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Why not Antiproton?
rylanadionysis
Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
So I just had a rather lengthy discussion with someone about weapon types. I am a longstanding and steadfast user of AP weaponry on my main toon, and they were questioning that.
So I figured with the recent bandwagon moves to RomPlas and pure Disruptor weapon loadouts I would share my reasoning behind choosing AP over other types. Perhaps it will ignite a discussion, and/or someone could point me to a more valid argument than "its just better, trust me" with something I have missed to back it up.
Currently people are raving about the 2.5% proc to lower resistance by 10% (which afaik only affects hulls, not shields)
But isnt AP essentially a "proc" equivalent to your Critical Hit chance that raises damage by 20% for you?
Example: Guy with disruptors vs bare hull will do 10 percent more damage to it 2.5 percent of the time.
I will do 20% more damage to it 15% of the time (my crit rate)
Is there something flawed with my logic?
Yes I do understand the team benefit of disruptors, but the math to me doesnt seem to add up all that well. It would take 4-6 people using disruptors to equate to the same AP "proc" I run, wouldnt it?
So I figured with the recent bandwagon moves to RomPlas and pure Disruptor weapon loadouts I would share my reasoning behind choosing AP over other types. Perhaps it will ignite a discussion, and/or someone could point me to a more valid argument than "its just better, trust me" with something I have missed to back it up.
Currently people are raving about the 2.5% proc to lower resistance by 10% (which afaik only affects hulls, not shields)
But isnt AP essentially a "proc" equivalent to your Critical Hit chance that raises damage by 20% for you?
Example: Guy with disruptors vs bare hull will do 10 percent more damage to it 2.5 percent of the time.
I will do 20% more damage to it 15% of the time (my crit rate)
Is there something flawed with my logic?
Yes I do understand the team benefit of disruptors, but the math to me doesnt seem to add up all that well. It would take 4-6 people using disruptors to equate to the same AP "proc" I run, wouldnt it?
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
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How many team members would have to carry disruptor then to overshadow the benefit of one person with AP? 3? 4?
That is what I am getting at. Whats the tipping point, in other words?
Assume all people on team have identical setups and damage output base.
If all five run disruptors:
50% * 5 people = 250% DPS increase, 2.5% of the time. = net gain of 10% over time
if all five run AP:
20% * 5 people = 100% DPS increase, 15% of the time = net gain of 15% over time
This is the math that has me stumped. This of course assumes all capped out ships running very high crit of 15.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
the problem is Rom plasma weapons and [Pla] Sci consoles.
Rom Plasma combines TWO direct damage increasing procs into one weapon
and Sci consoles with [Pla] do something NO OTHER SCI CONSOLE DOES: directly increase energy weapon damage.
what type you ask? the same type as the aforementioned uber-proc weapon
:rolleyes:
*the above comments apply solely to PVE, since i dont PVP and never will*
Right but your math is for a single weapon hit. Remember, the disruptor proc boosts that hit and lots of subsequent hits as well.
Thats a curiosity I hadnt considered. From the tooltip the consoles say they add a plasma proc to a weapon, i figured that a plasma weapon already having the proc wouldnt add another.
That is interesting indeed. This might be the missing link I was looking for. I shall test.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
ummmm. it say right on them: increases Palsma weapon damage by X% (IIRC MK XII is 9.6%)
on NON-plasma weapons, it adds the plasma proc.
Shut up and take my money indeed
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Wouldn't any weapon with [crtD] modifier be an Antiproton hybrid already?
No, with AP it already has an innate CrtD modifier. So 20% before you even add extra modifiers. With 3x CrtD that'd be +80% crit dmg, effectively 4xCrtD.
Other weapons can only get up to 60% with 3x CrtD.
(The above is from memory, but it should be something like that)
Though I have seen some tetryon weapons with 70% CrtD, unsure if thats a typo or not.
70% crtD is due to dhc's bonus 10%.
But most hybrid weapons would trade a modifier for a proc anyway. Rom Plasma has both plasma and disruptor proc, but only 2 modifiers (except fleet weapons which have 4 modifiers on top of the procs).
Thus, disruptor antiproton hybrid will have a disruptor proc and 20% crtD which makes little sense. This is why there isnt any antiproton hybrid weapons I guess.
Anyway if only theres an antiproton weapon with 3x CrtD, it'll be my first choice for sure. But sadly there isn't.
However, the question is, is it more viable than other types?
