Eng/Cruiser combine for the most survivability. But they have too much damage. (Yes, I'm going to say that.)
The eng cruiser can do good numbers but not the spike needed to kill and the numbers while high in pvp are not that meaningful. But really they need the too much damage because the survivability isn't tested when they are not the threat the science or escort ships are in pvp.
There are many threads how eng/cruisers are good ships but across the board inferior to other ships, except in rare heal builds, but my cruisers are still second fiddle to my recluse healer with a science captain.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
As far as space goes, i am not sure you can split the ship and the captain. the way teh system is set up there are not just tac, eng, sci or cruiser, escort, sci.
Its probably in this that the game struggles in balance and what not, perhaps if captains only had ground traits and the ships themselves and the boffs are responsible for all space capabilities it might be easier to tweak.
The Career choice is just itemization for whatever Class/Role you're selecting with your Ship. You're picking 5 abilities and potentially 2 traits to add to your overall itemization.
Consider all the itemization that takes place in regard to putting together that Class/Role, eh?
Ship, BOFFs, DOFFs, Weapons, Deflector, Engines, Core, Shields, Tac Consoles, Eng Consoles, Sci Consoles, Uni Consoles, Devices, potential Pets, any set bonuses that come from the gear, Reputation passives, Skill tree (that's not Career restricted), and then 5 Career abilities and possibly 2 traits.
That's how the system is set up.
All of this...
Ship, BOFFs, DOFFs, Weapons, Deflector, Engines, Core, Shields, Tac Consoles, Eng Consoles, Sci Consoles, Uni Consoles, Devices, potential Pets, any set bonuses that come from the gear, Reputation passives, Skill tree (that's not Career restricted),
...could be the same, with this being the only difference...
and then 5 Career abilities and possibly 2 traits.
So it is a case of looking at those 5 Career abilities and the potential 2 traits - as far as the flavoring they add to the overall itemization.
Tac
Attack Pattern Alpha, Fire on My Mark, Tactical Initiative, Go Down Fighting, Tactical Fleet Crippling Fire, Last Ditch Effort
Eng
Rotate Shield Frequency, EPS Power Transfer, Nadion Inversion, Miracle Worker, Engineering Fleet EPS Manifold Efficiency, Grace Under Fire
The Tac has 2 "selfish" abilities and 1 "selfish" trait. The Sci has 0 "selfish" abilities and 1 "selfish" trait. The Eng has 3 "selfish" abilities and 2 "selfish" traits.
But with that, even the 2 "selfish" Tac abilities will actually help the team. The Eng "selfish" abilities may or may not indirectly help the team, depending on the ship/role the Eng is playing.
So they're already separated...they're already providing that flavoring. It's just a case, imho, that the flavoring is off. What's the point of the Eng?
If those 5 abilities were along the lines of what I suggested previously, then you still get flavoring...you still have a variety of roles...but you also get a reason to bring the Eng to a team.
my cruisers are still second fiddle to my recluse healer with a science captain.
Without getting into the Eng/Sci Oddy vs. Sci/Recluse debate...I believe the key part is the Sci in that.
Subnucleonic Beam
Sensor Scan
Scattering Field
Photonic Fleet
Science Fleet
vs.
Miracle Worker
Rotate Shield Frequency
EPS Power Transfer
Nadion Inversion
Engineering Fleet
Look what the Sci is bringing to the team, eh? That's an awesome mix of Offensive and Defensive Support. Look at what the Eng is bringing to the team, eh? Still looking? C'mon, there's only 5 things - surely you can find them? Maybe it's hiding between the letters? Nope, it's just not there.
2 Sci Recluse trying to keep each other alive vs. 2 Eng Sci Ody trying to keep each other alive, outside of the BOFF abilities...the Sci guys actually have stuff that they can use to help keep the other guy alive. The Eng guys don't. 2 Sci Sci Ody would be better...
In the end though, I know it's a waste of time to discuss it - but I'm still waiting on the CD for Flying High - so I'm bored. I know it's a waste because what I suggest isn't going to make many players happy. They don't want Eng to be Defensive/Offensive Support - they want their Eng to be damage superstars that are rocking everybody's world while sitting in a Cruiser tanking all the damage in the world. The Sci won't like it because it means nerfing Sci - they wouldn't be the support superstars they are. Tac probably won't even like it because if it means potentially splitting Eng/Sci, they're losing SNBs. Some Tac won't care, because they don't need 3x Bill Nye's breaking out a trunk full o' dirty tricks, lol.
Oh well, CD's done...so off I go to fly around Risa. 51 more courses to do of the 675 I had to do for my guys...meh.
But what about making it require EPS? 150 does seem like a lot, but what if EPS lets you cap at 120? engineers need more team skills and buffing EPS would help.
Hi rmy,
I'm not sure what you're saying here.
125 is the current weapon power cap for damage increase, there is some over-capping effect that may or may not be WAI that curbs drain (but does not continue to increase the direct damage bonus).
in situations were multiple healers can make everyone invincible as it is, and theres about 50% overhearing already, big deal honestly. the cost of running a ship with aux heals this hot is 1 less set of sci captain force multipliers, and your proboly going to need EPtA2, if not 3 to get 150 aux anyway. theres not room for that on a heal boat. there would not be enough energy to go around to keep several subsystems at 140/150 anyway, a 150 aux healer is not going to have 150 shields and or 140 weapons power up all the time too.
Hey drunk,
Since I can run 125 Weapons / 130 shields currently on a Tac captain - I think a smartly played Eng/Healer would be able to at least hit similar numbers with Shieilds/Aux.
Remember, the new elite cores allow for even more power, as well as the new Eng trait.
overcaping does not increase the effect cap of 125 as it is, it just lets more shots fire at or near the cap. 125 is the current effect cap for weapons power, and no core increases that to 130, so for an eng 140 would be the max weapons power. every point of energy over 50 adds 2% more damage, so going from 125 to 140 will give your best shots a 30% dps increase. total,
You're saying "that's all" they can get, but +30% flat damage is huge.:P
having an effect cap at 140, and bending over backward to over cap from 140 to overcap to the same extent you can over cap from 125 now is not terribly possible without EPS transfer.
Yes, but you're still thinking beams.
There is no reason for Engineers with a damage boost like this to run out and hop into a beam boat.
I'd be putting one into a Warbird with DHCs and a DBB faster than you can say "double tap". :P
Or just looking at my JHHEC, and ignoring warbirds for the moment.
I could, comfortably, run 146 power with just EPTW 1 before Plasmonic Leech kicks in. That's with only 3 ranks in weapon performance.
Plas leech with a moderate spec in flow caps would bring that to 162.
So before we even add the Eng +power trait, or go to a higher rank of EPTW - I'm already at a 22 points of weapon power over your suggestion of 140, or 150 with a warp core.
I'm very confident that most of us could design an Eng that could run both 150 weapons power, and 130 shields power all of the time while still being north of 75 Engines for a 3x subsystem AMP bonus.
That's just too much raw damage increase with no reason for it, and with no corresponding loss of Eng mitigation.
This dev team is, imo, unlikely to ever nerf Eng mitigation powers in order to give them more offense - and honestly speaking it's not needed. There is already a class designed to be a damage dealer.
