With all due respect, I think it's time that ship sails back then...
Park yourself in Earth spacedock orbit, go ahead, I'll wait. Take a gander around and you may notice that "actual starfleet vessels: are becoming more and more the minority to alien lock bock ships, or other alien created ships.
The same in orbit around Kronos.
We have: (BIG breath) schimitars, warbirds, timeships, jem hadar ships, cardassian ships, tal shiar adapted ships, Elachi ships, ferengi ships, andorian ships, Vulcan ships, Caitain ships, Suliban ships and freighters, all parked around Earth spacedock at any given time.
I signed up to play "Star Trek: online: and with each passing lock box event, this game becomes a game,more and more loosely based on that said franchise and frankly, will continue to do so unless something is done so that Iconic fan favorites from the actual franchise, can compete.
I personally, am ALWAYS in full support of any Iconic Star Fleet ship from the Star Trek franchise getting a refurbish so that it may compete with the growing lox box fleet.
Same goes for iconic KDF ships too.
I'd HATE that the only place I see the galaxy now a days is NPC ships flying around spacedock, or represented in signs around spacedock, or featured in advertisements for Star Trek online.
Because you won't see one in PVP, (PVPers have stated that flying any variant of the galaxy signifies one as a noob) and it's becoming more and more rare to see one in any dps oriented STF because it doesn't contribute enough dps wise to the newer ships.
Course Cryptic knows this.
They have the threadnaught and all that metadata.
If I didn't know any better, I'd say it wouldn't be in their interests to make the Galaxy comparable to newer ships, because they might compete with the latest lock box offerings. :rolleyes:
In so far as "newer" ships, I for one bought all the newer variants to the Iconic ships. Cryptic has made their money off of refits, retrofits, Ventures, Belerophons, Thunderchilds, armitiges, Belfasts, comets ect. ect.
I'd like to think of these as newer time appropriate versions of canon Star fleet ships.
Dammit you, that's a great point. Seeing people flying Starfleet ships is getting rarer. Mainly Oddys, the occasional Galaxy Dreadnought, and nubs flying connies or miranda variants. I still see MVAEs here and there.
All of the ships I have are Fed ships, either freebies from levelling, or Mirror ships. all the cool lockbox stuff is way out of my EC range. Wouldn't mind a Monbosh, though, heard good things about it, and I think it looks neat, and the JHAS because I'm a Tac and could use a badass escort.
I still have my T4 Galaxy, though, and I wanna take it out more, but yeah, old and weak, and I don't have the spare cash to get the Fleet or C-Store galaxies... Hell, my fleet's shipyards are Tier 1 at best. *sigh*
I do hope that the changes they make to the Galaxy and it's cousins are retroactive. I don't wanna re-buy my Dreadnought. Or have to buy another one.
Weyland-Yutani Joint Space Venture - Always open to new members!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
That's because the Galaxy is a pure tank in PvP, and not only is tanking pretty much restricted to open PvP areas, but no one wants to tank and not kill anything. And it's difficult to tank in the Galaxy too; roleplaying players can't pull it off (and thus the "noob" title).
StarboardNacelle is the only person who consistently uses the Galaxy in PvP. I'm not an active player as of the end of August; otherwise, I'd be the second person.
With all due respect, I think it's time that ship sails back then...
Park yourself in Earth spacedock orbit, go ahead, I'll wait. Take a gander around and you may notice that "actual starfleet vessels: are becoming more and more the minority to alien lock bock ships, or other alien created ships.
The same in orbit around Kronos.
We have: (BIG breath) schimitars, warbirds, timeships, jem hadar ships, cardassian ships, tal shiar adapted ships, Elachi ships, ferengi ships, andorian ships, Vulcan ships, Caitain ships, Suliban ships and freighters, all parked around Earth spacedock at any given time.
I signed up to play "Star Trek: online: and with each passing lock box event, this game becomes a game,more and more loosely based on that said franchise and frankly, will continue to do so unless something is done so that Iconic fan favorites from the actual franchise, can compete.
I personally, am ALWAYS in full support of any Iconic Star Fleet ship from the Star Trek franchise getting a refurbish so that it may compete with the growing lox box fleet.
Same goes for iconic KDF ships too.
I'd HATE that the only place I see the galaxy now a days is NPC ships flying around spacedock, or represented in signs around spacedock, or featured in advertisements for Star Trek online.
Because you won't see one in PVP, (PVPers have stated that flying any variant of the galaxy signifies one as a noob) and it's becoming more and more rare to see one in any dps oriented STF because it doesn't contribute enough dps wise to the newer ships.
Course Cryptic knows this.
They have the threadnaught and all that metadata.
If I didn't know any better, I'd say it wouldn't be in their interests to make the Galaxy comparable to newer ships, because they might compete with the latest lock box offerings. :rolleyes:
In so far as "newer" ships, I for one bought all the newer variants to these Iconic ships. Cryptic has made their money off of: refits, retrofits, Ventures, Belerophons, Thunderchilds, armitiges, Belfasts, comets ect. ect.
I'd like to think of these as newer more time appropriate versions of canon Star fleet ships.
HAHA totally agree its becoming something else. I do see a few other ships that are trek design here and there. But you are spot on there is less and less of the ships we saw in the shows and more lock box ships parked outside esd every week.
Dunno for the life of me can't get my fed toon out of his Defiant retrofit fleet and keep playing around in G-X but would be nice if the intrepid i owned got updated and ofcourse i'd love to see the galaxy fleet retrofit switched to a different setup so it can be worth taking out of space dock.
I would rather wait for them do fix it right then to change it, have people still complain and then have fix it again. I think that the Exploration can be most benefited by fixing the problems that afflict all cruisers because it is the center of what is a cruiser in the game, all the other ships are offshoots of it. I think that a properly working engineer skills set, which the Exploration cruiser has in spades, would be very competitive if they fix the engineer boff skills.
The GCS would still be the most passive Starfleet Crusier.
So in your desire to be not be the weakest sheep in a den of wolves, your still willing to be a sheep. At the end of the day, you are still dinner. That might work for you, but thats not where I want to be sitting.
That's why i have said they should do BOTH.
But the GCS needs to be done first, to give her the place she belongs to and THEN Starfleet Crusiers need to be reworked.
There is no point in reworking all Starfleet cruisers if the GCS ends up being the most passive of them again.
I agree, I don't trust them either, but if I am to put my efforts into one area that is likely to get results, fixing all cruisers has the best chance of getting support, even if it keeps the Explorer as the weakest cruiser, it will still be a stronger cruiser and it will cure the majority of the Explorers problems. It would also make for a better argument after the whole type is fixed.
No, the GCS is NOT supposed to be so "weak" compared to a Ambassador, Excelsior or even Nova Class.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Could this "Battle Cruiser" possibly be a new Galaxy variant?
It would be A-W-E-S-O-M-E, but still Cryptic has disappointed me way too often, to belive that before i have seen it.
Yet there is a Battle Crusier and Fleet Battle Crusier mentioned, which indicates a totally new ship IMO.
Let's hope it doesn't look/perform as crappy as most of Cryptics Starfleet designs do.
I wish i could go and play a KDF character without getting sick all the time, their ships are exactly what i am looking for, lol.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Yes, two Lt. Cmdr stations.
The D'Deridex has a similar BOFF layout, but instead of a ensign science and universal, i made it one Lt. engineering. (I think since the D'D has so many other advantages a Lt. engineering should be doable.)
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I don't get why people always discuss that "old" designs shouldn't get refits anymore. We are talking about the TNG era Star Trek ships here.
If they are "so old" would you actually prefer to fly just some original Cryptic designs istead of, well, STAR TREK ships in a STAR TREK game? I never get that argument. Besides, nobody complains that the friggin Excelsior Class is one of the best cruisers in the game. The Ambassador Class likewise. Why is that not a problem, bt forbid we fly Intrepids, Galaxies or Defiants at endgame
Honestly, I don't think that this is the problem.
I am going to step back for a moment from the fact that this is a game and our captains supposedly being the best of the best of the best of the sort that come in to save the Enterprise when IT gets in over its head, and in that role are able to overcome gear that may be far more rustic than optimal. In this case the argument is, plain and simple, the fact that people want to use their favorite ship, and I completely understand and support this.
The problem is not all those "old 23rd century" ships. The 23rd century ships are fine. The Sovereign, Intrepid, Defiant, Galaxy - they're, what, 30-50 years old? I think many can see those being upgraded, perhaps heavily so, and definitely still in service.
The problem comes when it gets older and older than that. The Ambassador seems to be what I'd consider the "oldest" ship I personally consider viable, and that's a bit of a stretch. Beyond this you're getting into ships that are around 120 years old, with ancient exterior designs, to the point where upgrading the ship is probably more expensive than getting a completely new ship, and where the basic spaceframe doesn't conform to new engineering wisdom regarding warp field efficiencies, which are the main things that shape Starfleet ships AFAIK. This can grate on the sensitivities of many people who are heavy into ship specs in canon and that sort of thing.
