Just wondering, what would happen if the discounts were staggered a bit more exponentially (if that's the right word) to favour smaller fleets (what this fleet holding was supposed to address).
So 15% is max for T3, ok, what if you make T1 say 8% and T2 12%?
Just thinking, smaller fleets (including mine) are going to be stuck in lower tiers (likely T2) for much longer (indefinitely) than large ones that'll hit T3 as soon as the timers run out anyway.
So why not weight the discounts towards the lower end, so fleets without big fleet resources get larger discounts over a longer period of time? THIS would be how you'd benefit smaller fleets better imo.
this actually seems reasonable, and there are declining returns for most other stuff in the game
I'll run another test to confirm myself, but I've got one contraband in said toons inventory. So not having inventory space shouldn't be an issue, since they stack.
It's a confirmed bug, I haven't seen a fix on holodeck. Are your slavers stealing on Tribble or Live or Both.
EDIT: Tested on holodeck, after 17 minutes they stole 440 EC. I hope the nerf wasn't to the frequency.
I've only run the Slavers on Holodeck Live recently.
I had a different idea, one that I doubt would be popular, IF it could even work:
Why not make it a decreasing discount? (Note: ONLY on fleet projects. All other discounts, aka the dil store discounts for buying stuff for players would stay the same)
Namely, it starts out large, and goes down.
Example:
Tier 0: 0%
Tier 1: 30%
Tier 2: 20%
Tier 3: 10%
The logic behind it, in terms of in-game story, is that at tier 0, the mine is untapped, unused, and thus no discount is given. At tier 1, you could say that the whole output of the mine, while a bit basic, is all devoted to exporting the resources elsewhere, hence the larger discount. in-turn, as the mine is further developed, more resources are needed to maintain the mine, and a lesser discount is given.
In terms of how this would affect people, this would basically mean that, for the fleet projects only, a fleet could grind their mine to tier 1 and leave it there. So they would get this larger discount for all fleet holdings at the cost of not being able to get the best gear and such from it.
On the other end, the fleets that are ok without as large a discount can still tier up their mine, still getting a permanent discount across the board, but in turn being able to gain access to all the best new gear from it.
i dunno how well it'd work, but it would solve most of what people are wanting. It's help small fleets by letting them have their discounts to make SB and Embassy grinding less painful, medium and medium-large fleets would also get a discount along with probably leveling their mine at a good pace, while mega-fleets would get that discount, but still quickly mega-level the mine and finish it quickly (relatively speaking).
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I had a different idea, one that I doubt would be popular, IF it could even work:
Why not make it a decreasing discount? (Note: ONLY on fleet projects. All other discounts, aka the dil store discounts for buying stuff for players would stay the same)
Namely, it starts out large, and goes down.
Example:
Tier 0: 0%
Tier 1: 30%
Tier 2: 20%
Tier 3: 10%
The logic behind it, in terms of in-game story, is that at tier 0, the mine is untapped, unused, and thus no discount is given. At tier 1, you could say that the whole output of the mine, while a bit basic, is all devoted to exporting the resources elsewhere, hence the larger discount. in-turn, as the mine is further developed, more resources are needed to maintain the mine, and a lesser discount is given.
In terms of how this would affect people, this would basically mean that, for the fleet projects only, a fleet could grind their mine to tier 1 and leave it there. So they would get this larger discount for all fleet holdings at the cost of not being able to get the best gear and such from it.
On the other end, the fleets that are ok without as large a discount can still tier up their mine, still getting a permanent discount across the board, but in turn being able to gain access to all the best new gear from it.
i dunno how well it'd work, but it would solve most of what people are wanting. It's help small fleets by letting them have their discounts to make SB and Embassy grinding less painful, medium and medium-large fleets would also get a discount along with probably leveling their mine at a good pace, while mega-fleets would get that discount, but still quickly mega-level the mine and finish it quickly (relatively speaking).
if that was the case, here's what my fleet would do: make an alt fleet just to tier 3 the dilithium mine, keep main fleet at tier-1
Dilithium mine, even though it has lots of cool stuff, is another dilithium grinder. The discounts are cool too, but it doesnt help much the smaller fleets. If it takes long to fill current projects with small fleet, yeah, great idea to put in another holding so the people can grind more to fill that too.
Where in that is the idea to help out small fleet? :-(
if that was the case, here's what my fleet would do: make an alt fleet just to tier 3 the dilithium mine, keep main fleet at tier-1
My fleet would probably do the same. However, there would be fleets out there who would level the mine all the way in their 'main' fleet. Like the 500-man mega-fleets who need as much FC generation as possible.
Still, I know it isn't perfect an idea, not at all, but that seems to be acting like protomatter in a way by solving certain...'fundamental problems' regarding the fleet issue.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Dilithium mine, even though it has lots of cool stuff, is another dilithium grinder. The discounts are cool too, but it doesnt help much the smaller fleets. If it takes long to fill current projects with small fleet, yeah, great idea to put in another holding so the people can grind more to fill that too.
