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Is It Time to Split PVP
lobstercat
Member Posts: 51 Arc User
Has STO progressed to a point to split PVP. I dont do a lot of PVP but join to have a bit of fun and something different. I joined a match against a premade, who will remain nameless. As soon as they were known 3 of the team members just left saying it was Blah Blah and useless to try and no fun against them, then the fourth left just me verses the premade.
I must say the ship put up the good fight but in the end it was pointless.\
This is not to disrespect the premade's who obviously take the time to build their ships and hone their skills and tactics for PVP (except for the A-wipe who constantly gloated after his team annialated someone) But really is it fun knowing the outcome and annialation a PUG group that doesnt really work togeather.
I know their is the PVP camp which enourages and train for PVP participation but still without a group its still pointless Premade vs Pug.
What I think PVP needs is to be split into two queues.
1. The PVP Arena Queue as it is now where team members can join as Premades and fight other Premades. And individuals could aslo join. Basically nothing changes with the current queue. Premades could fight Premades and/or individuals.
2. A PUG PVP Arena Queue which you can only join as individuals. You cannot join as a team. Any Premade teams would be split between the teams allowing for a more balanced situation. They may even find themselve fighting their teammates.
This may also bring back players to PVP who basically avoid the PVP queue because of Premades.
Just a thought
I must say the ship put up the good fight but in the end it was pointless.\
This is not to disrespect the premade's who obviously take the time to build their ships and hone their skills and tactics for PVP (except for the A-wipe who constantly gloated after his team annialated someone) But really is it fun knowing the outcome and annialation a PUG group that doesnt really work togeather.
I know their is the PVP camp which enourages and train for PVP participation but still without a group its still pointless Premade vs Pug.
What I think PVP needs is to be split into two queues.
1. The PVP Arena Queue as it is now where team members can join as Premades and fight other Premades. And individuals could aslo join. Basically nothing changes with the current queue. Premades could fight Premades and/or individuals.
2. A PUG PVP Arena Queue which you can only join as individuals. You cannot join as a team. Any Premade teams would be split between the teams allowing for a more balanced situation. They may even find themselve fighting their teammates.
This may also bring back players to PVP who basically avoid the PVP queue because of Premades.
Just a thought
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STO Forum member since before February 2010.
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FvF Ground Arena
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FvF Space Arena
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There are currently 12 PvP queues, of which you can only queue for 3. Those 3 - well, that also includes PvE queues (you can only queue 3 out of the combined possible PvP and PvE queues)...
Were you to split the queues in the manner suggested...
...you're now looking at 24 queues.
Given how long some folks wait for queues as is, doubling them? Could be painful.
Some have suggested doing away with the FvF, FvK, and KvK...that would drop you to 4 queues, and then splitting them would only take you to 8 queues...even fewer queues than we have now! You could actually add another game type for ground and space, and then you'd still only be at the 12 queues we've got now.
Something else to consider is that many individual queue systems out there in the gaming world...well, it's easy enough for folks to get on TS/Vent/etc and coordinate the 3-2-1-queue! They tend to sport pretty good chances of getting in together.
As a final thing to consider, there's a Tyler Durden channel that's running where they do 5v5 mix-n-match matches where you don't have to worry about facing premades or having folks drop off your team because you're facing a premade...
Maybe increasing the number of queues will increase PVP participants, but I do see your point. A PUG queue would probably increase whereas the Premade queue would in all most likely decrease. They would have to organise matches or wait for other premades.
Oh and thanks for the channel info, I didnt know about that one - will pass it onto others, Thanks
Might also see folks in the OrganizedPvP channels asking folks to Z up instead of X up for those kind of matches.
Then there's folks like not-Mini (heh, EmoeJoe) who'll organize some 10v10 matches as well.
Folks in OPvP will also put together PUGmades, where they at least know folks won't bail should they come across a Premade...and you won't have to deal with the AFKer issue on your team, etc, etc, etc.
Also have a seperate 'Premade' queue
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
That's what I generally try to push for...with Cryptic having added the Romulans and the potential for other such factions down the road...there's really not much FvF, FvK, or KvK going on anyway. Why not just take the RvB that step further, eh?
But being Cynical, it aint going to happen is it? Cryptic has bigger fish to fry
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
This would result in 2 Qs: Allrandom Ranked Premade, and Allrandom Non-ranked Solo.
So it really is a random draw to minimize premeditated combat even in premades. I understand this would really TRIBBLE with those using private cue rooms, but I guess that can be a 3 "Q" where its Private Matches, AR-TP and AR-SO.
I'd totally play the heck out of AR-SO, like in a galaxy far far away! XD
After that, add PVP ranks and PVP rep trains, one for ARRP and another for ARSO. That's a LOT of grinding and dil to do. I'm sure the bean counters would love my idea........
