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DHC in PvP
iskandus
Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
DHC is the most OP weapon ever. They can put out insane dps number that just kills PvP gameplay. Many can kill a player with their DHC within 2-3 seconds, far faster than any other weapons in STO.
By nerfing DHCs, more PvEers will try out PvP and save this declining community.
Will you ask Cryptic to nerf DHC and what would be your proposed nerf(s)?
By nerfing DHCs, more PvEers will try out PvP and save this declining community.
Will you ask Cryptic to nerf DHC and what would be your proposed nerf(s)?
Post edited by iskandus on
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Just no.
DHCs are not OP, Dual Cannons and DHCs have identical DPS, the only different is that DHCs hit harder and slower.
Here's an idea: use DHCs in PvP with no buffs, no tac team and no CRF or CSV. Then try it with those things. then try it with a decent tac build (which I and other PBC Coaches would be happy to offer) and notice the difference in all of them.
They do not need nerfing in any way. They are fine as-is.
Comments like these are one of the reasons PvP Boot Camp was invented. We share our knowledge with players that want to break into PvP without being daunted by veteran players. We do this for free. In addition you get an shiny title and a free respec token.
Rather than posting a new thread asking the devs to hit everything with a nerfhammer. Place your post in the thread that signs you up for PvP Boot Camp so you can learn builds, spec better and make friends.
PvP Boot Camp Coach
Vice Admiral of Forum Administration
or, nerf DHCs. but also remove the distribute from TT. ether change would have nearly the same effect
Boot camp coach, but really you should know that DHC does infact hit harder then DC its been proven over and over, dps value on the tooltips are inaccurate.
They are generally better weapons.
But what I said was true as well, unbuffed, they hit for the same DPS but as I said, DHCs are generally better.
PvP Boot Camp Coach
Vice Admiral of Forum Administration
They really shine when you start stacking APA, APO, CRF, TacFleet, etc etc.
R.I.P
The problem with buffing beams is that we are going to see te return of beam escorts, and we all know we don't want that. Or even worst, the return of the FAW premades! 5 crusier with extended shields spamming FAW, most boring thing ever (and now powered by aux2bat builds)
We really wan't that back?
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
But, general weapon damage over time designed to outpace regen/repair cycles isn't (this actually includes some DHC builds that used to be viable in this manner). Some Dem ETPW FAW Aux2batt builds still do ok for this, but the options are much fewer than they used to be.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
beam escorts were only 'good' before all the power creep. they dont do more damage with beams then a 2 AtB fleet excelsior can with beams now. it would not buff escorts, DHCs would still be a better choice for them.
as i said, lets go back to the FAW crusiers now powered by aux2bat.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
DHCs vs. Beam Array
The DHCs will always do 1.74:1 the DPV of the Beam Array.
The DHCs will always do 1.45:1 the DPS of the Beam Array.
The following numbers are not "real" numbers - they're just an example of the issue this causes.
A) If the Array does 100 damage, the DHCs do 174 damage. +74 damage.
C) If the Array does 1000 damage, the DHCs do 1740 damage. +740 damage.
D) If the Array does 2000 damage, the DHCs do 3480 damage. +1480 damage.
E) If the Array does 5000 damage, the DHCs do 8700 damage. +3700 damage.
Take a target with 50,000 hull.
A) The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~69.1% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take 500 shots and ~624 seconds.
The DHCs will take ~288 shots and ~431 seconds.
D) The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~71% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take 25 shots and ~31 seconds.
The DHCs will take 15 shots and ~22 seconds.
Have to keep in mind that the Array has a 4/5 cycle and the DHCs have a 2/3 cycle. In a 15 second period, the Array will have fired 12 times to the 10 times of the DHCs.
Okay, but that target's going to have some resistance. Let's give it 35%.
D) The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~64.6% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~39 shots and ~48 seconds.
The DHCs will take ~21 shots and ~31 seconds.
With adding resist, the speed at which the DHCs 0 hull compared to the Array increases. It took the DHCs ~9 seconds longer than it did without the resists. It took the Array ~17s longer than it did without the resists.
But hey, it's not just a target sitting there with hull and resists. Let's add in a 1000 heal every 15s from a fake AtS-like ability.
D) The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~63.3% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~40 shots and ~49 seconds.
The DHCs will take ~21 shots and ~31 seconds.
That's a minor increase, eh? Let's make the heal 2000 every 15s.