Where in that is the idea to help out small fleet? :-(
The real issue is that other than for PvP - no-one needs anything from the Fleet system
you don't need fleet ships/fleet gear/ fleet anything - to play 99% of the games content.
The fleet system should really be looked on as an "extra" thing that players can do - not that they must do.
If you "need" fleet gear or fleet ships to do ESTF's or most other missions - you are doing lots of things wrong.
My fleet would probably do the same. However, there would be fleets out there who would level the mine all the way in their 'main' fleet. Like the 500-man mega-fleets who need as much FC generation as possible.
Still, I know it isn't perfect an idea, not at all, but that seems to be acting like protomatter in a way by solving certain...'fundamental problems' regarding the fleet issue.
No need to give service to the mega fleets, most are adapting in other ways, for example, they stop actively recruiting, they create sister/branch specialized/alt fleets, or they ignore the issue completely.
A fleet that has a hard time generating fleet credits is making the problem themselves. No need to change the system just for them. Besides, that problem is more easily addressed by adding 4th slot embassy and dilithium mine projects that mimic the 5th slot starbase ones
Keep in mind the fleet system is supposed to be based on a fleet of 25 average sto players.
No need to give service to the mega fleets, most are adapting in other ways, for example, they stop actively recruiting, they create sister/branch specialized/alt fleets, or they ignore the issue completely.
A fleet that has a hard time generating fleet credits is making the problem themselves. No need to change the system just for them. Besides, that problem is more easily addressed by adding 4th slot embassy and dilithium mine projects that mimic the 5th slot starbase ones
Keep in mind the fleet system is supposed to be based on a fleet of 25 average sto players.
Didn't fleets operate just fine when starbases were just a dream?
Is this 17% figure just taking into account the Dilithium you would save? Does it take into account all the Fleet marks, commodities, doffs etc - that people will save having the mininig holding?
You're only getting a discount on dilithium and fleet marks. There is no discount on commodities or doffs. By building the mine, you end up having to spend even more of those.
Secondly, what the hell else would the 17% figure take into account? You expend roughly 4.5 million dilithium to build the mine. To recoup that investment from a fleet holding (full starbase + embassy) that costs over 29 million dilithium the discount needs to be 17% or more.
Being slightly worse off than you were is now a significant improvement? Fleets that don't build this are just as screwed as they are if they do build this. That's not a significant improvement in the least. That's a ponzi scheme.
You're only getting a discount on dilithium and fleet marks. There is no discount on commodities or doffs. By building the mine, you end up having to spend even more of those.
Secondly, what the hell else would the 17% figure take into account? You expend roughly 4.5 million dilithium to build the mine. To recoup that investment from a fleet holding (full starbase + embassy) that costs over 29 million dilithium the discount needs to be 17% or more.
It's fairly simple math.
Being slightly worse off than you were is now a significant improvement? Fleets that don't build this are just as screwed as they are if they do build this.
there is a discount on all fleet project inputs including duty officers and doffs
The good news is that the Item/Commodity discounts also apply to Duty Officers. The other good news is that the patch notes were updated to reflect how the changes to Duty Officer fleet project inputs actually work.
I completely missed that statement, thank you (seriously). I'll run some numbers when I get a moment, but I suspect the outcome for Doffs and commodities is going to be identical to the outcome for dilith and fms - IE: you lose more than you gain.
Additionally, that doesn't change the fact that the mine doesn't break even, nor is it even remotely the "significant improvement" Stahl's been screaming about for months.
I completely missed that statement, thank you (seriously). I'll run some numbers when I get a moment, but I suspect the outcome for Doffs and commodities is going to be identical to the outcome for dilith and fms - IE: you lose more than you gain.
Additionally, that doesn't change the fact that the mine doesn't break even, nor is it even remotely the "significant improvement" Stahl's been screaming about for months.
I would love to see those numbers too (seriously)
keep in mind also the mining duty officer assignments, the benefits for emerging fleets, and the plans for more fleet holdings in the future (that last part means fleets are going to be seriously consolidated)
keep in mind also the mining duty officer assignments, the benefits for emerging fleets, and the plans for more fleet holdings in the future (that last part means fleets are going to be seriously consolidated)
Here's my biggest problem with all of this booty: the mine was repeatedly described as the means by which the resource burden on fleets would be significantly reduced in the short term. That doesn't mean "well, when we've added in five more fleet holdings over the next five years you'll have paid slightly less than you would have without this addition". It means "here's a mechanic we're adding to significantly reduce the amount of input you need right now, to such a degree that you're seeing benefits from day one".
