Still no replies from devs, I would think this would have gotten attention since the Scimitar is due out within the month, and I dont think anyone wil appreciate a Carrier that cant tank due to screwed up resists.
I'll look on my FED and KDF Roms to get some data on this, not before Monday though.
Just a btw: If what hereticknight and others report isn't merely a UI bug and is intended, I would understand it. Would be a good counter to the seeming power creep in this game.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
The following is just "Hull" info for my guys. I've included Defense (because Warbirds do not get the Escort's +10% Bonus Defense, so some folks are likely getting hit more than they may be used to getting hit). I included individual ability effects on the resistances - I did not do the various combined permutations.
The skills listed are: Starship Threat Control (STC), Starship Structural Integrity (SSI), Starship Hull Plating (SHP), Starship Armor Reinforcements (SAR).
I chose not to show the numbers for abilities that increase resistances since Aux can play a role in that. Besides, the complaint appeared to be more of a core issue, no?
So let's see what I've got, eh?
Chel Grett w/ Eng
STC 54, SSI 125, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 49,665
Kinetic: 24.6%
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 85.0%
JHEC w/ Eng
STC 54, SSI 117, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 50,740
Kinetic: 24.6%
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 75.0%
Okay, so how about the Romulan, eh? He's actually a Reman! But yeah, I've only got one on Holo. So what are his numbers in the three T5 ships he has? Let's look...
So for these ships, pretty much everybody is getting the same, eh?
STC 54, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut and they've got 24.6% and 27.0% going for them. The folks with SAR 0 are sporting Jem Shields taking them to 25.6% (it goes higher on a toon with SAR 54 as expected).
While one can't directly compare the Hegh'ta to the T'varo Retro or Fleet T'varo (one would be better served doing so with the B'rel Retro and Fleet B'rel), one can still do the math to see that the T'varo Retro and Fleet T'varo would actually come out ahead of the B'rel boats. The easier comparison is the Ha'feh and Patrol Escort, where the Ha'feh is the better boat.
But then it gets into that Base40 vs. Base50 power thing, and well - not only does it not work out to -10 power per subsystem because of skills/traits, when you consider how shield resistances work...that number would be smaller than one might assume because of the way the math works. Course, you can get into Warp vs. Singularity Cores, etc, etc, etc...but that's still only going to get into minute differences which will still generally leave the Warbird as the superior ship to its Fed/KDF counterparts. Need to break out lockbox ships if you really want to have that dance...
As for Post #3 in this thread, well...let's look at the math there, eh?
So that's SHP 89 and SAR 89.
SHP 89 ~= +11.3 Energy
SAR 80 ~= +11.3 Kinetic
Rare Mk XI Neut +17.5 Energy/Kinetic DRM
Rare Mk XI Mono +35 Kinetic DRM
So the numbers expected would be...
Kinetic: 43.5%
Energy: 31.2%
Not taking into account accolades, etc. Course, those aren't the numbers reported in Post #3.
Then again, it just happened that one of the ships I listed above was a Ha'feh, eh?
Not sure what the poster in Post #3 was looking at... /shrug
This thread kinda got lost in the mayhem involving the scimitar, but I never got a chance to come back and edit what I said. After last Thursday's update/patch, the resistances were fixed. My Ha'feh and Fleet Defiant now have identical hull resistances with identical equipment.
So any seemingness of squishiness is now due to lower shield power. That's it.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
This thread kinda got lost in the mayhem involving the scimitar, but I never got a chance to come back and edit what I said. After last Thursday's update/patch, the resistances were fixed. My Ha'feh and Fleet Defiant now have identical hull resistances with identical equipment.
So any seemingness of squishiness is now due to lower shield power. That's it.
Hey, can definitely see that - all sorts of flaky stuff has been happening like that. I've had to go back and edit things in posts because a few days later...it's just not the way it was anymore. Course, usually there's no patch notes that anything changed, meh.
It can kind of be entertaining at times, tbh. My fav was regarding EPtW. It was working a certain way on Holo. Even with changes, it was still working a certain way on Tribble. Then it went from Tribble to Holo...I was operating under the impression that it was working like it was on Holo/Tribble - but nope...it had changed, lol. Can be entertaining, frustrating, entertaining, frustrating - that little dance, oh well.
