This is exactly why I run most STF's in Channel Private matches (many with you, I might add). Where the caliber of the player is better. If you want to run a CSE with 12 Minutes (or more) on the clock... you know where to go... You don't hit the queues, you create a private match.
Well you kind of missed what was getting at.
The STFs are always there waiting for you, this is not true of PvP.
Imagine you put your 5 man STF team together, click "join team" and it says "sorry, the Borg don't want to face your premade. Please split your team of friends and join separately.".
To that end, if you are looking for a better quality opponent for PvP (fun, fair, and balanced fight)... why would you go to the queues? Why wouldn't you use the OPvP channel?
Because sometimes when you ask if there are any premades on, you don't get an answer.
Because sometimes you can catch another premade in queues for a spontaneous fight.
Because we PvP in this game for fun, and only being "allowed" to pvp when there is another premade on would mean much less PvP happening for all of us.
However, the point is... if you randomize the teams a bit more in the queues (as I suggested) you'll end up with a better chance at a well rounded match).
You might, or you might not.
What you will definitely end up with is no way to play with your friends and fleet, things that used to be pretty much a given in MMOs.
Playing with my friends and fleet is what I enjoy about PvP.
Trying to corral a few headless chickens who can't even distribute their own shields much less follow simple directions? Sorry I would rather see PvP removed from the game first.
There would be a better chance that the inexperienced player, gets matched with a couple of good premade players... who can offer some hints/tips or point them in the right direction.
There is an equal chance, right now, that you will actually get grouped with people who will ignore target calling, who will use powers randomly, chase other players off on their own and get killed.
I don't care for 'solutions' that amount to accommodating that.
I took the initiative to learn and get better. They can do the same.
Although you mentioned splitting Arena, keep in mind what this would mean for the queues, eh?
As a final thing to consider, there's a Tyler Durden channel that's running where they do 5v5 mix-n-match matches where you don't have to worry about facing premades or having folks drop off your team because you're facing a premade...
Well if we get rid of FvK and have cross faction pvp that will get rid of the too many queues problem.
As for Tyler Durden it is fun sometimes but since teams are evenly balanced both have lots of healers and everyone is on teamspeak so feels kind of like premade matches. but if you join the queue and no premades are in it sometimes you get matches where neither team has healers and can be pretty fun and fast paced, and no having to use teamspeak since chances are the other team isnt on it either so you can keep listening to music. Sometimes people like the chaos and randomness of the queues.
With split Qs you will "catch other premades" much easier, just enter with your team in "only Team Qs" and you will not need to apologize for roflstoping pugs.
Split queues will reduce the number and frequency of premade pvp matches, and make small groups of 2 or 3 friends unable to play together. This HURTS pvp rather than helping it.
I don't know how else to explain it to you. Maybe if you did premade and pugmade pvp as well as solo kirking it you would have a better basis to comprehend the whole dynamic. It's no different from any MMO, FPS, or group based game. Team based play will always dominate team based scenarios. Instead of trying to change the scenario, play the ones that cater to your preferred game style (C&H, Kerrat) or get a group or join a pugmade. Trying to change a mechanic that has been in place since pre beta because you don't want to play as a group and would actually reduce the amount of pvp taking place just isn't a good idea.
There should be a q for teams and one for pugs. If not do that then at the very least give a prompt letting the people that are going to be fighting the pre made know it's a pre made so they may then choose to decline taking that match. It's zero fun going in and fighting a team to be crushed 15 to 0. If I see it's a pre made, I just leave.
I still don't think 'pre-mades' are the problem. It's a 'pro v. amateur' problem.
You don't learn to play football (soccer to most of you) by challenging Manchester United; you do it by playing other amateurs, and working your way up.
I appreciate and applaud that the PvP community has gone to some lengths to accommodate this, but the measures taken are all far less convenient that just joining a queue and hoping; so most players won't take advantage of these things. An investment of time and effort to get good at PvP is one thing, an investment of time and effort just to organise a single beginner level game is something else.