A friend of mine has stated on several occasions that the AP calculations are broken (I forget which), and perhaps more importantly the mods on the weapons available do not allow you to fully capitalize on the CrtH/CrtD properties. So while it's viable, I'm not certain it can be said to be optimal.
As of right now, plasma is "king" due to the overabundance of possible buffs for it (the plasma-booster consoles from the embassy, the Romulan set, the experimental Romulan beam array...) Additionally, each faction only offers special weaponry in its "native" type, which can be constricting for some builds.
So, in short, it's viable, and probably works extremely well for crit-heavy builds, but otherwise has some flaws that may make it sub-optimal.
One additional note about AP is the fact that the stuff is (or at least, used to be) ridiculously expensive compared to other types of weapons and gear. It seems that perhaps a year and a half ago, it was the "trendy" weapon type for end-game things. So I think this skewed perception about it - first in its favor that it was overly powered, and then perhaps against it as backlash as it was overrated at the time.
Disclaimer: I do not know a whole lot about the details of AP math, and I stick with phasers, although I used to use lots of AP weapons myself.
Here's an example:
Average hit on a sphere with AP BA is ~8-900. Crit for ~1500. That's with no skills and just your straight out standard TRIBBLE.
Average hit on a sphere with your Disruptor BA is ~8-900. Crit for ~1350. That's no disruptor proc. Add in the disruptor proc, and your BA will hit normally for ~900-1000 (yes, doing some rounding here), and your crits will be ~1500.
So... in the end it comes down to how much you crit, and how much you proc. Also that -10.8 resistance doesn't mean a damage increase on the target of 10%. It means you're reducing their actual resistance by 10. Which can translate to a lot more than 10% from what I have seen. I have had my FACR hitting targets on average for 7-800 unbuffed with it's BAs on a full spread. But as soon as I get a disruptor proc, all of my BAs start hitting for 1k-1200 unbuffed. To say nothing of the 18-1900 crits.
Disruptor match is wonky. End of story XD.
But as for your usage of AP? Why the hell not, it's the only proc that has a 100% chance of occurring. And it hits like a bloody freight train if used correctly.
Ap adds awesomesauce. But you do need a high crit rate to make it just amazing.
I wonder where that graph of crith vs critd went.
..there a certain crossover where critd surpasses crith.
Also...why isn't there ap with critdx3?
...critd is why I'm using ap. if there are weapons with mods higher than what I have...great I'm a go shopping now
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
So that was my main decision maker for antiproton, the fact its basically a 15% proc chance.
Not to mention I love the red. >_> But thats just a fluff reason.
I do use romplas or disruptor on all of my other toons, but Rylana has the highest crit (currently). Eventually my roms will be higher, but ive seen both sides and I just wanted some community feedback to see if my own conclusions missed something.
Im glad I wasnt being a derp with it and it had some merit.
Thanks guys.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
The mere introduction of romulan plasma doesn't seem like it could be the only AP killer, and disrupter is more popular than ever despite not really being changed.
But AP has only gotten better. With the romulan reputation passive, console, and boffs, we can get higher critH than ever before, and when I was looking at these additions on the horizon I thought AP was going to skyrocket in popularity. I don't understand why it hasn't.
Very delicious idea if I do say so myself. Every ship firing rainbows!! :cool:
But AP weapons simply can't take off because there are no MkXII AP weapons, outside of fleet advanced stuff. Why the hell do I want to pay through the nose for only [Acc]x2 or [CrtH]x2? Chroniton energy weapons in a lockbox however would fix that problem in a flash.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
Hey, did you get that from me?
Anywho, I think antiproton weapons are great in space and on ground. But honestly I'd particularly recommend them for Romulans compared to Fed or KDF, since Romulans can get uber-levels of crit.
Only one reason I don't use them:
I can't STAND the noise antiproton weapons make in space. Ground ain't so bad. But in space, it's like nails on a chalkboard to me, it's downright awful IMO.
That would be personal preference. I adore the lawd noyze they make. Makes me feel strong and can make things go.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
If you have a high enough critH to make antiproton weapons worth it (and the dil and fc to buy them
How would all antiproton compare with antiproton forward, some form of disruptor proc turrets aft (eg. Nanite, Rom Plasma) would the loss in direct damage be offset by the proc when it triggered? (And would this still lose out to a full Plasma/Rom Plasma Setup?)