From what I have observed, and personally think, the biggest eye-catching problems here are the Excelsior and the Galaxy. For a very long time, the Excelsior was the best, if not ONLY, tactical cruiser available to Federation captains who didn't want to go into a lockbox to get a ship they arguably never should have had access to in the first place. The main exception to this would be the Dreadnaught, which is a polarizing ship that's pretty hard to use and arguably without the lance/cloak not much more than a slower standard Assault Cruiser. So you basically had one of the oldest ships as one of the most desirable (by a considerable margin) end game, and this is shoved in the face of a lot of people who wanted to see the Sovereign kick as much butt as it did in canon. And make no mistake about it - this is a Star Trek game, so as much as people may cry that escorts fill a metagame DPS position and too bad for the cruiser lovers, the cruisers are the most noteworthy "hero" ships and will be expected to fulfill a significant damage-dealing position.
That brings us to the Galaxy class. Many people perceive the Galaxy class as the "ultimate tank," and that's the role that it should stay at. Maybe this is the case. But a lot of us, particularly those who watched TNG growing up, saw the Galaxy differently. Specifically, while rarely called upon to act in the role, it was an incredibly powerful battleship that, for all of its faults, was not to be trifled with, even by the powerful Vor'cha or D'deridex ships of the day that were arguably designed more specifically for combat. Indeed, it acted in the role of anchor for at least one major fleet operation when establishing a blockade against Romulans attempting to get to Quo'nos. It was, however, placed in the role of "tank," which, combined with the engineering powers mess, resulted in a thread that has gone on for months on end and perhaps thousands of posts by this point.
As such, you have the Excelsior, an antique, in perhaps the most desirable cruiser position, the Sovereign, the "current" battlefield dominator as of the last TNG movies stuck in an effective (but grating) jack-of-all-trades position, and the Galaxy reduced to what many still consider the worst cruiser in the game. This takes the "old ships at end game" situation, dumps glass shards in it, and rubs it in the face of people who are very up on ship specs. It was made even worse by the lack of an option of a more modern skin to put on the Excelsior class, if the captain so chose.
Now some might say that this is not the case - look at all the people who don't care about the Klingon D7 ships! Well, although there are many hard-core Klingon fans, simple fact of the matter is that Klingon coverage, canon, soft canon and fanon alike, just isn't as dense or popular as that for Starfleet. For instance, Klingon ships likely have far fewer MSD's available on the fanon market all examining the maximum warp potential and internal layout of the D7 versus that of the original Excelsior. As such there is a lot less concern and observation as to the "proper" age and role of Klingon ships. Add to this the fact that the Klingons have much more desirable roles for most of their more modern ships, and it seems to me that the Klingons just plain didn't have nearly as much to scream about here.
So it seems to me that this and incidents such as this caused a serious grating on the suspension of disbelief. While there will always be purists who argue in great detail about ships being too old to serve, it is more grating when you are forced to use an antique to fulfill a broad role that is especially desired. This has caused a great deal of exacerbation among those who would normally ignore it.
DISCLAIMERS:
* This is all my opinion and observation.
* My current main toon used the T3 and T5 Excelsiors, and I have a rather new appreciation for the ship.
* I did however cringe when my standard AC was a less worthy battleship than the Excelsior back when I started when F2P started.
* I am in no way calling for the Excelsior to be gimped. In fact, I'm hoping a Fleet Cruiser Retrofit is in the works somewhere down the line, among other things. Merely that some weakened, but fan-loved, ships, should get reworking to be formidable combatants as well.
* Much of this seems to have softened as ships such as the Assault Cruiser Refit have been introduced, allowing for more variety, although the Galaxy-R fans are still rather piqued, as is evidenced by continued calls for the ship's reworking, and I can't say I disagree; nevertheless, it has stuck around.
i am ok on the beam area, for me to return back to beam, they would have to have,like you suggested, less firing cicle and better spike damage.
or a simple solution i would love to see implemented, a BFAW for 1 target.
i am not agree on the engie power however, if the idea is to make engie power some new disguised tact power, this is not the way to solve the problem but to create more.
if this is done we will have effectivly 2 tact proffesion in game with a science one.
and then brace for impact for " what is your beef with science power cryptic " tread, and with all right!
Not a new disguised tac power, I think engineering has some decent offensive options already, they just need to be reworked so that eject warp plasma and aceton beam are not both completely instantly cleared by hazard emitters or shrugged off by attack pattern omega, boarding party shouldn't be magically, completely cleared by tac team since pretty much everyone has that back to back, and directed energy modulation barely does anything, especially since it is based on weapon attack and weapon power setting. If an escort can equip DEM with dual heavy cannons and full power to weapons, it will hit harder than a cruiser with DEM and beams and full power to weapons. Granted escorts are limited from taking DEM3, but still.
yes, share cooldown ensign engi power is a problem, dontdrunkimshoot have suggested to lower the level of auxtobat, auxtobat 1 starting at ensign, i found it to be a great idea among other like mine to transfert tractor beam and polarize hull to engineering.
anyway we are all agree that we got a problem here.
I wouldn't mind that except then we would be taking things away from science, which could use some help too. Alternatively they could make all ensign powers universal, everyone aboard a starship should have at least basic training in all departments even if they are specialized engineers, scientists, or tactical officers, so it would make sense. However, this would be the equivalent of making all ensigns universal, and would remove the benefit of ships with universal ensigns, so those would have to be reworked as well, so that's doubtful to be implemented.
if you have a build around it, this power do have theeth! i have fight some build that where using attack pattern beta + DEM+ FBP and BFAW, if you are not carreful, even your rsp won't save you, i don't want to think what those things would do with elachi weapons!
dem is not a tactical power on it own, that not is intended purpose, but well configured it it deadly ( especially with marion france dulmur and kcb proc )
DEM is entirely a "tactical" or "offensive" power, so that is most certainly its intended purpose. I have tried my darndest to make DEM work and it has never done anything for me, that or if I can get it to do some decent damage, the cool on it is so long that whatever I wore down with dem will likely have recovered by the time I can use it again, so it ultimately does nothing. I have seen one person with a ridiculously effective DEM, I'm not quite sure how he did it, I'll have to ask and see if he'll be willing to tell me, though I'm betting I'll replicate the build exactly and be left to wonder why the EFF it works so good for him and does nothing for me, lol.
even if i like that concept and it would have been more inline with what we see in the serie ( indeed their hull aren't instantly regenerate after typing a button, there is no cross hull heal either, the only things that is good is extend shield ),this can not be implemented in the game if you have power like beam overload, double tap bo build ans escort capacble to kill you in 1 pass by a single volley.
when you have lost all your shield a big part of your hull after a well buffed BO3 you will not survive long against escort if you don't have something that don't regenerate you faster than the firepower you will face after.
some people complained about the decloacking double tap bo romulan, but here, with that kinds of mechanism they will be the king.
for sure.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Since engineering is mostly heals, which I am fine with, maybe most of those heals should be self only with only engineering team and extend shields able to be sent to others. This would eliminate much of the cross healing that makes escorts invincible while allowing them to tear through other ships and would restore the need for a cruiser to actually tank because it would have the heals to keep itself alive but would not be able to send all those heals over to an escort to let it tank. Same for hazard emitters, make that self only too, and I think we'd have ourselves a winner.
that is also overpowered, because it is, indeed, giving warp plasma a BO power hiding within it, namely, tractor beam. you will combined the hull proc of warp plasma + it slow effect, and when you try to counter it with the right power you still have to face a slow effect equivalent to a tractor beam for 15 sec?
this is not serious?
I honestly have no idea what you mean. Tractor beams in this game don't actually slow, they pretty much stop you dead or do nothing, additionally, eject warp plasma is supposed to slow significantly/stop you dead, so I am not proposing that it gain another ability, I'm saying it needs to function as intended and not be so easy to clear. When one can simply pop hazard emitters or get hazard emitters from someone else and fly out of the plasma, the power is laughable. It's hard enough for big lumbering cruisers to catch someone in the plasma anyway because they have such TRIBBLE maneuverability, but once they catch something, more than half the time it flies right on out because of hazards or attack pattern omega's laugh at all crowd control ability. And since both aceton beam and eject warp plasma are both cleared by hazards, an ability most everyone is carrying and using regularly, it is regularly and easily knocked off.
completely agree on that one.
will cryptic will agree to nerf escort?:rolleyes:
Frankly, it needs to be done, if cryptic doesn't want endless power creep, then they need to start pulling some things down a bit since they refuse to buff up other things to compensate.
.
if you have a build around it, this power do have theeth! i have fight some build that where using attack pattern beta + DEM+ FBP and BFAW, if you are not carreful, even your rsp won't save you, i don't want to think what those things would do with elachi weapons!
dem is not a tactical power on it own, that not is intended purpose, but well configured it it deadly ( especially with marion france dulmur and kcb proc )
Another point in this regard, you really have to BUILD INTO IT for science and engineering attack/crowd control powers to be remotely useful, but escort/tactical powers are pretty much point and shoot, easy peasy, no agonizing over which consoles to equip and next to no worry over how your powers interact with eachother, it's engineering and science with all the connected cool downs and "needed doffs" to make their abilities effective.