I see the anger focused at them in posts. What we are supposed to do, what we are not supposed to do. How much we suck..etc. Sorry, but it is not our fault
After reading your post, and my own posts because I've called them "tanks" for the sake of using a common term as well - honestly I don't think they are even "tanks".
They are mitigation specialists, for whatever reasons the Devs saw fit to make them such a thing.
If they were tanks, they would have at least had some kind of threat generation mechanics built into the class - but they don't.
On top of this none of the threat increasing skills, items or powers are even under engineering thematically nor mechanically.
+Th Sci consoles and Deflectors.
None for Eng consoles.
+Threat Control Skill under Tactical tree.
+Threat DOFF linked to Attack Pattern Delta - a min Lt level Tactical power.
After reading your post, and my own posts because I've called them "tanks" for the sake of using a common term as well - honestly I don't think they are even "tanks".
They are mitigation specialists, for whatever reasons the Devs saw fit to make them such a thing.
If they were tanks, they would have at least had some kind of threat generation mechanics built into the class - but they don't.
It's kind of funny thinking about it...yeah, I normally use the "Tank" part just in regarding to tanking damage - the mitigation specialist as you said...without clarifying that I'm talking about the tanking part, it does come across wrong.
Technically, the Tac would be the best actual Tank. As you said, the +Th and Starship Threat are available to everybody - but the Tac will do the most damage and thus actually have the highest threat. Beyond that, with the Crippling Fire trait - reducing accuracy could lead to more misses and less need for any mitigation/self-healing the Eng provides (healing otherwise being covered by an actual healer).
Kind of paints a more bleak picture of the Eng.
Might want to say that they're good for solo players, but even there - with the level of gearing in the game for the content, both Tac and Sci surpass them even there...meh/lol.
125 is the current weapon power cap for damage increase, there is some over-capping effect that may or may not be WAI that curbs drain (but does not continue to increase the direct damage bonus).
sorry, that post was kinda confusing
I was saying take DDIS's idea about raising the power cap for engineers and make it a buff for EPS Power Transfer. Then engineers wouldn't get an always-on crazy power boost like you said, but they would get a noticeable boost.
Since EPS can be cast on a team mate, it would be a nice buff for an engineer in team play.
I was saying take DDIS's idea about raising the power cap for engineers and make it a buff for EPS Power Transfer. Then engineers wouldn't get an always-on crazy power boost like you said, but they would get a noticeable boost.
Since EPS can be cast on a team mate, it would be a nice buff for an engineer in team play.
just an idea
I understand where ddis is coming from with the power cap boost for Engineers, but let's break it down if we limited it to just EPS.
EPS is 30s uptime with 120s CD.
150 Weapons cap = APA level damage boost (i.e. spike)
While Tac would still have a better uptime on APA, Eng would have the same level of spike, on perfect synch with SNB cycles and would still be Engineers with all of their resilience.
I just don't think Engineers can get a damage boost without losing some of their mitigation.
IWhile Tac would still have a better uptime on APA, Eng would have the same level of spike, on perfect synch with SNB cycles and would still be Engineers with all of their resilience.
Um, let me know if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly (and if the wiki isn't wrong) APA gives up to:
Boosting the power level cap from 125 to 150 (that is, +25 power points) would only increase the potential strength of weapons by 50%, without giving either the crit chance or crit severity bonuses. Additionally, the +25 power cap to engines would give a speed and turn bonus, but not nearly close to the +120% of APA. Plus, the engineer actually has to be able to fill these power caps; while it's true that tying these higher power caps to EPS Power Transfer would definitely make it easier to fill them, it's not a guaranteed boost like APA is.
Not really trying to push one way or the other, but it seems like you're exaggerating the effects that the higher power caps would have in terms of damage. It offers the Engineer a bit of added flexibility in both offense and defense, and if it's tied to EPS Power Transfer it may become a valuable skill in team play. On top of that, it's also thematically appropriate; nothing satisfies the RPer in me like being able to say "I'M GIVING HER ALL SHE'S GOT", and having that actually be more than what other captains can do.
(Plus, and I think you'll agree, EPS Power Transfer and Nadion Inversion are probably the two biggest duds of the engineer's arsenal. They need some kind of improvement, whatever that improvement might entail. :P)
Eng/cruiser are the best healers in the game. You shouldn?t be trying to be a tank but a healer. That?s what they are meant to do. Just look at the Boff powers.
Sci has 3 heals and Eng have 5. All 3 Sci are tier 3 at Lt. Com while Eng have 3 at Commander.
The roles right now in game are
Tac ? dps
Sci ? Offensive support
Eng ? defensive SUPPORT (not just defensive)
With my Eng/Sci Oddy I can be healing 3 people at a time with very strong heals.
Me - MW, RSF, EPtS II
Other 1 - AtSIF III and ES II
Other 2 ? TSS III and HE II
Plus I still have TT or ET and PH I ready and AtSIF III, HE I, and TSS II will be ready in 15 sec.
I can keep my Shield and Aux power max out, plus my skill bonuses for shield and hull healing are 250ish to 200ish.(max around 450ish for shield and 270ish for hull I will get there someday just need the EC )
My smallest hull heal is about 8k and the smallest shield heal over 20k (over the full time of the power).
Large hull heal over 22k plus over 30 resistance
Part of the problem isn?t that Eng are weak at their job it?s that other classes have gotten too good at staying alive with their limited Boff powers. If you don?t die often why would you need a healer?
The other part is a healer is useless in PvE.
My healer has no fear of good Tac/Escort captain or a few average captains but I know I will never ever kill them that?s why I keep the the Tac/Escort captain on my team alive, it?s their job to kill.
Also Nadion Inversion is dumb something to boost heals would be better.
With my Eng/Sci Oddy I can be healing 3 people at a time with very strong heals.
Me - MW, RSF, EPtS II
Other 1 - AtSIF III and ES II
Other 2 - TSS III and HE II
The Sci/Sci Ody would give up the MW and RSF. They would pick up Sensor Scan, Subnucleonic Beam, Scattering Field, Photonic Fleet, and Science Fleet. Four of those five can reduce the need for healing. Heck, even Sensor Scan in detecting cloaked enemies would allow for preemptive strikes which in turn would reduce the need for healing.
Sensor Scan, Subnucleonic Beam, and Photonic Fleet would also aid in the team taking out members of the other team.
That Sci/Sci Ody could actually SNB your RSF/EPtS2. They can SNB off the damage resistance buff Other 1's getting from the AtS3. They can SNB off the TSS3/HE2 that Other 2's getting.
As an Eng, you can only watch as the Sci is able to neutralize what you're trying to do.
Heck, the Tac/Sci Ody would likewise give up MW, RSF...but would bring Tac Fleet, Tac Initiative, and even FoMM for TT gaps to the team. Add in some random crits with Crippling Fire that can lead to reduced damage from increased misses.
Add in the crosshealing that will be taking place - well, MW/RSF just end up not being missed...kind of like the Eng.
edit: Don't get me wrong, in the chaotic - silent - unfocused world of PUGland, an Eng/Cruiser healer can really help. When you've got everybody shooting at random targets, what the Sci brings wouldn't matter as much. But then again, the Eng can shine in so many ways in that area of PvP...the more coordination that's introduced, though - the more the Eng loses value.