We really need a proper, easy to access, learning environment; preferably where the game is a bit simpler and more streamlined, to avoid overwhelming new PvPers. Lower tier PvP should do the trick in theory, but hardly anybody bothers with PvP before endgame (as I recently discovered to my great annoyance while levelling my Rommie toon).
A tank full of sharks is no place to learn to swim, no matter how many helpful experienced swimmers may be in there with you.
For one thing I have been in this situation before, in other games (SWG most notably), where I would constantly be looking for ways to organize premade matches vs other premade teams. it was a nightmare because the queue system there was also a double blind like this one, and the community was, to say the least, much more immature and trollish.
So from that respect I totally get the mentality of the premade vs pug conundrum.
From the other side of the box, the premade group of players is a very small exclusive club in almost every mmo out there. The 1 percent of the 1 percent usually. So this would be designing a game mechanic specifically to cater to the smallest niche group within the game.
The post above mine illustrates this point "pro vs amateur." Quite frankly you cannot assume that because someone isnt a member of some known elitist fleet premade squad, that they are a bad player or pvper. Not only is that alienating to the player, but it is also frankly insulting (it did strike a bit of a nerve with me personally but that is par for the course as I am not a member of the aforementioned elite fleets)
What about players like me? Teamspeak users that do not want to devote the entirety of their playing time to organizing instead of just playing. I just want to play, know what I mean? Serious business is all good, but jesus I got burned out on that a couple years ago.
We are one of the largest fleets in STO (we have both a fed tier 5 with 500 members, and a kdf tier 4 with 450 members) but the number of hardcore PvPers is countable on one, maybe two hands. The rest of the members of the fleet are PvP casual or entirely PvE in nature.
Sisko, me, Zetto, Dexy, and a couple other people. You might have come across us, you might have rolled us 15-0, but we do run fleet premades in the queues all the time. But rarely do we have a full team of five on at the same time (normally its anywhere from 2-4 of us).
So what about us? And others like us? Are we merely amateurs that get stuck to the pug queues because the 1 percent of 1 percent "need" something more than the private team function?
Just curious, and hopefully this didnt come off as abrasive or even whiney as it seems to read.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
For one thing I have been in this situation before, in other games (SWG most notably), where I would constantly be looking for ways to organize premade matches vs other premade teams. it was a nightmare because the queue system there was also a double blind like this one, and the community was, to say the least, much more immature and trollish.
So from that respect I totally get the mentality of the premade vs pug conundrum.
From the other side of the box, the premade group of players is a very small exclusive club in almost every mmo out there. The 1 percent of the 1 percent usually. So this would be designing a game mechanic specifically to cater to the smallest niche group within the game.
The post above mine illustrates this point "pro vs amateur." Quite frankly you cannot assume that because someone isnt a member of some known elitist fleet premade squad, that they are a bad player or pvper. Not only is that alienating to the player, but it is also frankly insulting (it did strike a bit of a nerve with me personally but that is par for the course as I am not a member of the aforementioned elite fleets)
What about players like me? Teamspeak users that do not want to devote the entirety of their playing time to organizing instead of just playing. I just want to play, know what I mean? Serious business is all good, but jesus I got burned out on that a couple years ago.
We are one of the largest fleets in STO (we have both a fed tier 5 with 500 members, and a kdf tier 4 with 450 members) but the number of hardcore PvPers is countable on one, maybe two hands. The rest of the members of the fleet are PvP casual or entirely PvE in nature.
Sisko, me, Zetto, Dexy, and a couple other people. You might have come across us, you might have rolled us 15-0, but we do run fleet premades in the queues all the time. But rarely do we have a full team of five on at the same time (normally its anywhere from 2-4 of us).
So what about us? And others like us? Are we merely amateurs that get stuck to the pug queues because the 1 percent of 1 percent "need" something more than the private team function?
Just curious, and hopefully this didnt come off as abrasive or even whiney as it seems to read.
All I mean when I insist on 'Pro vs Amateur' is that 'Premade vs PUG' is basically a complaint about teamwork. Thing is, that isn't always what people mean when they complain about premades; so we end up arguing about the wrong things.