Can you imagine needing doffs for tactical to be effective? It would mean Eng and sci heavy ships have EVEN MORE competition for the 5 doff slots than they already do.
Tac does damage. Tac less brains. The more Tac, the more damagey, therefore we are strong.
The flipside of this is that tac-heavy ships have very few options to augment their abilities. Its just the same few doffs that are in demand. And, oh look, cruisers and sci need them too.
That's the hard part. A nerf to "escorts" always ends up hurting cruisers and sci more BECAUSE what the escort has is basically what the cruisers and sci are using to hang on to the metagame. Nerf Sci particle skills to balance tac buffing versus removing options, and hear the sci/carrier pilots whinging. Nerf DHCs, and all that does is battlecruisers become even worse than normal cruisers, while escorts stay ahead and cruisers stay exactly where they are.
On the flipside, any buff to help cruisers and sci, end up buffing escorts. For example, I proposed a buff to Omega shields, so that sci and cruisers have another means of escaping snares and holds and keeping up with the escorts. Guess what? That makes escorts turn and move hell faster, too!
Basically, there is too much choice in this game. It is an ideal that is killing you softly. The fact you have the option to stack to the high heavens makes the game have to be balanced around balls-out stacking. This makes hybrids are not viable, variety not viable, and only the favored career is viable in all ship types.
But the ship has sailed on this one, simply because the very issue with Star Trek Online's wish to cater to everyone, is that it ends up catering to 1 only. And short of completely overhauling the game, I don't see an end to it.
So until then, I'm just going to chug along in my dreadnought which is the Federation's only choice that combines a cruiser and DHCs, and wears the skin of my favorite Star Trek ship.
/rant over
Back to speculating. I'd reckon this "Federation Battlecruiser" rumor is in fact the 3rd Galaxy variant. Which would be interesting, as this would effectively mean we Galaxy pilots will be paying ZEN to upgrade our ship (and then followed by a FSM to make it Fleet).
If this were true, frankly, I'm just too jaded with whinging about getting gouged, and not getting an upgrade at all. At least this FBC will be account-wide an unlock, and coming after the Romulans had their fun, will be as OP as all get out.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Can you imagine needing doffs for tactical to be effective? It would mean Eng and sci heavy ships have EVEN MORE competition for the 5 doff slots than they already do.
Tac does damage. Tac less brains. The more Tac, the more damagey, therefore we are strong.
The flipside of this is that tac-heavy ships have very few options to augment their abilities. Its just the same few doffs that are in demand. And, oh look, cruisers and sci need them too.
That's the hard part. A nerf to "escorts" always ends up hurting cruisers and sci more BECAUSE what the escort has is basically what the cruisers and sci are using to hang on to the metagame. Nerf Sci particle skills to balance tac buffing versus removing options, and hear the sci/carrier pilots whinging. Nerf DHCs, and all that does is battlecruisers become even worse than normal cruisers, while escorts stay ahead and cruisers stay exactly where they are.
On the flipside, any buff to help cruisers and sci, end up buffing escorts. For example, I proposed a buff to Omega shields, so that sci and cruisers have another means of escaping snares and holds and keeping up with the escorts. Guess what? That makes escorts turn and move hell faster, too!
Basically, there is too much choice in this game. It is an ideal that is killing you softly. The fact you have the option to stack to the high heavens makes the game have to be balanced around balls-out stacking. This makes hybrids are not viable, variety not viable, and only the favored career is viable in all ship types.
But the ship has sailed on this one, simply because the very issue with Star Trek Online's wish to cater to everyone, is that it ends up catering to 1 only. And short of completely overhauling the game, I don't see an end to it.
So until then, I'm just going to chug along in my dreadnought which is the Federation's only choice that combines a cruiser and DHCs, and wears the skin of my favorite Star Trek ship.
/rant over
This is what I was saying in a thread where they were suggesting a buff to torpedoes but one would have a limited supply of which cruisers would have the advantage of carrying more. Well... if you buff torp damage, escorts will just blow everything to hell more quickly so that they likely won't run out of torps before finishing a match/mission anyway. making cruisers be a ship that can only win a drawn out battle doesn't work, every ship has enough healing/cross healing that damage over time or "constant pressure" damage does next to nothing, it's only spikes that get the job done.
I'm still in favor of reworking weapon mechanics so that they all do the same damage but the bigger the arc, the higher the energy cost E.G. beam arrays have dual cannon damage but draw 12 power you're powering a massive array while dual cannons pull less power as they are two very focused emitters.
Or balancing all weapons to do the same damage, but the more focused the arc, the more damage it does directly to hull so they have a bonus once you've gotten through shields, maybe even with a modest bonus to shield penetration based on arc (narrow arc=more penetration). Not so much penetration that sci ships/bops are screwed, but enough to keep dual/dual heavy cannons a desirable option.
Can you imagine needing doffs for tactical to be effective? It would mean Eng and sci heavy ships have EVEN MORE competition for the 5 doff slots than they already do.
Tac does damage. Tac less brains. The more Tac, the more damagey, therefore we are strong.
The flipside of this is that tac-heavy ships have very few options to augment their abilities. Its just the same few doffs that are in demand. And, oh look, cruisers and sci need them too.
That's the hard part. A nerf to "escorts" always ends up hurting cruisers and sci more BECAUSE what the escort has is basically what the cruisers and sci are using to hang on to the metagame. Nerf Sci particle skills to balance tac buffing versus removing options, and hear the sci/carrier pilots whinging. Nerf DHCs, and all that does is battlecruisers become even worse than normal cruisers, while escorts stay ahead and cruisers stay exactly where they are.
On the flipside, any buff to help cruisers and sci, end up buffing escorts. For example, I proposed a buff to Omega shields, so that sci and cruisers have another means of escaping snares and holds and keeping up with the escorts. Guess what? That makes escorts turn and move hell faster, too!
Basically, there is too much choice in this game. It is an ideal that is killing you softly. The fact you have the option to stack to the high heavens makes the game have to be balanced around balls-out stacking. This makes hybrids are not viable, variety not viable, and only the favored career is viable in all ship types.
But the ship has sailed on this one, simply because the very issue with Star Trek Online's wish to cater to everyone, is that it ends up catering to 1 only. And short of completely overhauling the game, I don't see an end to it.
So until then, I'm just going to chug along in my dreadnought which is the Federation's only choice that combines a cruiser and DHCs, and wears the skin of my favorite Star Trek ship.
/rant over
Back to speculating. I'd reckon this "Federation Battlecruiser" rumor is in fact the 3rd Galaxy variant. Which would be interesting, as this would effectively mean we Galaxy pilots will be paying ZEN to upgrade our ship (and then followed by a FSM to make it Fleet).
If this were true, frankly, I'm just too jaded with whinging about getting gouged, and not getting an upgrade at all. At least this FBC will be account-wide an unlock, and coming after the Romulans had their fun, will be as OP as all get out.
You have some good points and i mostly agree with you.
Here are some ideas that would help IMO:
Turn general tactical consoles (like beam weapon or cannon weapon consoles) into engineering consoles.
Give Science and Engineering Team the same "shield distributing" ability like Tactical team (while giving TT some compensation, which is NOT mandatory for everyone). Discussed here: LINK
Make Beam Weapons and torpedo fireing arc dependend on the ships turn rate, the lower the ships turn rate the bigger the fireing arc.
Give bigger ships more basic power (for subsystems).
Allow Cruisers (and science ships at a certain degree) a higher subsystem power setting. (Cruisers of different factions could also allow different max power setting as well as. Bigger cruiser = higher possible power setting. (you get the idea.)
About that possible Galaxy Battlecruiser, i think Cryptic let me wait for so long for a good GCS to fly, i would be glad to pay a few ZEN to finally have a viable and fun to fly GCS finally.
Let's hope it is a GCS and not some of Cryptics abominable ship designs...
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
You have some good points and i mostly agree with you.
Here are some ideas that would help IMO:
Turn general tactical consoles (like beam weapon or cannon weapon consoles) into engineering consoles.
Give Science and Engineering Team the same "shield distributing" ability like Tactical team (while giving TT some compensation, which is NOT mandatory for everyone). Discussed here: LINK
Make Beam Weapons and torpedo fireing arc dependend on the ships turn rate, the lower the ships turn rate the bigger the fireing arc.
Give bigger ships more basic power (for subsystems).
Allow Cruisers (and science ships at a certain degree) a higher subsystem power setting. (Cruisers of different factions could also allow different max power setting as well as. Bigger cruiser = higher possible power setting. (you get the idea.)
About that possible Galaxy Battlecruiser, i think Cryptic let me wait for so long for a good GCS to fly, i would be glad to pay a few ZEN to finally have a viable and fun to fly GCS finally.
Let's hope it is a GCS and not some of Cryptics abominable ship designs...
I never thought about moving the generic damage consoles to engineering... Interesting idea, but also, a dangerous one because suddenly every single eng console in existence gets devalued overnight. And do we really want more damage with that serving of spike? I'd rather if Cryptic made Advanced and ELite fleet tac consoles out of the generics that offer both an energy weapon and a projectile weapon bonus (or vice versa), and a third effect that reduces weapon drain, increases firing arc, or increases accuracy.
