The problem with Heinlin's Razor (or Occam's Razor), is the simplest explanation might be the preferred answer to go to, but it isn't necessarily the correct one.
My apologies, but I cannot evade the urge to nitpick here. I'll begin with the name of the principle, and then address what the principle actually says, and what it actually means.
The so-called "Occam's Razor" (which would be more accurately "Ockham's Razor," since the man for whom the principle is named was an Englishman, William of Ockham), if we're going to use that name for the principle, ought to be understood correctly, rather than be conflated with Lex Parsimoniae (the "Law of Frugality," or perhaps more to the point, the "Law of Miserliness"). While many sources will say that Lex Parsimoniae is the Latin name for "Occam's Razor," the two are not expressed in the same manner, and the differences in the expression make all the difference between what is asserted by one, and what is asserted by the other. Further, Lex Parsimoniae was expressed before William of Ockham's time
While Lex Parsimoniae may (depending on whose explanation you're reading) advise that a simpler explanation is better, that in itself is a gross oversimplification of both Ockham's Razor and Lex Parsimoniae (and iconians apparently understands this, as suggested by use of the word "necessarily"). Neither Ockham's Razor nor Lex Parsimoniae go so far as to assert that the more simple an explanation, the better. Both principles are concerned with speculation, rather than evidence. Obviously, if there is sufficient evidence for a more complex explanation, the simplest may very well not be best. Lex Parsimoniae really was stated by William (but again, he did not invent the idea) as "Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora" ("It is futile to do with more things that which is able to be done with fewer"), but this is, as already noted, itself an oversimplification. What is correctly known as "Ockham's Razor," however, he stated as "Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate" ("Never is plurality to be placed without necessity"), in the context of competing hypotheses.
The meaning of the principle of Ockham's Razor is most simply (and still accurately) explained as "Don't make any more assumptions than are required," and more elaborately as "When attempting a speculative explanation for something, don't posit more than is necessary." This is to say, when working with incomplete evidence, the suggestion of more assumptions than must be made in order to provide an explanation is more likely to result in convoluted intellectual gymnastics with the goal (conscious or otherwise) of supporting one's bias in favor of one hypothesis over another which departs less from the extant evidence.
Perhaps it was just my memory becoming clouded but don't the Tal Shiar who are the remanants of the RSE use ships from the Ha Family. And this implies they where built in the IRW era.
Would these not be the newer designs after the D'Deridex, much like the Sovereign was after the Galaxy.
I'm pretty sure by the way Cryptic say it's a 100% Republic Design it is not intended to have an IRW prefix.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Perhaps it was just my memory becoming clouded but don't the Tal Shiar who are the remanants of the RSE use ships from the Ha Family. And this implies they where built in the IRW era.
Would these not be the newer designs after the D'Deridex, much like the Sovereign was after the Galaxy.
I'm pretty sure by the way Cryptic say it's a 100% Republic Design it is not intended to have an IRW prefix.
This is one of those cases where Occam's Razor applies.
If the Tal'Shiar have been seen to use Ha'xxxx ships, it implies nothing. A ship may be captured. Thereafter, it may be put to use by the power that captured it, and/or additional ships of that class may be constructed by the capturing power.
I use Mirror Universe ships at times. Were they built there in the Mirror Universe, or here in the Prime Universe based on captured MU vessels? As far as I know, nothing says one way or another.
I have an Elachi S'golth Escort (with an RRW prefix) and a Tal'Shiar Enhanced Destroyer (with an RRW prefix) -- yes, I said "Enhanced," rather than "Adapted" (because I changed the skin from "Adapted" to "Enhanced," which changed the ship class name. How did I come by these? Were they captured? Were they built based on captured ships? Again, as far as I know, there's no way to determine this.
Funny you mention that. As I recall, all of the British commonwealth countries (Canada, UK, Aulstralia, etc.) use a very similar prefex naming system. Something to the effect of HMS(military) or RMS(civilian) but with a letter changed reflecting that country (HMCS for Canada, HMAS for the Ausies). I can't easily find a side by side compairison online to confirm this without error of memory. I'm sure there is someone online who IS from a commonwealth nation who can correct my memory.