With regard to the shield power, much of that is going to depend on skill builds and gearing. During the LoR beta there was a lot of discussion about it, and a bunch of different folks varied on some basic things in their skill builds. For the most part, out of the 300k Space...my guys only vary by about 70-80k. Everything else is pretty standardized. Part of that includes SP in Potential, Efficiency, Performance. Another part of that is in taking Efficient/Theorist traits. I've got a guy that needs a desperate respec from something that I dorked around with, but they're pretty much all the same.
By the time you add in EPtS, TSS, ExS, various shields with resists...the difference in shields would be that much less.
A Fed/KDF can hit 130 while the Rom can only hit 125. That's 36.4% vs. 35%...1.4% better. But remember, there's 10% bleed. So the actual numbers would be:
130...42.8%
125...41.5%
1.3% difference...
Let's add EPtS1 (24%) into that, eh?
130...56.5%
125...55.5%
1.0% difference...
The more you add (TSS, ExS, shield with resists, etc) - the smaller that difference will be.
Yes, for somebody with no skills/traits/gear set for power, they're going to be running with 160 base power instead of 200 base power. That will be noticeable. Like I mentioned earlier, I kind of take it for granted...cause all of my guys (except the one) have Efficiency, Potential, Performance at certain levels - as well as the Efficient/Theorist traits.
One has to look at how they're actually running their power, rather than just looking at the balanced setting to view that difference too, imho. I have 5 less total power on my Reman at the balanced setting than I do with what he actually runs. Yep, he loses out on power gained from Efficiency.
Course, when they made the change to allow Fed/KDF to run at x/15 instead of x/25...it definitely made sure the gap remained. Before that, the difference was almost neglible. Now, you may see that 5-8 or so difference in power levels here or there. Depending on gearing, abilities, skill build - it could be more or less.
My Reman's not fully geared, and runs ~30 less total power compared to my average guy. I say average guy, because the two Eng I listed ooze power...~150-200+ power compared to the Reman Sci. The Manifold Efficiency trait, MACO shields on the Chel Grett, Leech on JHEC, DCE'd EPtW/EPtS on the Chel Grett, AtB'd EPtW/EPtS on the JHEC...yeah, they ooze power compared to my other guys.
So depending on build, it's going to vary how much of a hit a person is taking. Since I'm flying a Torp'varo that's generally cloaked, even when he's decloaked, it's just not noticeable...it's definitely going to depend on what the person is flying.
And yeah, none of this means that there might not be something off with a particular ship. Folks need to post when they see something off - details on the ship, skill build, gear, etc, etc, etc...that's the only way the guys at Cryptic can get in there and address anything...
Bean playing my heffy a lot just got killed in a red alert 100% hull and shields 100%, 27k crit hit and I go poof,,, now my hull states as 31k ish why me go poof?...
It does seem at times damage is bugged with the rom ships
Where ever you go, there you are.......
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
I've been able to take a quick look sooner than expected:
My FED tac in a Mirror patrol escort has 31,8% resists across the board (32,6% if having the damage accolade).
- This is with 6 points in both energy and kinetic damage resist. skills and none in threat and 2 Mk XI Blue Neutroniums.
My KDF-ROM tac in a C-Store Tier 5 Mogai has 31,8% resists across the board (32,6% with the damage accolade).
- This is also with 6 points in both energy and kinetic damage resist. skills and none in threat and 2 Mk XI Blue Neutroniums.
Also, two of my other low level toons still in Tier 2 Dhelans share the same resistances with same skills (none yet) and same equipment while being allied one with FEDs and other with KDF.
Regarding the latest post by Hereticknight and the same numbers on the Mogai and the mirror patrol (and in line with other FED/KDF ships I looked at), I guess I won't be taking a more detailed look anymore. Seems like the damage resistance issue has been resolved.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Romulan warbirds are NOT designed to go toe-to-toe with other ships.
They are designed to appear out of no where, strike hard and fast and then fade off into obscurity. The primary "weapon" of the warbird IS the battle cloak.
The Romulan racial stats. The Romulan/Reman BO space stats. Warbirds in general. All have been designed with the "uncloak-fire everything-cloak" concept in mind.
For them to have the same resists, armor, etc., as Fed or KDF ships would make the warbirds a bit over powered, IMHO.
