SNB DOFF spam...you'd have to look at abilities that can't be stripped.
SS DOFF spam...you'd have to consider abilities that can't be used because of CD.
It's like you're letting the Eng keep everything they've got, while removing anything the Tac/Sci have got.
It's more like I'm thinking of a situation to best make use of Eng Captain abilities compared to Tac & Sci.
Also, not sure how to read your point about the SS Doff spam. It doesn't really share a cooldown w/much if you're referring to its application. On the other hand, imo Eng would be able to survive longer w/o Tac team and focus on Sci teams if needed than Tac or Scis, if you're referring to who would be able to respond to the cooldown debuff better.
Really, though 2 Eng Captains in spam boats w/a light ship (tac and/or sci) or 2 for burst and a repair boat (sci) or destroyer (tac/sci) depending on playstyle preferences would be better overall. I don't see Scis let alone Tacs filling that spam boat roll better.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Tactical Attack Pattern Alpha - basically, left as is. Go Down Fighting - changed to a mindset. Limited duration toggle, scaling +Dmg/-Def over the duration of the buff. LDF would still apply the resistance buff as the Tac dropped in hull health.
Fire on My Mark - changed to a non-cleansable debuff that improves Accuracy vs. the target. Switching targets or any ability that breaks targetlock, would remove the debuff from that target. Another target could be selected during the duration (yes, along the lines of how APB works).
Tactical Fleet - +X Weapon Training, +Y Targeting Systems, +Z Maneuvers. Tactical Initiative - basically, left as is.
Engineering Miracle Worker - basically, left as is.
Nadion Inversion Field - an AoE combined version of EPS/Nadion. Scattering Field - basically, left like it works for Sci now.
Engineering Fleet - +X Subsystem Repair, +Y Hull Repair, +Z Shield Emitters. Engineering Initiative - like TI for Eng BOFFs.
Science Photonic Fleet - basically, left as is.
Sensor Scan - basically, left as is...but may need a boost to be onpar with APA and MW. Subnucleonic Beam - basically, left as is. (Though, I've posted more than a few times on my thoughts on how strips/cleanses should work.)
Science Fleet - +X Grav Gens, +Y Part Gens, +Z Sensors, +A Stealth, +B% Crew Recovery. Science Initiative - like TI for Sci BOFFs.
Which would hopefully provide the following flavoring to the itemization one undertakes in creating their builds and their teams...
I still think Tac is a distraction for Eng...that the issue is with Sci. It's the Sci that's doing what the Eng should be doing as well as what the Sci should be doing.
Well, let's take this in bits.
1) Yes, I agree. Tac is a distraction.
2) "Half" the Eng players want to be damage dealers, but they don't want to play tac.
3) The other "half" want to be support, but they don't want to play Sci.
You say that Sci trod on Eng.
I say players making Engineers to do what Sci does (i.e. Support) are just making a mistake. That's trying to make an Eng do what Sci does (support).
Eng career powers are not a support class powers.
Eng has almost nothing but self only powers.
It is not designed as a support class.
It is designed as a self-focused mitigation specialist (or a Tank, in most MMOs).
Basically my opinion is that anyone playing an Eng to be an optimal version of #2 or #3 made a mistake at the character creation screen.
They are not optimal at either of those roles, they can be "decent" at either one of them. They do not specialize in either.
They specialize in mitigation, the mitigation is there.
If you don't find extra mitigation useful, don't play a mitigation specialist.
You can add 10% crit to a Rom Eng or Rom Sci and you can stack up to +63% flat damage boost with APO 3 + Ambush + EPTW 1 on a Rom Eng or Rom Sci, but we don't hear much conversation about that.
You're talking about gear and equipment, which also exists to increase offense for anyone using it.
I'm talking about class powers and class design.
Mitigation is what they are designed for, and whether or not that makes sense to us or is useful or not to us is not a reason to give them a huge damage boost.
We need to find something that boosts Eng, but there is no reason for it to be damage.
Obviously Sci and Tac have better synnergy, but the damage stacking available that I've mentioned above is far from negligible.
You can use that right now to kill people while APA is down.
Which means you can use it if you don't even have APA at all.
theres not much conversation because a tac can do the same thing, station power buff stacking is a moot point. on top of that tacs have APA, tac fleet, and in the right situation GDF too. at least you remembered that everyone can use any gear thats available.
the only thing your dwelling on is damage, i think they will get a lot more out of 150 aux honestly. tacs should have the best spike potential, the highest peeks and maybe even the lowest valleys. 1 captain type being the best at constant gradual DPS is one of the few possible niches a captain could have in this system. and one of the few things that could add actual value to the class, in pve most of all. what about all subsytems but weapons power having a raised cap? or maybe just aux? you could say they were mitigation specialists with a strait face then.
for every noob i can kill off alpha by just pounding on him, theres a pro that even my best shot he can weather, even with all but GDF stacked. all i play is tac, their best damage can be brushed aside, often without even any outside help. thats why we need sci caps around. an eng only being able to spike half as hard, and dealing more mid level damage that is out auto distributed and regenerated indefinitely anyway, is not going to turn the STO i play on its head.
I understand the frustration behind Engineers beingwhere they are bud, I'm not trying to argue that they are fine by any stretch or that their design makes sense in the current game.
But Cryptic is never going to nerf current Eng powers, and the only way they can realistically increase Eng damage output is by nerfing mitigation.
On top of that, why do we need that?
We have a damage class, one that half of the career powers are nearly as meaningless as some of the Engineers.
What does having a more survivable slightly lesser damage dealer bring to the table to add value to game play?
If Engineers are ever to have a place, it needs to be unique.
with subsystem cap being raised, they would have incredibly synergy as healers, control sci ship captains, and yes pressure damage dealers and double tapers too. for damage dealing, they wouldn't be as ideal for anything in between that. with 1 simple change this takes a worthless class and gives it useful and unique synergy in every type of ship, and in every type of role.
i dont think that im 100% right with my initial proposal, without any actual testing. something like this needs to be on tribble for a month and tweeked 100 times. but im confident that this is just about the only thing you could do for eng captain to make them mater, with out changing everything else around them
2) "Half" the Eng players want to be damage dealers, but they don't want to play tac.
3) The other "half" want to be support, but they don't want to play Sci.
Well since I don't fall into either category, I guess there must be a few more "halves" out there.
Once again, Utility. We want our abilities to be desirable to a group. To be an honest viable choice instead of a tac or a sci.
This is not unreasonable and does not mean it has to be dps or supprt.
Tanking is a joke when escorts can pretty much do it better.. "Hey if you wanted to be a tank, roll an engineer".. maybe I should say that.
Because the other classes have already crossed so heavily into the area we used to control... it is somehow our fault that we are trying to find a way to fix this.
What direction can we go?
The other 2 classes have already crowded us out of our field. We are getting squeezed out of the game and any direction we want to go,... we should just reroll? Come on.. get real.
I have 3 years invested in my character and I am not going to reroll because if I want to tank and do damage... I should fly an escort or tank and do healing I should go science.
How about pushing the other classes out of OUR field and then maybe we can be viable again.
This is basically like getting slapped then scolded because the guy who slapped us bruised his hand.
Unbelievable.
Eleven of Twenty-Nine. Thousands of pvp matches done...hundreds of tournaments ran..and still seeing the same problems grow even larger than ever for us engineers.
Tanking is a joke when escorts can pretty much do it better..
While the Chel Grett is not the average ship, they've introduced ships as good or not better in the interim that fall into the Escort/Destroyer/etc line. It's amazing how much survivability and damage goes up moving from a Cruiser to such a ship.
That's the ship my main Eng currently flies.
Once the itemization is looked at, the extra mitigation from the Eng himself rarely comes into play. There are definitely times where I wish he was a Sci or even a Tac.
But then, like the concept I posted earlier - the changes I made there - don't "boost" my guy - they "boost" what he brings to the team. I'm generally fine with him - but there's a difference between running around PUGland or Ker'rat with him and thinking about x'ing up in OPvP with him.
2) "Half" the Eng players want to be damage dealers, but they don't want to play tac.
3) The other "half" want to be support, but they don't want to play Sci.