The Sci/Sci Ody would give up the MW and RSF. They would pick up Sensor Scan, Subnucleonic Beam, Scattering Field, Photonic Fleet, and Science Fleet. Four of those five can reduce the need for healing. Heck, even Sensor Scan in detecting cloaked enemies would allow for preemptive strikes which in turn would reduce the need for healing.
Sensor Scan, Subnucleonic Beam, and Photonic Fleet would also aid in the team taking out members of the other team.
That Sci/Sci Ody could actually SNB your RSF/EPtS2. They can SNB off the damage resistance buff Other 1's getting from the AtS3. They can SNB off the TSS3/HE2 that Other 2's getting.
As an Eng, you can only watch as the Sci is able to neutralize what you're trying to do.
Heck, the Tac/Sci Ody would likewise give up MW, RSF...but would bring Tac Fleet, Tac Initiative, and even FoMM for TT gaps to the team. Add in some random crits with Crippling Fire that can lead to reduced damage from increased misses.
Add in the crosshealing that will be taking place - well, MW/RSF just end up not being missed...kind of like the Eng.
edit: Don't get me wrong, in the chaotic - silent - unfocused world of PUGland, an Eng/Cruiser healer can really help. When you've got everybody shooting at random targets, what the Sci brings wouldn't matter as much. But then again, the Eng can shine in so many ways in that area of PvP...the more coordination that's introduced, though - the more the Eng loses value.
True I didn?t think of it like that.
What if?
1.Eng had the option of a trait that boosted all heals 20% or something.
2.MW and EPS worked on everyone on the team (smaller amount)
3.Nadion Inversion was replaced by a power that increased the bleed thru on enemy shields.
MW needs to be castable on others and come with a build in 'cleanse ALL'. If subnuke can clear all buffs I see no logical reason MW shouldn't clear all debuffs.
EPS Transfer needs to increase max power levels by 5 to 10 for all subsystems while active.
Nadion Inversion can remain nitch and borderline useless as not all abilities need to be amazing.
Result? Engs do become the best healers and also gain a wee bit of offensive teeth OR atleast a decent buff (EPS) for the team's attacker.
... Snip ... But then again, the Eng can shine in so many ways in that area of PvP...the more coordination that's introduced, though - the more the Eng loses value.
I'm not really buying this tbh.
It's not that there aren't potential effective builds out there for teams, it's people don't want to be or be seen as over the top. Some of the best debuffs out there aren't dependent on a Sci Captain ability, but instead pets/consoles/boff+doffs. An Eng can survive longer allowing for more debuff/cc spam.
How much would SNB be missed w/5 carriers spamming FaW, SNB doffs, placate proc, SS w/doffs, elite pets, tb&tholian mines AMS etc? Not many would stay to even fight such a team.
Engineers may not have the best debuffs or burst damage, but they do have the ability to survive to use more of the communal ones over time. If they choose builds which happen to make the most of whats out there.
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Boosting the power level cap from 125 to 150 (that is, +25 power points) would only increase the potential strength of weapons by 50%, without giving either the crit chance or crit severity bonuses.
Ok, now you with the "only"! :P
+50% flat damage bonus is humongous.
This isn't like a Tac console, this is not modifying the base.
+5% crit? Romulans are swimming in crit. +5% is more, it's better than "not 5%" but you are underestimating the best part of APA.
The real raw power of APA has always come from the +50% flat damage boost. It's huge.
It adds so much extra damage that it leads to Tacs leading in "sustained" DPS parsings simply due to the 30s spikes increasing the overall.
The Crit and CrtD is icing on the cake.
It's why APO 3 (at half the bonus) has been used as a part of sub-alpha strikes.
It's why +25% flat damage decloaking Romulan Ambush hits so hard, and has increased potential spike so much.
And the suggestions is that an Eng should have access to this much Raw DMG increase on all the time? Seriously, this can never be allowed to happen.
Even having it on at 1/4th uptime (EPS) vs. Tac 1/3rd uptime (APA) makes no sense.
Not really trying to push one way or the other, but it seems like you're exaggerating the effects that the higher power caps would have in terms of damage. It offers the Engineer a bit of added flexibility in both offense and defense,
If you think I'm exaggerating the effects of higher power caps, play a few matches but don't set any single power above 100.
Try it on a Tac/Escort, 100 weapons power.
Let me know how it goes.;)
The main point to take away is that there is literally no reason for Engineers to have a way to directly, through career powers, increase their damage.
Tac's have no single way through career powers to increase their survivability.
You want to do a mini-alpha in an Eng? It's there, it already exists.
Don't think this is possible? Tacs can already, and should be, doing this between their APA cycles.
You want to play the damage dealer? Play the damage dealer or work with what's available to you thanks to power creep.
That's not what's being asked for, people want all their mitigation tools with more raw damage increase.
I sympathize with people not wanting to re-roll their characters, but I've basically shelved all of my Fed/KDF Tacs, all of their fleet gear, all of their rep, all of their rep gear, all of their lockbox ships (JHAS, JHEC, Orb Weaver, DKora, etc) in favor a new Romulan because that's where the game has brought us.
Power creep, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, actually has boosted the damage capabilities of Eng and Sci, the way that is has also increased everyone's survivability.
It is, unfortunately, the nature of the STO beast.
Since I can run 125 Weapons / 130 shields currently on a Tac captain - I think a smartly played Eng/Healer would be able to at least hit similar numbers with Shieilds/Aux.
Remember, the new elite cores allow for even more power, as well as the new Eng trait.
You're saying "that's all" they can get, but +30% flat damage is huge.:P
That depends on how we use it.
Flat damage bonuses aren't just "pressure" or "DPS" increases, they are also spike boosters.
140 or 150 weapons cap, is near permanent APA levels of power.
Stack that with EPTW 1~3, APO 3, Decloak Ambush.
Suddenly you are spiking people to death better than a Tac, more frequently and with all of your mitigation powers available.
Yes, but you're still thinking beams.
There is no reason for Engineers with a damage boost like this to run out and hop into a beam boat.
I'd be putting one into a Warbird with DHCs and a DBB faster than you can say "double tap". :P
Or just looking at my JHHEC, and ignoring warbirds for the moment.
I could, comfortably, run 146 power with just EPTW 1 before Plasmonic Leech kicks in. That's with only 3 ranks in weapon performance.
Plas leech with a moderate spec in flow caps would bring that to 162.
So before we even add the Eng +power trait, or go to a higher rank of EPTW - I'm already at a 22 points of weapon power over your suggestion of 140, or 150 with a warp core.
I'm very confident that most of us could design an Eng that could run both 150 weapons power, and 130 shields power all of the time while still being north of 75 Engines for a 3x subsystem AMP bonus.
That's just too much raw damage increase with no reason for it, and with no corresponding loss of Eng mitigation.