The problem with this line of thinking is that a Cruiser style ship really doesn't play well in a cloak and dagger fight. In fact it plays very poorly for a lot of reasons, predominately because a Cruiser type of a ship like the D'deridex has a terrible turn rate, which makes it difficult to bring cannons to bear. It lacks tactical abilities to really make any kind of nasty offense to begin with from battle cloak, and in terms of the role of tanking and healing do you really wanna end up 15 kilometers of away from the battle while you're trying to turn around and decloak? I think the battlecloak is fantastic for maneuverable fast ships, but honestly its just a gimmick on any ship that's a Cruiser+. This includes the KDF ships with the same feature. Neghvars etc. The Vor'cha refit can make some decent use of its cloak, but that ship is also a lot more like an Escort than most of the other KDF classes.
Don't get me wrong I like flying my Romulan Cruisers, but I do detect a flimsiness in them. If I can click fast enough, some of the singularity protective abilities are quite helpful, and along with Miracle Worker (if I'm an Engineer) and the trait that boosts the same you can build in some toughness, but it is most definitely squishier than other Cruiser builds I've played. Additionally, the elephant in the room is that all these singularity abilities filling up our console slots promote even greater weakness on top of weakness. I'm neutral as far as the different factions go, and one could even say I'm predominately Klingon though I think that would be a wrong assessment. I do see some issues within the Romulan builds that either need consideration from us the players, or understanding, or maybe some fine tuning from the devs. Lets admit it, these ships are VERY different from the way ships have worked before. I think that much is intentional. As for me, I'm still getting a sense of the ship, and working on highest and best uses for a number of them. The ships that I have absolutely no problem finding highest and best use on, are not surprisingly the Escort-style Bird of prey Style Ships in the Fleet. The higher up the scale toward Cruiser you go though, and ... things just get weird. This is not to say that the D'deridex is bad. I must admit I really love chucking my Singularity projectile out at things... it just makes me sad the ship doesn't have the opportunity to utilize a little more science in its lineup.
Comments
Just a btw: If what hereticknight and others report isn't merely a UI bug and is intended, I would understand it. Would be a good counter to the seeming power creep in this game.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
I've noticed in stfs with a similarly equipped ha'nom and voyager that my little voyager takes much less of a beating and is much easier to play.
The skills listed are: Starship Threat Control (STC), Starship Structural Integrity (SSI), Starship Hull Plating (SHP), Starship Armor Reinforcements (SAR).
I chose not to show the numbers for abilities that increase resistances since Aux can play a role in that. Besides, the complaint appeared to be more of a core issue, no?
So let's see what I've got, eh?
Chel Grett w/ Eng
STC 54, SSI 125, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 49,665
Kinetic: 24.6%
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 85.0%
JHEC w/ Eng
STC 54, SSI 117, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 50,740
Kinetic: 24.6%
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 75.0%
Patrol Escort w/ Tac
STC 54. SSI 99, SHP 84, SAR 0, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 40,301
Kinetic: 25.6% (Jem Shields Mk XI)
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 80.0%
Mirror Vo'Quv w/ Tac
STC 54, SSI 117, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 56,829
Kinetic: 24.6%
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 62.8%
MU Deep Space w/ Sci
STC 54, SSI 99, SHP 84, SAR 0, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 35,101
Kinetic: 25.6% (Jem Shields Mk XI)
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 67.9%
Hegh'ta w/ Sci
STC 54, SSI 108, SHP 84, SAR 0, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 31,837
Kinetic: 25.6% (Jem Shields Mk XI)
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 80.0%
Okay, so how about the Romulan, eh? He's actually a Reman! But yeah, I've only got one on Holo. So what are his numbers in the three T5 ships he has? Let's look...
Reman Sci
Fleet T'varo
STC 54, SSI 108, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 40,884
Kinetic: 24.6%
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 82.5%
T'varo Retrofit
STC 54, SSI 108, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 37,167
Kinetic: 24.6%
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 82.5%
Ha'feh
STC 54, SSI 108, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
Hull: 42,673
Kinetic: 24.6%
Energy: 27.0%
Defense: 84.3%
So for these ships, pretty much everybody is getting the same, eh?
STC 54, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut and they've got 24.6% and 27.0% going for them. The folks with SAR 0 are sporting Jem Shields taking them to 25.6% (it goes higher on a toon with SAR 54 as expected).
While one can't directly compare the Hegh'ta to the T'varo Retro or Fleet T'varo (one would be better served doing so with the B'rel Retro and Fleet B'rel), one can still do the math to see that the T'varo Retro and Fleet T'varo would actually come out ahead of the B'rel boats. The easier comparison is the Ha'feh and Patrol Escort, where the Ha'feh is the better boat.
