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amincielbleu
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A table of tanks for Season 9, April 2014
There are no proper tanks in this game. All ships and captains should be able to withstand ennemy fire for some time. However, two kinds of function come close to a tanking role as we know it from other games :
(1) In PvE, if a ship grabs agro from the majority of ennemies and keeps it without crumbling, it helps the team to raise its overall DPS. You need at least 36k of hull and at least a lieutenant-commander and a lieutenant engineer in order to perform this function whenever it is useful.
(2) In PvP matches, the "anchor" is a sturdy support ship with at least Extend Shield 3, Reverse Shield Polarity, Science Team and Hazard Emitter. The minimum for this is a Commander and a Lieutenant engineer, and a science Lieutenant.
The pragmatic reason for these statements is to put in the table of tanks a series of ships that we really want to compare with cruisers (officially named so) : Scimitar, Jem'Hadar Dreadnought, Tholian Recluse,...
Let me state this early, plainly and boldly : it is not necessary to own one of the ships listed here to experience the elite content of Star trek Online in a tanking ship. The free ship you receive when your character reaches a high level is sufficient. So is any iconic ship that might be favoured for reasons unrelated to the game mechanics. However, it's my aim to meet this axiom :
for each ship absent from this list, there is a ship in the list that can be considered as an improvement.
Click for viewing or downloading :
tank table
Legend :
"Ha'akona / F" combines the stats for the Ha'akona and for the Fleet Ha'apax (compatible with the Ha'akona vector console) ; all ships in the table have 10 consoles, except the Ha'akona who has 9.
Bridge officers are coded "4" for Cmd, "3" for Lt-Cmd, "2" for Lt and "1" for ens.
Defaut hull values are 41K-43K ; "-" means 36k-40k and "+" means 44k-45k. The default shield modifier is 110% ; "+" means 120%, "++" means 130% or more, "-" means 105% or less.
The default turn rate is in the interval [7;9] ; "+" means 10-11 ; "++" means 12 or more ; "-" means 6 or less.
A cross in the "pet" column indicates a carrier pet.
A "+" in the Com column indicates access to all three useful cruiser modes (increased threat is irrelevant) ; "-" means access to only one useful cruiser mode ; "--" means no access to cruiser modes.
For an exhaustive list of ships with all characteristics, refer to the Wiki here, here or here.
These three lists didn't help me much for my own choices. My table aims at making advantages and disadvantages appear very quickly.
A) You're an Engineer focused 100% on PvE
Until a probable update along the lines of science powers, a slot for a Cmd engineer does not perform as well as a tactical or scientific Cmd. Indeed, Cmd defensive engineering abilities are overkill in PvE and Cmd offensive engineering abilities are not very different from their Lt or Lt-Cmd counterparts. The best candidate for filling this slot is Directed Energy Modulation (DEM3) ; currently it is only marginally better than DEM1, as was debated in details in another thread. So we're looking for a tank with a tactical, scientific or universal Cmd slot.
According to this criterion, Romulans have access to two relatively cheap and very different ships : the Fleet Mogai or the Scimitar. Five other fitting ships exist, but their price is higher : the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier, the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought, the Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser, the Tholian Recluse and the Hirogen Hunter Heavy Escort. Each has unique features, except the Hirogen HHE which just seems like a JHEC without a hangar. The Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser, for example, is the only ship with cruiser modes (the "Advanced Comm array") and without the underperforming Cmd engineer slot.
You want to tank in a carrier
Caveat ! Science captains should think twice about the Aventine ("tactical Vesta"), the Fleet Kar'Fi or the Fleet VoQuv. They are not in this table because they don't fulfill the tanking criterion, but they certainly fit the role of a science carrier, which should be prefered to a tanking carrier by a science captain...
If you're a Romulan satisfied with only one hangar, the Scimitar is a cheap and powerful option. Everything else is more expensive : the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier or the Voth Bastion if only one hangar suits you, the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought or the Tholian Recluse if two hangars are needed.
The Voth Bullwark, The advanced Obelisk and the Fleet Corsair can be safely ignored because two tactical consoles are not enough (except for the Recluse thanks to unique redeeming features).
C) PvP in a big ship is occasionally on your mind
Caveat ! This should be interesting for engineer captains only.
In this case you're looking for a "4+2" design in engineering, 4 tactical consoles or more and either a turn rate of 10, or something special like five fore weapons.
The KDF have a cost advantage for a relatively nimble cruiser, namely the Fleet Tor'Kaht. Other factions must fall back on an Elachi Monbosh (or a Galor if you already own one, it is almost equivalent to the Monbosh) or a Dromias Bio-Cruiser.