You say that Sci trod on Eng.
I say players making Engineers to do what Sci does (i.e. Support) are just making a mistake. That's trying to make an Eng do what Sci does (support).
Eng career powers are not a support class powers.
Eng has almost nothing but self only powers.
It is not designed as a support class.
It is designed as a self-focused mitigation specialist (or a Tank, in most MMOs).
Basically my opinion is that anyone playing an Eng to be an optimal version of #2 or #3 made a mistake at the character creation screen.
They are not optimal at either of those roles, they can be "decent" at either one of them. They do not specialize in either.
They specialize in mitigation, the mitigation is there.
If you don't find extra mitigation useful, don't play a mitigation specialist.
So your point is that players should already know all the game mechanics and abilities inside and out at the character creation screen and that their is nothing wrong with one of the three classes being considered subpar or worthless by the vast majority of the min/max or players with a high amount of game knowledge? You feel that the current situation is acceptable?
theres not much conversation because a tac can do the same thing, station power buff stacking is a moot point. on top of that tacs have APA, tac fleet, and in the right situation GDF too. at least you remembered that everyone can use any gear thats available.
Well that was the point, power creep works in both ways but these forums only seem to be able to see how it helps Tacs.
the only thing your dwelling on is damage, i think they will get a lot more out of 150 aux honestly. tacs should have the best spike potential, the highest peeks and maybe even the lowest valleys.
Right, and with a 150 weapons cap. Eng would have basically the same spike.
But also the ability to hit 150 shields, for the best tankability.
or 150 Aux for super powered heals.
So they could basically shift into being the best at any role at any moment, build depending.
Like I said to Renim, go and do a few matches with 100 weapons power.
for every noob i can kill off alpha by just pounding on him, theres a pro that even my best shot he can weather, even with all but GDF stacked. all i play is tac, their best damage can be brushed aside, often without even any outside help. thats why we need sci caps around. an eng only being able to spike half as hard, and dealing more mid level damage that is out auto distributed and regenerated indefinitely anyway, is not going to turn the STO i play on its head.
I'm not sure how you come up with firing at 150 weapons power as "half as hard".
They probably fire "half as hard" right now.
That's nearly "equally as hard". They lose 5% crit, in a game where 15% crit is doable by any captain type.
To be honest bud, the days of "pressure" damage slowly whittling people down is gone, and the tweak you suggest would be just another tool for spike since there is no reason to use it for "pressure".
Well since I don't fall into either category, I guess there must be a few more "halves" out there.
Once again, Utility. We want our abilities to be desirable to a group. To be an honest viable choice instead of a tac or a sci.
This is not unreasonable and does not mean it has to be dps or supprt.
Tanking is a joke when escorts can pretty much do it better.. "Hey if you wanted to be a tank, roll an engineer".. maybe I should say that.
Because the other classes have already crossed so heavily into the area we used to control... it is somehow our fault that we are trying to find a way to fix this.
What direction can we go?
I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
Engineers are hands down the hardest units to kill.
Anyone who says different is eating a hyperbole sandwich, or doesn't know what they are doing.
That's never been the problem. The problem is to be a "tank" people have to actually want to shoot you.
Most teams, realize:
A) The Eng is a ridiculously hard target. Other units have higher threat tools, and will be easier to kill.
That's it in a nutshell.
No one wants to shoot you, you can't use self mitigation powers if no one shoots you.
So your point is that players should already know all the game mechanics and abilities inside and out at the character creation screen and that their is nothing wrong with one of the three classes being considered subpar or worthless by the vast majority of the min/max or players with a high amount of game knowledge? You feel that the current situation is acceptable?
I do not.
No, you also misread what I wrote or paraphrased it incorrectly on purpose.
"...anyone playing an Eng to be an optimal version of #2 or #3 made a mistake at the character creation screen."
At least now in the current creation screen the entire blurb is about "using technology to withstand damage"
Well, that's what they do. The game PvE environment doesn't require that role, in PvP survivability is always useful but you need to be shot to use it. Part of that is an environmental issue, which if you remember we argued about several months ago. Nothing has changed.
I'm also not having a conversation with beginners.
I'm having a conversation with players who want to play "their class" for whatever emotional attachment they have to it.
I've re-rolled more characters than I care to count.
I abandoned 3 Fed tacs with JHAS, JHEC, Mobius and DKora. Fleet Gear, ACCx3 weapons, top end Tac consoles, expensive bound doffs, T5/5 Rep, Character bound rep gear - because they are now obsolete in the face of Romulans.
The game moves on, sometimes you need to re-roll or make a character to fit the role you actually want it to be. It sucks, but it is what it is.
I'd love for the devs to fix Eng some how, but we have a Support class and we have a Damage class.
Why the hell should the Eng be either of those? What exactly would that add to the game?
Nothing.
All of the proposals so far are usually to make Eng eat into the roles of existing Classes while also keeping all of their current powers intact - I don't agree with that.
So when someone comes up with a proposal that makes sense and adds something unique and needed, I'll voice that opinion.
So what's your proposal?
What role do you think Engineers should fit, if not mitigation?
And if not mitigation, how much of it should they lose (something Cryptic will never do, they'd likely sell us a brand new class first) in order to attain a different role?
Well that was the point, power creep works in both ways but these forums only seem to be able to see how it helps Tacs.
all the power creep helps tacs, usually at everyone else's expense. what power creep has hurt tacs more then it has helped them? ask that question of the other 2 captain types, and you can list almost all of it as hurting them more then helping, or marginalizing their reason to exist.
Right, and with a 150 weapons cap. Eng would have basically the same spike.
But also the ability to hit 150 shields, for the best tankability.
or 150 Aux for super powered heals.
So they could basically shift into being the best at any role at any moment, build depending.
Like I said to Renim, go and do a few matches with 100 weapons power.
Then do a few with 125.
Then get back to me.
Ok, that sounds good.
Your proposal doesn't suggest that though.
150 weapon power would be the best at pressure, and at least equal to spike, all of the time.
So we'd need a different avenue.
again, 150 weapons power would not happen, 140 would be the max. the cores push levels to 150, no core increases weapons power cap, thats by design and will not be changing. jinx. there is no 50% extra, only 30% extra at most. 30% extra + station power buffs is not equaling the spike of station power buffs, APA and tac fleet. if theres 1 thing ive learned its that throwing the strongest pressure damage i can down range has 1/5 the effectiveness as a build that is designed to take someone out in 5 seconds or less, but has crummy dps the rest of the time. thats not news to anyone im sure.
To be honest bud, the days of "pressure" damage slowly whittling people down is gone, and the tweak you suggest would be just another tool for spike since there is no reason to use it for "pressure".
it would be best utilized by pressure. if someone wanted spike, they should look to a tac captain, who would still have a very health amount more. the % extra an eng would be able to buff for an alpha is still less then the % extra a tac could buff. its a tool for pressure, and it is an inferior tool for spike compared to the tools a tac captain has.
So since I've tossed the question out there, I'll go ahead and say that the proposals I do like are:
MW & RSF Castable on others
Why?
> Gives them actual heals, which no class currently has as career powers.
> Also makes the Eng a reasonable target, once they have used these.
Nadion
Can pretty much stay as is, but it should resist all drain (100%) during it's 30s duration.
EPS:
Allow subsystem power caps to hit 130.
If you're already at 130, you get nothing. Adjust your power levels accordingly.
This would allow EPS to remain a decent power in an age where we are swimming in power.
and you can list almost all of it as hurting them more then helping, or marginalizing their reason to exist.
And yet Sci got a 30% flat damage boost to their PG based skills after they take energy damage. Couple that with a Rom and their 15% crit, and suddenly a Sci can make a few powers wreak havoc in the way people have been asking for.
30% extra + station power buffs is not equaling the spike of station power buffs, APA and tac fleet.
Actually that's more than Tac fleet, and it would also be on all the time.
(Tac fleet says 30%, but it only grants 22% ish for some reason).
It's still spike.
Any damage boost we give to an Eng, can be funneled into spike powers. It would be less spike sure, but it would be spike.
We have a spike based career already, we have a damage based career already.