But then it gets into that Base40 vs. Base50 power thing, and well - not only does it not work out to -10 power per subsystem because of skills/traits, when you consider how shield resistances work...that number would be smaller than one might assume because of the way the math works. Course, you can get into Warp vs. Singularity Cores, etc, etc, etc...but that's still only going to get into minute differences which will still generally leave the Warbird as the superior ship to its Fed/KDF counterparts. Need to break out lockbox ships if you really want to have that dance...
As for Post #3 in this thread, well...let's look at the math there, eh?
So that's SHP 89 and SAR 89.
SHP 89 ~= +11.3 Energy
SAR 80 ~= +11.3 Kinetic
Rare Mk XI Neut +17.5 Energy/Kinetic DRM
Rare Mk XI Mono +35 Kinetic DRM
So the numbers expected would be...
Kinetic: 43.5%
Energy: 31.2%
Not taking into account accolades, etc. Course, those aren't the numbers reported in Post #3.
Then again, it just happened that one of the ships I listed above was a Ha'feh, eh?
Kinetic: 24.6%
Energy: 27.0%
Do they match up with how the math works?
STC 54 ~= +4.9 (Both)
SHP 84 ~= +10.7 (Energy)
SAR 54 ~= +7.2 (Kinetic)
Rare Mk XI Neut = +17.5 (Both)
Kinetic: 22.7%
Energy: 24.6%
So add in those 2% accolades, one can see the 24.7% and 26.6% being pretty close to the 24.6% and 27.0% numbers being reported...
...frankly, I'd suggest the poster from Post #3 take another look, eh?
Keep in mind the differences in skills:
STC 54, SHP 84, SAR 54
vs.
STC 0, SHP 89, SAR 89
Ha'feh
Kinetic: 44.6%
Energy: 34.8%
Does the math work out vs. the display?
STC 54 ~= +4.9 (Both)
SHP 84 ~= +10.7 (Energy)
SAR 54 ~= +7.2 (Kinetic)
Rare Mk XI Neut = +17.5 (Both)
Rare Mk XI Neut = +17.5 (Both)
Rare Mk XI Mono = +35.0 (Kinetic)
Kinetic: 43.6%
Energy: 33.1%
So yeah, again...add in accolades and it pretty much works out.
Not sure what the poster in Post #3 was looking at... /shrug
This thread kinda got lost in the mayhem involving the scimitar, but I never got a chance to come back and edit what I said. After last Thursday's update/patch, the resistances were fixed. My Ha'feh and Fleet Defiant now have identical hull resistances with identical equipment.
So any seemingness of squishiness is now due to lower shield power. That's it.
Hey, can definitely see that - all sorts of flaky stuff has been happening like that. I've had to go back and edit things in posts because a few days later...it's just not the way it was anymore. Course, usually there's no patch notes that anything changed, meh.
It can kind of be entertaining at times, tbh. My fav was regarding EPtW. It was working a certain way on Holo. Even with changes, it was still working a certain way on Tribble. Then it went from Tribble to Holo...I was operating under the impression that it was working like it was on Holo/Tribble - but nope...it had changed, lol. Can be entertaining, frustrating, entertaining, frustrating - that little dance, oh well.
With regard to the shield power, much of that is going to depend on skill builds and gearing. During the LoR beta there was a lot of discussion about it, and a bunch of different folks varied on some basic things in their skill builds. For the most part, out of the 300k Space...my guys only vary by about 70-80k. Everything else is pretty standardized. Part of that includes SP in Potential, Efficiency, Performance. Another part of that is in taking Efficient/Theorist traits. I've got a guy that needs a desperate respec from something that I dorked around with, but they're pretty much all the same.
By the time you add in EPtS, TSS, ExS, various shields with resists...the difference in shields would be that much less.
A Fed/KDF can hit 130 while the Rom can only hit 125. That's 36.4% vs. 35%...1.4% better. But remember, there's 10% bleed. So the actual numbers would be:
130...42.8%
125...41.5%
1.3% difference...
Let's add EPtS1 (24%) into that, eh?
130...56.5%
125...55.5%
1.0% difference...
The more you add (TSS, ExS, shield with resists, etc) - the smaller that difference will be.
