You're right i don't know what happens behind the scenes. All i know is what crpytic chooses to tell us, it was Stahl himself that said they where successful so i can only assume that he knows what he's talking about. My point about the pacing was that they came out when cryptic said they would and cryptic picked the times.
If the time frame was too fast like i said the community was open to slowing it down. i distinctly remember several threads about only 4 a year or 1 per season release this coming from the players cryptic chose the path of none. I'm sorry they picked a schedule that burned them out i'd rather have them at a pace they can keep up obviously a year break between is way too long but a few months was acceptable.
When you say that they can't do something because there will be pitchforks and torches whom do you suppose would be holding those items? It implies the player would be angry. I remember the exact opposite coming from the player base. I'd rather have featured episodes once every 3-4 months then none.
As far as if it was successful or not from the players perspective it was successful and it was represented to us from the developers to also be successful then, full stop.
It sound's to me the real failing that featured episodes had was that they where too close together to allow for proper development and that was unfortunate. I also realize this whole conversation is after the fact and nothing is really going to change. I just didn't enojy that it was being imparted that somehow our expectations were the problem. Cryptic set the schedule they planed the releases not us. If it was to fast paced and too hard that's not something we made its something cryptic chose.
Pretty much this.
It sounds like to me from the posts you've made in this thread that you were overloaded. Like Creos said, we would have understood if you had to slow down the production on these episodes.
I wish Cryptic would abandon the scale of the FEs as a five-parter. Some of them are great, but some of them are kind of lacking in terms of pacing and quality of each part. I would much rather see individual stories like "Temporal Ambassador."
I wish they would just move from one mission to the next. Maybe the development cycles could still overlap, but I think the quality would still be great. Examples:
"Let's make a Captain Proton adventure... OK, that was fun... Now let's do something with this NW stuff and have a stand-alone holodeck adventure... OK, now let's explore the Voth homeworld in a mission."
Most Foundry authors work that way unless they're making a multi-part series. It would be a more productive approach.
And so far, we're just talking art and design. What about Audio? What about QA?
you guys make new audio? If you're talking about music, then I can think of maybe six new tracks that were added in LoR. The music in this game is repetitive as hell. If you're talking about sound effects and Foley work, then that's hardly a real stretch of resources; how many 'pew pew' noises can you really need?
And if you're talking about voice-over (and I think that might be a large part of the audio required), then how about you just leave it. Seriously, this game as a major voice quality problem. Some of the actors are great and give really good performances; others are God-awful, I don't know if it's poor range or poor skills, but they just shatter the suspension of disbelief to Ed Wood levels.
I'd rather have no voice-over than shoddy inconsistency all over the place.
Even if you're JUST talking about characters and some specific location, all that story would still have to go through Kestrel. And so far, we're just talking art and design. What about Audio? What about QA? You're trying to segregate this hypothetical team from the rest of the devs, but that just doesn't function. We are one big mass of intertwined limbs, you can't chop one off and expect it to do anything but bleed.
The story 'Bibal' and rough outline detailing out the various characters, their back rounds, personalities, and those details would need ran past Kestrel during pre-production yes but after that aside from minor standard quick info updates nothing more would be needed there. Audio would either use existing or if you wanted to go for broke (voice actors and all that) then it could become cumbersome. QA would be minimal as the existing assets already are known quantities aside from the single set piece created once again during pre-production phase.
I fail to see why the other devs would need to be involved. It really sounds like their are far too many cooks in Cryptics kitchen stressing and debating minor decision details that amount to little more than personal preference (should it be red or blue?). While it is dangerous to give too much responsibility to a single individual design by committee leads strait to mediocrity. And moves at a snails pace.
It happens all the time in other media. Dozens of comic books share a single universe. TV shows have movie spin offs that create TV show spin offs. You don't need the art director of the movie to 'approve' something done for the TV show, you just need a good art guy to begin with for the TV show.
You have pre-production phase. Story bibal and outline are created and approved by Kestral/CBS/Whoever. Set piece or two of art, maps, sound, etc are created from scratch, such as a big map like Nimbus or New Romulas. A single 'filler' episode is also created at this time by the level designer since he is bored waiting on his set pieces to be created and he already made his character models from the current character creator.