This dev team is, imo, unlikely to ever nerf Eng mitigation powers in order to give them more offense - and honestly speaking it's not needed. There is already a class designed to be a damage dealer.
to over cap to the same extent most do at the 125 cap, you would need about 180 for beams and 160 for dhc ships, and you can still only set it to 100. as a result, nadion and EPS would tottaly not suck anymore with this change. since there is no core that raises weapons power, 140 would be the limit, and so the top potential bonus would be 30%. i cant help but think of all those times APA, APO3, and tac fleet were stacked and how easily i tanked, and other have tanked me with damage stacked that high without even breaching shields. aside from someone useing a double tap, you just need EPtS, TSS and TT ready with good reaction time. so just potentially having a shot or 2 fired at 30% more damage, but most shots still fired in a more normal 125 range, still does not strike me as any sort of i win button. useing nadion and EPS together though will create pretty hot damage, but still comfortably lower damage then a tac stacking his buffs.
its not so much about an eng being able to deal more damage, its about having a reason to exist. being an energy wizard jack of all trades that uses raw power to approach what the other 2 captain types can do. tacs will still have the highest spike, scis will have the best debuffs, but eng will have stronger damage over time, a bit stronger shields, faster engines, and hotter aux abilities. thats something on the level of sci and tac captains.
to over cap to the same extent most do at the 125 cap, you would need about 180 for beams and 160 for dhc ships, and you can still only set it to 100. as a result, nadion and EPS would tottaly not suck anymore with this change. since there is no core that raises weapons power, 140 would be the limit, and so the top potential bonus would be 30%.
Well, my testing on overcapping showed the benefits to DHCs to be insignificant. It's not really a factor with that.
its not so much about an eng being able to deal more damage, its about having a reason to exist. being an energy wizard jack of all trades that uses raw power to approach what the other 2 captain types can do.
This is probably where we differ. I don't see them as strictly power wizards, I see them as mitigation specialists (with the power management being a sub-specialty).
I think they really exist at this point for players that want or need the most mitigation they can get.
Is that a useful thing for most of us? No, not really.
How much would SNB be missed w/5 carriers spamming FaW, SNB doffs, placate proc, SS w/doffs, elite pets, tb&tholian mines AMS etc? Not many would stay to even fight such a team.
Have you considered that same 5x man team as Tac, as Sci, as a mix of Tac/Sci?
Well, my testing on overcapping showed the benefits to DHCs to be insignificant. It's not really a factor with that.
DHCs tend to lose any benefit by 135 - the regain of power because of the cycles, even for a 4x DHC/3x Turret boat is usually going to be covered by 135. Yeah, if you're working in a DBB and BOs, you're going to want to cover that in some fashion.
Arrays on the other hand, lol - 180+ would be a good place to start depending on how many you were running. Even with 4x Arrays (+Experimental) and a KCB (has a 4/5 cycle) - there's still loss at 176 because of how the drain mechanic malfunctions. OWA procs, golden - DEM/Marion, fine - Nadion, helps...
Have you considered that same 5x man team as Tac, as Sci, as a mix of Tac/Sci?
Yes, the Tacs would lack the Tac boff stations to take advantage of their spike potential. They would like the ability to w/stand a coordinated ff attack in the slower carriers which lack the movement/boff layout so speed/pilot tanking.
Scis would be better than Tacs w/overlapping resist boosts, but still lack the self repair etc that Eng pilots have. They lack the mitigation drain boosts to maintain higher weapons power to take advantage of things like Dem and Tet glider. The lack of SNBs would made up by the shear numbers of 40 BAs w/SNB doffs. Pets/consoles/Sci Buffs and Doffs would be more than enough CC/Debuffs.
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Well, my testing on overcapping showed the benefits to DHCs to be insignificant. It's not really a factor with that.
Yeah, but there is no reason for the mitigation specialist to have this.
This is probably where we differ. I don't see them as strictly power wizards, I see them as mitigation specialists (with the power management being a sub-specialty).
I think they really exist at this point for players that want or need the most mitigation they can get.
Is that a useful thing for most of us? No, not really.
anyone who has ground out rep, and has stf or fleet equipment is a mitigation specialist. being an eng on top of that is like your ship being a bike with training wheels, wile the other captains are ether a motorcycle or hybrid car.
the value of the self heals are negligible. the eng's ability to offensively effect anyone is negligible, the 2 power skill's effect is negligible, his ability to heal other ship only matches what a sci, or even a tac captain in a heal boat can do since every team heal is a station power. they are negligibility specialist.
some mitigation specialist, hes no better at surviving spike applied too quickly to react to then a tac or sci is. want to know what a REAL mitigation specialist would be able to do? have a built in way to not die when hit with a '1 shot'. a 3 second grace period were their ship is invincible at the point of death, and you can react for a few seconds to save yourself from the brink. but that would be a suck feature to have to deal with in game. id much rather have what i already suggested, mister above average that lacks the ability to truly spike hard enough, or force multiply with debuffs.
how about this, for any power level over 125 to the 140(150 with core) level, the bonus per point of power would be cut in half from 2% to 1%. then an eng would just have a maximum of 15% more, instead of 30% more energy damage.
Yes, the Tacs would lack the Tac boff stations to take advantage of their spike potential. They would like the ability to w/stand a coordinated ff attack in the slower carriers which lack the movement/boff layout so speed/pilot tanking.
Scis would be better than Tacs w/overlapping resist boosts, but still lack the self repair etc that Eng pilots have. They lack the mitigation drain boosts to maintain higher weapons power to take advantage of things like Dem and Tet glider. The lack of SNBs would made up by the shear numbers of 40 BAs w/SNB doffs. Pets/consoles/Sci Buffs and Doffs would be more than enough CC/Debuffs.
I wasn't talking about 5x Tac/Sci in that group vs. a normal group. I was talking about the 5x Tac/Sci vs. the 5x Eng.
some mitigation specialist, hes no better at surviving spike applied too quickly to react to then a tac or sci is.
vs. 3x BO, if the Eng pops MW right after the first hits - it will trigger right before the third hits; allowing them to survive that which would kill the Tac or Sci. With GUF, they'd also be able to pop MW again at that point. Course, if they don't pop it right after the first, lol - it will trigger after they're already dead. Hit the respawn, and it will be on CD - having triggered but never having healed. Most things have a 0.5s activation, MW sports a 1.0s activation.
I wasn't talking about 5x Tac/Sci in that group vs. a normal group. I was talking about the 5x Tac/Sci vs. the 5x Eng.
Yes, and again there's aren't the boff stations for Tac to truly take advantage of their spike. They'd be the least useful in that kind of support carrier build.
Eng captains have the most anti-debuff abilites, granted they're self only captain powers.
I'd still take the 5 engineers.
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anyone who has ground out rep, and has stf or fleet equipment is a mitigation specialist. being an eng on top of that is like your ship being a bike with training wheels, wile the other captains are ether a motorcycle or hybrid car.
You can add 10% crit to a Rom Eng or Rom Sci and you can stack up to +63% flat damage boost with APO 3 + Ambush + EPTW 1 on a Rom Eng or Rom Sci, but we don't hear much conversation about that.
You're talking about gear and equipment, which also exists to increase offense for anyone using it.
I'm talking about class powers and class design.
Mitigation is what they are designed for, and whether or not that makes sense to us or is useful or not to us is not a reason to give them a huge damage boost.
We need to find something that boosts Eng, but there is no reason for it to be damage.
the value of the self heals are negligible. the eng's ability to offensively effect anyone is negligible
Obviously Sci and Tac have better synnergy, but the damage stacking available that I've mentioned above is far from negligible.
You can use that right now to kill people while APA is down.
Which means you can use it if you don't even have APA at all.
I understand the frustration behind Engineers beingwhere they are bud, I'm not trying to argue that they are fine by any stretch or that their design makes sense in the current game.