...oops. <.<
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I have to disagree with this. It's nothing new. I disagree with it every time I see somebody say it.
It's not a team 5v5 queue. It's a queue.
Much like you do not log into the game with a team, you do not log into a lobby and have to form a team to enter the game, and much like you never have to form a team to do anything in the game...it's not a team 5v5 queue.
It's a queue that will put you into teams of 5, sure. Same as over in PvE, no doubt about that.
But a team is not a requirement...a team is a luxury. They could remove the option to queue as a team and what would change, eh? It's a luxury...some folks abuse that - some folks don't.
If it weren't for the folks abusing it, then most folks would likely ridicule anybody that was complaining about Premades. Even certain Premades will complain about other certain Premades for abusing it - because it reflects poorly on all of them, and they all have to deal with the garbage later.
So don't focus on the PUG guy - berate the abusive Premades and thank the non-abusive Premades. Don't lump them all in together, because they're not all like that...
edit: Heck, sometimes you can bring it up in OPvP and get one of the other Premades to go into the queues to stomp them.
Balancing teams based on career, ships, and to an extent skill levels.
You will get fair, hard-fought, games there.
If one match is lopsided, the next will aim to correct that.
Most players, who don't PvP, don't because they do not enjoy playing the game. They just enjoy feeling like winners and collecting rewards. These are the players (the majority I suspect) who go through their dailies on the "Normal" difficulty setting, then boast about how they dominated the NPC's.
Put those players in a situation where they have to put forth the effort to achieve victory against overwhelming odds... well... those are the players who abandon their teammates and whine about Premades (which they cannot be certain are premades) and OP ships/consoles/abilities (which they can always get for themselves).
It's not that I fault these players. They've been conditioned by a game that is too easy to play.
Completely agree here... Tyler Durden is a great channel to belong to and participate in, regardless of your skill level (in regards to PvP).
If there is to be any change to the Pick-Up Group Queues, I think the simplest and most effective change would be to simply only allow individuals to queue. This will somewhat randomize the teams to eliminate the full pre-made, or even OrganizedPvP Channel made teams.
If you want to fly with your pre-made... join OrganizedPvP and announce you are looking to battle someone. Tyler Durden specifically will break apart teams to make an attempt at balance... OrganizedPvP is for team matches.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
This is the part that is unfortunately not going to work.
PvP fleets have PvPers that are online very often with their fleet/friends.
They can ask "any premades online" every day for a week and never have anyone pipe up to accept a match.
That's the simple reality of it.
Hopping into the queues is what they do for fun, to test builds and hopefully meet (or intercept
I understand why being on the business end of a premade can be a short, brutal affair for a PUG - but taking away the queues completely will just kill the whole concept of PvPing with your friends and fleet.
Call me elitist, but all arguments aside - PvP in the queues is first and foremost a team based environment.
Is it the fault of the teams that brought teams, to fight other teams?
Or do the individuals who did not bring a team to a team fight also bear some responsibility?
I get it, some people don't want to think or put effort into anything they do in their hobby time.
Unfortunately for them PvP is not casual, and is the deep end of the pool.
I recognize some fleets actively do go out with the intent to PUGstomp but I'll also say that not every fleet is like this and many really do want a good, fun, fight.
Ahh Ulti, ya know i love ya right?
The problem as I see it tho, is that there is no middle ground. This is not the fault of the players (or premade). The queue experience as someone new to PvP, who hasnt developed the contacts to make a team to run with, and begin to excel with is turned off by the experience. You saved me once from throwing in the towel if you recall.
Not every player has access to someone to encourage and help them improve. Few participate in the forums, so are not aware of things such as PvP Bootcamp, or the channels we mention.
We know that PvP needs more players. More teams... more cheeks in seats. The fact is, the queues (most players first interaction) are brutal... and make you want to never play again. So we lose potential PvP advocates this way.
There is no sense of sportsmanship or fair play in the queues. The worst of the broken is used there. The better games are in the Tournies, Tyler Durden and etc... but we need to get the player there first. Premades rolling over new/inexperienced players does nothing to help PvP in general.
Not directed at Ulti, just in general... If you see you are far outclassing a group... pull back. Go 4 on 5, or 3 on 5... whatever... offer suggestion (not L2P, or laugh at them), or name calling (Noob etc.) Make the game interesting to them. Send out information about PvP Bootcamp sessions (nicely). Who knows... that noob your team just stomped and humiliated may turn out to be a member of the next premade that will make premade v premade matches more available.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Saying there'd be too many queues is not really valid, if you're signing up to pug you're not likely to also be signed up for a premade queue.
Personally, I think the best way would be a simple check when you queue up. If you're in a full premade, you go into a premade queue, if you're solo, you go into the pug queue. If you're in a team that isn't full, you can't queue up.