Agree with the rest.
ESPECIALLY on this FBC being able to use the Galaxy skin. Even if it can't use the dreadnought cruiser skin; I'd (reluctantly) give up a third nacelle for a viable Galaxy chassis!!
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Another point in this regard, you really have to BUILD INTO IT for science and engineering attack/crowd control powers to be remotely useful, but escort/tactical powers are pretty much point and shoot, easy peasy, no agonizing over which consoles to equip and next to no worry over how your powers interact with eachother, it's engineering and science with all the connected cool downs and "needed doffs" to make their abilities effective.
This is what I was saying in a thread where they were suggesting a buff to torpedoes but one would have a limited supply of which cruisers would have the advantage of carrying more. Well... if you buff torp damage, escorts will just blow everything to hell more quickly so that they likely won't run out of torps before finishing a match/mission anyway. making cruisers be a ship that can only win a drawn out battle doesn't work, every ship has enough healing/cross healing that damage over time or "constant pressure" damage does next to nothing, it's only spikes that get the job done.
I'm still in favor of reworking weapon mechanics so that they all do the same damage but the bigger the arc, the higher the energy cost E.G. beam arrays have dual cannon damage but draw 12 power you're powering a massive array while dual cannons pull less power as they are two very focused emitters.
Or balancing all weapons to do the same damage, but the more focused the arc, the more damage it does directly to hull so they have a bonus once you've gotten through shields, maybe even with a modest bonus to shield penetration based on arc (narrow arc=more penetration). Not so much penetration that sci ships/bops are screwed, but enough to keep dual/dual heavy cannons a desirable option.
Problem with making torps' have limited ammo is how much do you limit it to? In PvP, the fight might last from 30 seconds to 2-3 minutes, three minutes of shooting photon torps, nonstop (highly unlikely event) uses 30 torps. Unless you limit it to about 10 torps, no one will see a difference. Also, what happens if a ship is destroyed and respawned? Does it get a full load again?
I never thought about moving the generic damage consoles to engineering... Interesting idea, but also, a dangerous one because suddenly every single eng console in existence gets devalued overnight. And do we really want more damage with that serving of spike? I'd rather if Cryptic made Advanced and ELite fleet tac consoles out of the generics that offer both an energy weapon and a projectile weapon bonus (or vice versa), and a third effect that reduces weapon drain, increases firing arc, or increases accuracy.
Agree with the rest.
As far as devaluation of normal engineering consoles goes, I really wouldn't worry about it too much. I think loading a ships engineering console slots with generic weapons consoles (especially if they enacted diminished returns like they have done for most other non tactical consoles) will diminish the overall effectiveness of the ship. I can see one or two consoles for a ship with four or five slots, but otherwise I wouldn't even consider using one. The Exploration cruiser (and Oddy Ops cruiser), with its five engineering slots would be the biggest benefactor of this change.
I think escorts loading them up would have real problems maintaining effectiveness.
I never thought about moving the generic damage consoles to engineering... Interesting idea, but also, a dangerous one because suddenly every single eng console in existence gets devalued overnight. And do we really want more damage with that serving of spike? I'd rather if Cryptic made Advanced and ELite fleet tac consoles out of the generics that offer both an energy weapon and a projectile weapon bonus (or vice versa), and a third effect that reduces weapon drain, increases firing arc, or increases accuracy.
Agree with the rest.
ESPECIALLY on this FBC being able to use the Galaxy skin. Even if it can't use the dreadnought cruiser skin; I'd (reluctantly) give up a third nacelle for a viable Galaxy chassis!!
Heck i would HATE cryptic if they wouldn't give us the choice to use the third nacelle or not (i would choose NOT to, but others would).
As whamhammer1 said, a escort using such consoles would be a killable as a Ferengi NPC trader .
They would loose a LOT of survivability for a little bit more damage, but other ships like the GCS or any other engineering heavy ship would really benefit from it PLUS using those consoles would finally make sense.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I wouldn't mind that except then we would be taking things away from science, which could use some help too. Alternatively they could make all ensign powers universal, everyone aboard a starship should have at least basic training in all departments even if they are specialized engineers, scientists, or tactical officers, so it would make sense. However, this would be the equivalent of making all ensigns universal, and would remove the benefit of ships with universal ensigns, so those would have to be reworked as well, so that's doubtful to be implemented.
unlike engeneering and to a degree tactical,science got enought choice in ensign power, maybe too much so it would not be a big deal for them.
since these would be transfert to engi, they will still have acces to it, so it is not like if we take them away from them.
it could be even better for them, because right now they really must do a choice for ensign level, having those power available on an other proffesion could solve some of those dilema.
and tactical escort would greatly lost in survivability if they choose to equiped with these power, over the EPTS one.
that being said, i am not "stuck" on that idea and will take any other suggestion that make sense.
heck even the dotdrunkimshoot idea with auxtobat in ensign is sufficient enought in my opinion.
DEM is entirely a "tactical" or "offensive" power, so that is most certainly its intended purpose. I have tried my darndest to make DEM work and it has never done anything for me, that or if I can get it to do some decent damage, the cool on it is so long that whatever I wore down with dem will likely have recovered by the time I can use it again, so it ultimately does nothing. I have seen one person with a ridiculously effective DEM, I'm not quite sure how he did it, I'll have to ask and see if he'll be willing to tell me, though I'm betting I'll replicate the build exactly and be left to wonder why the EFF it works so good for him and does nothing for me, lol.
yes, dem is tactical in the sense that it is meant to kill and not heal, however what i meant by it to not be tactical is that it is not supposed to be "as" effective as a real tactical power proffession.
for dem i bielieve you haven't try hard enought, go to kerrat they are people there that have a build around it, and if you are not carrefull, you are dead with them, star cruiser ,odyssey or scimitar is all the same, rsp or not.
the secret of the build? simple when you think about it.
they use auxtobat build with attack pattern delta + bfaw + dem +marion +feedbackpulse.
attack pattern delta give a damage resitance debuff to any enemy attacking your ship ( so it can work again multiple enemy ), bfaw with the full power resistance of marion combine with the shield penetration of dem + feedbackpulse that have 50% shield penetration.
i hope you are beguining to anderstand what that can do.
and you known what, the funny things is that a build like that can be use on a galaxy retrofit.
bfaw work again multiple target, attackpattern delta work again multiple target, feedbackpulse work again multiple target. you see the pattern?
I honestly have no idea what you mean. Tractor beams in this game don't actually slow, they pretty much stop you dead or do nothing
for tractor beam to stop you dead, you have to go at slow speed, or he will only slow you, it is also easily resist with an engine batterie, evasive maneuver, deutherium burn, epte power, so in most case even if it can stop you, it generally don't last long with good player with a good build, and i am not even talking about power that can shrug him off completely because what i want to show you is that it only generally end to a slow.
additionally, eject warp plasma is supposed to slow significantly/stop you dead, so I am not proposing that it gain another ability
but what you propose do exactly that, think about it more carefully, you have the hull proc and slow effect of warp plasma, this can be cleared by hazard, ok cool, but then the player will still be slow for 15 second decrisivly, so if he want to get rid of that effect he will have to use an other abilitie like evasive maneuver for example.
so he will basically use 2 abilities to clear 1 of your power, you don't see the imbalance here?
warp plasma will become a must have power, and i can predict beautifull fight in warp plasma cloud all day long.
I'm saying it needs to function as intended and not be so easy to clear
it is funtioning as intended.
this power is not meant to be unclearable! or hardly clearable.
it also have other use as just stop you enemy, it can be use as a protective shield for mines, pet, targetable torpedo, all kind of spam. these are all the function of warp plasma.
give it the abiliti you describe and it will be a must have power just like the leech console nowaday.
When one can simply pop hazard emitters or get hazard emitters from someone else and fly out of the plasma, the power is laughable. It's hard enough for big lumbering cruisers to catch someone in the plasma anyway because they have such TRIBBLE maneuverability, but once they catch something, more than half the time it flies right on out because of hazards or attack pattern omega's laugh at all crowd control ability. And since both aceton beam and eject warp plasma are both cleared by hazards, an ability most everyone is carrying and using regularly, it is regularly and easily knocked off.
you use an abilitie, he use a counter, that the way it work, this counter is a choice in a build, not everybody use hazard emitter, and everybody would prefer to use it when they want to and not when you force them to.
that like a game of chest, you have to known when to use or not use your abilities.
anyway you can't seriously ask for a power with no counter, just because you are afraid that maybe someone in the team will counter it.
As whamhammer1 said, a escort using such consoles would be a killable as a Ferengi NPC trader .
They would loose a LOT of survivability for a little bit more damage, but other ships like the GCS or any other engineering heavy ship would really benefit from it PLUS using those consoles would finally make sense.
sorry but, you are dreaming here, like a already said before, the best escort player don't use hull plating console, these are mostly useless.
mt'poney one of the best pvper don't use them and i wish you good luck to kill him in a 1vs1 and even in a 1vs3.
for these player it will only result in additional firepower without touching there survivability.
but for the other player, you are going to ask me?
for the other who relie on hull plating console to survive they were never a threat in the first place....sorry, maybe blunt, but true.