If the turn rate is not an absolute priority, the Fleet Avenger (Fed) and the Fleet Mogh (KDF) are interesting. Close to our criteria, you will find the Fleet Kamarag (KDF), the Fleet Excelsior (Fed), the Apex or the Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser. Romulans have a cost disadvantage here.
D) mainly for PvP
It's a team build, no individual advice should be given here ! Your team knows what is needed, seek advice with them ! Be sure that they will require at least a "4+2" engineering design, but that doesn't say much.
Synthesis
In PvE, I cannot stress too much the usefulness of the Mogai or the JHEC, as I cannot draw too much attention towards the Scimitar and the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought. Only one ship has a wide access to cruiser modes and is not stuck with a CMD engineer ; at the same time this ship can fulfill the "anchor" role because it has a universal Cmd slot : it's the Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser. The unusual bridge setup of the Dromias Bio-Cruiser alse has something to speak for it ; we will probably see some creative builds with this ship in the near future.
Even if we're pointing out at a relatively limited number of ideal tanks, there are so many different ways to tank... It's up to you to know what you're really looking for. No ship is McGyver's swiss knife. Some like the ability to equip dual cannons, even without a good turn rate ; for the no-win scenario, for example, the turn rate is a non-issue. Likewise, some Klingons might prefer the Bortasq and its 5th tactical console to the more nimble Tor'Kaht.
The october 2013 update is probably a turning point for the role of cruisers and tanks in the game. My viewpoint is that it diminishes the number of potentially ideal ships for PvE, but it increases the differences between them. Fewer tanks, but more ways to tank... A most welcome change in any case.
There are no proper tanks in this game. All ships and captains should be able to withstand ennemy fire for some time. However, two kinds of function come close to a tanking role as we know it from other games :
(1) In PvE, if a ship grabs agro from the majority of ennemies and keeps it without crumbling, it helps the team to raise its overall DPS. You need at least 36k of hull and at least a lieutenant-commander and a lieutenant engineer in order to perform this function whenever it is useful.
(2) In PvP matches, the "anchor" is a sturdy support ship with at least Extend Shield 3, Reverse Shield Polarity, Science Team and Hazard Emitter. The minimum for this is a Commander and a Lieutenant engineer, and a science Lieutenant.
The pragmatic reason for these statements is to put in the table of tanks a series of ships that we really want to compare with cruisers (officially named so) : Scimitar, Jem'Hadar Dreadnought, Tholian Recluse,...
Let me state this early, plainly and boldly : it is not necessary to own one of the ships listed here to experience the elite content of Star trek Online in a tanking ship. The free ship you receive when your character reaches a high level is sufficient. So is any iconic ship that might be favoured for reasons unrelated to the game mechanics. However, it's my aim to meet this axiom :
for each ship absent from this list, there is a ship in the list that can be considered as an improvement.
Click for viewing or downloading :
tank table
Legend :
"Ha'akona / F" combines the stats for the Ha'akona and for the Fleet Ha'apax (compatible with the Ha'akona vector console) ; all ships in the table have 10 consoles, except the Ha'akona who has 9.
Bridge officers are coded "4" for Cmd, "3" for Lt-Cmd, "2" for Lt and "1" for ens.
Defaut hull values are 41K-43K ; "-" means 36k-40k and "+" means 44k-45k. The default shield modifier is 110% ; "+" means 120%, "++" means 130% or more, "-" means 105% or less.
The default turn rate is in the interval [7;9] ; "+" means 10-11 ; "++" means 12 or more ; "-" means 6 or less.
A cross in the "pet" column indicates a carrier pet.
A "+" in the Com column indicates access to all three useful cruiser modes (increased threat is irrelevant) ; "-" means access to only one useful cruiser mode ; "--" means no access to cruiser modes.
For an exhaustive list of ships with all characteristics, refer to the Wiki here, here or here.
These three lists didn't help me much for my own choices. My table aims at making advantages and disadvantages appear very quickly.
A) You're an Engineer focused 100% on PvE
Until a probable update along the lines of science powers, a slot for a Cmd engineer does not perform as well as a tactical or scientific Cmd. Indeed, Cmd defensive engineering abilities are overkill in PvE and Cmd offensive engineering abilities are not very different from their Lt or Lt-Cmd counterparts. The best candidate for filling this slot is Directed Energy Modulation (DEM3) ; currently it is only marginally better than DEM1, as was debated in details in another thread. So we're looking for a tank with a tactical, scientific or universal Cmd slot.