Then you have a week or two week production phase for each episode/mission. Nothing too grand just a hefty amount of dialog, possibly one new small map created using existing assets (like a cave/ship interior/etc), and maybe hide the lobi and another accolade. The producer of the team can be the QA for the most part making sure he doesn't get stuck somewhere silly, or there is always the Tribble server. Then it ships.
Be honest with me Mr Fangs. Do you personally believe the creation of a mission similar in length but with a bit more depth similar to the New Romulus: Warehouse one would take longer than one week for a single level designer using existing assets? Longer than two weeks? And if so, why? EILI5, explain it like I'm five.
It may have been popular, but that doesn't mean it was successful. Admittedly, I was not on the team in those days, but I am friends with people who were, and we talked about it at lunch and such. You say we were keeping pace just fine, I say you don't know what it was like behind the scenes. Each time something slipped, everyone had to run faster to catch up, then the next, then again, then the next. All of that was extremely difficult on the dev team. People burned out.
I said nothing about this being players' faults. What I'm saying, when someone suggests that we do this again, is that we tried it once, and it didn't work very well. I would certainly be willing to give it another go, but I think things would have to be handled much differently.
Because they all demanded so much more than necessary. You tried to make 5 movies instead of 5 episodes of a TV show.
You don't need flashy new tech new environment etc etc to make a good FE.
You do need characters that players can become invested in and care about. And quite frankly I cannot think of a single NPC that fits that bill in the entire game.
New content, including story progression is coming in about 3 months with Season 8. Just sit tight and be patient, also a new Feature Episode Series will likely come starting late September if not certainly October.
The Galaxy needs you to fight the Iconians and their Heralds in order to protect our interests and freedoms in the Galaxy. Join the fight in the Herald/Iconian War today! :cool:
It may have been popular, but that doesn't mean it was successful. .
Sorry taco - I love you but they were VERY successful. They were proclaimed so successful by Stahl he wanted to do 9 or 10 series a year. Even some players had their doubts about that schedule being maintainable - and you know what - 4 or 5 series would have suited a lot of us just fine.
What derailed it all was the sale and f2p and it was just never resumed. The most popular AND SUCCESSFUL aspect of the game was abandoned in favour of grinds.
Sorry taco - I love you but they were VERY successful. They were proclaimed so successful by Stahl he wanted to do 9 or 10 series a year. Even some players had their doubts about that schedule being maintainable - and you know what - 4 or 5 series would have suited a lot of us just fine.
What derailed it all was the sale and f2p and it was just never resumed. The most popular AND SUCCESSFUL aspect of the game was abandoned in favour of grinds.
A shame!
You nailed it.
It's a shame to see Crytpic backpedaling ln the whole FE. I remember how it was considered a saving grace for STO. Nothing had been addressed after so long, broken mechanics, faction, and PVP. The FE's kept people playing and brought so many players back that the server squirrel died each weekend a FE was released.
Now we have a Cryptic spokes person telling us it wasn't that successful and that it was HARD. Well, considering how we have been spoon fed the line that the Zen store has allowed the hiring of many new personnel, surely it must be easier now from a man hour perspective. Unless of course the whole thing is a line of BS.
Time to man up, and do the job your being paid for, provide content so you can add more Lock boxes to fleece us for more money than if it was a Monthly subscription model
What I am trying to say, is that the idea that foundry authors can create quality content in a week is a fallacy on it's own, and thus, trying to show how slow developers are by comparison is specious at best.
It takes time to make quality content. Players will always run through it in a fraction of that time. Foundry or Dev, the result is the same.
You argue that you could make a complete mission in two weeks if you were paid for it.
I agree with some of that. A story, and it's mission, can be done in two weeks. However, the added delays that are simply part of doing work on a team, and, and requiring art for said mission, and playtesting, and QA, etc. all add up to a lot more than 2 weeks for that mission to be complete.