It only works with the commonwealth countries which still see the queen as their head of state. I say this because am from a commonwealth country myself and we don't use the (Her Majesty Ship) prefix, what we use instead is GNS (which stead for Ghana Navy Ship). The queen doesn't Govern us. But at one point we did use that HMGCS which stead for Her Majesty Gold Coast Ship. After we got our Independence and change the country name from Gold Coast to Ghana we got rid of the HMGCS.
"You ask why we give our ships computer normal emotions. Do you really want a warship incapable of loyalty?"
I use Mirror Universe ships at times. Were they built there in the Mirror Universe, or here in the Prime Universe based on captured MU vessels? As far as I know, nothing says one way or another.
I have an Elachi S'golth Escort (with an RRW prefix) and a Tal'Shiar Enhanced Destroyer (with an RRW prefix) -- yes, I said "Enhanced," rather than "Adapted" (because I changed the skin from "Adapted" to "Enhanced," which changed the ship class name. How did I come by these? Were they captured? Were they built based on captured ships? Again, as far as I know, there's no way to determine this.
Funny you mention that. As I recall, all of the British commonwealth countries (Canada, UK, Aulstralia, etc.) use a very similar prefex naming system. Something to the effect of HMS(military) or RMS(civilian) but with a letter changed reflecting that country (HMCS for Canada, HMAS for the Ausies). I can't easily find a side by side compairison online to confirm this without error of memory. I'm sure there is someone online who IS from a commonwealth nation who can correct my memory.
So now the romulan republic is a commonwealth of the federation and Klingon empire.
If the new ships do not allow for the IRW prefix then I most likely won't be buying one. I had planned on buying one once the Romulan faction allowed for the Suliban race to be played as a player character but now, like I said previously, I most likely won't.
The limitation too the RRW preix took me by surprise as well.. Personally, I do not have anything against D'Tan or his followers nor do i care what they do.. I However DO detest the fact that the Romulan Republic even exists. Perhaps this was caused by whoever owns the star trek franchise at the moment but whatever the reason, i cant stand the RRW.. this game contains the Tal-Shiar ( sort of a gestapo style enforcer unit of the government acting completely on its own in the name of Romulus as it sees it ), The RSE ( the Military faction of the Senate and rulling body but not neccessarily attached to the Tal-Shiar ) and the Empress ( an inept and laughable half breed who should have been exterminated at birth for the taint of her blood, if not for the fact that the only thing she can ever say is "'I'm your Empress ).. Where it may be true that the RSE still follows the dictates of the Senate ( and no one listens to the Empress )they are still far closer to a military body and therefore much closer to being a balance for the federation and klingon forces politically that this rabble of space going pointy eared hippy bajorans will ever be. We are Romulans. We serve the Empire ( tattered or not ) and i detest the line of existance at the feet of our klingon and federation masters that cryptic has forced us into. I HATE the RRW and anything that eludes too it..
The RSE, and the Imperial Fleet, were highly centralized organizations, headquartered on Romulus. Even when the Hobus supernova wavefront was found to be traveling through subspace, they thought they had months to evacuate - and have you ever known a bureaucracy, no matter the governmental style, that could do anything more quickly than absolutely necessary?
The Tal Shiar had the advantage of keeping their HQ elsewhere, apparently (at least, it seems unlikely to me that one colonel managed to build such an elaborate base in such a short time on his own steam); the Senate, however, is dead, and the Fleet was robbed of its high command. It would appear that in the aftermath, the Tal Shiar's handpicked political officers seized control of the Fleet (as apparently they can do - recall how Troi got back to Federation space after being abducted and altered to appear to be such a political officer).
In other words, aside from the imagination of one halfbreed would-be Empress, the Romulan Star Empire no longer exists. It ceased to be the day a supernova shockwave shattered their planet with little warning, destroying the seat of a highly-centralized government.