Problem with making torps' have limited ammo is how much do you limit it to? In PvP, the fight might last from 30 seconds to 2-3 minutes, three minutes of shooting photon torps, nonstop (highly unlikely event) uses 30 torps. Unless you limit it to about 10 torps, no one will see a difference. Also, what happens if a ship is destroyed and respawned? Does it get a full load again?
I don't know how they wanted it done, it wasn't my idea, lol. And I think it was intended to count every torp in a spread/volley so if you use torp spread 3 and launch off 40 torps, those 40 come all count against your torpedo complement. But in cannon, I don't think there was a significant enough difference in the number of torps the defiant could carry vs a sovereign class, for example, for them to justify cruisers having thousands of torps and a defiant only having a couple hundred. And I think that they may have wanted you to return to starbase to purchase more torpedoes and have them be cheap like batteries or whatever. I'm not a big fan of consumable ammo in videogames though, like archers in mmo's who carry around a log cabin worth of wood in the form of thousands arrows... super realistic >> lol, just make a magic quiver that replenishes arrows or a bow that makes an arrow every time you pull the string.
I do think torps could use a buff, but any notion that such a buff would not still mostly benefit escorts is silly.
Anyway, is there a new galaxy variant supposedly in the works or are they looking at reworking the galaxy? I can only imagine a new variant would have to be science heavy if you consider the normal variant to be the engineer version, the dread version the tactical one, and then there could be a science one... four science consols, 3 eng, two tac and move the ensign over to science. lol. Lame, but yeah.
I still think that "reworking" the galaxy is the wrong way to go to make it a viable ship. They should be reworking cruisers/engineering (and science too) to make those ships more viable with the boff seating and console slots they have. If the other team (sci and eng) powers were reworked so that tac team isn't the gold standard of tanking, then cruisers and sci ships with only two tactical powers wouldn't be quite so bad off. If beams were reworked to spike harder instead of tickle over time, if crowd control/debuff abilities weren't so easy to shrug off/counter. Aceton beam wrecks energy damage, that's an excellent power to level the playing field between a cruiser and an escort, but the escort hazard emitts itself, and bam, free and clear. Perhaps if most healing abilities were self only, then cruisers would be needed to tank because they couldn't send all their heals to keep the escort alive so it can tank and blow through everything. If aux to structural, hazard emitters, most everything except team powers (it is logical to be able to beam a team over to another ship to assist) and extend shields were limited to self only, I think it would be helpful in making cruisers a more necessary tank. Maybe... not absolutely sure, but maybe. And if extend shields and transfer shield strength were allowed to be cross heals, perhaps it would be good to give them a penalty to the providing ship. When a ship extends their shields, it strains their systems, the shields can't take as much damage, so maybe the target ship gets a boost, but the aiding ship takes a hit to regeneration or capacity or resistance or their shields have extra bleed through. Maybe transfer shield strength should pull points out of your shields and transfer them to someone else so that it is a re-allocation and not "Magic shields out of nowhere."e.g. 4k shields from each facing is pulled from your shields and transferred to your target's shields. I think it would make the game a bit more like it was in the show and might actually do something about these invincible escorts with zombie healers and restore some epic to cruisers and sci vessels.
sorry but, you are dreaming here, like a already said before, the best escort player don't use hull plating console, these are mostly useless.
mt'poney one of the best pvper don't use them and i wish you good luck to kill him in a 1vs1 and even in a 1vs3.
for these player it will only result in additional firepower without touching there survivability.
but for the other player, you are going to ask me?
for the other who relie on hull plating console to survive they were never a threat in the first place....sorry, maybe blunt, but true.
No worry, i don't feel personally insulted by your information. lol.
I don't do PvP, nor i am at least interested in it. I was just assuming that most escort jockeys would use their engineering consoles for armor.
So what would you do to make Cruisers more "even"?
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
unlike engeneering and to a degree tactical,science got enought choice in ensign power, maybe too much so it would not be a big deal for them.
since these would be transfert to engi, they will still have acces to it, so it is not like if we take them away from them.
it could be even better for them, because right now they really must do a choice for ensign level, having those power available on an other proffesion could solve some of those dilema.
and tactical escort would greatly lost in survivability if they choose to equiped with these power, over the EPTS one.
that being said, i am not "stuck" on that idea and will take any other suggestion that make sense.
heck even the dotdrunkimshoot idea with auxtobat in ensign is sufficient enought in my opinion.
Hmm, well I'm not entirely against the idea of taking polarize hull and tractor and moving it to eng, science does have a ridiculous amount of ensign level abilities available to it, however, I am sure that would "mess with the way their boff auto-power selector" works or whatever so they would rather add new powers than move things from one department to another.
yes, dem is tactical in the sense that it is meant to kill and not heal, however what i meant by it to not be tactical is that it is not supposed to be "as" effective as a real tactical power proffession.
for dem i bielieve you haven't try hard enought, go to kerrat they are people there that have a build around it, and if you are not carrefull, you are dead with them, star cruiser ,odyssey or scimitar is all the same, rsp or not.
the secret of the build? simple when you think about it.
they use auxtobat build with attack pattern delta + bfaw + dem +marion +feedbackpulse.
attack pattern delta give a damage resitance debuff to any enemy attacking your ship ( so it can work again multiple enemy ), bfaw with the full power resistance of marion combine with the shield penetration of dem + feedbackpulse that have 50% shield penetration.
i hope you are beguining to anderstand what that can do.
and you known what, the funny things is that a build like that can be use on a galaxy retrofit.
bfaw work again multiple target, attackpattern delta work again multiple target, feedbackpulse work again multiple target. you see the pattern?
So you're telling me that to make directed energy modulation effective, it requires four special boffs? Three technicians for the aux to bat, plus the super expensive marion doff? And then it must be paired with two copies of aux to bat for the technician doffs as well as feedback pulse? That's ridiculous, tactical doesn't require that much convolution to produce damage. And how does feedback pulse help when your aux is wrecked? Must need epic particle generators. So you have to spec into that as well... lol.
for tractor beam to stop you dead, you have to go at slow speed, or he will only slow you, it is also easily resist with an engine batterie, evasive maneuver, deutherium burn, epte power, so in most case even if it can stop you, it generally don't last long with good player with a good build, and i am not even talking about power that can shrug him off completely because what i want to show you is that it only generally end to a slow.
Tractors have never not stopped my dead without using evasive or emergency power to engines or an engine battery or omega's laugh at all crowd control to get out of it, maybe you fly escorts and not big honking cruisers that don't move fast at all.
but what you propose do exactly that, think about it more carefully, you have the hull proc and slow effect of warp plasma, this can be cleared by hazard, ok cool, but then the player will still be slow for 15 second decrisivly, so if he want to get rid of that effect he will have to use an other abilitie like evasive maneuver for example.
so he will basically use 2 abilities to clear 1 of your power, you don't see the imbalance here?
warp plasma will become a must have power, and i can predict beautifull fight in warp plasma cloud all day long.
No, I don't see a problem with that, considering I have to use up all my heals just to counter the damage coming in from an alpha escort, let him have to burn hazards and evasive to help counter my warp plasma.
Besides, I said hazards or whatever ability could clear the debuff over time, so you're not at a crawl for 15 seconds waiting for it to clear, it gets better and better over 15 seconds, so you aren't even suffering from the full debuff that whole time, so I don't see it as being quite so crippling as you claim, but rather finally useful and not effortlessly shrugged off.
it is funtioning as intended.
this power is not meant to be unclearable! or hardly clearable.
it also have other use as just stop you enemy, it can be use as a protective shield for mines, pet, targetable torpedo, all kind of spam. these are all the function of warp plasma.
give it the abiliti you describe and it will be a must have power just like the leech console nowaday.
It's practically a waste of a heal slot at this point for cruisers because eject warp plasma is so easily shrugged off, and "mine shield" and "kill enemy fighters" is barely useful considering you normally fly into mines, and warp plasma is behind you, and fighters don't do all that much damage anyway pecking at you from all sides like a bunch of idiots.
And yes, if warp plasma works the way I say, it will actually be useful and more people will use it, shocker. And then maybe not everyone would be crying out for MOAR TAC! everyone wants more tac boff seating, everyone wants more tactical consoles, clearly the game is imbalanced toward tac and you are just sitting here complaining that tac won't rule the world if eng and sci powers actually start doing something. And eng and sci powers should be lethal too, the role of cruisers and sci vessels should not simply be to support the escorts. Escorts should not be the star of the show with crusiers and sci vessels as backup dancers. They should all be equally lethal in their own ways.
you use an abilitie, he use a counter, that the way it work, this counter is a choice in a build, not everybody use hazard emitter, and everybody would prefer to use it when they want to and not when you force them to.
that like a game of chest, you have to known when to use or not use your abilities.
anyway you can't seriously ask for a power with no counter, just because you are afraid that maybe someone in the team will counter it.