D) The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~61.5% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~42 shots and ~52 seconds.
The DHCs will take ~22 shots and ~32 seconds.
So what is this showing us?
Against a target with no resists and no healing, the benefit the DHCs have over the Array decreases as more damage is done. The difference between how long it takes for them to 0 the hull decreases.
Against a target with resists and healing, the benefit the DHCs have over the Array increases. The difference between how long it takes for them to 0 the hull increases.
TLDR#1: It's the resists/healing in the game causing weapons other than DHCs the issues they are having in comparison. The higher the resists and the more healing done, the better the DHCs are.
One of the suggestions that has been made is to change the firing cycle of other weapons to match the 2/3 of the DHCs. Sticking with our DHCs vs. Beam Array, let's look at what that would mean.
First, let's fine our new damage for the Array. I'll stay with example D) from above - the 2000 DPV Array. A 2000 DPV Array is a 1600 DPS Array. Converting this from a 4/5 to a 2/3 cycle would result in it being a 2400 DPV Array (still a 1600 DPS Array).
So let's go through our examples again.
50,000 hull with no resists and no healing.
The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~71% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~21 shots and ~31 seconds.
The DHCs will still take 15 shots and ~22 seconds.
Again, that's without changing the DPS of the Array - just the firing cycle. The DHCs still take the target out in ~71% of the time of the Array as they did when when the Array had a 4/5 cycle.
50,000 hull with the 35% resists but no healing.
The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~63.3% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~33 shots and ~49 seconds.
The DHCs will still take ~21 shots and ~31 seconds.
Unexpected, eh? This actually worked more in favor of the DHCs than the Array. Fewer shots but actually taking longer? Remember, 4/5 is 12 shots in 15s and 2/3 is 10 shots in 15s. A 2/3 firing cycle would make things worse.
50,000 hull with the 35% resists and the 2000 heal every 15s.
The DHCs will 0 hull it in ~61.5% of the time of the Array.
The Array will take ~35 shots and ~52 seconds.
The DHCs will still take ~22 shots and ~32 seconds.
Wait, so changing to a 2/3 cycle while keeping the DPS the same didn't fix anything?
TLDR#2: A 2/3 cycle won't fix the issue. It's the resists/healing in the game causing weapons other than DHCs the issues they are having in comparison. The higher the resists and the more healing done, the better the DHCs are.
But VD, man...this is PvP - TRIBBLE DPS...what about the spike?
Okay, so in changing the DPV of the Array for the 2/3 cycle - we also changed the Ratio. It's no longer 1.74:1 for the DHCs over the Array. Yeah, it's only 1.6. /cough The DHCs are still going to do 60% more damage than the Array.
That's before taking into account the innate CrtD of the DHCs as well. So let's do a basic critical for each - just one shot - not taking into account any other buffs/skills/gears/etc (so just +50% damage for the Array and +60% damage for the DHCs).
Array Crit! 3600 damage!
DHCs Crit! 6144 damage!
The DHCs did around 71% more damage than the Array.
Still, what about a single crit 4/5 Array vs. single crit 2/3 Array?
4/5 Crit! 3000 damage!
2/3 Crit! 3600 damage!
Er...+20% damage.
TLDR#3: The base damage of the DHCs give it an edge. A 2/3 cycle won't fix the issue. It's the resists/healing in the game causing weapons other than DHCs the issues they are having in comparison. The higher the resists and the more healing done, the better the DHCs are.
So why do DHCs have the base damage they do? They have the damage they do because of their limited firing arc. But is that arc as difficult to maintain as it was?
I'd say that's subjective. I'd say that it was the same for Escort vs. Escort but easier for Escort vs. Cruiser. Face it, Escorts got a better boost.
But all in all, for the most part that hasn't changed...so nothing will change.
TLDR#4: There's a reason so many new ships are Tac heavy and can use DHCs. Shouldn't we be renting floaters and working toward our...oh yeah...Risian Corvettes? The only thing that's going to change is that we'll either walk away from the game or we'll end up flying boats that can use DHCs. These threads accomplish nothing...
It really isn't that complicated at all. It's very simple. Look at the difference between the ships that are likely to be mounting DHC and ships that are likely to be mounting Beams.
That's essentially it.
This has been beaten over and over. Wow Crit D matters? Who knew?
Anyway. It is the differences between these ship types and the underlying mechanics and mitigation strategies implemented by the devs that cause this. And we know how and why that happened.