Make the FvF and KvK players deteam (if they queue as team) and then simply mix randomly players for both teams. It will be harder for FvK but then you can put the queue limit on 10v10 and start two matches at once while randomly assigning players to each games.
I would avoid RvB queues. First Klinks and Feds are at war (still), second they are only main factions and third it's good to have some sort of enemy, not just "training" R and B teams.
For all those that say "create teams, join this or that chanell" - NO. If someone wants it - sure. But it should not be mandatory and you want to make it this way. As well you could ask Cryptic to make the PvP queues available only for premade 5-person teams and delete PUGs.
Premades have private matches. This should be only place where pre-made teams are allowed to fight in PvP.
Surprisngly... I see the exact opposite. I see extremely few teams looking for matches in OPvP. I see individuals looking for teams, or teams forming... but those teams head straight to the queues.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
ROFLStomp comes to mind and ego trip. Sometimes they want to give themselves the confidence and a sense of false secruity.
When they meet a proper premade, they will get roflstomped themselves by becoming so lazy and unable to adapt builds.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
You can't save everyone.
I took the initiative, you took the initiative.
Most players posting here who actually PvP, or who have joined OPvP has taken at least some level of initiative.
Let's turn this around for a second.
Let's take those same players, let's put them into an Elite STF, an Elite Crystalline Entity.
They haven't come to the forums, they don't have friends to draw on, they don't belong to any channel to do those missions.
What takes good players 3 to 5 minutes to complete, takes some of them well over 45 minutes.
That's right, some people still take 45 minutes to do an ISE.
Does any decent player really like the state of that content? How easy it is?
That kind of content got demolished in terms of challenge very specifically to cater to the kinds of players you describe.
What have those players learned from the experience? What have they added to the overall gaming experience for others?
If any of the recent PUG CCEs I've done on a lark are indication, they have learned exactly Zero.
To me, when people ask for the PUBLIC queue system to cater solely to individual casual PUGgers, they are asking for the same thing as the silly faceroll fest that has become of PvE - which is to say "dumbing it down".
There are already two full PvP environments most Premades tend to ignore or eschew, Kerrat & C&H - why should Arena also be specifically sectioned off to only cater to one specific playstyle?
Answer me honestly, how frequently do you do PUG CCE, PUG ESTFs, PUG NWS?
Compare it to how often you do that content on a team - what is basically a "premade".
Now ask yourself why you prefer one way over the other, and then ask yourself how you would feel if the game forced you into the first one.
Honestly, Naz and I alone as healers entered the queue yesterday and people accused us of "premade pugstomping". It's ridiculous, and it comes down to egos not liking to lose. Most premades only enter the queues to test and to try and catch other premades who won't fight if asked. We even apologize when it's super lopsided because its boring and not fun for anyone.
Instead of making more semi populated queues why don't people get some friends or understand that you will be at a disadvantage if you are in a team environment solo.
This is exactly why I run most STF's in Channel Private matches (many with you, I might add). Where the caliber of the player is better.If you want to run a CSE with 12 Minutes (or more) on the clock... you know where to go... You don't hit the queues, you create a private match.
To that end, if you are looking for a better quality opponent for PvP (fun, fair, and balanced fight)... why would you go to the queues? Why wouldn't you use the OPvP channel?
I monitor OPvP whenever I am on... I can count on one hand the number of times I've witnessed a premade looking for a team to fight... now... it might be there are other channels that I don't belong to... and I will concede that I do not see everything that is put out there.
Now, regarding difficulty of content... you know I have been a long time advocate of additional levels of difficulty... my personal belief is that all "Elite" STF's should be nearly as hard to complete as No Win Scenario. Rename the current Elite STF's to Advanced, then really add another level of difficulty.
I'm also not saying that PvP should be "easy". Not once have I said that. Even under my suggestion that you can only queue solo, there will be times players get wiped... many individual players can wipe the floor with an unprepared/inexperienced PvP'er (or even a full team of inexperience players). However, the point is... if you randomize the teams a bit more in the queues (as I suggested) you'll end up with a better chance at a well rounded match). There would be a better chance that the inexperienced player, gets matched with a couple of good premade players... who can offer some hints/tips or point them in the right direction.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Interesting that there is no indication that this is how it is supposed to be when you queue.
I am not even disagreeing with you. All I am saying is in a PUG... it should be completely random. It would lessen the complaints and hostility towards PvP.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
I am not asking it be dumbed down at all.
You aren't forced into a solo team environment... you are free (just like ESTF's CCE, and NWS) to queue or to form private matches in PvP.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
You know it's team based play because its 5 v 5 teams, unlike kerrat where you aren't autoteamed. It also has a "queue team" button.
With split Qs you will "catch other premades" much easier, just enter with your team in "only Team Qs" and you will not need to apologize for roflstoping pugs.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)