We can assume that good players at least understand the value of teamwork, or they probably wouldn't have come to be considered good in the first place; so 'Pro vs Amateur' still covers the 'Premade vs PUG' stuff, but also covers skill/ability level. Therefore I consider it a better fit for what most of these discussions are actually about.
---EDIT---
Besides, I can't help but wonder how many of these 'premades' we hear about really were pre-made? People just tend to assume a premade when they get stomped; but there's nothing to say they weren't facing another PUG that just happened to have better players in it. I assume that the word 'premade' is getting thrown around too much; and that it is concealing the real issues.
Has STO progressed to a point to split PVP. I dont do a lot of PVP but join to have a bit of fun and something different. I joined a match against a premade, who will remain nameless. As soon as they were known 3 of the team members just left saying it was Blah Blah and useless to try and no fun against them, then the fourth left just me verses the premade.
I must say the ship put up the good fight but in the end it was pointless.\
This is not to disrespect the premade's who obviously take the time to build their ships and hone their skills and tactics for PVP (except for the A-wipe who constantly gloated after his team annialated someone) But really is it fun knowing the outcome and annialation a PUG group that doesnt really work togeather.
I know their is the PVP camp which enourages and train for PVP participation but still without a group its still pointless Premade vs Pug.
What I think PVP needs is to be split into two queues.
1. The PVP Arena Queue as it is now where team members can join as Premades and fight other Premades. And individuals could aslo join. Basically nothing changes with the current queue. Premades could fight Premades and/or individuals.
2. A PUG PVP Arena Queue which you can only join as individuals. You cannot join as a team. Any Premade teams would be split between the teams allowing for a more balanced situation. They may even find themselve fighting their teammates.
This may also bring back players to PVP who basically avoid the PVP queue because of Premades.
Just a thought
I LOVE YOUR IDEA to each their own, and let them eat cake.
I stopped PvPing regularly after the release of the subspace console. Yeah they nerfed it, but it was just enough to remind me how unfun PvP has become.
The Valdore console super healing romulan shields.
Romulan pets with scramble sensors.
Romulan boffs with CrtD/H.
Romulan singularity powers.
Danubes that spew warp plasma (or whatever it's called) and hold you in tractor beams while firing chronitons at you.
Web mines.
Buffed tractor beam mines.
Tachyon mines.
Nimbus pirates with extends and SNB.
Matches mostly made up of Romulan ships, Jem'hadar attack ships and Recluses.
Consecutive matches against pre/pugmades
omg took me 45 mins to do KASE today, stuck with feds with no teeth, the part that took the longest was the borg scimitar. It dragged on so long. Expecting FAW to kill the boss and kill probes is a joke.
lol, my a2b faw build has no problems melting probes and all the TRIBBLE on that map. It's the funnest STF build other than some of Hus's crazy torp builds.
It was time to split the queues when PvP was just a footnote on a design document somewhere at Cryptic HQ. Even if the group isn't a hardcore every-ship-and-every-BOff-slot-synergised-honest-to-goodness-premade, just teaming up with 5 players is a pretty big advantage over 5 random folks thrown together. I mean, at the very least, the queued together group has the advantage of asking/seeing what everyone's in and assessing their general strengths before they queue, thereby having at the very least the ability to accurately assess their strengths and weaknesses.
They've not been separated for so long now that I don't see a point in Cryptic revamping them short of finally deciding to get off their duff and and dedicate a full season-level development cycle to PvP in the first place.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
I will have to agree with the OP . many others i play with feel the same way, we like to pvp and some of us are prety good, but when were playing alone and going up against a premade when your pugging it sucks. There needs to be a seperate q for people who are just pugging it .
I speak for a large number of players probably somewhere in the range of 1300 who are in several fleets under my command, and i dont hesitate to believe that they would feel the same way about this situation.
how hard could it be cryptic/perfect world ? also when are we gonna get some other types of pvp game play, for example: last man standing ect...