I'd give real-world examples, but people get up in arms when I do that. Suffice to say, it's quite a believable scenario, given the circumstances. Now, D'tan could well have decided he would revive the RSE on a new homeworld, still disavowed the Tal Shiar, and the plotline would proceed pretty much the same aside from using an IRW prefix - but he's an idealist. He wants to replace the Empire with a Republic, much as the French did in 1789. (Of course, France was ruled by an Emperor once again in 1804...)
The RSE, and the Imperial Fleet, were highly centralized organizations, headquartered on Romulus. Even when the Hobus supernova wavefront was found to be traveling through subspace, they thought they had months to evacuate - and have you ever known a bureaucracy, no matter the governmental style, that could do anything more quickly than absolutely necessary?
The Tal Shiar had the advantage of keeping their HQ elsewhere, apparently (at least, it seems unlikely to me that one colonel managed to build such an elaborate base in such a short time on his own steam); the Senate, however, is dead, and the Fleet was robbed of its high command. It would appear that in the aftermath, the Tal Shiar's handpicked political officers seized control of the Fleet (as apparently they can do - recall how Troi got back to Federation space after being abducted and altered to appear to be such a political officer).
In other words, aside from the imagination of one halfbreed would-be Empress, the Romulan Star Empire no longer exists. It ceased to be the day a supernova shockwave shattered their planet with little warning, destroying the seat of a highly-centralized government.
I'd give real-world examples, but people get up in arms when I do that. Suffice to say, it's quite a believable scenario, given the circumstances. Now, D'tan could well have decided he would revive the RSE on a new homeworld, still disavowed the Tal Shiar, and the plotline would proceed pretty much the same aside from using an IRW prefix - but he's an idealist. He wants to replace the Empire with a Republic, much as the French did in 1789. (Of course, France was ruled by an Emperor once again in 1804...)
In my opinion, the writers are following the roman setup. Going from empire to republic, etc. Following new ideas like calling soldiers up from the common ranks instead of the from the wealthy aristocracy.
That being said. I think it is more than the Hobus nova that ended the RSE. First, Hakeev seemed to know what was coming. So he shifts elements loyal to him to isolated minor outposts. His superiors probably thought he was taking an exile for being slapped down as an egotistical fool. As a former military science officer he knew where the back up military bases were and who he would need to silence. Awefully odd for a huge and costly military base to be totally abandoned after a disaster. Especially when the nation will need that support. (I speak of the Vault) Hobus was a decapitation strike by Hakeev to give him the Tal Shi'ar and through them the military and the empire. After all we do not see any imperial military ships or crew. Nothing but Tal Shi'ar vessels. From a civilian organization. This is the equivalent of the CIA crewing the US Navy. Only way possible, is every major military head is gone. And they obviously had bases off the home world. But none of those commanders seem to be around any more.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
During "Undine Advance" your ship is sent to the aid of a romulan ship where the captain of that ship clearly states it is an RSE ship. Unless the acid of silicon valley has gotten much better than i remember the writers would not have the RRW coming to the aid of their sworn enemy the Tali Shiar, Neither would a Tal Shiar captain present themselves as nothing more than the RSE.. Therefore, Its an RSE ship and the RSE is still alive If not well..
As an aside, the romulans at their invention were based on the Chinese. Since time immerorial the Chinese have followed an Emperor only today he is called "Chairman" The position remains the same, the people remain the same, only the name has changed.
Doesn't the X in NX mean merely "experimental," as in the X-15?
Thats exactly what it means.
Its a Prefix that is canonicly limited to the first and experimental version of a new class of ship.
The way the Excelsior, the NX-2000 became NCC-2000 when her trial runs were complete.
So having people fly around in sovereigns, intrepids, Miranda's and what not with an NX prefix is pretty absurd.
Thats exactly what it means.
Its a Prefix that is canonicly limited to the first and experimental version of a new class of ship.
The way the Excelsior, the NX-2000 became NCC-2000 when her trial runs were complete.
So having people fly around in sovereigns, intrepids, Miranda's and what not with an NX prefix is pretty absurd.