But Cryptic is never going to nerf current Eng powers, and the only way they can realistically increase Eng damage output is by nerfing mitigation.
On top of that, why do we need that?
We have a damage class, one that half of the career powers are nearly as meaningless as some of the Engineers.
What does having a more survivable slightly lesser damage dealer bring to the table to add value to game play?
If Engineers are ever to have a place, it needs to be unique.
I know I'm kinda being a negative-nancy about it, I really do like my engineering characters, but I just can't help but feel with each new thing, engineers are pushed more and more down.
I'm an engineer myself. So I have MW and a now fair chance of seeing it almost immediately available again. Cute and not to be dismissed.
But, as for DPS, can't out-DPS a Tact really. I can make, say, a fine A2B Fleet Excelsior, and FAW my way to 1st place in SB24.... but so can a Tact Captain -- and he will have a great many innate dmg-boosters to boot. And with both of us having fit the Plasmonic Leech, my Nadion Inversion just isn't really giving me an edge. There will be specific moments that I might briefly out-BO him, power-drain wise, with a properly timed NI, but overall he's gonna do much more DPS.
DPS is tricky to measure, though. Like I'm currently flying a >200 Flow Caps Vesta, with Tachyon beams, Energy Siphon, Tractor Beams, and doff to drain shields along with the latter. That build helps my own DPS, but also that of the entire team, as it makes it easier for everyone to kill 'my' target.
Then there's my Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer: one of my best ships. But, ultimately, only because I finally got some Tact abilities (most notably, cloak + triple, stacking, extra Ambush decloak dmg).
It's a bit sad, though, if you think about it, that the most successful way for me to 'be' is either go Science or pseudo-Tactical.
Yes, and again there's aren't the boff stations for Tac to truly take advantage of their spike. They'd be the least useful in that kind of support carrier build.
Eng captains have the most anti-debuff abilites, granted they're self only captain powers.
I'd still take the 5 engineers.
SNB DOFF spam...you'd have to look at abilities that can't be stripped.
SS DOFF spam...you'd have to consider abilities that can't be used because of CD.
It's like you're letting the Eng keep everything they've got, while removing anything the Tac/Sci have got.
If Engineers are ever to have a place, it needs to be unique.
I still think Tac is a distraction for Eng...that the issue is with Sci. It's the Sci that's doing what the Eng should be doing as well as what the Sci should be doing.
But it makes sense, in a twisted fashion - because Sci is a Cryptic fabrication. The easiest way to see where Sci has trod over Eng is to look at the skill tree.
Tactical Systems Engineering Systems Science and Operation Systems
MW needs to be castable on others and come with a build in 'cleanse ALL'. If subnuke can clear all buffs I see no logical reason MW shouldn't clear all debuffs.
EPS Transfer needs to increase max power levels by 5 to 10 for all subsystems while active.
Nadion Inversion can remain nitch and borderline useless as not all abilities need to be amazing.
Result? Engs do become the best healers and also gain a wee bit of offensive teeth OR atleast a decent buff (EPS) for the team's attacker.
This is basically exactly what I said a few pages ago. People seem to think that we are asking to do all the damage in the world. This is simply not what is being asked.
What we are asking is VIABILITY in a team environment. If some of our abilities were modified to effect another or a group in some manner, we would be MUCH more useful in a premade team.
I don't care if I out-damage an escort or whatnot.. but our abilities should make us desirable in a group.
Furthermore, escorts have become way too tanky and while people here are saying we should not do damage, blah blah blah... how about you should not be able to tank down as much as you do.
Complaining about us dabbling into the realm of the damage dealer when the damage dealer is 90% of the way to pure tank... that seems hypocritical. You have faster turning, the ability to escape and massive burst. You should not have the ability to make a sandwich while taking hits as well.
One or the other..not both. So, before you scream at the engineer/cruiser pilot, perhaps you should realize that what you are complaining could happen has already happened .. but just reversed in the escort field.
Eleven of Twenty-Nine. Thousands of pvp matches done...hundreds of tournaments ran..and still seeing the same problems grow even larger than ever for us engineers.
Comments
The eng cruiser can do good numbers but not the spike needed to kill and the numbers while high in pvp are not that meaningful. But really they need the too much damage because the survivability isn't tested when they are not the threat the science or escort ships are in pvp.
There are many threads how eng/cruisers are good ships but across the board inferior to other ships, except in rare heal builds, but my cruisers are still second fiddle to my recluse healer with a science captain.
The Career choice is just itemization for whatever Class/Role you're selecting with your Ship. You're picking 5 abilities and potentially 2 traits to add to your overall itemization.
Consider all the itemization that takes place in regard to putting together that Class/Role, eh?
Ship, BOFFs, DOFFs, Weapons, Deflector, Engines, Core, Shields, Tac Consoles, Eng Consoles, Sci Consoles, Uni Consoles, Devices, potential Pets, any set bonuses that come from the gear, Reputation passives, Skill tree (that's not Career restricted), and then 5 Career abilities and possibly 2 traits.
That's how the system is set up.
All of this...
Ship, BOFFs, DOFFs, Weapons, Deflector, Engines, Core, Shields, Tac Consoles, Eng Consoles, Sci Consoles, Uni Consoles, Devices, potential Pets, any set bonuses that come from the gear, Reputation passives, Skill tree (that's not Career restricted),
...could be the same, with this being the only difference...
and then 5 Career abilities and possibly 2 traits.
So it is a case of looking at those 5 Career abilities and the potential 2 traits - as far as the flavoring they add to the overall itemization.
Tac
Attack Pattern Alpha, Fire on My Mark, Tactical Initiative, Go Down Fighting, Tactical Fleet
Crippling Fire, Last Ditch Effort
Eng
Rotate Shield Frequency, EPS Power Transfer, Nadion Inversion, Miracle Worker, Engineering Fleet
EPS Manifold Efficiency, Grace Under Fire
Sci
Sensor Scan, Subnucleonic Beam, Scattering Field, Photonic Fleet, Science Fleet
Conservation of Energy, Photonic Capacitor
The Tac has 2 "selfish" abilities and 1 "selfish" trait. The Sci has 0 "selfish" abilities and 1 "selfish" trait. The Eng has 3 "selfish" abilities and 2 "selfish" traits.
But with that, even the 2 "selfish" Tac abilities will actually help the team. The Eng "selfish" abilities may or may not indirectly help the team, depending on the ship/role the Eng is playing.
So they're already separated...they're already providing that flavoring. It's just a case, imho, that the flavoring is off. What's the point of the Eng?
If those 5 abilities were along the lines of what I suggested previously, then you still get flavoring...you still have a variety of roles...but you also get a reason to bring the Eng to a team.
Without getting into the Eng/Sci Oddy vs. Sci/Recluse debate...I believe the key part is the Sci in that.
Subnucleonic Beam
Sensor Scan
Scattering Field
Photonic Fleet
Science Fleet
vs.
Miracle Worker
Rotate Shield Frequency
EPS Power Transfer
Nadion Inversion
Engineering Fleet
Look what the Sci is bringing to the team, eh? That's an awesome mix of Offensive and Defensive Support. Look at what the Eng is bringing to the team, eh? Still looking? C'mon, there's only 5 things - surely you can find them? Maybe it's hiding between the letters? Nope, it's just not there.
