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Are warbirds squishy?
burstdragon323
Member Posts: 853 Arc User
By squishy, I mean take more damage. It seems that in many situations, my warbirds are taking more damage than my FED or KDF ships.
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What measure are you using? Combatlog parsers, or do you just feel you are dying faster?
Data: (from in game defense tab while in system space over DS9, no buffs currently running, no DOff buffs running, neither captain has any space traits that would affect hull resist... for that matter I don't think any actually exist)
Starfleet Alien Tactical Captain
Ship: Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit
Relevant Skills: 7 points in hull armor and hull plating
Relevant Equipment: 2x Neutronium Alloy mk XI (blue), 1x Monotanium Alloy mk XI (blue)
Kinetic Resist: 44%
Energy Resist: 34%
About what you'd expect, decent, good enough for STFs.
Romulan Republic Reman Tactical Captain
Ship: Ha'feh Assault Warbird
Relevant Skills: 7 points in hull armor and hull plating
Relevant Equipment: 2x Neutronium Alloy mk XI (blue), 1x Monotanium Alloy mk XI (blue)
Kinetic Resist: 34%
Energy Resist: 24%
Wait... what?
There is a significant difference in hull resists between the two, even with identical skills and equipment. I checked using other ships (a KDF battlecruiser, fed cruiser, fed sci ship, and KDF raptor, also the Chel'gret), and I had similar results. So it would seem that Romulan ships are a little less sturdy than their Fed and KDF counterparts.
Explains why my fleet mogai (that just got hit with a hp reduction) feels like it got hit a little too hard.
Need to get that rep up to get more power going!
The only other thing which affects resist, IIRC, is Threat Control, which can't be the reason for this much difference.
With this to consider, the meta is much closer to SFC than I would've thought. (Rommies were squishier in those games to make up for cloak)
but yeah, rom ships are squishy, and they are absolutely not OP.
Formula:
Resistance = 1 - (1 / (1 + Total Resist Bonus)
Using my Fleet Mogai
My Base spec:
Threat Control 6 (7.3 resist bonus vs. ALL)
Hull Plating 6 (10.7 resist bonus vs. ENERGY)
Calculated Score:
6.8% vs. Kinetic
15.25% vs. Energy
Actual Score (defense tab listing)
9.4% vs. Kinetic
17.3% vs. Energy
*discrepancy due to accolades, which I am too lazy to worry about atm.
Adding 3 x MK XI VR Monotaniums (+37.5 kinetic resist bonus each)
Calculated Score:
54.5% vs. Kinetic
Actual Score:
52.3% vs. Kinetic
Adding 1 x MK XI Rare Neutronium (+17.5 ALL resist bonus)
Calculated Score:
26.74% vs. Energy
Actual Score:
26.2% vs. Energy
So there are some discrepancies there, it's very likely accolades or due to me rushing this, or due to me just making an error.
However they are close enough that I'm not seeing the level of discrepancy being spoken of in that thread.
I think most people's feeling of their warbird feeling "weaker" derives from them not having all of their rep passives, and possibly none of their rep gear like 2 piece borg or MACO shield, etc.
EDIT:
Something occurred to me during my cappuccino.
The Fleet Mogai was recently getting some extremely wonky numbers for Structural Integrity and Starship Impulse Thrusters skills.
It's possible this is the case with some of the Fleet or Standard Warbirds I don't own and haven't noticed.
For the record, I have no points in TC, hence why it wasn't one of the relevant skills I listed.
Well they did state in the Dev Blogs that introduced the Romulan Warbirds that they were designed for a high risk high reward playstyle. But even so, reducing their resists by 10% all around? I don't think that was intended. Probably just another of the plethora of bugs that came around come season 8.
But if that is WAI, then I think they should at least have warned us first, and I don't think you can call a vague comment like that a warning.
Except shield power has no sway over hull resist. Which is the only thing I was pointing out. The discrepancy in hull resists between the Romulan and Non-Romulan ships.
The thing here is that I was comparing two practically identical setups (yes, I will admit that my fed tac does have more accolades, but I don't see 2% affecting the results as greatly as they have), and it wasn't adding up/equivalent like it should have been. Also my Ha'feh is not the fleet version (too lazy to get the FSMs to go grab a fleet warbird at this point), it's the freebie version.
I realize it probably would have been better to compare two fleet ships to each other (the defiant was a fleet version, the ha'feh was just the freebie), but even so, with identical armor consoles and identical skills, those two ships SHOULD have the same resists, and yet there is a 10% difference. It's not game-breaking, just annoying.
Let's compare a fleet mogai (an escort / destroyer) to my fleet k'tinga (a cruiser) :
-The mogai has more hull (+1650 base)
-Shield mods are the same
-The mogai has +3 turn rate
-The mogai has +25 inertia
-The mogai has a battlecloak that gives +50% defense when you hit the key vs normal cloak
-The mogai has more speed
-The mogai has more flexibility (vs fixed boff stations)
-And we can add valdore console
Well, i compared 2 different classes of ships because the fleet raptors and the fleet scourge are obviously much more squishy and have less firepower than romulan ships (i'm not even counting battlecloak).