This was essentially the idea with Featured Series. Instead of larger updates every 6 months, we'd put out much smaller updates in a shorter amount of time. The problem is that any production difficulty causes a slip on the deadline, and we end up with pitchforks and torches. I think we all know that didn't work out so well. Doing larger, more periodic updates means there can be more wiggle room in the schedule for the eventualities. So while an individual mission may only take a couple of weeks for everyone to make, it's safer to group those together as one release.
Thats fair enough, i would hope most players can be more mature and understand the limitations your under as devs, while the foundry is limited functionally, we aren't being watched over our shoulder, or being told we need to go do something else
I agree that I'd love to see more character-driven interactions, side-plots, and minor storylines.
But I think you're oversimplifying what resources it would take to do "regular updates" within Cryptic.
They've already explained that various entities within Cryptic have to sign off on what they do, whether it's artwork, system, or storyline. Even a "dedicated team" would not be autonomous and would have to work within the whole.
And I think they would need more than three people on that team. Otherwise, they'd have to beg, borrow, and steal time from other departments and there goes the idea of a regular update.
More micro contnent would be nice, looking at smaller scale stuff li woudl like to see more stuff happen on my own ship, giving me a reason to head down to the lower decks to investigate something would be nice, even if its a poker minigame with my Senior staff in TNG style, or a new lifeform inhabiting one of my cargo bays and i have to make contact, some of that 'new life' we were supposed to be searching for
, saving the universe from bad guys is fun , but theres only so many times before it gets to be a chore
I wish Cryptic would abandon the scale of the FEs as a five-parter. Some of them are great, but some of them are kind of lacking in terms of pacing and quality of each part. I would much rather see individual stories like "Temporal Ambassador."
I wish they would just move from one mission to the next. Maybe the development cycles could still overlap, but I think the quality would still be great. Examples:
"Let's make a Captain Proton adventure... OK, that was fun... Now let's do something with this NW stuff and have a stand-alone holodeck adventure... OK, now let's explore the Voth homeworld in a mission."
Most Foundry authors work that way unless they're making a multi-part series. It would be a more productive approach.
Captain Proton , also i will go on record as liking this idea, Standalone missions like Temp Amb were great, and i would love for that to happen, perhaps giving us more variety
The NW holodeck adventure idea ? Game within a game ? awesome
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
It may have been popular, but that doesn't mean it was successful. Admittedly, I was not on the team in those days, but I am friends with people who were, and we talked about it at lunch and such. You say we were keeping pace just fine, I say you don't know what it was like behind the scenes. Each time something slipped, everyone had to run faster to catch up, then the next, then again, then the next. All of that was extremely difficult on the dev team. People burned out.
I think the concept of having a featured series, with weekly episodes is still an idea that warrants serious discussion. I can understand the production was not handled efficiently and may need a completely new strategy, but with the growth of the team (assuming said information is correct) I hope it gets put back on the table.
The question is, what would it take to create quality (not necessary heavy VO, all new assets, etc.) story based content distributed in the form a featured series? 10 people, 20, 50 working on that team?
The ideal being each week a 40-45 minute mission balanced between combat and story delivered at a set time each week. I'm sure the answer would center around a dedicated featured series team, but given the IP and how highly regarded the first few were, I'd love to see a commitment to making that happen again.
Unfortunately the impression I get from the game is Free To Play means grinding missions galore... The new Romulan missions were very well done, despite the fact I found the creative angle a bit odd. I still think the Romulans were turned into Bajorans with pointy ears but at least they show the ability to produce compelling missions still exists. The downside is it feels almost like a bait n switch... start with about a dozen amazing missions then nothing
Bottom line I guess is how can it be profitable for Cryptic to put out a weekly fix of amazing story based missions that captures the essence of Star Trek universe. Whether that's a number in Zen, Dilithium or cold hard cash I hope the discussion at least gets put on the table as it's crazy to think something could be so popular yet "not a success".
would be cool to go head to head in a battle of wits against 'Moriarity' as well wouldnt it ?
"the game is afoot !"
lol
/back to our regular programming
I like it because not everything has to be some epic invasion of (insert new enemy here). I'd rather see small stories with interesting characters and moral dilemmas than "OMGZers Tholians are invadingz. Shoot to killz!" Granted, it's probably harder to cater a good small story to a lockbox.