2 Sci Recluse trying to keep each other alive vs. 2 Eng Sci Ody trying to keep each other alive, outside of the BOFF abilities...the Sci guys actually have stuff that they can use to help keep the other guy alive. The Eng guys don't. 2 Sci Sci Ody would be better...
In the end though, I know it's a waste of time to discuss it - but I'm still waiting on the CD for Flying High - so I'm bored. I know it's a waste because what I suggest isn't going to make many players happy. They don't want Eng to be Defensive/Offensive Support - they want their Eng to be damage superstars that are rocking everybody's world while sitting in a Cruiser tanking all the damage in the world. The Sci won't like it because it means nerfing Sci - they wouldn't be the support superstars they are. Tac probably won't even like it because if it means potentially splitting Eng/Sci, they're losing SNBs. Some Tac won't care, because they don't need 3x Bill Nye's breaking out a trunk full o' dirty tricks, lol.
Oh well, CD's done...so off I go to fly around Risa. 51 more courses to do of the 675 I had to do for my guys...meh.
Hi rmy,
I'm not sure what you're saying here.
125 is the current weapon power cap for damage increase, there is some over-capping effect that may or may not be WAI that curbs drain (but does not continue to increase the direct damage bonus).
Hey drunk,
Since I can run 125 Weapons / 130 shields currently on a Tac captain - I think a smartly played Eng/Healer would be able to at least hit similar numbers with Shieilds/Aux.
Remember, the new elite cores allow for even more power, as well as the new Eng trait.
You're saying "that's all" they can get, but +30% flat damage is huge.:P
That depends on how we use it.
Flat damage bonuses aren't just "pressure" or "DPS" increases, they are also spike boosters.
140 or 150 weapons cap, is near permanent APA levels of power.
Stack that with EPTW 1~3, APO 3, Decloak Ambush.
Suddenly you are spiking people to death better than a Tac, more frequently and with all of your mitigation powers available.
Yes, but you're still thinking beams.
There is no reason for Engineers with a damage boost like this to run out and hop into a beam boat.
I'd be putting one into a Warbird with DHCs and a DBB faster than you can say "double tap". :P
Or just looking at my JHHEC, and ignoring warbirds for the moment.
I could, comfortably, run 146 power with just EPTW 1 before Plasmonic Leech kicks in. That's with only 3 ranks in weapon performance.
Plas leech with a moderate spec in flow caps would bring that to 162.
So before we even add the Eng +power trait, or go to a higher rank of EPTW - I'm already at a 22 points of weapon power over your suggestion of 140, or 150 with a warp core.
I'm very confident that most of us could design an Eng that could run both 150 weapons power, and 130 shields power all of the time while still being north of 75 Engines for a 3x subsystem AMP bonus.
That's just too much raw damage increase with no reason for it, and with no corresponding loss of Eng mitigation.
This dev team is, imo, unlikely to ever nerf Eng mitigation powers in order to give them more offense - and honestly speaking it's not needed. There is already a class designed to be a damage dealer.
No, that part is not your fault.
Well we might be in luck, and you might still agree with me! :P
If you go back, and take a second look, I believe I stated that Sci was designed as "support".
That doesn't necessarily translate to healer.
After reading your post, and my own posts because I've called them "tanks" for the sake of using a common term as well - honestly I don't think they are even "tanks".
They are mitigation specialists, for whatever reasons the Devs saw fit to make them such a thing.
If they were tanks, they would have at least had some kind of threat generation mechanics built into the class - but they don't.
On top of this none of the threat increasing skills, items or powers are even under engineering thematically nor mechanically.
+Th Sci consoles and Deflectors.
None for Eng consoles.
+Threat Control Skill under Tactical tree.
+Threat DOFF linked to Attack Pattern Delta - a min Lt level Tactical power.
It's kind of funny thinking about it...yeah, I normally use the "Tank" part just in regarding to tanking damage - the mitigation specialist as you said...without clarifying that I'm talking about the tanking part, it does come across wrong.
Technically, the Tac would be the best actual Tank. As you said, the +Th and Starship Threat are available to everybody - but the Tac will do the most damage and thus actually have the highest threat. Beyond that, with the Crippling Fire trait - reducing accuracy could lead to more misses and less need for any mitigation/self-healing the Eng provides (healing otherwise being covered by an actual healer).
Kind of paints a more bleak picture of the Eng.
Might want to say that they're good for solo players, but even there - with the level of gearing in the game for the content, both Tac and Sci surpass them even there...meh/lol.
Tac - Damage
Sci - Support
Eng - ???
I was saying take DDIS's idea about raising the power cap for engineers and make it a buff for EPS Power Transfer. Then engineers wouldn't get an always-on crazy power boost like you said, but they would get a noticeable boost.
Since EPS can be cast on a team mate, it would be a nice buff for an engineer in team play.
just an idea
I understand where ddis is coming from with the power cap boost for Engineers, but let's break it down if we limited it to just EPS.
EPS is 30s uptime with 120s CD.
150 Weapons cap = APA level damage boost (i.e. spike)
While Tac would still have a better uptime on APA, Eng would have the same level of spike, on perfect synch with SNB cycles and would still be Engineers with all of their resilience.
I just don't think Engineers can get a damage boost without losing some of their mitigation.
Um, let me know if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly (and if the wiki isn't wrong) APA gives up to:
+60% damage (over base damage)
+5% crit chance
+50% crit severity
+120% turn rate
Boosting the power level cap from 125 to 150 (that is, +25 power points) would only increase the potential strength of weapons by 50%, without giving either the crit chance or crit severity bonuses. Additionally, the +25 power cap to engines would give a speed and turn bonus, but not nearly close to the +120% of APA. Plus, the engineer actually has to be able to fill these power caps; while it's true that tying these higher power caps to EPS Power Transfer would definitely make it easier to fill them, it's not a guaranteed boost like APA is.
Not really trying to push one way or the other, but it seems like you're exaggerating the effects that the higher power caps would have in terms of damage. It offers the Engineer a bit of added flexibility in both offense and defense, and if it's tied to EPS Power Transfer it may become a valuable skill in team play. On top of that, it's also thematically appropriate; nothing satisfies the RPer in me like being able to say "I'M GIVING HER ALL SHE'S GOT", and having that actually be more than what other captains can do.
(Plus, and I think you'll agree, EPS Power Transfer and Nadion Inversion are probably the two biggest duds of the engineer's arsenal. They need some kind of improvement, whatever that improvement might entail. :P)
Sci has 3 heals and Eng have 5. All 3 Sci are tier 3 at Lt. Com while Eng have 3 at Commander.
The roles right now in game are
Tac ? dps
Sci ? Offensive support
Eng ? defensive SUPPORT (not just defensive)
With my Eng/Sci Oddy I can be healing 3 people at a time with very strong heals.
Me - MW, RSF, EPtS II
Other 1 - AtSIF III and ES II
Other 2 ? TSS III and HE II
Plus I still have TT or ET and PH I ready and AtSIF III, HE I, and TSS II will be ready in 15 sec.
I can keep my Shield and Aux power max out, plus my skill bonuses for shield and hull healing are 250ish to 200ish.(max around 450ish for shield and 270ish for hull I will get there someday just need the EC
My smallest hull heal is about 8k and the smallest shield heal over 20k (over the full time of the power).