Anyone who thinks this would work hasent considered the minimal number of people active in pvp. Its a long enough wait getting a que to pop, diluting the pool by splitting the ques will just make it worse, and even the stf ques are easy enough to synch yourself onto a friendly team, I do it all the time while I pug stfs with a fed friend while I am on my kdf.
What might work is an implimented 'rank' system, like a simple elo stat where people could join ranked games or unranked. The tryhards would mostly stick to the ranked ques for bragging rights, and casuals can stay in unranked. It wont magically protect casual players from the veterans at the other side of the learning curve, but it may allow some players to enjoy the match.
I think there is more problems in pvp then getting pug stomped that could be addressed, like spiralling to the top of the maps, hour long matches with too many healers, insta-vape builds, fbp/rsp/immunity builds, screen clutter spam... etc.
Has STO progressed to a point to split PVP. I dont do a lot of PVP but join to have a bit of fun and something different. I joined a match against a premade, who will remain nameless. As soon as they were known 3 of the team members just left saying it was Blah Blah and useless to try and no fun against them, then the fourth left just me verses the premade.
I must say the ship put up the good fight but in the end it was pointless.\
This is not to disrespect the premade's who obviously take the time to build their ships and hone their skills and tactics for PVP (except for the A-wipe who constantly gloated after his team annialated someone) But really is it fun knowing the outcome and annialation a PUG group that doesnt really work togeather.
I know their is the PVP camp which enourages and train for PVP participation but still without a group its still pointless Premade vs Pug.
What I think PVP needs is to be split into two queues.
1. The PVP Arena Queue as it is now where team members can join as Premades and fight other Premades. And individuals could aslo join. Basically nothing changes with the current queue. Premades could fight Premades and/or individuals.
2. A PUG PVP Arena Queue which you can only join as individuals. You cannot join as a team. Any Premade teams would be split between the teams allowing for a more balanced situation. They may even find themselve fighting their teammates.
This may also bring back players to PVP who basically avoid the PVP queue because of Premades.
To go along with that could we have abilities doing different damage to NPCs as opposed to players?
I mean tachyon beam 3 against a player can drain a decent amount, same with tet glider and using all sorts of other things and is sort of balanced. Against an NPC with hundreds of thousands of shield points and the ability to regen half of that in seconds it's just trollin how differently they perform.
For pvp is to survive in this game, Arena needs to be removed. Or changed to something meaningful.
===post above is by ivantomdisplay===
EDIT: Closed for necroing an old thread. Remember, if a thread has been inactive for 30 days, you should not post to it. Feel free to create a new thread on the subject if you would like to discuss further ~BranFlakes
[10:49] [Combat (Self)] Your Proton Barrage deals 96581 (43411) Proton(Critical) to Seto.
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
Comments
So does Cap and Hold.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Well you kind of missed what was getting at.
The STFs are always there waiting for you, this is not true of PvP.
Imagine you put your 5 man STF team together, click "join team" and it says "sorry, the Borg don't want to face your premade. Please split your team of friends and join separately.".
Because sometimes when you ask if there are any premades on, you don't get an answer.
Because sometimes you can catch another premade in queues for a spontaneous fight.
Because we PvP in this game for fun, and only being "allowed" to pvp when there is another premade on would mean much less PvP happening for all of us.
You might, or you might not.
What you will definitely end up with is no way to play with your friends and fleet, things that used to be pretty much a given in MMOs.
Playing with my friends and fleet is what I enjoy about PvP.
Trying to corral a few headless chickens who can't even distribute their own shields much less follow simple directions? Sorry I would rather see PvP removed from the game first.
There is an equal chance, right now, that you will actually get grouped with people who will ignore target calling, who will use powers randomly, chase other players off on their own and get killed.
I don't care for 'solutions' that amount to accommodating that.
I took the initiative to learn and get better. They can do the same.
But um, that's exactly the issue.
Currently, there's only some semblance of a queue popping because you've got:
Total PUGs
Partial PUGs
Trade PUGs/PUGmades
Fleet PUGs
Fleet Premades
Wait, why are those different colors? Cause if you split the queues without merging the queues, that's how you're splitting them.