According to this criterion, Romulans have access to two relatively cheap and very different ships : the Fleet Mogai or the Scimitar. Five other fitting ships exist, but their price is higher : the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier, the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought, the Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser, the Tholian Recluse and the Hirogen Hunter Heavy Escort. Each has unique features, except the Hirogen HHE which just seems like a JHEC without a hangar. The Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser, for example, is the only ship with cruiser modes (the "Advanced Comm array") and without the underperforming Cmd engineer slot.
You want to tank in a carrierCaveat ! Science captains should think twice about the Aventine ("tactical Vesta"), the Fleet Kar'Fi or the Fleet VoQuv. They are not in this table because they don't fulfill the tanking criterion, but they certainly fit the role of a science carrier, which should be prefered to a tanking carrier by a science captain...
If you're a Romulan satisfied with only one hangar, the Scimitar is a cheap and powerful option. Everything else is more expensive : the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier or the Voth Bastion if only one hangar suits you, the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought or the Tholian Recluse if two hangars are needed.
The Voth Bullwark, The advanced Obelisk and the Fleet Corsair can be safely ignored because two tactical consoles are not enough (except for the Recluse thanks to unique redeeming features).
C) PvP in a big ship is occasionally on your mind
Caveat ! This should be interesting for engineer captains only.
In this case you're looking for a "4+2" design in engineering, 4 tactical consoles or more and either a turn rate of 10, or something special like five fore weapons.
The KDF have a cost advantage for a relatively nimble cruiser, namely the Fleet Tor'Kaht. Other factions must fall back on an Elachi Monbosh (or a Galor if you already own one, it is almost equivalent to the Monbosh) or a Dromias Bio-Cruiser.
If the turn rate is not an absolute priority, the Fleet Avenger (Fed) and the Fleet Mogh (KDF) are interesting. Close to our criteria, you will find the Fleet Kamarag (KDF), the Fleet Excelsior (Fed), the Apex or the Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser. Romulans have a cost disadvantage here.
D) mainly for PvP
It's a team build, no individual advice should be given here ! Your team knows what is needed, seek advice with them ! Be sure that they will require at least a "4+2" engineering design, but that doesn't say much.
Synthesis
In PvE, I cannot stress too much the usefulness of the Mogai or the JHEC, as I cannot draw too much attention towards the Scimitar and the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought. Only one ship has a wide access to cruiser modes and is not stuck with a CMD engineer ; at the same time this ship can fulfill the "anchor" role because it has a universal Cmd slot : it's the Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser. The unusual bridge setup of the Dromias Bio-Cruiser alse has something to speak for it ; we will probably see some creative builds with this ship in the near future.
Even if we're pointing out at a relatively limited number of ideal tanks, there are so many different ways to tank... It's up to you to know what you're really looking for. No ship is McGyver's swiss knife. Some like the ability to equip dual cannons, even without a good turn rate ; for the no-win scenario, for example, the turn rate is a non-issue. Likewise, some Klingons might prefer the Bortasq and its 5th tactical console to the more nimble Tor'Kaht.
The october 2013 update is probably a turning point for the role of cruisers and tanks in the game. My viewpoint is that it diminishes the number of potentially ideal ships for PvE, but it increases the differences between them. Fewer tanks, but more ways to tank... A most welcome change in any case.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by amincielbleu on
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Comments
Luckily for me, my favorite ship is also the best Federation cruiser.
My Orion is currently flying a hideous Marauder until she can earn the money to get into a T5 Dacoit.
My Romulan has a D'Dridex.
I have one Fed Engineer in a Mirror Cruiser because it fits his background. He also has the T5 Ambassador from the event.
My Klingon Engineer flies a Negvarr because I love how it powerslides with emergency power to engines.
When my orion gets into the Dacoit it will be my only character of more than 9 who has a fleet quality ship.
I may eventually upgrade my klingon to a fleet Tor'Kaht. But probably not until 2014.
1) The "fan approach" : pick up an iconic ship (T4 or T5), equip it with canonical weapons, make it nice and epic ; you can't be disappointed !
2) The "escort approach" : for any captain, just pick up an escort, equip it with dual (heavy) cannons, make it easy to fly ; you will pew-pew everything you want !
3) The flexible specialized approach : try to do what your profession does best, without sacrificing performance ; that's the kind of player for whom my tables are made !
For PvP, it is recommended that each ship be chosen as part of a whole team concept. The table can nonetheless help to build such a team.
My Klin uses the Mirror Vo'Quv, and again, extremely durable, as well as potent crowd control options.:cool:
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
About the only thing not tankable, are the Borg cigars in HSE. (Not that probably even the Borg Queen Diamond could tank em, given the bugged lance shots currently... still got the optional anyway out of there, so meh...)