Yes, for somebody with no skills/traits/gear set for power, they're going to be running with 160 base power instead of 200 base power. That will be noticeable. Like I mentioned earlier, I kind of take it for granted...cause all of my guys (except the one) have Efficiency, Potential, Performance at certain levels - as well as the Efficient/Theorist traits.
One has to look at how they're actually running their power, rather than just looking at the balanced setting to view that difference too, imho. I have 5 less total power on my Reman at the balanced setting than I do with what he actually runs. Yep, he loses out on power gained from Efficiency.
Course, when they made the change to allow Fed/KDF to run at x/15 instead of x/25...it definitely made sure the gap remained. Before that, the difference was almost neglible. Now, you may see that 5-8 or so difference in power levels here or there. Depending on gearing, abilities, skill build - it could be more or less.
My Reman's not fully geared, and runs ~30 less total power compared to my average guy. I say average guy, because the two Eng I listed ooze power...~150-200+ power compared to the Reman Sci. The Manifold Efficiency trait, MACO shields on the Chel Grett, Leech on JHEC, DCE'd EPtW/EPtS on the Chel Grett, AtB'd EPtW/EPtS on the JHEC...yeah, they ooze power compared to my other guys.
So depending on build, it's going to vary how much of a hit a person is taking. Since I'm flying a Torp'varo that's generally cloaked, even when he's decloaked, it's just not noticeable...it's definitely going to depend on what the person is flying.
And yeah, none of this means that there might not be something off with a particular ship. Folks need to post when they see something off - details on the ship, skill build, gear, etc, etc, etc...that's the only way the guys at Cryptic can get in there and address anything...
It does seem at times damage is bugged with the rom ships
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
My FED tac in a Mirror patrol escort has 31,8% resists across the board (32,6% if having the damage accolade).
- This is with 6 points in both energy and kinetic damage resist. skills and none in threat and 2 Mk XI Blue Neutroniums.
My KDF-ROM tac in a C-Store Tier 5 Mogai has 31,8% resists across the board (32,6% with the damage accolade).
- This is also with 6 points in both energy and kinetic damage resist. skills and none in threat and 2 Mk XI Blue Neutroniums.
Also, two of my other low level toons still in Tier 2 Dhelans share the same resistances with same skills (none yet) and same equipment while being allied one with FEDs and other with KDF.
Regarding the latest post by Hereticknight and the same numbers on the Mogai and the mirror patrol (and in line with other FED/KDF ships I looked at), I guess I won't be taking a more detailed look anymore. Seems like the damage resistance issue has been resolved.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
The problem with this line of thinking is that a Cruiser style ship really doesn't play well in a cloak and dagger fight. In fact it plays very poorly for a lot of reasons, predominately because a Cruiser type of a ship like the D'deridex has a terrible turn rate, which makes it difficult to bring cannons to bear. It lacks tactical abilities to really make any kind of nasty offense to begin with from battle cloak, and in terms of the role of tanking and healing do you really wanna end up 15 kilometers of away from the battle while you're trying to turn around and decloak? I think the battlecloak is fantastic for maneuverable fast ships, but honestly its just a gimmick on any ship that's a Cruiser+. This includes the KDF ships with the same feature. Neghvars etc. The Vor'cha refit can make some decent use of its cloak, but that ship is also a lot more like an Escort than most of the other KDF classes.
Don't get me wrong I like flying my Romulan Cruisers, but I do detect a flimsiness in them. If I can click fast enough, some of the singularity protective abilities are quite helpful, and along with Miracle Worker (if I'm an Engineer) and the trait that boosts the same you can build in some toughness, but it is most definitely squishier than other Cruiser builds I've played. Additionally, the elephant in the room is that all these singularity abilities filling up our console slots promote even greater weakness on top of weakness. I'm neutral as far as the different factions go, and one could even say I'm predominately Klingon though I think that would be a wrong assessment. I do see some issues within the Romulan builds that either need consideration from us the players, or understanding, or maybe some fine tuning from the devs. Lets admit it, these ships are VERY different from the way ships have worked before. I think that much is intentional. As for me, I'm still getting a sense of the ship, and working on highest and best uses for a number of them. The ships that I have absolutely no problem finding highest and best use on, are not surprisingly the Escort-style Bird of prey Style Ships in the Fleet. The higher up the scale toward Cruiser you go though, and ... things just get weird. This is not to say that the D'deridex is bad. I must admit I really love chucking my Singularity projectile out at things... it just makes me sad the ship doesn't have the opportunity to utilize a little more science in its lineup.