(Rom Plasma would probably be best, given you could run 2pc singularity harness + embassy sci consoles to bring damage back up)
(this basically asks are there optimal builds that use different energy fore and aft?)
I will assume each setup consists of 6 identical energy weapons for the following calculations.
Antiproton Weapons:
This is extremely simple, because the weapons are independent. When one weapon "procs" (a critical hit), it deals +20% damage on that hit. It doesn't affect any other weapon, and it is instantaneous.
With a critical hit rate of 15% and +20% critical severity, each weapon deals +20% damage 15% of the time. 20%*15% = 3%. That's +3% damage, or +3% DPS since it's calculated every hit.
With a setup of 6 weapons, it's still +3% DPS.
Consider a weapon that deals 100 damage. +20% damage means 20 damage. You have a 15% chance of dealing that, so 20*15% = 3, which is 3% of 100.
Now take 6 of them, dealing a total of 600 damage. +20% damage means 120 damage. You have a 15% chance of dealing that, so 120*15% = 18, which is 3% of 600.
With 5 ships running the identical setup, it's still +3% DPS.
5 ship using 6 weapons means 30 weapons. If they each deal 100 damage, that's 3000 damage. +20% damage is 600, and you have a 15% chance of dealing that. 600*15% = 90, which is 3% of 3000.
Percentages are not additive. It doesn't matter how many antiproton weapons are in play because they are independent. With a 15% critical hit chance antiproton weapons result in +3% DPS.
Disruptor Weapons:
This is a lot more complicated because the weapons work together, as opposed to independently.
Remember that disruptor procs do not stack. When it procs, all weapons deal an additional 10% damage for 15s. (This is a simplification, as the debuff actually should grant more than +10% damage on target due to how damage mitigation works.) Within those 15 seconds, we can get 3 firing cycles for beams and 5 for cannons. For the purpose of my calculations I'll pretend the weapons are a hybrid beam/cannon, with 4 firing cycles in 15 seconds.
Let's look at just one weapon. It's not simply +10% damage instantaneously - when the debuff applies it lasts for 15 seconds, which is 4 firing cycles. If the debuff is already active when it procs again, it gets refreshed. So the chance for the debuff isn't just 2.5% as that only covers one firing cycle and negates the possibility of refreshing the debuff.
The actual % uptime of the disruptor debuff for one weapon is 1 - (1 - 0.025)^(4) = 0.096312109375, or roughly 9.6%. 9.6% uptime for a 10% damage boost results in +0.96% DPS. Not very impressive thus far.
With 6 such weapons, the % uptime of the disruptor debuff becomes 1 - (1 - 0.025)^(4*6) = 0.455358441557126593706655738352, or roughly 45.5%. 45.5% uptime for a 10% damage boost results in +4.55% DPS.
With 5 ships, we have 30 weapons. The % uptime of the disruptor debuff becomes 1 - (1 - 0.025)^(4*30) = 0.952075909035862917730556474136, or roughly 95.2%. 95.2% uptime for a 10% damage boost results in +9.52% DPS.
Disruptor weapons have synergy because it applies a debuff which can be refreshed. The more disruptor weapons are in play, the more likely the debuff is active while you're dealing damage. 5 ships with 6 weapons firing 4 times every 15 seconds results in +9.52% DPS, simply because you'll be getting that damage bonus almost every shot. Note also that +10% is actually less than what we usually get, due to how damage mitigation works.
Also remember that unlike with antiproton weapons, the disruptor debuff will increase the damage of your kinetic weapons as well. You really need a higher critical hit chance for the antiproton setup to be competitive. Is that 15% accounting for accuracy overflow (from things like Starship Targeting Systems, Accurate, etc.), maxed out Weapon Specialization, APA, Assimilated Module, Zero Point Energy Conduit, Tachyokinetic Converter, T2 Romulan passive, and BOffs with Superior Romulan Operative? I'll have to check my critical hit chance when I get back on the game tonight.
Four tactical consoles give +120% base damage. If you have a different energy type you'll either be short 120% for those weapons, or only have +80% base for all weapons.
Hmm, it might be possible to just have disruptor turrets aft (as opposed to the proper energy type), because turrets don't contribute that much DPS compared to your DHCs/torpedoes in front, but I'm not sure how the numbers play out.
I wouldn't swap out anything other than turrets though.
Thanks for the math, I love statements backed by numbers.
And (i don't really know how much this plays to thread in its entirety) but...
