so when you drain a player it create a wave that boots the entire team when those skills are in use.
Have another toggle so that when Abilities like Gravity well is in use when allies are near it they get an acc boost Or a sling shot speed boost.
Science ships are for all intents and purposes the red-headed step child. They are not made for DPS, yet they do not have the defensive capabilities as cruisers. They have a decent amount of speed, but not as much as their escort cousins. Where they lack in these areas they should be making up. Unfortunately, with the cool downs and the fact that there are simply not enough well thought out skills that line up with the "support", "healer", or "AOE."
I will say that Science ships do have a good amount holds, which if buffed a bit or put in the pool with other skills, could make for a good support build. However, there is still much to be desired when in come to the science profession, and I hope that the new Comm Array abilities opens the the door for new abilities for science ships soon.
Though there are some ships (Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser/Destroyer and Science Odyssey) that get Sensor Analysis but not subsystem targeting, and some Carriers that get subsystem targeting but not Sensor Analysis. The choice then would be to either modify what those ships get, or keep them as-is while upgrading Science Vessels.
I have a sci Fed and sci KDF. I started KDF sci in a BoP (to nod to a previous post) so I am not thrilled about the number of ships on that side but at least I now have a sci ship even if I have only one for VA. The Romulans have a mirror version of a level 40 version of a sci ship - The Ha'nom. The ships are there even if they are limited. That being said, the feds definitely have more and better layouts so not playing any fanboi stuff here. I want more on both but will make due (for now) without tossing a fit. (note the "Disenchanted" title on all KDF I have if you think I am being a fanboi.)
Science for me is working very well in a Fleet DSSV (fed) and Voranus Fleet Support (KDF). I have been able to score first in CE (Elite) as well as Gorn/Federation Minefield and others. But on most Sci skills, I agree totally with Mimey. It is easy to shrug off a Commander level skill with an Ensign level skill whereas it's pretty hard to avoid cannon scatter volley and beam fire at will. The recent patch at least gave us two skills that have made people whine some - gravity well and tiken's rift (if you combine it with a tractor or something to stop them in it). Just remember, we have practically nothing but auto-attack with weapons (yes, we have 6 weapons but maybe a Lieutenant boff slot with possible a spare ensign that leaves them mostly weak things at best) so we must shoot with our deflector dishes.
By all means, put skills into energy and projectile weapons and into targeting but rest your nest eggs into your science skills - particle generators, gravitrons, subspace decompiler, etc. Think out your consoles and harden your sci skills as much as you can. It's a great thing to see a bunch of Borg Spheres bouncing around in a well like pools balls in a sandwich bag while you pummel them with Omega torpedoes and the well rips into their hulls. Doffs Doffs Doffs too! Invest in purple ones for Gravity Well, stripping shields with tractors, damaging with repulsors, etc. Because it's even better to spawn a couple more wells to catch the stragglers from the first well and finish them off. If you pvp, get a mixed bag of skills so you can change it up.
Sci is better now than it has been in a very long time. It's not the best it can be but it is getting some love here lately (now share that love with the KDF and Romulan ones, PWI/Cryptic!). I love my sci and will fly even if I shoot only poms poms and yell GO TEAM (well, until I get banned for being AFK but that is a different bug hahaha). Sci is viable but as the weakest class, we just have to work it harder to make it equal.
Other things to mention is I agree with madoknight89 about the inconsistencies between sci ships. They should all have target subsystems and sensor analysis simple because of the sheer lack of anything tactical and practically engineering as well to boost our weapons. We do need to shoot things while we debuff and tackle/block for the team. The last note from me to the Devs would be give us some kind of ability to AoE heal or something. No God Mode healing but something more than hazard emitters and engineering team 1 and 2 that shares a cooldown with science team. It's hard to heal anything effectively when it is all on the same timer.
If they devs use a similar model as they've done with Cruisers, perhaps this will be how they handle the issue. Giving full choice to the pure Science, and less available options/toggles to Vessels like the Khnial you mentioned.
That said, these do have a suite of truly science ability things. In the interest of team work it makes sense. A starship in a combat situation is only going to have so much computing power to go around. Having each ship concentrate on a single thing could be extremely effective. One ship gets the targets shield modulation, another does a schematics scan to identify physical weakness, while the cruisers analyze incoming fire to adjust the team's shields.
The weird thing of course is that canonically these are things that each ship is supposed to be able to do by itself though to different degrees. The Intrepid and Prometheus classes both could analyze incoming fire and adjust shields to match, and every ship since Star Trek II could target individual subsystems. (Some more successfully than others...I'm looking at you Kruge's first Gunner).
I would like to see what the devs come up with though. I didn't see the comms array coming and I'm liking it. Maybe they'll have something for science vessels too.
The issue is still of course that the way dps and resists are set up, there really is no heal as once your defenses are down it's very easy to finish the job on anything but a well built cruiser.
I think it's telling that the most effective strategy for healing is basically to initiate the heal before the ship takes the hit as things like transfer shield energy increases the resist and negates the most brutal portion of the damage.
As for offensively, if we were to look at the Science Vessel as a black mage, they're woefully underpowered. They're more like a Green or Red Mage or even a Bard.
A Tyken's Rift completely immobilized the Enterprise-D and it required teamwork with another ship to escape it. This Tyken's Rift can be escaped with well, it doesn't trap at all and is only really useful against huge ships that don't move a lot anyway. It shouldn't take the application of a second ability to make one ability useful. It's far more effective to drop an Aceton Assimilator if you have it. (Which operates pretty much as it should and is appropriately less effective than in canon).
I think a good fix for Tachyon beam wouldn't be to eat away at shields but to nullify and degrade all resists, making the shields even at full have higher permeability, a bleed-through multiplier. This has the advantage of making the less weapons available on a Sci ship more useful.