I'm not asking for these powers to have "no counter" I am saying they shouldn't be so easily countered. Right now, most sci and eng attack/crowd control powers are so easily countered that they barely do anything, they are largely a mild inconvenience or at worst, annoying. Counters shouldn't just be a "magic clear" they should work over time, just like heals should work over time. Nobody likes this yoyo of you get someone down to 1% hull only to have them jump up to 100% hull and 100% shields. Switching things to a heal over time and clear over time may require slight tweaking to improve durability, but frankly, I've never been fond of the two seconds from start of attack till explosion. I would also like it if they would introduce a mechanic that boosts ship defense/resistance based on the number of ships attacking you, this would allow them to balance the game both for single combat and group combat so that one does not end up with one on one combat where both ships are invincible because they are built to withstand the assault of five ships.
...
you use an abilitie, he use a counter, that the way it work, this counter is a choice in a build, not everybody use hazard emitter, and everybody would prefer to use it when they want to and not when you force them to.
that like a game of chest, you have to known when to use or not use your abilities.
anyway you can't seriously ask for a power with no counter, just because you are afraid that maybe someone in the team will counter it.
That would apply if ther where only one counter, but APO counters so many things it's not even funny. Every Escort uses it, and every escort can escape a Warp plasma cloud or a tractor beam without any problem at all.
APO is too powerful since it combines Hazard emitters AND polarize hull just for the sake of making escorts immune to science ships and cruisers without much efford. (let's not forget that APO even buffs the escorts damage, it almost rediculus)
In my opinion AOP and Tactical team make Escorts too OP.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I drive escorts too, but whatever that is, I don't use it. Sounds like I can make use of it with my Dreadnought too.
Lol, sorry i meant APO (attack pattern omega)
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Comments
Dammit you, that's a great point. Seeing people flying Starfleet ships is getting rarer. Mainly Oddys, the occasional Galaxy Dreadnought, and nubs flying connies or miranda variants. I still see MVAEs here and there.
All of the ships I have are Fed ships, either freebies from levelling, or Mirror ships. all the cool lockbox stuff is way out of my EC range. Wouldn't mind a Monbosh, though, heard good things about it, and I think it looks neat, and the JHAS because I'm a Tac and could use a badass escort.
I still have my T4 Galaxy, though, and I wanna take it out more, but yeah, old and weak, and I don't have the spare cash to get the Fleet or C-Store galaxies... Hell, my fleet's shipyards are Tier 1 at best. *sigh*
I do hope that the changes they make to the Galaxy and it's cousins are retroactive. I don't wanna re-buy my Dreadnought. Or have to buy another one.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
I think you and I are on the same side
Thank you sir
HAHA totally agree its becoming something else. I do see a few other ships that are trek design here and there. But you are spot on there is less and less of the ships we saw in the shows and more lock box ships parked outside esd every week.
Dunno for the life of me can't get my fed toon out of his Defiant retrofit fleet and keep playing around in G-X but would be nice if the intrepid i owned got updated and ofcourse i'd love to see the galaxy fleet retrofit switched to a different setup so it can be worth taking out of space dock.
http://i.imgur.com/ZMM3ATi.jpg
Could this "Battle Cruiser" possibly be a new Galaxy variant?
That's why i have said they should do BOTH.
But the GCS needs to be done first, to give her the place she belongs to and THEN Starfleet Crusiers need to be reworked.
There is no point in reworking all Starfleet cruisers if the GCS ends up being the most passive of them again.
No, the GCS is NOT supposed to be so "weak" compared to a Ambassador, Excelsior or even Nova Class.
Yet there is a Battle Crusier and Fleet Battle Crusier mentioned, which indicates a totally new ship IMO.
Let's hope it doesn't look/perform as crappy as most of Cryptics Starfleet designs do.
I wish i could go and play a KDF character without getting sick all the time, their ships are exactly what i am looking for, lol.
I am intrigued.
I do hope this comes out soon. A bad-TRIBBLE Galaxy? Yes Please! (Prays for a Gal-X update too)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
Actually, I found the photo of the new Battle Cruiser.
http://www.targetofopportunity.com/USS_Clinton.htm
expected/suspected/feared BOFF Layout:
Tactical: Lt.
Engineering: Cmdr., Lt.Cmdr.
Science: Lt., Ensign
Consoles: 4, 3, 2 (no change at all)
Personal fav:
Tactical: Lt. Cmdr.
Engineering: Cmdr., Lt.
Science: Lt. Cmdr.
Consoles: 3 (fleet 4), 3, 3
Basic turnrate: 7
Yes, two Lt. Cmdr stations.
The D'Deridex has a similar BOFF layout, but instead of a ensign science and universal, i made it one Lt. engineering. (I think since the D'D has so many other advantages a Lt. engineering should be doable.)
Honestly, I don't think that this is the problem.
I am going to step back for a moment from the fact that this is a game and our captains supposedly being the best of the best of the best of the sort that come in to save the Enterprise when IT gets in over its head, and in that role are able to overcome gear that may be far more rustic than optimal. In this case the argument is, plain and simple, the fact that people want to use their favorite ship, and I completely understand and support this.
The problem is not all those "old 23rd century" ships. The 23rd century ships are fine. The Sovereign, Intrepid, Defiant, Galaxy - they're, what, 30-50 years old? I think many can see those being upgraded, perhaps heavily so, and definitely still in service.
The problem comes when it gets older and older than that. The Ambassador seems to be what I'd consider the "oldest" ship I personally consider viable, and that's a bit of a stretch. Beyond this you're getting into ships that are around 120 years old, with ancient exterior designs, to the point where upgrading the ship is probably more expensive than getting a completely new ship, and where the basic spaceframe doesn't conform to new engineering wisdom regarding warp field efficiencies, which are the main things that shape Starfleet ships AFAIK. This can grate on the sensitivities of many people who are heavy into ship specs in canon and that sort of thing.
From what I have observed, and personally think, the biggest eye-catching problems here are the Excelsior and the Galaxy. For a very long time, the Excelsior was the best, if not ONLY, tactical cruiser available to Federation captains who didn't want to go into a lockbox to get a ship they arguably never should have had access to in the first place. The main exception to this would be the Dreadnaught, which is a polarizing ship that's pretty hard to use and arguably without the lance/cloak not much more than a slower standard Assault Cruiser. So you basically had one of the oldest ships as one of the most desirable (by a considerable margin) end game, and this is shoved in the face of a lot of people who wanted to see the Sovereign kick as much butt as it did in canon. And make no mistake about it - this is a Star Trek game, so as much as people may cry that escorts fill a metagame DPS position and too bad for the cruiser lovers, the cruisers are the most noteworthy "hero" ships and will be expected to fulfill a significant damage-dealing position.
That brings us to the Galaxy class. Many people perceive the Galaxy class as the "ultimate tank," and that's the role that it should stay at. Maybe this is the case. But a lot of us, particularly those who watched TNG growing up, saw the Galaxy differently. Specifically, while rarely called upon to act in the role, it was an incredibly powerful battleship that, for all of its faults, was not to be trifled with, even by the powerful Vor'cha or D'deridex ships of the day that were arguably designed more specifically for combat. Indeed, it acted in the role of anchor for at least one major fleet operation when establishing a blockade against Romulans attempting to get to Quo'nos. It was, however, placed in the role of "tank," which, combined with the engineering powers mess, resulted in a thread that has gone on for months on end and perhaps thousands of posts by this point.
As such, you have the Excelsior, an antique, in perhaps the most desirable cruiser position, the Sovereign, the "current" battlefield dominator as of the last TNG movies stuck in an effective (but grating) jack-of-all-trades position, and the Galaxy reduced to what many still consider the worst cruiser in the game. This takes the "old ships at end game" situation, dumps glass shards in it, and rubs it in the face of people who are very up on ship specs. It was made even worse by the lack of an option of a more modern skin to put on the Excelsior class, if the captain so chose.
Now some might say that this is not the case - look at all the people who don't care about the Klingon D7 ships! Well, although there are many hard-core Klingon fans, simple fact of the matter is that Klingon coverage, canon, soft canon and fanon alike, just isn't as dense or popular as that for Starfleet. For instance, Klingon ships likely have far fewer MSD's available on the fanon market all examining the maximum warp potential and internal layout of the D7 versus that of the original Excelsior. As such there is a lot less concern and observation as to the "proper" age and role of Klingon ships. Add to this the fact that the Klingons have much more desirable roles for most of their more modern ships, and it seems to me that the Klingons just plain didn't have nearly as much to scream about here.
So it seems to me that this and incidents such as this caused a serious grating on the suspension of disbelief. While there will always be purists who argue in great detail about ships being too old to serve, it is more grating when you are forced to use an antique to fulfill a broad role that is especially desired. This has caused a great deal of exacerbation among those who would normally ignore it.
DISCLAIMERS:
* This is all my opinion and observation.
* My current main toon used the T3 and T5 Excelsiors, and I have a rather new appreciation for the ship.
* I did however cringe when my standard AC was a less worthy battleship than the Excelsior back when I started when F2P started.
* I am in no way calling for the Excelsior to be gimped. In fact, I'm hoping a Fleet Cruiser Retrofit is in the works somewhere down the line, among other things. Merely that some weakened, but fan-loved, ships, should get reworking to be formidable combatants as well.