You can find disruptors with critdx3
AP with critdx3 either doesn't exist or is so bloody rare that you can't count on ever getting them.
Fleets are your for sures, the most you can get is 1 crit d. That's 50% (if using dhc).
A disruptor dhc critdx3 will have 70%. If you are stacking critd, AP actually falls behind.
Tl:dr disruptors are better, proven by darkjeff, and they are much much more commonly found with critdx3 than ap
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
My character Tsin'xing
Um...well...you see...um...that's not right...with a few things.
First, those formulas do not give you the % uptime. They give you the probability that at least one Disruptor proc will happen during the 15s period you're looking at. That proc could happen on the first cycle, second cycle, third cycle, or fourth cycle. The % uptime will be based on which cycle the proc occurs.
Second, um - what weapon do you have with 4 cycles in 15s? Cannons have a "2/3" cycle, so that's 5 cycles. Beams have a "4/5" cycle, so that's 3 cycles. I put them in quotes, because although the DPV/DPS numbers are based on 2/3, 4/3, and 4/5...some recent parsing of DHCs showed a 2/3.2s cycle instead of 2/3. Even so, you'd still start the 5th cycle within the 15s period.
Third, the Disruptor proc is not a +10% damage boost. The Disruptor proc is a -10 Damage Resistance Rating debuff. That debuff is resisted by resistance. I still haven't cleaned up the formula to show the end damage resistance taking into account +Damage Resistance Rating and -Damage Resistance Rating, but you can plug the numbers into...
TDR = (-1 * ((1 / ((1 + (1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) + ((DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) ^2)))) / (1 + (1 - (((-1 * ((1 / (1 + (1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) + ((DRRP / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) ^2))))) - 1)) * 100) / 100) * (1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1 - (((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1) / (1 + (DRRN / ((1 / (1 - MAX)) - 1)) + ((DRRN / ((1 / (1 - 0.75)) - 1)) ^2)))))) - 1)) * 100)
Where TDR is Total Damage Resistance (you'll notice the * 100 at the end, that's just there to take the 0.xx number and make it easier for me to read as a xx% number), DRRP is the Damage Resistance Rating Positive (add them all up, divide by 100 (17.5 becomes 0.175)) and DRRN is the Damage Resistance Rating Negative (add them all up, divide by 100 (10 becomes 0.10)).
If something has 0 positive DRR, then the -10 DRR debuff will result in +10% damage. If the target has the equivalent of a single rare Neut Mk XI, then the debuff will result in +7.6% damage.
Youd have to be able to debuff down the target to 0 resistance to get the full benefit in other words ya?
That starts getting into uptimes of other debuff skills then, like sensor scan, APB, etc.
And correct me if im wrong, but the disruptor proc -10 resistance only noticeably affects bare hull? Does that same debuff work on shields and if so is the calculation any different?
Whereas AP is the same flat rate constantly (subject to whatever the RNG throws at you for crits and when, but over time its pretty much constant)
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I play ground combat...a lot. I only mention this because it semi-relates.
Since ground combat is quick and fast, Crit is KING...particularly CritD.
That said, I tend to use AP weapons simply because their proc is the only one not dependent on the 2.5/5% rule. That being said, most MKXII VR AP weapons lose a modifier for a [Borg] or [Sonic] modifier (which sucks really..+7.5 or 15 damage per shot? Really?). Also, the best Fleet on is the one with CritX on it (which is CritH and 1/2 CritD - the DMG modifiers are weaksauce)
What's my point? AP Weapons on ground combat rock as it is easy with traits and buffs to keep a relatively high CritH rate going. This is not to say it's the only viable weapon - In fact, one of my main toons prefers his VR MKXII Tetryon SB Rifle with [Critd]x2 [CritH]...but AP is often a no-brainer when you are considering weapon types.
As a brief aside, for my klink toon, I use the Temporal Warfare set which kinda obliges me to go full AP as the Chroniton DBB reads as AP damage. I would have likley gone full plasma with the experimental Beam Array as it's free energy enable your other weapons to hit harder...
(If someone is bored and wants to do the maths for me, I'll buy you a cookie: If I'm running the Croniton DBB, A MK XII AP (Borg) Beam Array up front, and the Kinetic Cutting Beam and an MK XII AP (Borg) Turret in back, Would I gain by switching to Plasma, even with losing the buff to the Chronton Beam Bank? I'm starting to think it might...)