I think we need to find a role for Eng that is not damage, because that's someone else's role.
Here's a fun bit. Let's imagine your proposal happens.
Fed Tac
APA + APO 3 + EPTW 1 = 85% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Tac
APA + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + AMBUSH = +110% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Eng
+30% from higher cap + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + AMBUSH = 90% Flat Damage Boost
Result?
Rom Tac has highest spike
Rom Eng has second highest
Rom Eng doesn't have "as much spike" as the Rom Tac?
Sure, but they have more than the Fed Tac. Do you think Fed tacs can't actually spike anyone right now? We know that isn't true, but we just gave Rom Engineers more spike than them.
Why wouldn't you build a spike Eng at that point?
You know what though? That Eng is pretty sturdy.
With that battle cloak, RSF, he doesn't need RSP. Let's grab a DEM or EPTW 2 instead.
Now he can grab more offense, using his mitigation toys to cover what he didn't take in BOFF skills.
Engineers are hands down the hardest units to kill.
Killing Plague the Fed Engineer in his Chel Grett...
Bonus Defense: +85% to +166.2%
Hull: 49,665
Hull Damage Resistance: Kinetic 24.6% to 66.8% / Energy 27.0% to 55.2%
Hull Heals:
2833.1 every 14.8s
10073.1 over 15s every 43.4s
15033.5 every 3m49.6s
Shields: 10,332
Shield Damage Reduction: 59.6% to 79.1% (though, I still believe that it caps at 75%...another discussion though)
Shield Heals:
1424.2 every 15s
745.6 every 43.4s
3187.5 over 15s every 43.4s
5319 over 30s every 3m49.6s
Killing Plague "not" the Fed Engineer in his Chel Grett...
Bonus Defense: +85% to +166.2%
Hull: 49,665
Hull Damage Resistance: Kinetic 24.6% to 66.5% / Energy 27.0% to 54.2%
Hull Heals:
2532.4 every 14.8s
9004.1 over 15s every 43.4s
Shields: 10,332
Shield Damage Reduction: 56.8% to 62.6%
Shield Heals:
1424.2 every 15s
666.4 every 43.4s
2848.5 over 15s every 43.4s
When Plague dies, how much longer did he live because he's an Engineer? Maybe 1-3 seconds...
edit: With PvE it's a different story entirely. Being an Eng makes a major difference there as far as survivability goes. You're not being hit by chained SNBs, Tractors/Tractor Mines, VMs, DOFF'd Scrambles, etc, etc, etc.
I think it is safe to say this class is doomed. Every concept and idea is pretty much shot down by the community (and by "community" I mean sci and tac ). The other classes can share our roles but we can not share theirs.
Ideally it should be like this
---- TAC ---- , ---- ENG ---- , ---- SCI ----
This would be an even distrubution of roles.
What we have is closer to this
---- TAC
, - ENG - ,
SCI ----
Where the other classes have been given about 90% of the effectiveness of our field
So what SHOULD be a fair way to fix this would be to extend the abilities out into the other fields creating a jack of all trades, master of none. This is seen in a LOT of games.
But when you mention increasing damage or adding some kind of unique damage, people say "roll a tac". If you go the other way they say "roll a sci"
Unless the class skills and or usefulness of the engineer class is allowed to tread upon the hypocritically sacred ground of damage or support, the balance will look like this in a few patches.
---- TAC
, E ,
SCI ----
Not even enough room for the 3 letters.. which is appropriate.
Why should any class be overlooked as a viable option for pvp or pve, when you compare it to the others?
Many games have classes that overlap to one degree or another. But if you mention this attempt at balance for the engineer, the community goes ape.
So all they want is PEW PEW PEW or to TRIBBLE black holes... and the other players can just go reroll.
Odd... since engineer is such an iconic role in Star Trek that is relegated to garbage in a Star Trek game.
But that is what the community and the devs want. Their actions speak as loud as their words.
Eleven of Twenty-Nine. Thousands of pvp matches done...hundreds of tournaments ran..and still seeing the same problems grow even larger than ever for us engineers.
I think it is safe to say this class is doomed. Every concept and idea is pretty much shot down by the community (and by "community" I mean sci and tac ). The other classes can share our roles but we can not share theirs.
Put up a good idea and I'll come out and say so.
I don't think I've seen you do that, but correct me if I'm wrong.
So since I've tossed the question out there, I'll go ahead and say that the proposals I do like are:
MW & RSF Castable on others
Why?
> Gives them actual heals, which no class currently has as career powers.
> Also makes the Eng a reasonable target, once they have used these.
Nadion
Can pretty much stay as is, but it should resist all drain (100%) during it's 30s duration.
EPS:
Allow subsystem power caps to hit 130.
If you're already at 130, you get nothing. Adjust your power levels accordingly.
This would allow EPS to remain a decent power in an age where we are swimming in power.
Those are some of the proposed ideas that I do like.
Those are some of the proposed ideas that I do like.
What are your ideas?
That's pretty much what everyone else is saying too except DDIS wants the power cap at 150 and you want it at 130. I personally would like to see it at 135-140 so an eng gets a boost but doesn't step on a tac's alpha.
The other two classes have almost completely taken over an eng's designed roll. The only way to make an eng competitive will be to take on some of the other rolls too. I mean really, a pre-made does great without an eng, because there's no roll for an eng. I don't think we're going to get any "unique" ideas for an eng because: 1) this game doesn't seem to be designed for anything else. 2) the simpler the idea the easier it is and more probable it is to get done.
I totally understand why you don't want an engineer to get an alpha just as well as a tac, but it would be nice if for 30 seconds an engineer can competitively alpha but not as good as a tac and do science stuffs but not as good as a sci. It seems only fair. Sciscorts and tac/sci can already be competitive.
This would all help in PVEland too where engineers are the only class actively excluded form premade teams for nowin.
Actually that's more than Tac fleet, and it would also be on all the time.
(Tac fleet says 30%, but it only grants 22% ish for some reason).
It's still spike.
Any damage boost we give to an Eng, can be funneled into spike powers. It would be less spike sure, but it would be spike.
We have a spike based career already, we have a damage based career already.
I think we need to find a role for Eng that is not damage, because that's someone else's role.
Here's a fun bit. Let's imagine your proposal happens.
Fed Tac
APA + APO 3 + EPTW 1 = 85% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Tac
APA + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + AMBUSH = +110% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Eng
+30% from higher cap + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + AMBUSH = 90% Flat Damage Boost
Result?
Rom Tac has highest spike
Rom Eng has second highest
Rom Eng doesn't have "as much spike" as the Rom Tac?
Sure, but they have more than the Fed Tac. Do you think Fed tacs can't actually spike anyone right now? We know that isn't true, but we just gave Rom Engineers more spike than them.
Why wouldn't you build a spike Eng at that point?
You know what though? That Eng is pretty sturdy.
With that battle cloak, RSF, he doesn't need RSP. Let's grab a DEM or EPTW 2 instead.
Now he can grab more offense, using his mitigation toys to cover what he didn't take in BOFF skills.
Balancing classes is a tricky business.
balancing is so tricky with the romulans, im not sure they tried! if you compare them to other factions, they actually compete with federation tacs. romulans are the best, and it sounds like you know that if you did actually delete non romulan characters :eek:
heres a bit more like what it would look like if we compared spike potential
Fed Tac
APA + APO 3 + tacfleet (22%) + EPTW 1 = 107% Flat Damage Boost
fed eng
+30% from higher cap and nadion + APO 3 + EPTW 1 = 65% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Tac
APA + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + + tacfleet (22%) + AMBUSH = 132% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Eng
+30% from higher cap and nadion + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + AMBUSH = 90% Flat Damage Boost
for that 30% damage buff to be so flat and across the board, you will need nadion up, or a large amount of overcaping even on DHCs to consistently get between a 20% and 30% bonus from weapons power alone.
its a little bit not as close as you portrayed. tacs still have a 42% spike potential advantage, when the eng has 0 power drain.
I abandoned 3 Fed tacs with JHAS, JHEC, Mobius and DKora. Fleet Gear, ACCx3 weapons, top end Tac consoles, expensive bound doffs, T5/5 Rep, Character bound rep gear - because they are now obsolete in the face of Romulans.