There is a reason why some people think romulan ships are OP... and i don't think the power loss is enough to justify superior base stats and battlecloak and singularity toys.
...
Except we aren't looking at THOSE stats. We are looking at hull resists. We are looking at the effect that skills and consoles have on a ship's hull resist, not the console count, actual hull points, shield mod, or anything you brought up..
I had a friend of mine grab his fleet mogai and put 4 mk XI blue neutroniums on there. That's +70 resist. Which on my fleet patrol escort translated to ~45%.
On his fleet mogai it only translated to ~35%.
What can we conclude? Romulan ships are squishier.
It is known that the fleet mogai is bugged with it's hull and shields and resists. You should try using a different ship.
That was fixed last patch, everything else seems to be working correctly at least now. I suppose more data wouldn't hurt, if more people with other ships could weigh in, we could see what is going on.
So if the plumber tells you the toilet is fixed but you still can't get it to stop flooding, you'll believe him? Or the electrician tells you he's fixed the wiring but your lights still won't turn on you'll still pay him?
I think you see what I'm saying here.
More like the plumber came by and fixed my plumbing, and my lights won't come on, and the neighbors are complaining of brown outs. Maybe it's not the plumbing causing the block wide electrical problems...
Someone earlier in the thread was complaining of the Mogai in particular felt squishier, and mine has higher kinetic resist than it should, so that's one data point at least. I didn't feel like pulling my Ha'Feh, my only other T5 Rom vessel out of storage and then have to re-do my tray once I switched back. More data would help track down the problem, weird metaphors won't.
The one that grants shield regen and temporary hull HP, its extremely effective when you're in a tight spot. Usually if my hull is low I'll hit that, turn on Hazard Emitters, evasive, and cloak to disengage. I do have one of the +25 Aux power while cloaked DOFFs equipped, which helps.
1x Blue Mk XI Neutronium and 1x Blue Mk XI Electroceramic
FED: Recon Science Vessel
Borg Sphere torpedoes: 6-7k with 200-300 plasma fires
Mk X MACO Set
RR: Ha'nom Guardian Warbird
Borg Sphere Torpedoes: 10-11k with 600-800 fires
Mk X MACO Set
So somewhere there is a problem with how warbirds react to damage.
56k HP gets melted like cheap cheese, even from simple Transphasic Torps whilst my shields are full.
I reskilled my captain to pile points into the SA2/VA resists skills and this has made a difference, but even my Fed Vesta with less than 30k hp soaks hits better, without these skills.
I see some people have mentioned design intentions like "high risk gameplay", but surely the d'deridex has 56k HP and the bulk of a small city because it is supposed to be able to stand toe-to-toe with the other "battleships" in the game?
As an aside... those people who think singularity powers are OP are overlooking some serious limitations:
1) The CD on singularity-restart after use severely reduces the usefulness of the skills. A couple of Boff skills replace the function of the singularity powers entirely. (Not even sure why the individual sing. powers have a CD, as it takes longer than this simply to restart to core...)
2) Singularity cores are feeble compared to the available buffs from Warp Cores:
a) We lose our S-core power bonus as soon as we trigger a sing. ability
b) I would eat my own liver to have the power synergy bonuses available to (blue+) warp-cores.
Just my tuppence
Capriel
on their own, true, however there's the T'varo (T1 version) special console, which lets you reactivate a spent singularity core instantly after firing a power (should you chose to use it right then.) meaning that while the powers are on cooldown you can once again build a decent charge by the time you can use the powers again.
Basically I was saying that just because they said they fixed something doesn't mean they did.
Read the post I put up above comparing the Ha'feh to the Fleet Defiant. You'll see your discrepancy there.
I don't see any hull resist difference.
Doing this with different captains is prone to error, and equipment just confuses the issue.
Clarification: no equipment except the same armor consoles.
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Fed/kdf captain data is also useful, in case a romulan only accolade is causing it. I'm sure i saw something resistance related when "There are 4 lights" flashed past...
Romulan warbirds are NOT designed to go toe-to-toe with other ships.
They are designed to appear out of no where, strike hard and fast and then fade off into obscurity. The primary "weapon" of the warbird IS the battle cloak.
The Romulan racial stats. The Romulan/Reman BO space stats. Warbirds in general. All have been designed with the "uncloak-fire everything-cloak" concept in mind.
For them to have the same resists, armor, etc., as Fed or KDF ships would make the warbirds a bit over powered, IMHO.
Yet no mention has been made of lessened damage resistance in any of the dev blogs. The battlecloak and singularity powers were supposedly balanced by the hefty -40 power penalty.
Aid in leading the Romulan Star Empire back to its former greatness.
Join the Romulan Praetorian Guard and teach those epohh loving hippies what it means to be a true Romulan!
Technically, -40 power = less shield resistance, shield regen, defense, and/or ability effectiveness(less healing and damage resistance gained)
There's also the matter of traits. Romulans give up Techie for Operative. Techie not only provides passive hull regen, but also improves abilities that heal hulls.