Will have to compare this setup, with the Fleet AC, in about a week here, when my Fleet hits T5 Shipyard, so it'll be a interesting test. (If anything, the Fleet AC actually looks more 'glassy' in setup, compared to my Tac Ody setup, so I will need to fiddle a bit with it.)
1. Galor(This is escort but for some reason people seem to think that this is a cruiser)
2. FAHCR(Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit)
3. Fleet Assault Cruiser, Dkora, Kamarag/Ambassador, ABC(Adapted Battle Cruiser)
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Well, to keep it short; i thought it was time to get back to a cruiser and trying if i could get a decent build out of it without too much hassle.
Reclaimed the oddy tactical, 7x fleet advanced disruptors (dmgx2 - accx2), 3x XI blue disruptor coils and 1x cutting beam. Made kind of dem/aux2bat build out of it.
Fitted it with assimilated module, embassy XI shield/hull emitter arrays, one tachyokinetic converter, 3x mine Neut +turn's, XI VR overcharged warp core (SEP E->W SCAP SST), XII borg deflector+engine and last but not least MACO XII shields.
...I love this cruiser...
I call it, the Stoutes paradox.
We'll be very happy to hear about it. I had to make a choice about the Odyssey variant that is included in the table (already too wide), and the forums pointed out to the science variant more often than not. The tactical variant has one more tactical console (at the expense of the 4th science console).
I'll tackle the choice of a high-end ship for a science captain in the coming days. The "fan approach" and "escort approach" to the choice are of course still valid for the science captains. For sure the Vo'Quv will be part of that table, especially after the recent improvement of the pet IA and controls.
The Romulan Ha'apex is a bit toned down compared to C-store ships, which is only logical. I'm sure you don't die in that ship. The C-store version (Ha'akona) and the Fleet version have a universal slot for the Lt-Cmd Boff, along with three tactical consoles : that should add up to some significant damage (and flexibility, maybe for PvP). A 3+2+1 tactical bridge is not wasted on a cruiser as it would be on an escort : the ens slots can make use of tactical team, fire at will, either a torpedo HY/spread or a redundancy of the previous skills.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Cardassian_Galor_Class_Cruiser
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
1) Those who fly a D'Deridex really stress the importance of the projected singularity console, described as "a vengeful Gravity Well" and other enthusiastic qualifications.
2) The Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser has immediate access to two pieces of the nice Tal Shiar set, granting 20% of extra shield regeneration. With the shrapnel torpedo console (only found on the Tal Shiar Destroyer), a full set of three pieces enhances the exotic damages caused by the ship.
The Galor is by far the most frequently appreciated cruiser. I think that the good turn rate (10) is responsible for this as it is a feature that makes the gameplay more dynamic and the game simply more fun ! No equivalent exists except for the Klingons (Kamarag and Tor'Kaht). Even if it is not directly related to performance, it is an argument worthy of attention.
Cryptics devs really have some bizarre sense of humor, lol.
The original post was updated to include it. Comments have also been updated, because it is a major addition for two reasons. Firstly, the Monbosh rivals the Tor'Kaht in many ways, while being available to all factions. Secondly, its inclusion could reduce somewhat the list because the Monbosh tends to dominate some other options. However, as a Lobi ship, it will be costly, and I want to keep affordable options in the list.
I just hesitate to remove the Galor from the list (iconoclast me
It's actually strange that a cruiser in the line of the Galor has been introduced by the new lockbox. That sort of ship was sufficiently represented and every Galor's owner was happy with it. The reason to make the cardassian cruiser redundant is unclear to me, but that's not our topic here. I'll keep the Galor in the list for some time anyway, because the Monbosh's stats are still subject to changes (and maybe they should, in order to increase diversity).
If i had to say which was best overall i would go with the Scimitar, 5 forward weapon slots and 5 tac consoles is hard to beat for pve and the battle cloak with a decent turn rate is nice as well. (while the turn rate is only 7 i can tell you there is a huge difference between 5 turn rate like the D'deridex and 7 of the scimitar) The only downside is the lack of power but since both sides now have access to the leech its almost a moot point.
/ot Short answer... it is all about cash. Hand out slightly superior types and many players will be tempted to get then. /ot off
BEST SHIP EVER!!!!!! - anyone that disagrees is just wrong plane and simple.
That's my ship of choice for fun anyway.
My escort is the corvette, set up for no win scenario. love it.
My small ship is the peregrine fighter. Think its the only small ship that's fun to fly.
All my ships are called Thunderchild with the same reg (+ the 9 in front) as the original U.S.S. THUNDERCHILD. Never owned an Akira class ship though
Kobayashi Crew.