* Much of this seems to have softened as ships such as the Assault Cruiser Refit have been introduced, allowing for more variety, although the Galaxy-R fans are still rather piqued, as is evidenced by continued calls for the ship's reworking, and I can't say I disagree; nevertheless, it has stuck around.
Not a new disguised tac power, I think engineering has some decent offensive options already, they just need to be reworked so that eject warp plasma and aceton beam are not both completely instantly cleared by hazard emitters or shrugged off by attack pattern omega, boarding party shouldn't be magically, completely cleared by tac team since pretty much everyone has that back to back, and directed energy modulation barely does anything, especially since it is based on weapon attack and weapon power setting. If an escort can equip DEM with dual heavy cannons and full power to weapons, it will hit harder than a cruiser with DEM and beams and full power to weapons. Granted escorts are limited from taking DEM3, but still.
I wouldn't mind that except then we would be taking things away from science, which could use some help too. Alternatively they could make all ensign powers universal, everyone aboard a starship should have at least basic training in all departments even if they are specialized engineers, scientists, or tactical officers, so it would make sense. However, this would be the equivalent of making all ensigns universal, and would remove the benefit of ships with universal ensigns, so those would have to be reworked as well, so that's doubtful to be implemented.
DEM is entirely a "tactical" or "offensive" power, so that is most certainly its intended purpose. I have tried my darndest to make DEM work and it has never done anything for me, that or if I can get it to do some decent damage, the cool on it is so long that whatever I wore down with dem will likely have recovered by the time I can use it again, so it ultimately does nothing. I have seen one person with a ridiculously effective DEM, I'm not quite sure how he did it, I'll have to ask and see if he'll be willing to tell me, though I'm betting I'll replicate the build exactly and be left to wonder why the EFF it works so good for him and does nothing for me, lol.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Since engineering is mostly heals, which I am fine with, maybe most of those heals should be self only with only engineering team and extend shields able to be sent to others. This would eliminate much of the cross healing that makes escorts invincible while allowing them to tear through other ships and would restore the need for a cruiser to actually tank because it would have the heals to keep itself alive but would not be able to send all those heals over to an escort to let it tank. Same for hazard emitters, make that self only too, and I think we'd have ourselves a winner.
I honestly have no idea what you mean. Tractor beams in this game don't actually slow, they pretty much stop you dead or do nothing, additionally, eject warp plasma is supposed to slow significantly/stop you dead, so I am not proposing that it gain another ability, I'm saying it needs to function as intended and not be so easy to clear. When one can simply pop hazard emitters or get hazard emitters from someone else and fly out of the plasma, the power is laughable. It's hard enough for big lumbering cruisers to catch someone in the plasma anyway because they have such TRIBBLE maneuverability, but once they catch something, more than half the time it flies right on out because of hazards or attack pattern omega's laugh at all crowd control ability. And since both aceton beam and eject warp plasma are both cleared by hazards, an ability most everyone is carrying and using regularly, it is regularly and easily knocked off.
Frankly, it needs to be done, if cryptic doesn't want endless power creep, then they need to start pulling some things down a bit since they refuse to buff up other things to compensate.
Another point in this regard, you really have to BUILD INTO IT for science and engineering attack/crowd control powers to be remotely useful, but escort/tactical powers are pretty much point and shoot, easy peasy, no agonizing over which consoles to equip and next to no worry over how your powers interact with eachother, it's engineering and science with all the connected cool downs and "needed doffs" to make their abilities effective.
Tac does damage. Tac less brains. The more Tac, the more damagey, therefore we are strong.
The flipside of this is that tac-heavy ships have very few options to augment their abilities. Its just the same few doffs that are in demand. And, oh look, cruisers and sci need them too.
That's the hard part. A nerf to "escorts" always ends up hurting cruisers and sci more BECAUSE what the escort has is basically what the cruisers and sci are using to hang on to the metagame. Nerf Sci particle skills to balance tac buffing versus removing options, and hear the sci/carrier pilots whinging. Nerf DHCs, and all that does is battlecruisers become even worse than normal cruisers, while escorts stay ahead and cruisers stay exactly where they are.
On the flipside, any buff to help cruisers and sci, end up buffing escorts. For example, I proposed a buff to Omega shields, so that sci and cruisers have another means of escaping snares and holds and keeping up with the escorts. Guess what? That makes escorts turn and move hell faster, too!
Basically, there is too much choice in this game. It is an ideal that is killing you softly. The fact you have the option to stack to the high heavens makes the game have to be balanced around balls-out stacking. This makes hybrids are not viable, variety not viable, and only the favored career is viable in all ship types.
But the ship has sailed on this one, simply because the very issue with Star Trek Online's wish to cater to everyone, is that it ends up catering to 1 only. And short of completely overhauling the game, I don't see an end to it.
So until then, I'm just going to chug along in my dreadnought which is the Federation's only choice that combines a cruiser and DHCs, and wears the skin of my favorite Star Trek ship.
/rant over
Back to speculating. I'd reckon this "Federation Battlecruiser" rumor is in fact the 3rd Galaxy variant. Which would be interesting, as this would effectively mean we Galaxy pilots will be paying ZEN to upgrade our ship (and then followed by a FSM to make it Fleet).
If this were true, frankly, I'm just too jaded with whinging about getting gouged, and not getting an upgrade at all. At least this FBC will be account-wide an unlock, and coming after the Romulans had their fun, will be as OP as all get out.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
This is what I was saying in a thread where they were suggesting a buff to torpedoes but one would have a limited supply of which cruisers would have the advantage of carrying more. Well... if you buff torp damage, escorts will just blow everything to hell more quickly so that they likely won't run out of torps before finishing a match/mission anyway. making cruisers be a ship that can only win a drawn out battle doesn't work, every ship has enough healing/cross healing that damage over time or "constant pressure" damage does next to nothing, it's only spikes that get the job done.
I'm still in favor of reworking weapon mechanics so that they all do the same damage but the bigger the arc, the higher the energy cost E.G. beam arrays have dual cannon damage but draw 12 power you're powering a massive array while dual cannons pull less power as they are two very focused emitters.
Or balancing all weapons to do the same damage, but the more focused the arc, the more damage it does directly to hull so they have a bonus once you've gotten through shields, maybe even with a modest bonus to shield penetration based on arc (narrow arc=more penetration). Not so much penetration that sci ships/bops are screwed, but enough to keep dual/dual heavy cannons a desirable option.
Here are some ideas that would help IMO:
About that possible Galaxy Battlecruiser, i think Cryptic let me wait for so long for a good GCS to fly, i would be glad to pay a few ZEN to finally have a viable and fun to fly GCS finally.
Let's hope it is a GCS and not some of Cryptics abominable ship designs...
I never thought about moving the generic damage consoles to engineering... Interesting idea, but also, a dangerous one because suddenly every single eng console in existence gets devalued overnight. And do we really want more damage with that serving of spike? I'd rather if Cryptic made Advanced and ELite fleet tac consoles out of the generics that offer both an energy weapon and a projectile weapon bonus (or vice versa), and a third effect that reduces weapon drain, increases firing arc, or increases accuracy.
Agree with the rest.
ESPECIALLY on this FBC being able to use the Galaxy skin. Even if it can't use the dreadnought cruiser skin; I'd (reluctantly) give up a third nacelle for a viable Galaxy chassis!!
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
^^^ This in spades!!!!!!
Problem with making torps' have limited ammo is how much do you limit it to? In PvP, the fight might last from 30 seconds to 2-3 minutes, three minutes of shooting photon torps, nonstop (highly unlikely event) uses 30 torps. Unless you limit it to about 10 torps, no one will see a difference. Also, what happens if a ship is destroyed and respawned? Does it get a full load again?
As far as devaluation of normal engineering consoles goes, I really wouldn't worry about it too much. I think loading a ships engineering console slots with generic weapons consoles (especially if they enacted diminished returns like they have done for most other non tactical consoles) will diminish the overall effectiveness of the ship. I can see one or two consoles for a ship with four or five slots, but otherwise I wouldn't even consider using one. The Exploration cruiser (and Oddy Ops cruiser), with its five engineering slots would be the biggest benefactor of this change.
I think escorts loading them up would have real problems maintaining effectiveness.
Heck i would HATE cryptic if they wouldn't give us the choice to use the third nacelle or not (i would choose NOT to, but others would).