I think you, yourself, have given the best argument as to why PvP (and by extension, this game) has become irrecoverably broken.
That's pretty much what everyone else is saying too except DDIS wants the power cap at 150 and you want it at 130. I personally would like to see it at 135-140 so an eng gets a boost but doesn't step on a tac's alpha.
Well I think DDIS is trying to find a good number, he's a guy who is concerned about balance and he doesn't necessarily have much stake in Eng suddenly overtaking Tac.
If you scroll up a bit, the comparison I gave was done assuming a hypotetical Weapons cap of 140.
balancing is so tricky with the romulans, im not sure they tried!
It's baffling man.
I mean, we have a dev saying they didn't give the Rom Temporal Sci & Destroyer sing cores or battle cloaks because they were worried about power-creep...
Yet most of what was released in LoR completely escaped this sense of worry.
if you compare them to other factions, they actually compete with federation tacs. romulans are the best, and it sounds like you know that if you did actually delete non romulan characters :eek:
Well, I never delete (I just buy more slots). They don't really get used for PvP anymore though.
Fed Tac
APA + APO 3 + tacfleet (22%) + EPTW 1 = 107% Flat Damage Boost
fed eng
+30% from higher cap and nadion + APO 3 + EPTW 1 = 65% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Tac
APA + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + + tacfleet (22%) + AMBUSH = 132% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Eng
+30% from higher cap and nadion + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + AMBUSH = 90% Flat Damage Boost
for that 30% damage buff to be so flat and across the board, you will need nadion up, or a large amount of overcaping even on DHCs to consistently get between a 20% and 30% bonus from weapons power alone.
its a little bit not as close as you portrayed. tacs still have a 42% spike potential advantage, when the eng has 0 power drain.
I don;t consider Tac fleet personally.
It's once every 5 minutes. That's an eternity at this point in the game.
Right now an ambush striker should be working the following pattern:
APA Cycle > Kill cycle every 90s [High rate of success]
45s later
Sub-cycle > Attempted kill without APA [Moderate rate of success - 30% to 50% or so]
Success % will increase with a bit of teamwork, or go down vs. skilled opposition. A lot of variables here.
Tac fleet is nice, 2 Tacs can dole it out between themselves every 2 1/2 minutes - but that's still almost every 2 APA kill cycles.
Usually, I reserve Tac fleet for when a kill attempt isn't going well and just a little bit more will push it into success.
I abandoned 3 Fed tacs with JHAS, JHEC, Mobius and DKora. Fleet Gear, ACCx3 weapons, top end Tac consoles, expensive bound doffs, T5/5 Rep, Character bound rep gear - because they are now obsolete in the face of Romulans.
The game moves on, sometimes you need to re-roll or make a character to fit the role you actually want it to be. It sucks, but it is what it is.
Romulans are so far above everyone else its really eyeopening. We knew Cryptic was 100% on board with power creep so long as it sold ships and Dil, but the Romulans are not a "creep".
With LoR Cryptic really dd go by the numbers:
Turns a recognizable marketable name into a generic Rebel Alliance for mass appeal: Check
Makes the new ships more powerful than anything before it by giving it special abilities at a token cost: Check
Makes the new Boffs more powerful than anything before: Check
The list goes on.
There have been matches where my fed tacscort would've been more helpful if it had stayed dead and not respawned. In a match where everyone else is cloaked all you are is a liability. I've even seen the dual BO decloak alpha 1 second kill builds that can be made now. Sure, they often need a crit, but romulans get that too.
Do I want to re-roll though? I really don't.
If we look beyond emotional attachment I don't think STO has any real merits. They may as well start changing everything to a generic look and feel and drop the ST license.
I may level up a Romulan tac, but I know I will not do the reps, get the gear, jump through all the hoops again. Why bother? I don't care about romulans enough for that, heck I wouldn't have cared about actual RSE romulans that much either. Besides, how soon until we can expect the next faction to be released and make you restart it all. No thank you Cryptic. I will stick to my characters for as long as I can, but PvP may as well be nothing but another Dil grind as more experienced players get their romulans repped and geared.
Edit: I should add however, that I AM getting a lot of fun making sure everyone that shows an interest in the game knows EXACTLY what's happening. People will say "but its Star trek, I'll play it regardless"... but do they? I feel it counts as my good deed for the day. If you don't like the way something is going anything you do to curb it is a moral vicoty, much like getting at least one kill in some PvP matches.
I think you, yourself, have given the best argument as to why PvP (and by extension, this game) has become irrecoverably broken.
Its only irrecoverably broken if Cryptic refuses to nerf the romulans. Many thought it would've happened by now..... maybe they haven't met their sales projections yet?
This is why being a specialist at "tanking" is kind of irrelevant.
The devs could make Engineers unkillable 99% of the time regardless of the scenario and it still wouldn't matter because being "a tank" is a PvE role.
yeah...that's not what I was saying...
Remember a little over a year ago when there were more engineering healers because the engineer could heal others with skills then keep himself alive with personal heals? That isn't useful anymore because with rep and embassy consoles anyone can "tank" and with a science healer you get an extra SNB to boot. That's what I was saying about the other classes taking over the engineer's designed roll..not about just surviving.
Also, drunk's numbers look pretty solid and an engineer could easily pass on an EPS to a tac to get even more of a punch or even pass it on to a healer for more surviveability or better heals or even to a sci for better science awesomeness. Then engineers would have a place as support rather than just surviving.
Romulans are so far above everyone else its really eyeopening. We knew Cryptic was 100% on board with power creep so long as it sold ships and Dil, but the Romulans are not a "creep".
With LoR Cryptic really dd go by the numbers:
Turns a recognizable marketable name into a generic Rebel Alliance for mass appeal: Check
Makes the new ships more powerful than anything before it by giving it special abilities at a token cost: Check
Makes the new Boffs more powerful than anything before: Check
The list goes on.
There have been matches where my fed tacscort would've been more helpful if it had stayed dead and not respawned. In a match where everyone else is cloaked all you are is a liability. I've even seen the dual BO decloak alpha 1 second kill builds that can be made now. Sure, they often need a crit, but romulans get that too.
Do I want to re-roll though? I really don't.
If we look beyond emotional attachment I don't think STO has any real merits. They may as well start changing everything to a generic look and feel and drop the ST license.
I may level up a Romulan tac, but I know I will not do the reps, get the gear, jump through all the hoops again. Why bother? I don't care about romulans enough for that, heck I wouldn't have cared about actual RSE romulans that much either. Besides, how soon until we can expect the next faction to be released and make you restart it all. No thank you Cryptic. I will stick to my characters for as long as I can, but PvP may as well be nothing but another Dil grind as more experienced players get their romulans repped and geared.
Edit: I should add however, that I AM getting a lot of fun making sure everyone that shows an interest in the game knows EXACTLY what's happening. People will say "but its Star trek, I'll play it regardless"... but do they? I feel it counts as my good deed for the day. If you don't like the way something is going anything you do to curb it is a moral vicoty, much like getting at least one kill in some PvP matches.
Not a fan of the power creep, but a Fed waiting to complain about power creep until now is just too funny .
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
This is a case where numbers in a vacuum do not tell the whole story.;)
Just like how there are Tacs out there that have damage at the end of a match so low, you wonder if they ever decloaked at all.
If you have some ideas how to make them better mitigators of damage, feel free to post them. At least that's what they are specialized to do.
I think you need to reevaluate that they're damage mitigation specialists thing again. That's why I posted that two sets of numbers. There were only little boosts outside of MW that's normally every four minutes and RSF that's normally every minute and a half.
EPS Power: +Power, +Power Transfer
MW: +Hull Heal, +Shield Heal
Nadion: +Drain Resistance Rating
RSF: +Shield HoT, +Shield Damage Reduction
Eng Fleet: +DRR, +Hull Repair, +Core Potential
Grace: conditional reset of MW CD
Manifold: +Power with EPtX
Eng Fleet normally has a 5m CD for +26.6 DRR.
RSF normally has a 1m30s CD for +Shield Damage Reduction that scales with Shield Power - so up to +43.1%.