Large hull heal over 22k plus over 30 resistance
Part of the problem isn?t that Eng are weak at their job it?s that other classes have gotten too good at staying alive with their limited Boff powers. If you don?t die often why would you need a healer?
The other part is a healer is useless in PvE.
My healer has no fear of good Tac/Escort captain or a few average captains but I know I will never ever kill them that?s why I keep the the Tac/Escort captain on my team alive, it?s their job to kill.
Also Nadion Inversion is dumb something to boost heals would be better.
The Sci/Sci Ody would give up the MW and RSF. They would pick up Sensor Scan, Subnucleonic Beam, Scattering Field, Photonic Fleet, and Science Fleet. Four of those five can reduce the need for healing. Heck, even Sensor Scan in detecting cloaked enemies would allow for preemptive strikes which in turn would reduce the need for healing.
Sensor Scan, Subnucleonic Beam, and Photonic Fleet would also aid in the team taking out members of the other team.
That Sci/Sci Ody could actually SNB your RSF/EPtS2. They can SNB off the damage resistance buff Other 1's getting from the AtS3. They can SNB off the TSS3/HE2 that Other 2's getting.
As an Eng, you can only watch as the Sci is able to neutralize what you're trying to do.
Heck, the Tac/Sci Ody would likewise give up MW, RSF...but would bring Tac Fleet, Tac Initiative, and even FoMM for TT gaps to the team. Add in some random crits with Crippling Fire that can lead to reduced damage from increased misses.
Add in the crosshealing that will be taking place - well, MW/RSF just end up not being missed...kind of like the Eng.
edit: Don't get me wrong, in the chaotic - silent - unfocused world of PUGland, an Eng/Cruiser healer can really help. When you've got everybody shooting at random targets, what the Sci brings wouldn't matter as much. But then again, the Eng can shine in so many ways in that area of PvP...the more coordination that's introduced, though - the more the Eng loses value.
True I didn?t think of it like that.
What if?
1.Eng had the option of a trait that boosted all heals 20% or something.
2.MW and EPS worked on everyone on the team (smaller amount)
3.Nadion Inversion was replaced by a power that increased the bleed thru on enemy shields.
MW needs to be castable on others and come with a build in 'cleanse ALL'. If subnuke can clear all buffs I see no logical reason MW shouldn't clear all debuffs.
EPS Transfer needs to increase max power levels by 5 to 10 for all subsystems while active.
Nadion Inversion can remain nitch and borderline useless as not all abilities need to be amazing.
Result? Engs do become the best healers and also gain a wee bit of offensive teeth OR atleast a decent buff (EPS) for the team's attacker.
I'm not really buying this tbh.
It's not that there aren't potential effective builds out there for teams, it's people don't want to be or be seen as over the top. Some of the best debuffs out there aren't dependent on a Sci Captain ability, but instead pets/consoles/boff+doffs. An Eng can survive longer allowing for more debuff/cc spam.
How much would SNB be missed w/5 carriers spamming FaW, SNB doffs, placate proc, SS w/doffs, elite pets, tb&tholian mines AMS etc? Not many would stay to even fight such a team.
Engineers may not have the best debuffs or burst damage, but they do have the ability to survive to use more of the communal ones over time. If they choose builds which happen to make the most of whats out there.
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APA is +50%, not +60%.
The rest is accurate.
Ok, now you with the "only"! :P
+50% flat damage bonus is humongous.
This isn't like a Tac console, this is not modifying the base.
+5% crit? Romulans are swimming in crit. +5% is more, it's better than "not 5%" but you are underestimating the best part of APA.
The real raw power of APA has always come from the +50% flat damage boost. It's huge.
It adds so much extra damage that it leads to Tacs leading in "sustained" DPS parsings simply due to the 30s spikes increasing the overall.
The Crit and CrtD is icing on the cake.
It's why APO 3 (at half the bonus) has been used as a part of sub-alpha strikes.
It's why +25% flat damage decloaking Romulan Ambush hits so hard, and has increased potential spike so much.
And the suggestions is that an Eng should have access to this much Raw DMG increase on all the time? Seriously, this can never be allowed to happen.
Even having it on at 1/4th uptime (EPS) vs. Tac 1/3rd uptime (APA) makes no sense.
If you think I'm exaggerating the effects of higher power caps, play a few matches but don't set any single power above 100.
Try it on a Tac/Escort, 100 weapons power.
Let me know how it goes.;)
The main point to take away is that there is literally no reason for Engineers to have a way to directly, through career powers, increase their damage.
Tac's have no single way through career powers to increase their survivability.
You want to do a mini-alpha in an Eng? It's there, it already exists.
(Warbird Decloaking Ambush +25%) + (APO 3 +25%) + (EPTW 3 +16%) w/ +15% crit chance.
Don't think this is possible? Tacs can already, and should be, doing this between their APA cycles.
You want to play the damage dealer? Play the damage dealer or work with what's available to you thanks to power creep.
That's not what's being asked for, people want all their mitigation tools with more raw damage increase.
I sympathize with people not wanting to re-roll their characters, but I've basically shelved all of my Fed/KDF Tacs, all of their fleet gear, all of their rep, all of their rep gear, all of their lockbox ships (JHAS, JHEC, Orb Weaver, DKora, etc) in favor a new Romulan because that's where the game has brought us.
Power creep, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, actually has boosted the damage capabilities of Eng and Sci, the way that is has also increased everyone's survivability.
It is, unfortunately, the nature of the STO beast.
to over cap to the same extent most do at the 125 cap, you would need about 180 for beams and 160 for dhc ships, and you can still only set it to 100. as a result, nadion and EPS would tottaly not suck anymore with this change. since there is no core that raises weapons power, 140 would be the limit, and so the top potential bonus would be 30%. i cant help but think of all those times APA, APO3, and tac fleet were stacked and how easily i tanked, and other have tanked me with damage stacked that high without even breaching shields. aside from someone useing a double tap, you just need EPtS, TSS and TT ready with good reaction time. so just potentially having a shot or 2 fired at 30% more damage, but most shots still fired in a more normal 125 range, still does not strike me as any sort of i win button. useing nadion and EPS together though will create pretty hot damage, but still comfortably lower damage then a tac stacking his buffs.
its not so much about an eng being able to deal more damage, its about having a reason to exist. being an energy wizard jack of all trades that uses raw power to approach what the other 2 captain types can do. tacs will still have the highest spike, scis will have the best debuffs, but eng will have stronger damage over time, a bit stronger shields, faster engines, and hotter aux abilities. thats something on the level of sci and tac captains.
Well, my testing on overcapping showed the benefits to DHCs to be insignificant. It's not really a factor with that.
Yeah, but there is no reason for the mitigation specialist to have this.
This is probably where we differ. I don't see them as strictly power wizards, I see them as mitigation specialists (with the power management being a sub-specialty).
I think they really exist at this point for players that want or need the most mitigation they can get.
Is that a useful thing for most of us? No, not really.
Have you considered that same 5x man team as Tac, as Sci, as a mix of Tac/Sci?
DHCs tend to lose any benefit by 135 - the regain of power because of the cycles, even for a 4x DHC/3x Turret boat is usually going to be covered by 135. Yeah, if you're working in a DBB and BOs, you're going to want to cover that in some fashion.