So yeah, there would be too many queues...imho.
Well if we get rid of FvK and have cross faction pvp that will get rid of the too many queues problem.
As for Tyler Durden it is fun sometimes but since teams are evenly balanced both have lots of healers and everyone is on teamspeak so feels kind of like premade matches. but if you join the queue and no premades are in it sometimes you get matches where neither team has healers and can be pretty fun and fast paced, and no having to use teamspeak since chances are the other team isnt on it either so you can keep listening to music. Sometimes people like the chaos and randomness of the queues.
But you can't queue a whole group of 10 people. As opposed to CE, Starbase, or anything else you can set up and enter.
Split queues will reduce the number and frequency of premade pvp matches, and make small groups of 2 or 3 friends unable to play together. This HURTS pvp rather than helping it.
I don't know how else to explain it to you. Maybe if you did premade and pugmade pvp as well as solo kirking it you would have a better basis to comprehend the whole dynamic. It's no different from any MMO, FPS, or group based game. Team based play will always dominate team based scenarios. Instead of trying to change the scenario, play the ones that cater to your preferred game style (C&H, Kerrat) or get a group or join a pugmade. Trying to change a mechanic that has been in place since pre beta because you don't want to play as a group and would actually reduce the amount of pvp taking place just isn't a good idea.
All Random Zones PUGs
All Random Zones Ranked Premades
PVP rep grinding tracks
Simple!
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Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
You don't learn to play football (soccer to most of you) by challenging Manchester United; you do it by playing other amateurs, and working your way up.
I appreciate and applaud that the PvP community has gone to some lengths to accommodate this, but the measures taken are all far less convenient that just joining a queue and hoping; so most players won't take advantage of these things. An investment of time and effort to get good at PvP is one thing, an investment of time and effort just to organise a single beginner level game is something else.
We really need a proper, easy to access, learning environment; preferably where the game is a bit simpler and more streamlined, to avoid overwhelming new PvPers. Lower tier PvP should do the trick in theory, but hardly anybody bothers with PvP before endgame (as I recently discovered to my great annoyance while levelling my Rommie toon).
A tank full of sharks is no place to learn to swim, no matter how many helpful experienced swimmers may be in there with you.
For one thing I have been in this situation before, in other games (SWG most notably), where I would constantly be looking for ways to organize premade matches vs other premade teams. it was a nightmare because the queue system there was also a double blind like this one, and the community was, to say the least, much more immature and trollish.
So from that respect I totally get the mentality of the premade vs pug conundrum.
From the other side of the box, the premade group of players is a very small exclusive club in almost every mmo out there. The 1 percent of the 1 percent usually. So this would be designing a game mechanic specifically to cater to the smallest niche group within the game.
The post above mine illustrates this point "pro vs amateur." Quite frankly you cannot assume that because someone isnt a member of some known elitist fleet premade squad, that they are a bad player or pvper. Not only is that alienating to the player, but it is also frankly insulting (it did strike a bit of a nerve with me personally but that is par for the course as I am not a member of the aforementioned elite fleets)
What about players like me? Teamspeak users that do not want to devote the entirety of their playing time to organizing instead of just playing. I just want to play, know what I mean? Serious business is all good, but jesus I got burned out on that a couple years ago.
We are one of the largest fleets in STO (we have both a fed tier 5 with 500 members, and a kdf tier 4 with 450 members) but the number of hardcore PvPers is countable on one, maybe two hands. The rest of the members of the fleet are PvP casual or entirely PvE in nature.
Sisko, me, Zetto, Dexy, and a couple other people. You might have come across us, you might have rolled us 15-0, but we do run fleet premades in the queues all the time. But rarely do we have a full team of five on at the same time (normally its anywhere from 2-4 of us).
So what about us? And others like us? Are we merely amateurs that get stuck to the pug queues because the 1 percent of 1 percent "need" something more than the private team function?
Just curious, and hopefully this didnt come off as abrasive or even whiney as it seems to read.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
All I mean when I insist on 'Pro vs Amateur' is that 'Premade vs PUG' is basically a complaint about teamwork. Thing is, that isn't always what people mean when they complain about premades; so we end up arguing about the wrong things.