I agree in principle, but we are frozen in 2409, even three years after STO began, apart from time-travel missions and the early (pre-rediscovery of Dewa-III/Mol'Rihan) Romulan missions. Perhaps when (and if) time begins to move forward, it would be worthwhile to revisit the X in these ship prefixes and alter them to something more reasonable.
The Daeinos (Veteran) Warbird and the new tactical warbird were designed, built and deployed by the Romulan Republic. So none of those ships were commissioned with the IRW prefix and none are in use by the Imperial remnants.
All the other Warbirds save for those two were built by the Star Empire (though I'm sure some have been built by the Republic too) and have generally be rechristened by the Republic. Hense why they can have the IRW or RRW prefix.
Now you only need to explain why a Republic designed ship can't be captured and rechristened by the Empire.
You can run around on the ground in a TOS costume, chill out looking like some half-naked Elf on icy maps, have aliens with tiny bodies and superhuge heads going for a Romulan citizen. But don't you dare appear with the I. R. W. prefix. For that breaks the lore! Ahhh... ! The integrity of it all! You can sense the power of quality control in this one!
Now you only need to explain why a Republic designed ship can't be captured and rechristened by the Empire.
A sense of superiority in the Tal Shi'ar. It would also be why they do not go out and start flying klingon and federation ships they could capture.
After all why use vessels of inferior life forms? And that looks easy looking to the two major factions. Now look at how Hakeev speaks to you in the beginning? 'When will you colonists learn your place?' He is aristocracy, he can not concieve the idea of commoners having value beyond fodder. I doubt he was alone in his thinking in the higher echelons. So why would they use a design made by these low lifes?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
You can run around on the ground in a TOS costume, chill out looking like some half-naked Elf on icy maps, have aliens with tiny bodies and superhuge heads going for a Romulan citizen. But don't you dare appear with the I. R. W. prefix. For that breaks the lore! Ahhh... ! The integrity of it all! You can sense the power of quality control in this one!
---
Be fair, there is one planet that concedes cold (Rure Penthe) and one that concedes extreme heat (Nukara) For the others they assumed either your (can be made invisible) armour or your force field will keep you warm/cool. :rolleyes:
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Be fair, there is one planet that concedes cold (Rure Penthe) and one that concedes extreme heat (Nukara) For the others they assumed either your (can be made invisible) armour or your force field will keep you warm/cool. :rolleyes:
You're right. I'm being unfair. Nothing beats elaborate excuses to have a bunch of naked elfs in your party at any cost. As long as they don't fly with nasty letters in space.
The RSE, and the Imperial Fleet, were highly centralized organizations, headquartered on Romulus.
And yet, the surviving RSE military was and is strong enough enough to hold back ravenous klingons from conquering the RSE during its vulnerable moments. Its in the path to 20xx, and also common sense. Otherwise there would be no green on the map, just more red.
Comments
My apologies, but I cannot evade the urge to nitpick here. I'll begin with the name of the principle, and then address what the principle actually says, and what it actually means.
The so-called "Occam's Razor" (which would be more accurately "Ockham's Razor," since the man for whom the principle is named was an Englishman, William of Ockham), if we're going to use that name for the principle, ought to be understood correctly, rather than be conflated with Lex Parsimoniae (the "Law of Frugality," or perhaps more to the point, the "Law of Miserliness"). While many sources will say that Lex Parsimoniae is the Latin name for "Occam's Razor," the two are not expressed in the same manner, and the differences in the expression make all the difference between what is asserted by one, and what is asserted by the other. Further, Lex Parsimoniae was expressed before William of Ockham's time
While Lex Parsimoniae may (depending on whose explanation you're reading) advise that a simpler explanation is better, that in itself is a gross oversimplification of both Ockham's Razor and Lex Parsimoniae (and iconians apparently understands this, as suggested by use of the word "necessarily"). Neither Ockham's Razor nor Lex Parsimoniae go so far as to assert that the more simple an explanation, the better. Both principles are concerned with speculation, rather than evidence. Obviously, if there is sufficient evidence for a more complex explanation, the simplest may very well not be best. Lex Parsimoniae really was stated by William (but again, he did not invent the idea) as "Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora" ("It is futile to do with more things that which is able to be done with fewer"), but this is, as already noted, itself an oversimplification. What is correctly known as "Ockham's Razor," however, he stated as "Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate" ("Never is plurality to be placed without necessity"), in the context of competing hypotheses.