Arrays on the other hand, lol - 180+ would be a good place to start depending on how many you were running. Even with 4x Arrays (+Experimental) and a KCB (has a 4/5 cycle) - there's still loss at 176 because of how the drain mechanic malfunctions. OWA procs, golden - DEM/Marion, fine - Nadion, helps...
Yes, the Tacs would lack the Tac boff stations to take advantage of their spike potential. They would like the ability to w/stand a coordinated ff attack in the slower carriers which lack the movement/boff layout so speed/pilot tanking.
Scis would be better than Tacs w/overlapping resist boosts, but still lack the self repair etc that Eng pilots have. They lack the mitigation drain boosts to maintain higher weapons power to take advantage of things like Dem and Tet glider. The lack of SNBs would made up by the shear numbers of 40 BAs w/SNB doffs. Pets/consoles/Sci Buffs and Doffs would be more than enough CC/Debuffs.
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C&H Fed banter
anyone who has ground out rep, and has stf or fleet equipment is a mitigation specialist. being an eng on top of that is like your ship being a bike with training wheels, wile the other captains are ether a motorcycle or hybrid car.
the value of the self heals are negligible. the eng's ability to offensively effect anyone is negligible, the 2 power skill's effect is negligible, his ability to heal other ship only matches what a sci, or even a tac captain in a heal boat can do since every team heal is a station power. they are negligibility specialist.
some mitigation specialist, hes no better at surviving spike applied too quickly to react to then a tac or sci is. want to know what a REAL mitigation specialist would be able to do? have a built in way to not die when hit with a '1 shot'. a 3 second grace period were their ship is invincible at the point of death, and you can react for a few seconds to save yourself from the brink. but that would be a suck feature to have to deal with in game. id much rather have what i already suggested, mister above average that lacks the ability to truly spike hard enough, or force multiply with debuffs.
how about this, for any power level over 125 to the 140(150 with core) level, the bonus per point of power would be cut in half from 2% to 1%. then an eng would just have a maximum of 15% more, instead of 30% more energy damage.
I wasn't talking about 5x Tac/Sci in that group vs. a normal group. I was talking about the 5x Tac/Sci vs. the 5x Eng.
vs. 3x BO, if the Eng pops MW right after the first hits - it will trigger right before the third hits; allowing them to survive that which would kill the Tac or Sci. With GUF, they'd also be able to pop MW again at that point. Course, if they don't pop it right after the first, lol - it will trigger after they're already dead. Hit the respawn, and it will be on CD - having triggered but never having healed. Most things have a 0.5s activation, MW sports a 1.0s activation.
Yes, and again there's aren't the boff stations for Tac to truly take advantage of their spike. They'd be the least useful in that kind of support carrier build.
Eng captains have the most anti-debuff abilites, granted they're self only captain powers.
I'd still take the 5 engineers.
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"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
You can add 10% crit to a Rom Eng or Rom Sci and you can stack up to +63% flat damage boost with APO 3 + Ambush + EPTW 1 on a Rom Eng or Rom Sci, but we don't hear much conversation about that.
You're talking about gear and equipment, which also exists to increase offense for anyone using it.
I'm talking about class powers and class design.
Mitigation is what they are designed for, and whether or not that makes sense to us or is useful or not to us is not a reason to give them a huge damage boost.
We need to find something that boosts Eng, but there is no reason for it to be damage.
Obviously Sci and Tac have better synnergy, but the damage stacking available that I've mentioned above is far from negligible.
You can use that right now to kill people while APA is down.
Which means you can use it if you don't even have APA at all.
I understand the frustration behind Engineers beingwhere they are bud, I'm not trying to argue that they are fine by any stretch or that their design makes sense in the current game.
But Cryptic is never going to nerf current Eng powers, and the only way they can realistically increase Eng damage output is by nerfing mitigation.
On top of that, why do we need that?
We have a damage class, one that half of the career powers are nearly as meaningless as some of the Engineers.
What does having a more survivable slightly lesser damage dealer bring to the table to add value to game play?
If Engineers are ever to have a place, it needs to be unique.
I'm an engineer myself. So I have MW and a now fair chance of seeing it almost immediately available again. Cute and not to be dismissed.
But, as for DPS, can't out-DPS a Tact really. I can make, say, a fine A2B Fleet Excelsior, and FAW my way to 1st place in SB24.... but so can a Tact Captain -- and he will have a great many innate dmg-boosters to boot. And with both of us having fit the Plasmonic Leech, my Nadion Inversion just isn't really giving me an edge. There will be specific moments that I might briefly out-BO him, power-drain wise, with a properly timed NI, but overall he's gonna do much more DPS.
DPS is tricky to measure, though. Like I'm currently flying a >200 Flow Caps Vesta, with Tachyon beams, Energy Siphon, Tractor Beams, and doff to drain shields along with the latter. That build helps my own DPS, but also that of the entire team, as it makes it easier for everyone to kill 'my' target.
Then there's my Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer: one of my best ships. But, ultimately, only because I finally got some Tact abilities (most notably, cloak + triple, stacking, extra Ambush decloak dmg).
It's a bit sad, though, if you think about it, that the most successful way for me to 'be' is either go Science or pseudo-Tactical.
SNB DOFF spam...you'd have to look at abilities that can't be stripped.
SS DOFF spam...you'd have to consider abilities that can't be used because of CD.
It's like you're letting the Eng keep everything they've got, while removing anything the Tac/Sci have got.
I still think Tac is a distraction for Eng...that the issue is with Sci. It's the Sci that's doing what the Eng should be doing as well as what the Sci should be doing.
But it makes sense, in a twisted fashion - because Sci is a Cryptic fabrication. The easiest way to see where Sci has trod over Eng is to look at the skill tree.
Tactical Systems
Engineering Systems
Science and Operation Systems
3x dhc's, 1x dc, 2x turrets, KCB. Plasma
3x plasma inf, tac readiness console, 2x embassy plasma shield emitter, zero point, Borg, plasmonic.
Maco set. W>S warp core, elite.
Commander tac, APB3, APO2, crf1, tt1
Lt. Com. Eng., lt. Eng, ens. eng., DEM2, a2b x2, EptS, EptW, et1
Lt sci., HE1, TSS2
3x purple tech doffs, 1 Marion
Dem works on base weapon damage, will always work better with tac captains n escorts than anything else.
This is basically exactly what I said a few pages ago. People seem to think that we are asking to do all the damage in the world. This is simply not what is being asked.
What we are asking is VIABILITY in a team environment. If some of our abilities were modified to effect another or a group in some manner, we would be MUCH more useful in a premade team.
I don't care if I out-damage an escort or whatnot.. but our abilities should make us desirable in a group.
Furthermore, escorts have become way too tanky and while people here are saying we should not do damage, blah blah blah... how about you should not be able to tank down as much as you do.
Complaining about us dabbling into the realm of the damage dealer when the damage dealer is 90% of the way to pure tank... that seems hypocritical. You have faster turning, the ability to escape and massive burst. You should not have the ability to make a sandwich while taking hits as well.
One or the other..not both. So, before you scream at the engineer/cruiser pilot, perhaps you should realize that what you are complaining could happen has already happened .. but just reversed in the escort field.