This isn't news. But I see the Crit D is catching on, so perhaps there's hope for general enlightenment.
this + that lovely quote
Some folks need examples. Somebody saying something can just strike them as opinion otherwise.
Firing arc isn't so much the issue as that escorts can move in to close range and reduce their speed to keep at 3km or less to maximize the DHC damage without having to defense tank. It used to be that if escorts didn't stay at full throttle they would get vaporized.
It's simply too easy to drop down to 1/4 throttle and ride someone's tail without having to run away after only one or two DHC volleys.
*edit* Just did a quick test. My fleet patrol escort is nothing special and has average level gear. I got to 92.3% defense with EPTE1 and APO1 at 1/4 throttle. Without evasive.
was long but I did read
as I understand it the drain from 6+ beam arrays is very power intensive by the end of the cycle your doing 50% less damage?
so would a 2/3 cycle vs 4/5 cycle help with the power drain, thus increasing damage?
also how about if they created a new boff ability "Beam Barrage"......(use CRF +30-50% single target boost) or essentially CRF for beam arrays but move the requirement so you could slot them at ensign level vs Lt for cannon skills?
or the often quoted "Heavy Beam Array"
if said array had an built-in 10-20% crit severity with a slight damage boost and DHCs 2/3 cycle would that help?
I really suck at math or I might try to run some numbers
Don't forget that Tacs can also throw on Crippling Strikes and the T4 Romulan passive for added defense
It's true that I didn't account for drain. That's a common oversight for me on beam discussions. I'm usually so overcapped on Weapon Power that I don't notice it.
A 2/3 cycle would definitely help in that regard though - the energy would return sooner. Every 3s instead of every 5s. That in turn could allow folks to overcap less - put more points elsewhere and they could become more effective overall.
Even though the rough math there may not have looked like it, I actually do support the 2/3 cycle that Drunk's mentioned a few times here and there.
Have to keep in mind that PvP is generally a team thing as well, so although for that "1v1" thing going against a target dummy might not have looked that great - it would help out folks using beams during coordinated spike damage.
The Sci drops SNB on a target...that small gap is there - I'd rather have the beam folks at 2/3 than 4/5 while adding their damage to the 2/3 guys. It would keep their DPS the same but provide around +20% boost to DPV. Course, missing once would be a loss of 50% rather than 25%.
Still, I'd go with what prax said...it's easier for DHC folks to sit on a target.
What's your speed at 1/4 with EPtE1?
Escort +10%, Elusive +10%, 9 Maneuvers +15%, Escort +10%, 24+ Impulse +45%...takes folks to the standard +80% unbuffed in an Escort. I run Aegis Engines for an additional +5%. Add in some Rom BOFFs...etc, etc, etc..
Speed is 18.99 at 1/4 with EPTE1 and nothing else. 30 base engine power setting.
Forgot to mention I have the elusive trait and 6 in maneuvers. Borg set and no Rom boffs.
Does escort really have a 10% inherent defense bonus?
As long as the Escort is moving, it has +10%. Doesn't get it if sitting still. The JHEC doesn't get the +10% (HEC does). Warbirds don't get the +10%.
The Risian Corvette's got a +15% based on speed Defense bonus.
I can see how that would've been a good idea in the past but now it's outdated overkill
I wouldn't be surprised if they were to make it speed variable like they did EM and with the Corvette. Then again, I guess I would be - they can't touch them - they want to, lol - but they know who butters their bread.
I'd ask Cryptic to nerf terrible people who are bad at the game before I asked for anything else.
I'm guessing that you signed up for one PvP match for the dilithium and some nasty escort pilot neglected to read the part of your biography where you say you're the <Federation/KDF's> top captain who has never been defeated and blew up your failboat, failing to respect your Mary Sue's backstory while ruining your immersion, leading you to ragequit and then whine about it here?
I'm right, aren't I?
Learn to play. If you can't figure it out yourself, sign up for the PvP bootcamp: they will tell you everything you need to know to graduate from the rank of 'terrible' to 'merely bad'.
He knows how to play, he is just mad about the discussion here going on in this thread
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=771691 because most people agree his new OP toy nukara web mines should be nerfed and said there he would start a nerf DHC thread in response. I don't think he is serious, just trying to create a diversion in a vain attempt to save his mines.
the dude does more research than anyone i see on the forums....
and it holds...
ggs virus. ggs.
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-