The meaning of the principle of Ockham's Razor is most simply (and still accurately) explained as "Don't make any more assumptions than are required," and more elaborately as "When attempting a speculative explanation for something, don't posit more than is necessary." This is to say, when working with incomplete evidence, the suggestion of more assumptions than must be made in order to provide an explanation is more likely to result in convoluted intellectual gymnastics with the goal (conscious or otherwise) of supporting one's bias in favor of one hypothesis over another which departs less from the extant evidence.
Would these not be the newer designs after the D'Deridex, much like the Sovereign was after the Galaxy.
I'm pretty sure by the way Cryptic say it's a 100% Republic Design it is not intended to have an IRW prefix.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
This is one of those cases where Occam's Razor applies.
If the Tal'Shiar have been seen to use Ha'xxxx ships, it implies nothing. A ship may be captured. Thereafter, it may be put to use by the power that captured it, and/or additional ships of that class may be constructed by the capturing power.
I use Mirror Universe ships at times. Were they built there in the Mirror Universe, or here in the Prime Universe based on captured MU vessels? As far as I know, nothing says one way or another.
I have an Elachi S'golth Escort (with an RRW prefix) and a Tal'Shiar Enhanced Destroyer (with an RRW prefix) -- yes, I said "Enhanced," rather than "Adapted" (because I changed the skin from "Adapted" to "Enhanced," which changed the ship class name. How did I come by these? Were they captured? Were they built based on captured ships? Again, as far as I know, there's no way to determine this.
Do not multiply assumptions without necessity.
Seriouly, the availability of the NX prefix pretty much renders all arguments against prefixes moot.
Doesn't the X in NX mean merely "experimental," as in the X-15?
It only works with the commonwealth countries which still see the queen as their head of state. I say this because am from a commonwealth country myself and we don't use the (Her Majesty Ship) prefix, what we use instead is GNS (which stead for Ghana Navy Ship). The queen doesn't Govern us. But at one point we did use that HMGCS which stead for Her Majesty Gold Coast Ship. After we got our Independence and change the country name from Gold Coast to Ghana we got rid of the HMGCS.
Tholian incursions into the alternate dimension known as the "Mirror Universe" have resulted in ships being brought back for study. Starfleet and the Klingon Defense Force have obtained several of these vessels and found them fit for frontline duty with minimal modifications.
During the many clashes between Elachi and the Romulan Republic and its allies, many examples of Elachi technology have been recovered and are being adapted to help fight these silent enemies. Elachi technology may even allow ships to someday explore subspace, where the Elachi apparently have the ability to safely travel and even construct stations for their fleets.
---
Although the Tal Shiar's development of Borg-infused technology has been publicly decried as rash and dangerous, the effectiveness and power of these weapons and starships cannot be denied. Throughout known space, conflict after conflict has resulted in the destruction of entire fleets of Tal Shiar vessels, yet these strange "Adapted? starships seem to somehow be capable of rebuilding themselves long after their crews and captains have been captured or laid to rest in the vacuum of space. The Lobi Crystal Consortium, at grave risk to their personal well-being, have undertaken massive salvage operations in this region of space to obtain as many of these mechanical marvels as they can, in hopes of offering them off to the highest bidder.
Yes.
So now the romulan republic is a commonwealth of the federation and Klingon empire.
:P
[/SIGPIC]
The RSE, and the Imperial Fleet, were highly centralized organizations, headquartered on Romulus. Even when the Hobus supernova wavefront was found to be traveling through subspace, they thought they had months to evacuate - and have you ever known a bureaucracy, no matter the governmental style, that could do anything more quickly than absolutely necessary?