Sci Fleet normally has a 5m CD for +33% Shield Damage Reduction.
Scattering Field normally has a 3m CD for +Energy Damage Resistance Rating that scales with Aux Power - so up to ~+101/102 DRR.
Even GDF /w LDE provides scaling +DRR.
Maybe it's looking at BOFFs as well?
APD, APO AtD, AtS, EPtS, ExS HE, PH, TSS
That's just mitigation - what about avoidance/reduction through other means?
APO(+Def), BtW(weapon disable), TT(shield distribution) Aceton(reduce Energy damage), EPtA(boost Aux boosted defenses), EPtE(move out of range/arc), RSP(shield heal w/ Energy hits) Jam Sensors(break target lock), Scramble Sensors(break target lock), FBP(deterrent), VM(potential weapon disable)
That's not even getting into things like using DPA/DPA to drop mines to eat incoming damage - using Photonic Fleet to do the same. Using TBR/TB to push hold or destroy targetables. PSW to do the same. Etc, etc, etc - the game is overflowing with defensive abilities and means to mitigate damage...heck, I didn't even get into the Reputation stuff or any gear stuff.
...the Eng is by no means a specialist in mitigating damage.
Which goes back to what I said about Sci trodding over the Eng, and the post where I suggested changes to the Captain Abilities (similar changes would have to take place with the BOFF abilities).
To make the Eng the mitigation specialist, the "defensive specialist", the defensive support - then Sci needs to give back the Operations stuff.
Tac - Damage
Eng - Defensive Support
Sci - Offensive Support
Not a fan of the power creep, but a Fed waiting to complain about power creep until now is just too funny .
Why? The KDF had advantages (but lets call then "uniqueness" for now) that was clearly aimed at enticing players to make KDF characters. What has happened with LoR is Cryptic trying to do the same thing but on a grander scale. Cryptic probably deduced or worked out that the reason it didn't work to make the KDF grow was that people generally did not care for the KDF itself, even with all its extra "uniqueness". Their solution was to remake a known name into something more generic and palatable to the masses, then gave them more "uniqueness".
But hey, I'm not the one who's faction became irrelevant beyond doff farming with LoR, so what do I know right?
Why? The KDF had advantages (but lets call then "uniqueness" for now) that was clearly aimed at enticing players to make KDF characters. What has happened with LoR is Cryptic trying to do the same thing but on a grander scale. Cryptic probably deduced or worked out that the reason it didn't work to make the KDF grow was that people generally did not care for the KDF itself, even with all its extra "uniqueness".their solution was to remake a known name into something more generic and palatable to the masses, then gave them more "uniqueness".
But hey, I'm not the one who's faction became irrelevant beyond doff farming with LoR, so what do I know right?
It's the otherway around. Other than a few consoles and for a little while carriers Feds had/have advantages in ships. Btw, that started w/the 1st major C-Store release prior to F2P. The fact you are unable/willing to admit this is too funny.
Edit: As far as KDF population, it's always been low for the same reason PvP has been low. Cryptic spent TRIBBLE resources to build it for years. It wasn't until LoR that it was actually "finished".
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
-snip-
To make the Eng the mitigation specialist, the "defensive specialist", the defensive support - then Sci needs to give back the Operations stuff.
Tac - Damage
Eng - Defensive Support
Sci - Offensive Support
Gotta agree with VD on this to a point. But first I would like to say something about STO in general.
No ship, carrier, or anything can be pigeonholed into a singular role or archtype. It doesn't work. Everything and everyone is a hybrid. Some may gain more advantage from focusing and min/maxing but that is not the point.
Case in point. Which is more likely to save you from a nasty alpha strike? Sub-Nuking the attacker or using Miracle Worker? *edit addon* Trick question the right answer is APO to break the hold and get your bonus defense back up before the crit overflow kills you.
Engineers have the same exact problem cruisers did in the past. Everyone has it stuck in their head they are 'tanks' when the system mechanics and abilities do not support that concept in any way.
So let the engineers be hybrids via higher subsystem power caps with abilities. Combine that with an uber cleanse MW and the ability to use it on others and they will have a nitch to call their own. By higher power cap I am referring to using EPS transfer and allowing it to increase the cap of all subsystems by 5 or 10.
Edit: As far as KDF population, it's always been low for the same reason PvP has been low. Cryptic spent TRIBBLE resources to build it for years. It wasn't until LoR that it was actually "finished".
I'd say that played a role in it - wasn't the sole cause, but it played a major role in it.
People overestimate the popularity of Klingons. Heck, even with the Romulans - people overestimate their popularity. Star Trek is basically a Federation/Starfleet franchise - all the series, all the movies - Federation/Starfleet.
There are still a majority of Fedbunnies running around out there. The Romulans haven't changed that.
But what the Romulans did show - was that if Cryptic had given that much attention to the KDF in the first place, the KDF would have likely had better numbers than they did. "Finishing" up the KDF at this point, though - their shiny is still pretty dim compared to what they did for the Roms and when you look at the itemization, yeah...meh.
Have to wonder if at some point in the design/development process, the KDF weren't simply expected to be "Monster Play ala LotRO" - that they decided to try to do more, but they were never really into do more (one of the many countless half-assed things in STO).
Comments
It's more like I'm thinking of a situation to best make use of Eng Captain abilities compared to Tac & Sci.
Also, not sure how to read your point about the SS Doff spam. It doesn't really share a cooldown w/much if you're referring to its application. On the other hand, imo Eng would be able to survive longer w/o Tac team and focus on Sci teams if needed than Tac or Scis, if you're referring to who would be able to respond to the cooldown debuff better.
Really, though 2 Eng Captains in spam boats w/a light ship (tac and/or sci) or 2 for burst and a repair boat (sci) or destroyer (tac/sci) depending on playstyle preferences would be better overall. I don't see Scis let alone Tacs filling that spam boat roll better.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Attack Pattern Alpha - basically, left as is.
Go Down Fighting - changed to a mindset. Limited duration toggle, scaling +Dmg/-Def over the duration of the buff. LDF would still apply the resistance buff as the Tac dropped in hull health.
Fire on My Mark - changed to a non-cleansable debuff that improves Accuracy vs. the target. Switching targets or any ability that breaks targetlock, would remove the debuff from that target. Another target could be selected during the duration (yes, along the lines of how APB works).
Tactical Fleet - +X Weapon Training, +Y Targeting Systems, +Z Maneuvers.
Tactical Initiative - basically, left as is.
Engineering
Miracle Worker - basically, left as is.
Nadion Inversion Field - an AoE combined version of EPS/Nadion.
Scattering Field - basically, left like it works for Sci now.
Engineering Fleet - +X Subsystem Repair, +Y Hull Repair, +Z Shield Emitters.
Engineering Initiative - like TI for Eng BOFFs.
Science
Photonic Fleet - basically, left as is.
Sensor Scan - basically, left as is...but may need a boost to be onpar with APA and MW.
Subnucleonic Beam - basically, left as is. (Though, I've posted more than a few times on my thoughts on how strips/cleanses should work.)
Science Fleet - +X Grav Gens, +Y Part Gens, +Z Sensors, +A Stealth, +B% Crew Recovery.
Science Initiative - like TI for Sci BOFFs.
Which would hopefully provide the following flavoring to the itemization one undertakes in creating their builds and their teams...
Damage
Defensive Support
Offensive Support
Well, let's take this in bits.
1) Yes, I agree. Tac is a distraction.
2) "Half" the Eng players want to be damage dealers, but they don't want to play tac.
3) The other "half" want to be support, but they don't want to play Sci.
You say that Sci trod on Eng.
I say players making Engineers to do what Sci does (i.e. Support) are just making a mistake. That's trying to make an Eng do what Sci does (support).
Eng career powers are not a support class powers.
Eng has almost nothing but self only powers.
It is not designed as a support class.
It is designed as a self-focused mitigation specialist (or a Tank, in most MMOs).
Basically my opinion is that anyone playing an Eng to be an optimal version of #2 or #3 made a mistake at the character creation screen.
They are not optimal at either of those roles, they can be "decent" at either one of them. They do not specialize in either.