I like it because not everything has to be some epic invasion of (insert new enemy here). I'd rather see small stories with interesting characters and moral dilemmas than "OMGZers Tholians are invadingz. Shoot to killz!" Granted, it's probably harder to cater a good small story to a lockbox.
Indeed, more motivation than Pew Pew
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
I think they should take a page out of Elder Scrolls, where there are no people with little pointers above their heads telling you that you have to go there to do something for them and then run all over creation then back to them. It is a game of true exploration, the NPCs interact with you based upon your interaction with them. There is something new around every corner and you do what you want when you want. Your characters abilities are based upon what you have done and are doing, you gain experience by exploration and doing things. It is almost like real life, if you go up to someone and slap them, they are not going to like you very much and they would not in real life either, there would be consequences for those actions, just as there would be in real life. They should seriously consider taking a look at what they are doing with that game and perhaps integrate some of that into this one. Could you imagine how great this game would be if they did?
I think they should take a page out of Elder Scrolls, where there are no people with little pointers above their heads telling you that you have to go there to do something for them and then run all over creation then back to them. It is a game of true exploration, the NPCs interact with you based upon your interaction with them. There is something new around every corner and you do what you want when you want. Your characters abilities are based upon what you have done and are doing, you gain experience by exploration and doing things. It is almost like real life, if you go up to someone and slap them, they are not going to like you very much and they would not in real life either, there would be consequences for those actions, just as there would be in real life. They should seriously consider taking a look at what they are doing with that game and perhaps integrate some of that into this one. Could you imagine how great this game would be if they did?
Well, to add my two cents to the pile, one of the times that a Dev created a short story-oriented mission was met with massive backlash and criticism from the playerbase at the time.
The mission I'm talking about is "Hearts and Minds" (http://sto.gamepedia.com/Mission:_Hearts_and_Minds), in which you are asked to check on a scientist that Starfleet has lost contact with. The mission is short and the map small but has an interesting story about a scientist gone off the deep end. At the end of the mission, players get an accolade and the Dr. Sibok DOFF.
Common responses on the forums to the mission was harshness towards it's easiness (how everyone can just hit "F" at all the queues and do it all in a few minutes) and how it was so underwhelming to have it as a Friday the 13th mission.
Quoted from the wiki page, which was quoted from the thread:
"In defense of the kind soul who spent their own personal time making this mission quite some time ago but was asked if they would hold of publishing it so we use it for a fun little Friday the 13th event - that person doesn't deserve the TRIBBLE laid on them by this thread." - Dan Stahl
I'm not saying all players are like that but if I was on the Dev staff and saw that happen to a colleague's attempt at a short mission, I would be very hesitant to turn out story-intense missions like that and would instead focus on big Featured Episode blocks.
As I said, my two cents.
Member since November 2009... I think. (UFP) Ragnar
You nailed it.
It's a shame to see Crytpic backpedaling ln the whole FE. I remember how it was considered a saving grace for STO. Nothing had been addressed after so long, broken mechanics, faction, and PVP. The FE's kept people playing and brought so many players back that the server squirrel died each weekend a FE was released.
Now we have a Cryptic spokes person telling us it wasn't that successful and that it was HARD. Well, considering how we have been spoon fed the line that the Zen store has allowed the hiring of many new personnel, surely it must be easier now from a man hour perspective. Unless of course the whole thing is a line of BS.
Time to man up, and do the job your being paid for, provide content so you can add more Lock boxes to fleece us for more money than if it was a Monthly subscription model
careful what say as you as some may not like what you have posted , how are they back pedalling ?
I remember when FE used to be a reason to buy something cool from the c-store. The TOS uniform for the Spectre series, A shuttle for Cloaked Intentions, everything Defiant for the 2800.
I miss the story, excitement and a bit of role playing. Its just not the same for levelling up missions like in LOR although there were so great missions.
Comments
Pretty much this.
It sounds like to me from the posts you've made in this thread that you were overloaded. Like Creos said, we would have understood if you had to slow down the production on these episodes.