The Tal Shiar had the advantage of keeping their HQ elsewhere, apparently (at least, it seems unlikely to me that one colonel managed to build such an elaborate base in such a short time on his own steam); the Senate, however, is dead, and the Fleet was robbed of its high command. It would appear that in the aftermath, the Tal Shiar's handpicked political officers seized control of the Fleet (as apparently they can do - recall how Troi got back to Federation space after being abducted and altered to appear to be such a political officer).
In other words, aside from the imagination of one halfbreed would-be Empress, the Romulan Star Empire no longer exists. It ceased to be the day a supernova shockwave shattered their planet with little warning, destroying the seat of a highly-centralized government.
I'd give real-world examples, but people get up in arms when I do that. Suffice to say, it's quite a believable scenario, given the circumstances. Now, D'tan could well have decided he would revive the RSE on a new homeworld, still disavowed the Tal Shiar, and the plotline would proceed pretty much the same aside from using an IRW prefix - but he's an idealist. He wants to replace the Empire with a Republic, much as the French did in 1789. (Of course, France was ruled by an Emperor once again in 1804...)
In my opinion, the writers are following the roman setup. Going from empire to republic, etc. Following new ideas like calling soldiers up from the common ranks instead of the from the wealthy aristocracy.
That being said. I think it is more than the Hobus nova that ended the RSE. First, Hakeev seemed to know what was coming. So he shifts elements loyal to him to isolated minor outposts. His superiors probably thought he was taking an exile for being slapped down as an egotistical fool. As a former military science officer he knew where the back up military bases were and who he would need to silence. Awefully odd for a huge and costly military base to be totally abandoned after a disaster. Especially when the nation will need that support. (I speak of the Vault) Hobus was a decapitation strike by Hakeev to give him the Tal Shi'ar and through them the military and the empire. After all we do not see any imperial military ships or crew. Nothing but Tal Shi'ar vessels. From a civilian organization. This is the equivalent of the CIA crewing the US Navy. Only way possible, is every major military head is gone. And they obviously had bases off the home world. But none of those commanders seem to be around any more.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
As an aside, the romulans at their invention were based on the Chinese. Since time immerorial the Chinese have followed an Emperor only today he is called "Chairman" The position remains the same, the people remain the same, only the name has changed.
Thats exactly what it means.
Its a Prefix that is canonicly limited to the first and experimental version of a new class of ship.
The way the Excelsior, the NX-2000 became NCC-2000 when her trial runs were complete.
So having people fly around in sovereigns, intrepids, Miranda's and what not with an NX prefix is pretty absurd.
I agree in principle, but we are frozen in 2409, even three years after STO began, apart from time-travel missions and the early (pre-rediscovery of Dewa-III/Mol'Rihan) Romulan missions. Perhaps when (and if) time begins to move forward, it would be worthwhile to revisit the X in these ship prefixes and alter them to something more reasonable.
Now you only need to explain why a Republic designed ship can't be captured and rechristened by the Empire.
---
A sense of superiority in the Tal Shi'ar. It would also be why they do not go out and start flying klingon and federation ships they could capture.
After all why use vessels of inferior life forms? And that looks easy looking to the two major factions. Now look at how Hakeev speaks to you in the beginning? 'When will you colonists learn your place?' He is aristocracy, he can not concieve the idea of commoners having value beyond fodder. I doubt he was alone in his thinking in the higher echelons. So why would they use a design made by these low lifes?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Be fair, there is one planet that concedes cold (Rure Penthe) and one that concedes extreme heat (Nukara) For the others they assumed either your (can be made invisible) armour or your force field will keep you warm/cool. :rolleyes:
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
You're right. I'm being unfair. Nothing beats elaborate excuses to have a bunch of naked elfs in your party at any cost. As long as they don't fly with nasty letters in space.
---
And yet, the surviving RSE military was and is strong enough enough to hold back ravenous klingons from conquering the RSE during its vulnerable moments. Its in the path to 20xx, and also common sense. Otherwise there would be no green on the map, just more red.
--Red Annorax