Dave@dangerousdave1701
You shouldn't underestimate the inertia rating and impulse mod. Although it doesnt really impact pve performances, it sometimes plays major roles in pvp.
1) Instead of jumping on the Monbosh, many engineers have switched to flying on an escort, namely the S'Golth, or on a Scimitar. To be sure, it was a trend initiated before the arrival of the new ships. The low performance of the Cmd engineer slot compared with a tactical Cmd slot in PvE is the probable cause of this trend. Some said they resisted the trend before, but now the S'Golth is just too good in their eyes (I would think that the same arguments could apply to the temporal destroyer a long time ago, but apparently the trend is more vivid now).
2) It has become widely accepted that tanking does not require a Cmd engineer slot in PvE, although a Lt-Cmd engineer still helps. There would be a market for a D'deridex-like pattern of bridge officers (4+3+3+1+1), but they need to be placed in different departments. Two Lt-Com engineers are welcome, provided that the Cmd slot is tactical (and presumably both ensign slots would be assigned to scientific officers). Right now that kind of ship does not exist. The ships that are currently closest to that gameplay are the Scimitar and the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought.
3) The general lesson can be formulated in one sentence. An engineer captain needs neither many nor top-graded engineer bridge officers to perform optimally.
Several ships became dominated with the recent addition of the Monbosh and of the Avenger : the Galor, the D'Kora, the Regent... Some say even the Excelsior is now obsolete, but it is yet to be confirmed in actual play. The trend followed by many engineers, namely flying a destroyer (or even a S'Golth escort) in PvE, has not been affected because the "cruiser modes" are only available to ships with a Cmd engineer, except the Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser.
Comments after the table have been duly modified to take into account the new factors. Some old recommendations persist (e.g. the Scimitar), some have changed. The Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser might be *the* PvE cruiser for the future...
Personally, My Excelsiors/Fleet Excelsiors, and MU Vo'Quv have out-tanked just about every ship you've listed, with the ERxcel maintaining a decent (not awesome but decent) damage potential, and my Vo'Quv maintaining a large CC presence, in addition to being very hard to klll.
And one skill you listed, Extend Shirlds, I do not consider that necessary. Why? because in most PuG gameplay, there is so little coordination and aiding others involved, that I have learned to use repair and shield regens skills needed to keep ME alive. Not some fool who is just out for themselves, with no thought to aiding the team. Every few days or so I re-flip that leaf, and try helping other teammates in PuG's, guess what? Still seeing people TRIBBLE them up, not helping each other, etc etc. So I don't sacrifice a skill that I could slot in something that will keep me alive, to have something that would keep someone else alive. Sorry, but that's just the way it is, and the way I feel about it.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
^This... What I have been saying since nearly the beginning of my play is that people who slot a Captain with the same type of ship (outside of Science) are doing it wrong.
Engineers are AMAZING tankers and do not NEED engineering Bridge Officers in order to tank. What they do not bring to the table is much damage boost. So what an Engineer needs is a ship that brings a lot of damage but could really use some help with its tank. So Escort type heavy damage dealers are ideal for an Engineer.
Likewise Tactical Captains cannot provide much tank to a vessel but provide a LOT of damage dealing boosts and some turn rate improvements. What needs this the most are Cruisers. Cruisers can tank themselves just fine without and Engineering captain but they turn like a road train and cannot dish out that much damage due to low Tactical BOFF and Console slots. So give them a Tactical Captain and you vastly improve on both.
They cost zen and anyone cane get them much easier than lockbox ships
They can use DHCs the Domminate DPS weapon in the game
you have all of the tank Engineering boff skills available
DHC's ........DPS
Engineering bofff skills
you can even use a Engineer in this ship and putout lots of DPS
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
(1) The Galor is out of the list because it is dominated by the Monbosh. However, if you own a Galor, don't buy a Monbosh : these ships are very similar, the 0.5% improvement is not worth the cost.
(2) The same holds about the Fleet Regent/Sovereign and the Fleet Avenger, depending on how you play it. With beams, I'm not sure that 5 fore weapons are an advantage because you are firing broadsides anyway. Bridge configurations are almost identical (and practically identical given that you are strongly induced to use the universal slot to compensate for that difference). Turn rates and hull values are slightly different, again these differences compensate each other. The ability to cloak and to equip 5 DHC's give an edge to the Avenger for the players for whom such a possibility matters.
So if you're buying your first cruiser and hesitate between a Regent and an Avenger, buy the Avenger, but if you already own a Regent, don't buy an Avenger and fly it the same way. Actually, aesthetic considerations may play a big role here