I wish Cryptic would abandon the scale of the FEs as a five-parter. Some of them are great, but some of them are kind of lacking in terms of pacing and quality of each part. I would much rather see individual stories like "Temporal Ambassador."
I wish they would just move from one mission to the next. Maybe the development cycles could still overlap, but I think the quality would still be great. Examples:
"Let's make a Captain Proton adventure... OK, that was fun... Now let's do something with this NW stuff and have a stand-alone holodeck adventure... OK, now let's explore the Voth homeworld in a mission."
Most Foundry authors work that way unless they're making a multi-part series. It would be a more productive approach.
you guys make new audio? If you're talking about music, then I can think of maybe six new tracks that were added in LoR. The music in this game is repetitive as hell. If you're talking about sound effects and Foley work, then that's hardly a real stretch of resources; how many 'pew pew' noises can you really need?
And if you're talking about voice-over (and I think that might be a large part of the audio required), then how about you just leave it. Seriously, this game as a major voice quality problem. Some of the actors are great and give really good performances; others are God-awful, I don't know if it's poor range or poor skills, but they just shatter the suspension of disbelief to Ed Wood levels.
I'd rather have no voice-over than shoddy inconsistency all over the place.
The story 'Bibal' and rough outline detailing out the various characters, their back rounds, personalities, and those details would need ran past Kestrel during pre-production yes but after that aside from minor standard quick info updates nothing more would be needed there. Audio would either use existing or if you wanted to go for broke (voice actors and all that) then it could become cumbersome. QA would be minimal as the existing assets already are known quantities aside from the single set piece created once again during pre-production phase.
I fail to see why the other devs would need to be involved. It really sounds like their are far too many cooks in Cryptics kitchen stressing and debating minor decision details that amount to little more than personal preference (should it be red or blue?). While it is dangerous to give too much responsibility to a single individual design by committee leads strait to mediocrity. And moves at a snails pace.
It happens all the time in other media. Dozens of comic books share a single universe. TV shows have movie spin offs that create TV show spin offs. You don't need the art director of the movie to 'approve' something done for the TV show, you just need a good art guy to begin with for the TV show.
You have pre-production phase. Story bibal and outline are created and approved by Kestral/CBS/Whoever. Set piece or two of art, maps, sound, etc are created from scratch, such as a big map like Nimbus or New Romulas. A single 'filler' episode is also created at this time by the level designer since he is bored waiting on his set pieces to be created and he already made his character models from the current character creator.
Then you have a week or two week production phase for each episode/mission. Nothing too grand just a hefty amount of dialog, possibly one new small map created using existing assets (like a cave/ship interior/etc), and maybe hide the lobi and another accolade. The producer of the team can be the QA for the most part making sure he doesn't get stuck somewhere silly, or there is always the Tribble server. Then it ships.
Be honest with me Mr Fangs. Do you personally believe the creation of a mission similar in length but with a bit more depth similar to the New Romulus: Warehouse one would take longer than one week for a single level designer using existing assets? Longer than two weeks? And if so, why? EILI5, explain it like I'm five.
Because they all demanded so much more than necessary. You tried to make 5 movies instead of 5 episodes of a TV show.
You don't need flashy new tech new environment etc etc to make a good FE.
You do need characters that players can become invested in and care about. And quite frankly I cannot think of a single NPC that fits that bill in the entire game.
Sorry taco - I love you but they were VERY successful. They were proclaimed so successful by Stahl he wanted to do 9 or 10 series a year. Even some players had their doubts about that schedule being maintainable - and you know what - 4 or 5 series would have suited a lot of us just fine.
What derailed it all was the sale and f2p and it was just never resumed. The most popular AND SUCCESSFUL aspect of the game was abandoned in favour of grinds.
A shame!
You nailed it.
It's a shame to see Crytpic backpedaling ln the whole FE. I remember how it was considered a saving grace for STO. Nothing had been addressed after so long, broken mechanics, faction, and PVP. The FE's kept people playing and brought so many players back that the server squirrel died each weekend a FE was released.