We can assume that good players at least understand the value of teamwork, or they probably wouldn't have come to be considered good in the first place; so 'Pro vs Amateur' still covers the 'Premade vs PUG' stuff, but also covers skill/ability level. Therefore I consider it a better fit for what most of these discussions are actually about.
---EDIT---
Besides, I can't help but wonder how many of these 'premades' we hear about really were pre-made? People just tend to assume a premade when they get stomped; but there's nothing to say they weren't facing another PUG that just happened to have better players in it. I assume that the word 'premade' is getting thrown around too much; and that it is concealing the real issues.
I LOVE YOUR IDEA
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
Like my alien? Watch THE VIDEO
Need custom graphics for you or your fleet? Click HERE
But, but...what if we prefer pie?
American pie? :P
also Super Cake made of "moar powerful than cake, ice cream cake, and pie cake" put together!
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
Like my alien? Watch THE VIDEO
Need custom graphics for you or your fleet? Click HERE
FvK ground
FvK space
FvK warzone- similar to kerrat but no timers, no npc, no farming.
no FvF or KvK, no pug/pre queues
the idea of teaming cross-faction is not appealing to me. its not something that needs to be done imo.
free jkname
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The Valdore console super healing romulan shields.
Romulan pets with scramble sensors.
Romulan boffs with CrtD/H.
Romulan singularity powers.
Danubes that spew warp plasma (or whatever it's called) and hold you in tractor beams while firing chronitons at you.
Web mines.
Buffed tractor beam mines.
Tachyon mines.
Nimbus pirates with extends and SNB.
Matches mostly made up of Romulan ships, Jem'hadar attack ships and Recluses.
Consecutive matches against pre/pugmades
It's just stopped being fun.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
lol, my a2b faw build has no problems melting probes and all the TRIBBLE on that map. It's the funnest STF build other than some of Hus's crazy torp builds.
Yes and no.
It was time to split the queues when PvP was just a footnote on a design document somewhere at Cryptic HQ. Even if the group isn't a hardcore every-ship-and-every-BOff-slot-synergised-honest-to-goodness-premade, just teaming up with 5 players is a pretty big advantage over 5 random folks thrown together. I mean, at the very least, the queued together group has the advantage of asking/seeing what everyone's in and assessing their general strengths before they queue, thereby having at the very least the ability to accurately assess their strengths and weaknesses.
They've not been separated for so long now that I don't see a point in Cryptic revamping them short of finally deciding to get off their duff and and dedicate a full season-level development cycle to PvP in the first place.
I speak for a large number of players probably somewhere in the range of 1300 who are in several fleets under my command, and i dont hesitate to believe that they would feel the same way about this situation.
how hard could it be cryptic/perfect world ? also when are we gonna get some other types of pvp game play, for example: last man standing ect...
What might work is an implimented 'rank' system, like a simple elo stat where people could join ranked games or unranked. The tryhards would mostly stick to the ranked ques for bragging rights, and casuals can stay in unranked. It wont magically protect casual players from the veterans at the other side of the learning curve, but it may allow some players to enjoy the match.
I think there is more problems in pvp then getting pug stomped that could be addressed, like spiralling to the top of the maps, hour long matches with too many healers, insta-vape builds, fbp/rsp/immunity builds, screen clutter spam... etc.
It is Not time to split PVP
I like the idea. I hope it goes through.
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
Like my alien? Watch THE VIDEO
Need custom graphics for you or your fleet? Click HERE
I mean tachyon beam 3 against a player can drain a decent amount, same with tet glider and using all sorts of other things and is sort of balanced. Against an NPC with hundreds of thousands of shield points and the ability to regen half of that in seconds it's just trollin how differently they perform.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
===post above is by ivantomdisplay===
EDIT: Closed for necroing an old thread. Remember, if a thread has been inactive for 30 days, you should not post to it. Feel free to create a new thread on the subject if you would like to discuss further
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.