They specialize in mitigation, the mitigation is there.
If you don't find extra mitigation useful, don't play a mitigation specialist.
theres not much conversation because a tac can do the same thing, station power buff stacking is a moot point. on top of that tacs have APA, tac fleet, and in the right situation GDF too. at least you remembered that everyone can use any gear thats available.
the only thing your dwelling on is damage, i think they will get a lot more out of 150 aux honestly. tacs should have the best spike potential, the highest peeks and maybe even the lowest valleys. 1 captain type being the best at constant gradual DPS is one of the few possible niches a captain could have in this system. and one of the few things that could add actual value to the class, in pve most of all. what about all subsytems but weapons power having a raised cap? or maybe just aux? you could say they were mitigation specialists with a strait face then.
for every noob i can kill off alpha by just pounding on him, theres a pro that even my best shot he can weather, even with all but GDF stacked. all i play is tac, their best damage can be brushed aside, often without even any outside help. thats why we need sci caps around. an eng only being able to spike half as hard, and dealing more mid level damage that is out auto distributed and regenerated indefinitely anyway, is not going to turn the STO i play on its head.
with subsystem cap being raised, they would have incredibly synergy as healers, control sci ship captains, and yes pressure damage dealers and double tapers too. for damage dealing, they wouldn't be as ideal for anything in between that. with 1 simple change this takes a worthless class and gives it useful and unique synergy in every type of ship, and in every type of role.
i dont think that im 100% right with my initial proposal, without any actual testing. something like this needs to be on tribble for a month and tweeked 100 times. but im confident that this is just about the only thing you could do for eng captain to make them mater, with out changing everything else around them
Well since I don't fall into either category, I guess there must be a few more "halves" out there.
Once again, Utility. We want our abilities to be desirable to a group. To be an honest viable choice instead of a tac or a sci.
This is not unreasonable and does not mean it has to be dps or supprt.
Tanking is a joke when escorts can pretty much do it better.. "Hey if you wanted to be a tank, roll an engineer".. maybe I should say that.
Because the other classes have already crossed so heavily into the area we used to control... it is somehow our fault that we are trying to find a way to fix this.
What direction can we go?
The other 2 classes have already crowded us out of our field. We are getting squeezed out of the game and any direction we want to go,... we should just reroll? Come on.. get real.
I have 3 years invested in my character and I am not going to reroll because if I want to tank and do damage... I should fly an escort or tank and do healing I should go science.
How about pushing the other classes out of OUR field and then maybe we can be viable again.
This is basically like getting slapped then scolded because the guy who slapped us bruised his hand.
Unbelievable.
While the Chel Grett is not the average ship, they've introduced ships as good or not better in the interim that fall into the Escort/Destroyer/etc line. It's amazing how much survivability and damage goes up moving from a Cruiser to such a ship.
That's the ship my main Eng currently flies.
Once the itemization is looked at, the extra mitigation from the Eng himself rarely comes into play. There are definitely times where I wish he was a Sci or even a Tac.
But then, like the concept I posted earlier - the changes I made there - don't "boost" my guy - they "boost" what he brings to the team. I'm generally fine with him - but there's a difference between running around PUGland or Ker'rat with him and thinking about x'ing up in OPvP with him.
So your point is that players should already know all the game mechanics and abilities inside and out at the character creation screen and that their is nothing wrong with one of the three classes being considered subpar or worthless by the vast majority of the min/max or players with a high amount of game knowledge? You feel that the current situation is acceptable?
I do not.
Well that was the point, power creep works in both ways but these forums only seem to be able to see how it helps Tacs.
Right, and with a 150 weapons cap. Eng would have basically the same spike.
But also the ability to hit 150 shields, for the best tankability.
or 150 Aux for super powered heals.
So they could basically shift into being the best at any role at any moment, build depending.
Like I said to Renim, go and do a few matches with 100 weapons power.
Then do a few with 125.
Then get back to me.
Ok, that sounds good.
Your proposal doesn't suggest that though.
150 weapon power would be the best at pressure, and at least equal to spike, all of the time.
So we'd need a different avenue.
I'm not sure how you come up with firing at 150 weapons power as "half as hard".
They probably fire "half as hard" right now.
That's nearly "equally as hard". They lose 5% crit, in a game where 15% crit is doable by any captain type.
To be honest bud, the days of "pressure" damage slowly whittling people down is gone, and the tweak you suggest would be just another tool for spike since there is no reason to use it for "pressure".
I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
Engineers are hands down the hardest units to kill.
Anyone who says different is eating a hyperbole sandwich, or doesn't know what they are doing.
That's never been the problem. The problem is to be a "tank" people have to actually want to shoot you.
Most teams, realize:
A) The Eng is a ridiculously hard target.
That's it in a nutshell.
No one wants to shoot you, you can't use self mitigation powers if no one shoots you.
No, you also misread what I wrote or paraphrased it incorrectly on purpose.
"...anyone playing an Eng to be an optimal version of #2 or #3 made a mistake at the character creation screen."
At least now in the current creation screen the entire blurb is about "using technology to withstand damage"
Well, that's what they do. The game PvE environment doesn't require that role, in PvP survivability is always useful but you need to be shot to use it. Part of that is an environmental issue, which if you remember we argued about several months ago. Nothing has changed.
I'm also not having a conversation with beginners.
I'm having a conversation with players who want to play "their class" for whatever emotional attachment they have to it.
I've re-rolled more characters than I care to count.
I abandoned 3 Fed tacs with JHAS, JHEC, Mobius and DKora. Fleet Gear, ACCx3 weapons, top end Tac consoles, expensive bound doffs, T5/5 Rep, Character bound rep gear - because they are now obsolete in the face of Romulans.
The game moves on, sometimes you need to re-roll or make a character to fit the role you actually want it to be. It sucks, but it is what it is.
I'd love for the devs to fix Eng some how, but we have a Support class and we have a Damage class.
Why the hell should the Eng be either of those? What exactly would that add to the game?
Nothing.
All of the proposals so far are usually to make Eng eat into the roles of existing Classes while also keeping all of their current powers intact - I don't agree with that.
So when someone comes up with a proposal that makes sense and adds something unique and needed, I'll voice that opinion.
So what's your proposal?
What role do you think Engineers should fit, if not mitigation?
And if not mitigation, how much of it should they lose (something Cryptic will never do, they'd likely sell us a brand new class first) in order to attain a different role?
all the power creep helps tacs, usually at everyone else's expense. what power creep has hurt tacs more then it has helped them? ask that question of the other 2 captain types, and you can list almost all of it as hurting them more then helping, or marginalizing their reason to exist.
again, 150 weapons power would not happen, 140 would be the max. the cores push levels to 150, no core increases weapons power cap, thats by design and will not be changing. jinx. there is no 50% extra, only 30% extra at most. 30% extra + station power buffs is not equaling the spike of station power buffs, APA and tac fleet. if theres 1 thing ive learned its that throwing the strongest pressure damage i can down range has 1/5 the effectiveness as a build that is designed to take someone out in 5 seconds or less, but has crummy dps the rest of the time. thats not news to anyone im sure.
they can still only stack about half the total % extra damage as a tac can, thats were i get that, i didn't mean half the final damage number.
it would be best utilized by pressure. if someone wanted spike, they should look to a tac captain, who would still have a very health amount more. the % extra an eng would be able to buff for an alpha is still less then the % extra a tac could buff. its a tool for pressure, and it is an inferior tool for spike compared to the tools a tac captain has.
MW & RSF Castable on others
Why?
> Gives them actual heals, which no class currently has as career powers.
> Also makes the Eng a reasonable target, once they have used these.
Nadion
Can pretty much stay as is, but it should resist all drain (100%) during it's 30s duration.
EPS:
Allow subsystem power caps to hit 130.
If you're already at 130, you get nothing. Adjust your power levels accordingly.
This would allow EPS to remain a decent power in an age where we are swimming in power.
Tacs aren't a unified army in the game of Risk.
Tac/Escorts shoot each other too, actually I usually prioritize them because they are squishier and dangerous. :P
Power creep both helps and hurts everyone.