As whamhammer1 said, a escort using such consoles would be a killable as a Ferengi NPC trader
They would loose a LOT of survivability for a little bit more damage, but other ships like the GCS or any other engineering heavy ship would really benefit from it PLUS using those consoles would finally make sense.
unlike engeneering and to a degree tactical,science got enought choice in ensign power, maybe too much so it would not be a big deal for them.
since these would be transfert to engi, they will still have acces to it, so it is not like if we take them away from them.
it could be even better for them, because right now they really must do a choice for ensign level, having those power available on an other proffesion could solve some of those dilema.
and tactical escort would greatly lost in survivability if they choose to equiped with these power, over the EPTS one.
that being said, i am not "stuck" on that idea and will take any other suggestion that make sense.
heck even the dotdrunkimshoot idea with auxtobat in ensign is sufficient enought in my opinion.
yes, dem is tactical in the sense that it is meant to kill and not heal, however what i meant by it to not be tactical is that it is not supposed to be "as" effective as a real tactical power proffession.
for dem i bielieve you haven't try hard enought, go to kerrat they are people there that have a build around it, and if you are not carrefull, you are dead with them, star cruiser ,odyssey or scimitar is all the same, rsp or not.
the secret of the build? simple when you think about it.
they use auxtobat build with attack pattern delta + bfaw + dem +marion +feedbackpulse.
attack pattern delta give a damage resitance debuff to any enemy attacking your ship ( so it can work again multiple enemy ), bfaw with the full power resistance of marion combine with the shield penetration of dem + feedbackpulse that have 50% shield penetration.
i hope you are beguining to anderstand what that can do.
and you known what, the funny things is that a build like that can be use on a galaxy retrofit.
bfaw work again multiple target, attackpattern delta work again multiple target, feedbackpulse work again multiple target. you see the pattern?
for tractor beam to stop you dead, you have to go at slow speed, or he will only slow you, it is also easily resist with an engine batterie, evasive maneuver, deutherium burn, epte power, so in most case even if it can stop you, it generally don't last long with good player with a good build, and i am not even talking about power that can shrug him off completely because what i want to show you is that it only generally end to a slow.
but what you propose do exactly that, think about it more carefully, you have the hull proc and slow effect of warp plasma, this can be cleared by hazard, ok cool, but then the player will still be slow for 15 second decrisivly, so if he want to get rid of that effect he will have to use an other abilitie like evasive maneuver for example.
so he will basically use 2 abilities to clear 1 of your power, you don't see the imbalance here?
warp plasma will become a must have power, and i can predict beautifull fight in warp plasma cloud all day long.
it is funtioning as intended.
this power is not meant to be unclearable! or hardly clearable.
it also have other use as just stop you enemy, it can be use as a protective shield for mines, pet, targetable torpedo, all kind of spam. these are all the function of warp plasma.
give it the abiliti you describe and it will be a must have power just like the leech console nowaday.
you use an abilitie, he use a counter, that the way it work, this counter is a choice in a build, not everybody use hazard emitter, and everybody would prefer to use it when they want to and not when you force them to.
that like a game of chest, you have to known when to use or not use your abilities.
anyway you can't seriously ask for a power with no counter, just because you are afraid that maybe someone in the team will counter it.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
sorry but, you are dreaming here, like a already said before, the best escort player don't use hull plating console, these are mostly useless.
mt'poney one of the best pvper don't use them and i wish you good luck to kill him in a 1vs1 and even in a 1vs3.
for these player it will only result in additional firepower without touching there survivability.
but for the other player, you are going to ask me?
for the other who relie on hull plating console to survive they were never a threat in the first place....sorry, maybe blunt, but true.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
I don't know how they wanted it done, it wasn't my idea, lol. And I think it was intended to count every torp in a spread/volley so if you use torp spread 3 and launch off 40 torps, those 40 come all count against your torpedo complement. But in cannon, I don't think there was a significant enough difference in the number of torps the defiant could carry vs a sovereign class, for example, for them to justify cruisers having thousands of torps and a defiant only having a couple hundred. And I think that they may have wanted you to return to starbase to purchase more torpedoes and have them be cheap like batteries or whatever. I'm not a big fan of consumable ammo in videogames though, like archers in mmo's who carry around a log cabin worth of wood in the form of thousands arrows... super realistic >> lol, just make a magic quiver that replenishes arrows or a bow that makes an arrow every time you pull the string.
I do think torps could use a buff, but any notion that such a buff would not still mostly benefit escorts is silly.
Anyway, is there a new galaxy variant supposedly in the works or are they looking at reworking the galaxy? I can only imagine a new variant would have to be science heavy if you consider the normal variant to be the engineer version, the dread version the tactical one, and then there could be a science one... four science consols, 3 eng, two tac and move the ensign over to science. lol. Lame, but yeah.
I still think that "reworking" the galaxy is the wrong way to go to make it a viable ship. They should be reworking cruisers/engineering (and science too) to make those ships more viable with the boff seating and console slots they have. If the other team (sci and eng) powers were reworked so that tac team isn't the gold standard of tanking, then cruisers and sci ships with only two tactical powers wouldn't be quite so bad off. If beams were reworked to spike harder instead of tickle over time, if crowd control/debuff abilities weren't so easy to shrug off/counter. Aceton beam wrecks energy damage, that's an excellent power to level the playing field between a cruiser and an escort, but the escort hazard emitts itself, and bam, free and clear. Perhaps if most healing abilities were self only, then cruisers would be needed to tank because they couldn't send all their heals to keep the escort alive so it can tank and blow through everything. If aux to structural, hazard emitters, most everything except team powers (it is logical to be able to beam a team over to another ship to assist) and extend shields were limited to self only, I think it would be helpful in making cruisers a more necessary tank. Maybe... not absolutely sure, but maybe. And if extend shields and transfer shield strength were allowed to be cross heals, perhaps it would be good to give them a penalty to the providing ship. When a ship extends their shields, it strains their systems, the shields can't take as much damage, so maybe the target ship gets a boost, but the aiding ship takes a hit to regeneration or capacity or resistance or their shields have extra bleed through. Maybe transfer shield strength should pull points out of your shields and transfer them to someone else so that it is a re-allocation and not "Magic shields out of nowhere."e.g. 4k shields from each facing is pulled from your shields and transferred to your target's shields. I think it would make the game a bit more like it was in the show and might actually do something about these invincible escorts with zombie healers and restore some epic to cruisers and sci vessels.
I don't do PvP, nor i am at least interested in it. I was just assuming that most escort jockeys would use their engineering consoles for armor.
So what would you do to make Cruisers more "even"?
Hmm, well I'm not entirely against the idea of taking polarize hull and tractor and moving it to eng, science does have a ridiculous amount of ensign level abilities available to it, however, I am sure that would "mess with the way their boff auto-power selector" works or whatever so they would rather add new powers than move things from one department to another.
So you're telling me that to make directed energy modulation effective, it requires four special boffs? Three technicians for the aux to bat, plus the super expensive marion doff? And then it must be paired with two copies of aux to bat for the technician doffs as well as feedback pulse? That's ridiculous, tactical doesn't require that much convolution to produce damage. And how does feedback pulse help when your aux is wrecked? Must need epic particle generators. So you have to spec into that as well... lol.
Tractors have never not stopped my dead without using evasive or emergency power to engines or an engine battery or omega's laugh at all crowd control to get out of it, maybe you fly escorts and not big honking cruisers that don't move fast at all.
No, I don't see a problem with that, considering I have to use up all my heals just to counter the damage coming in from an alpha escort, let him have to burn hazards and evasive to help counter my warp plasma.
Besides, I said hazards or whatever ability could clear the debuff over time, so you're not at a crawl for 15 seconds waiting for it to clear, it gets better and better over 15 seconds, so you aren't even suffering from the full debuff that whole time, so I don't see it as being quite so crippling as you claim, but rather finally useful and not effortlessly shrugged off.
It's practically a waste of a heal slot at this point for cruisers because eject warp plasma is so easily shrugged off, and "mine shield" and "kill enemy fighters" is barely useful considering you normally fly into mines, and warp plasma is behind you, and fighters don't do all that much damage anyway pecking at you from all sides like a bunch of idiots.
And yes, if warp plasma works the way I say, it will actually be useful and more people will use it, shocker. And then maybe not everyone would be crying out for MOAR TAC! everyone wants more tac boff seating, everyone wants more tactical consoles, clearly the game is imbalanced toward tac and you are just sitting here complaining that tac won't rule the world if eng and sci powers actually start doing something. And eng and sci powers should be lethal too, the role of cruisers and sci vessels should not simply be to support the escorts. Escorts should not be the star of the show with crusiers and sci vessels as backup dancers. They should all be equally lethal in their own ways.
I'm not asking for these powers to have "no counter" I am saying they shouldn't be so easily countered. Right now, most sci and eng attack/crowd control powers are so easily countered that they barely do anything, they are largely a mild inconvenience or at worst, annoying. Counters shouldn't just be a "magic clear" they should work over time, just like heals should work over time. Nobody likes this yoyo of you get someone down to 1% hull only to have them jump up to 100% hull and 100% shields. Switching things to a heal over time and clear over time may require slight tweaking to improve durability, but frankly, I've never been fond of the two seconds from start of attack till explosion. I would also like it if they would introduce a mechanic that boosts ship defense/resistance based on the number of ships attacking you, this would allow them to balance the game both for single combat and group combat so that one does not end up with one on one combat where both ships are invincible because they are built to withstand the assault of five ships.
APO is too powerful since it combines Hazard emitters AND polarize hull just for the sake of making escorts immune to science ships and cruisers without much efford. (let's not forget that APO even buffs the escorts damage, it almost rediculus)
In my opinion AOP and Tactical team make Escorts too OP.
I drive escorts too, but whatever that is, I don't use it. Sounds like I can make use of it with my Dreadnought too.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
Lol, sorry i meant APO (attack pattern omega)