Now we have a Cryptic spokes person telling us it wasn't that successful and that it was HARD. Well, considering how we have been spoon fed the line that the Zen store has allowed the hiring of many new personnel, surely it must be easier now from a man hour perspective. Unless of course the whole thing is a line of BS.
Time to man up, and do the job your being paid for, provide content so you can add more Lock boxes to fleece us for more money than if it was a Monthly subscription model
Thats fair enough, i would hope most players can be more mature and understand the limitations your under as devs, while the foundry is limited functionally, we aren't being watched over our shoulder, or being told we need to go do something else
More micro contnent would be nice, looking at smaller scale stuff li woudl like to see more stuff happen on my own ship, giving me a reason to head down to the lower decks to investigate something would be nice, even if its a poker minigame with my Senior staff in TNG style, or a new lifeform inhabiting one of my cargo bays and i have to make contact, some of that 'new life' we were supposed to be searching for
, saving the universe from bad guys is fun , but theres only so many times before it gets to be a chore
Captain Proton
The NW holodeck adventure idea ? Game within a game ? awesome
would be cool to go head to head in a battle of wits against 'Moriarity' as well wouldnt it ?
"the game is afoot !"
lol
/back to our regular programming
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
I think the concept of having a featured series, with weekly episodes is still an idea that warrants serious discussion. I can understand the production was not handled efficiently and may need a completely new strategy, but with the growth of the team (assuming said information is correct) I hope it gets put back on the table.
The question is, what would it take to create quality (not necessary heavy VO, all new assets, etc.) story based content distributed in the form a featured series? 10 people, 20, 50 working on that team?
The ideal being each week a 40-45 minute mission balanced between combat and story delivered at a set time each week. I'm sure the answer would center around a dedicated featured series team, but given the IP and how highly regarded the first few were, I'd love to see a commitment to making that happen again.
Unfortunately the impression I get from the game is Free To Play means grinding missions galore... The new Romulan missions were very well done, despite the fact I found the creative angle a bit odd. I still think the Romulans were turned into Bajorans with pointy ears but at least they show the ability to produce compelling missions still exists. The downside is it feels almost like a bait n switch... start with about a dozen amazing missions then nothing
Bottom line I guess is how can it be profitable for Cryptic to put out a weekly fix of amazing story based missions that captures the essence of Star Trek universe. Whether that's a number in Zen, Dilithium or cold hard cash I hope the discussion at least gets put on the table as it's crazy to think something could be so popular yet "not a success".
Captain Ariel Trueheart Department of Temporal Investigations
U.S.S. Valkyrie - NCC 991701
=/\= ================================= =/\=
I like it because not everything has to be some epic invasion of (insert new enemy here). I'd rather see small stories with interesting characters and moral dilemmas than "OMGZers Tholians are invadingz. Shoot to killz!" Granted, it's probably harder to cater a good small story to a lockbox.
To lock horns with such a mind , if presented properly in game, would be fantastic
Indeed, more motivation than Pew Pew
Apples and oranges.
The mission I'm talking about is "Hearts and Minds" (http://sto.gamepedia.com/Mission:_Hearts_and_Minds), in which you are asked to check on a scientist that Starfleet has lost contact with. The mission is short and the map small but has an interesting story about a scientist gone off the deep end. At the end of the mission, players get an accolade and the Dr. Sibok DOFF.
Common responses on the forums to the mission was harshness towards it's easiness (how everyone can just hit "F" at all the queues and do it all in a few minutes) and how it was so underwhelming to have it as a Friday the 13th mission.
Quoted from the wiki page, which was quoted from the thread:
I'm not saying all players are like that but if I was on the Dev staff and saw that happen to a colleague's attempt at a short mission, I would be very hesitant to turn out story-intense missions like that and would instead focus on big Featured Episode blocks.
As I said, my two cents.
(UFP) Ragnar
careful what say as you as some may not like what you have posted , how are they back pedalling ?
DELTA PRICE RISING
I miss the story, excitement and a bit of role playing. Its just not the same for levelling up missions like in LOR although there were so great missions.
btw whatever happened to the remastered missions?