And yet Sci got a 30% flat damage boost to their PG based skills after they take energy damage. Couple that with a Rom and their 15% crit, and suddenly a Sci can make a few powers wreak havoc in the way people have been asking for.
Actually that's more than Tac fleet, and it would also be on all the time.
(Tac fleet says 30%, but it only grants 22% ish for some reason).
It's still spike.
Any damage boost we give to an Eng, can be funneled into spike powers. It would be less spike sure, but it would be spike.
We have a spike based career already, we have a damage based career already.
I think we need to find a role for Eng that is not damage, because that's someone else's role.
Here's a fun bit. Let's imagine your proposal happens.
Fed Tac
APA + APO 3 + EPTW 1 = 85% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Tac
APA + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + AMBUSH = +110% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Eng
+30% from higher cap + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + AMBUSH = 90% Flat Damage Boost
Result?
Rom Tac has highest spike
Rom Eng has second highest
Rom Eng doesn't have "as much spike" as the Rom Tac?
Sure, but they have more than the Fed Tac. Do you think Fed tacs can't actually spike anyone right now? We know that isn't true, but we just gave Rom Engineers more spike than them.
Why wouldn't you build a spike Eng at that point?
You know what though? That Eng is pretty sturdy.
With that battle cloak, RSF, he doesn't need RSP. Let's grab a DEM or EPTW 2 instead.
Now he can grab more offense, using his mitigation toys to cover what he didn't take in BOFF skills.
Balancing classes is a tricky business.
Killing Plague the Fed Engineer in his Chel Grett...
Bonus Defense: +85% to +166.2%
Hull: 49,665
Hull Damage Resistance: Kinetic 24.6% to 66.8% / Energy 27.0% to 55.2%
Hull Heals:
2833.1 every 14.8s
10073.1 over 15s every 43.4s
15033.5 every 3m49.6s
Shields: 10,332
Shield Damage Reduction: 59.6% to 79.1% (though, I still believe that it caps at 75%...another discussion though)
Shield Heals:
1424.2 every 15s
745.6 every 43.4s
3187.5 over 15s every 43.4s
5319 over 30s every 3m49.6s
Killing Plague "not" the Fed Engineer in his Chel Grett...
Bonus Defense: +85% to +166.2%
Hull: 49,665
Hull Damage Resistance: Kinetic 24.6% to 66.5% / Energy 27.0% to 54.2%
Hull Heals:
2532.4 every 14.8s
9004.1 over 15s every 43.4s
Shields: 10,332
Shield Damage Reduction: 56.8% to 62.6%
Shield Heals:
1424.2 every 15s
666.4 every 43.4s
2848.5 over 15s every 43.4s
When Plague dies, how much longer did he live because he's an Engineer? Maybe 1-3 seconds...
edit: With PvE it's a different story entirely. Being an Eng makes a major difference there as far as survivability goes. You're not being hit by chained SNBs, Tractors/Tractor Mines, VMs, DOFF'd Scrambles, etc, etc, etc.
This is a case where numbers in a vacuum do not tell the whole story.;)
Just like how there are Tacs out there that have damage at the end of a match so low, you wonder if they ever decloaked at all.
If you have some ideas how to make them better mitigators of damage, feel free to post them. At least that's what they are specialized to do.
Ideally it should be like this
---- TAC ---- , ---- ENG ---- , ---- SCI ----
This would be an even distrubution of roles.
What we have is closer to this
---- TAC
, - ENG - ,
SCI ----
Where the other classes have been given about 90% of the effectiveness of our field
So what SHOULD be a fair way to fix this would be to extend the abilities out into the other fields creating a jack of all trades, master of none. This is seen in a LOT of games.
But when you mention increasing damage or adding some kind of unique damage, people say "roll a tac". If you go the other way they say "roll a sci"
Unless the class skills and or usefulness of the engineer class is allowed to tread upon the hypocritically sacred ground of damage or support, the balance will look like this in a few patches.
---- TAC
, E ,
SCI ----
Not even enough room for the 3 letters.. which is appropriate.
Why should any class be overlooked as a viable option for pvp or pve, when you compare it to the others?
Many games have classes that overlap to one degree or another. But if you mention this attempt at balance for the engineer, the community goes ape.
So all they want is PEW PEW PEW or to TRIBBLE black holes... and the other players can just go reroll.
Odd... since engineer is such an iconic role in Star Trek that is relegated to garbage in a Star Trek game.
But that is what the community and the devs want. Their actions speak as loud as their words.
Put up a good idea and I'll come out and say so.
I don't think I've seen you do that, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Maybe you missed this post?
Those are some of the proposed ideas that I do like.
What are your ideas?
That's pretty much what everyone else is saying too except DDIS wants the power cap at 150 and you want it at 130. I personally would like to see it at 135-140 so an eng gets a boost but doesn't step on a tac's alpha.
The other two classes have almost completely taken over an eng's designed roll. The only way to make an eng competitive will be to take on some of the other rolls too. I mean really, a pre-made does great without an eng, because there's no roll for an eng. I don't think we're going to get any "unique" ideas for an eng because: 1) this game doesn't seem to be designed for anything else. 2) the simpler the idea the easier it is and more probable it is to get done.
I totally understand why you don't want an engineer to get an alpha just as well as a tac, but it would be nice if for 30 seconds an engineer can competitively alpha but not as good as a tac and do science stuffs but not as good as a sci. It seems only fair. Sciscorts and tac/sci can already be competitive.
This would all help in PVEland too where engineers are the only class actively excluded form premade teams for nowin.
balancing is so tricky with the romulans, im not sure they tried! if you compare them to other factions, they actually compete with federation tacs. romulans are the best, and it sounds like you know that if you did actually delete non romulan characters :eek:
heres a bit more like what it would look like if we compared spike potential
Fed Tac
APA + APO 3 + tacfleet (22%) + EPTW 1 = 107% Flat Damage Boost
fed eng
+30% from higher cap and nadion + APO 3 + EPTW 1 = 65% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Tac
APA + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + + tacfleet (22%) + AMBUSH = 132% Flat Damage Boost
Rom Eng
+30% from higher cap and nadion + APO 3 + EPTW 1 + AMBUSH = 90% Flat Damage Boost
for that 30% damage buff to be so flat and across the board, you will need nadion up, or a large amount of overcaping even on DHCs to consistently get between a 20% and 30% bonus from weapons power alone.
its a little bit not as close as you portrayed. tacs still have a 42% spike potential advantage, when the eng has 0 power drain.
I think you, yourself, have given the best argument as to why PvP (and by extension, this game) has become irrecoverably broken.
Well I think DDIS is trying to find a good number, he's a guy who is concerned about balance and he doesn't necessarily have much stake in Eng suddenly overtaking Tac.
If you scroll up a bit, the comparison I gave was done assuming a hypotetical Weapons cap of 140.
It also shows why it shouldn't happen.
Ok, just so we are clear here.
Tanking is not a role in PvP.
It isn't.
Surviving damage is a means to an end in PvP.
This is why being a specialist at "tanking" is kind of irrelevant.
The devs could make Engineers unkillable 99% of the time regardless of the scenario and it still wouldn't matter because being "a tank" is a PvE role.
It's baffling man.
I mean, we have a dev saying they didn't give the Rom Temporal Sci & Destroyer sing cores or battle cloaks because they were worried about power-creep...
Yet most of what was released in LoR completely escaped this sense of worry.
Truly baffling.
Well, I never delete (I just buy more slots). They don't really get used for PvP anymore though.
I don;t consider Tac fleet personally.
It's once every 5 minutes. That's an eternity at this point in the game.
Right now an ambush striker should be working the following pattern:
APA Cycle > Kill cycle every 90s [High rate of success]
45s later
Sub-cycle > Attempted kill without APA [Moderate rate of success - 30% to 50% or so]
Success % will increase with a bit of teamwork, or go down vs. skilled opposition. A lot of variables here.
Tac fleet is nice, 2 Tacs can dole it out between themselves every 2 1/2 minutes - but that's still almost every 2 APA kill cycles.
Usually, I reserve Tac fleet for when a kill attempt isn't going well and just a little bit more will push it into success.
I certainly don't rely on it for spike though.
Romulans are so far above everyone else its really eyeopening. We knew Cryptic was 100% on board with power creep so long as it sold ships and Dil, but the Romulans are not a "creep".
With LoR Cryptic really dd go by the numbers:
Turns a recognizable marketable name into a generic Rebel Alliance for mass appeal: Check
Makes the new ships more powerful than anything before it by giving it special abilities at a token cost: Check
Makes the new Boffs more powerful than anything before: Check
The list goes on.
There have been matches where my fed tacscort would've been more helpful if it had stayed dead and not respawned. In a match where everyone else is cloaked all you are is a liability. I've even seen the dual BO decloak alpha 1 second kill builds that can be made now. Sure, they often need a crit, but romulans get that too.
Do I want to re-roll though? I really don't.
If we look beyond emotional attachment I don't think STO has any real merits. They may as well start changing everything to a generic look and feel and drop the ST license.
I may level up a Romulan tac, but I know I will not do the reps, get the gear, jump through all the hoops again. Why bother? I don't care about romulans enough for that, heck I wouldn't have cared about actual RSE romulans that much either. Besides, how soon until we can expect the next faction to be released and make you restart it all. No thank you Cryptic. I will stick to my characters for as long as I can, but PvP may as well be nothing but another Dil grind as more experienced players get their romulans repped and geared.
Edit: I should add however, that I AM getting a lot of fun making sure everyone that shows an interest in the game knows EXACTLY what's happening. People will say "but its Star trek, I'll play it regardless"... but do they? I feel it counts as my good deed for the day. If you don't like the way something is going anything you do to curb it is a moral vicoty, much like getting at least one kill in some PvP matches.
Its only irrecoverably broken if Cryptic refuses to nerf the romulans. Many thought it would've happened by now..... maybe they haven't met their sales projections yet?
yeah...that's not what I was saying...
Remember a little over a year ago when there were more engineering healers because the engineer could heal others with skills then keep himself alive with personal heals? That isn't useful anymore because with rep and embassy consoles anyone can "tank" and with a science healer you get an extra SNB to boot. That's what I was saying about the other classes taking over the engineer's designed roll..not about just surviving.
Also, drunk's numbers look pretty solid and an engineer could easily pass on an EPS to a tac to get even more of a punch or even pass it on to a healer for more surviveability or better heals or even to a sci for better science awesomeness. Then engineers would have a place as support rather than just surviving.
Not a fan of the power creep, but a Fed waiting to complain about power creep until now is just too funny
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I think you need to reevaluate that they're damage mitigation specialists thing again. That's why I posted that two sets of numbers. There were only little boosts outside of MW that's normally every four minutes and RSF that's normally every minute and a half.
APA: +Dmg, +CrtH, +CrtD, +Turn
FoMM: -DRR, -Stealth
GDF: <50% hull, +Dmg scaling
Tac Initiative: -Recharge (Tac BOFFs)
Tac Fleet: +Dmg, +Maneuvers, +Targeting
Cripping Fire: -Acc on Crit
Last Ditch: +DRR w/GDF
Photonic Fleet: Crates <= 3 Photonic pets
Scattering Field: +DRR (Energy)
Sensor Scan: -DRR, -Stealth, +Perception
SNB: -Buffs, +Recharge
Sci Fleet: +Emitters, +Insulators, +Shield Damage Reduction
Conservation: +Exotic DMG when hit, can 3 stack.
Capacitor: -Recharge Photonic Fleet
EPS Power: +Power, +Power Transfer
MW: +Hull Heal, +Shield Heal
Nadion: +Drain Resistance Rating
RSF: +Shield HoT, +Shield Damage Reduction
Eng Fleet: +DRR, +Hull Repair, +Core Potential
Grace: conditional reset of MW CD
Manifold: +Power with EPtX
Eng Fleet normally has a 5m CD for +26.6 DRR.
RSF normally has a 1m30s CD for +Shield Damage Reduction that scales with Shield Power - so up to +43.1%.
Sci Fleet normally has a 5m CD for +33% Shield Damage Reduction.
Scattering Field normally has a 3m CD for +Energy Damage Resistance Rating that scales with Aux Power - so up to ~+101/102 DRR.
Even GDF /w LDE provides scaling +DRR.
Maybe it's looking at BOFFs as well?
APD, APO
AtD, AtS, EPtS, ExS
HE, PH, TSS
That's just mitigation - what about avoidance/reduction through other means?
APO(+Def), BtW(weapon disable), TT(shield distribution)
Aceton(reduce Energy damage), EPtA(boost Aux boosted defenses), EPtE(move out of range/arc), RSP(shield heal w/ Energy hits)
Jam Sensors(break target lock), Scramble Sensors(break target lock), FBP(deterrent), VM(potential weapon disable)
That's not even getting into things like using DPA/DPA to drop mines to eat incoming damage - using Photonic Fleet to do the same. Using TBR/TB to push hold or destroy targetables. PSW to do the same. Etc, etc, etc - the game is overflowing with defensive abilities and means to mitigate damage...heck, I didn't even get into the Reputation stuff or any gear stuff.
...the Eng is by no means a specialist in mitigating damage.
Which goes back to what I said about Sci trodding over the Eng, and the post where I suggested changes to the Captain Abilities (similar changes would have to take place with the BOFF abilities).
To make the Eng the mitigation specialist, the "defensive specialist", the defensive support - then Sci needs to give back the Operations stuff.
Tac - Damage
Eng - Defensive Support
Sci - Offensive Support
Why? The KDF had advantages (but lets call then "uniqueness" for now) that was clearly aimed at enticing players to make KDF characters. What has happened with LoR is Cryptic trying to do the same thing but on a grander scale. Cryptic probably deduced or worked out that the reason it didn't work to make the KDF grow was that people generally did not care for the KDF itself, even with all its extra "uniqueness". Their solution was to remake a known name into something more generic and palatable to the masses, then gave them more "uniqueness".
But hey, I'm not the one who's faction became irrelevant beyond doff farming with LoR, so what do I know right?
It's the otherway around. Other than a few consoles and for a little while carriers Feds had/have advantages in ships. Btw, that started w/the 1st major C-Store release prior to F2P. The fact you are unable/willing to admit this is too funny.
Edit: As far as KDF population, it's always been low for the same reason PvP has been low. Cryptic spent TRIBBLE resources to build it for years. It wasn't until LoR that it was actually "finished".
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Gotta agree with VD on this to a point. But first I would like to say something about STO in general.
No ship, carrier, or anything can be pigeonholed into a singular role or archtype. It doesn't work. Everything and everyone is a hybrid. Some may gain more advantage from focusing and min/maxing but that is not the point.
Case in point. Which is more likely to save you from a nasty alpha strike? Sub-Nuking the attacker or using Miracle Worker? *edit addon* Trick question the right answer is APO to break the hold and get your bonus defense back up before the crit overflow kills you.
Engineers have the same exact problem cruisers did in the past. Everyone has it stuck in their head they are 'tanks' when the system mechanics and abilities do not support that concept in any way.
So let the engineers be hybrids via higher subsystem power caps with abilities. Combine that with an uber cleanse MW and the ability to use it on others and they will have a nitch to call their own. By higher power cap I am referring to using EPS transfer and allowing it to increase the cap of all subsystems by 5 or 10.
I'd say that played a role in it - wasn't the sole cause, but it played a major role in it.
People overestimate the popularity of Klingons. Heck, even with the Romulans - people overestimate their popularity. Star Trek is basically a Federation/Starfleet franchise - all the series, all the movies - Federation/Starfleet.
There are still a majority of Fedbunnies running around out there. The Romulans haven't changed that.
But what the Romulans did show - was that if Cryptic had given that much attention to the KDF in the first place, the KDF would have likely had better numbers than they did. "Finishing" up the KDF at this point, though - their shiny is still pretty dim compared to what they did for the Roms and when you look at the itemization, yeah...meh.
Have to wonder if at some point in the design/development process, the KDF weren't simply expected to be "Monster Play ala LotRO" - that they decided to try to do more, but they were never really into do more (one of the many countless half-assed things in STO).