The current implementation of the mine is the former, not the latter. And frankly, given the goodwill that cryptic have earned with LoR's content (I'm not getting into the stability issues argument, those are a given for MMOs), it's entirely idiotic to squander all of it by making their first post-LoR action a giant, and blatant, reneg.
Is this 17% figure just taking into account the Dilithium you would save? Does it take into account all the Fleet marks, commodities, doffs etc - that people will save having the mininig holding?
Even if true that means that this new holding is almost "free" - with all it's extra's - if it were done long before the end of starbase construction vs not doing it at all.
I would call that a significant improvement.
The 17% number is based on the same figures that the old Starbase+3 embassies figure was. It assumes a new fleet maxes out the dilithium mine, counting discounts on the mine itself, and then maxes the starbase and embassy on full discount, and doesn't do any provisioning on any of the three holdings during or after the grind. You'll make up the last 2% pretty quick with provisioning.
Here's my biggest problem with all of this booty: the mine was repeatedly described as the means by which the resource burden on fleets would be significantly reduced in the short term. [...] It means "here's a mechanic we're adding to significantly reduce the amount of input you need right now, to such a degree that you're seeing benefits from day one".
I administer a mid-sized fleet (~107 toons online in last 2 days, 274 in last 30, ~2/3 are SB contributors)
Honestly the Dmine isn't really going help us or hurt us. We are well balanced for or fleet size and starbase needs, the additional holding won't impact much either way, the discounts mean less fleet credits and the additional costs are minor.
What I'm really looking forward to is the doff imbalance fix, that will greatly help our fleet and every other non-maxed fleet of any size.
Having talked to other fleet leaders that carefully manage their holdings (we already have spread sheets for the diltihium mine), it my personal opinion that fleet holdings are optimized for a mid-sized fleet with ~25 dedicated contributors.
Personally I have a hard time thinking of a way Cryptic could help small fleets without it being exploited. The mailbox nerf last month effectively stopped all the doff love myself and others were giving to smaller fleets and I will likely consolidate those toons.
The best I can come up with is an alliance system where members can donate to allied fleets, but that solution isn't simple to make and can have its own issues. Its a tough pickle.
So we have to spend triple the DIL (Due to the 3 Tiers of the DIL mine) to save on DIL, to build a DIL mine? To get a 15% savings after the fact, after we spend triple the DIL we wanted to save?
Yes that makes logical sense.
Our main fleet contributors (including me) contribute A LOT. Of DIL. Our main leaders have many ALt's for DIL farming. The amount they spend is inconceivable to get the Starbase to it's Tier's. Plus the 20H timers. It's taking forever for us to get to Tier IV, and that is with constantly getting projects done in less then an hour they are put up.
I don't know Cryptic if you are really convincing me you have any idea what you are doing at this point. Unless it's for the pure fact of making max profit on people converting Zen to DIL (by spending real money) to get said DIL to even keep up wit the un-imaginable costs for a Starbase.
I have heard it can take a Year to get a max starbase? That's a little ridiculous.
IN realism every person in every fleet needs at least 4 alts not only to keep up with Starbase building, but also their own characters. Not to even mention the fact of having a life outside of STO.
Since you are decreasing the inputs by 4/9/15% why don't you increase the Fleet Credit rewards by 4/9/15% to help counter the reduced credits that will be available for larger fleets to fight over.
See, the input discounts exacerbate a problem larger fleets already have, BUT, I think this is a good thing in that one change could fix BOTH large and small fleet problems: fleet alliances.
Allow fleet members to put resources into the missions of ANY allied fleet. Larger fleets get an outlet for resources and a rich new source for fleet credits; smaller fleets get an influx of resources they so desperately need. Thoughts?
How about introduction of something like Dilithium Surplus for Dilithium Mine holding:
Every time Fleet member mined Dilithium in the Mine he/she gets Dilithium Surplus in ADDITION to normal payout (like 10%,20%,30% depending on tier). This Dilithium Surplus does not need refinement and not counts against players refinement cap, but can ONLY be used as supplement, to any Dilithium requirements on any project , it will give same Fleet Credit rewards, as regular Dilithium does.
Exemple:
Provision Fleet Ships I : 18,000 Refined dilithium OR dilitium surplus
the same way we can contribute Medical OR Science Officers now.
If game mechanics can not support OR statement , Just automatically add surplus to any available projects, that required Dilithium and give player Fleet Credits. This will ensure ,that fleet will always run at least one dilitium required project at all time.
This model WILL help small fleets, will not directly affect Dilitium economy and will increase Fleet participation.
Thank you for listening.
See, the input discounts exacerbate a problem larger fleets already have, BUT, I think this is a good thing in that one change could fix BOTH large and small fleet problems: fleet alliances.
Allow fleet members to put resources into the missions of ANY allied fleet. Larger fleets get an outlet for resources and a rich new source for fleet credits; smaller fleets get an influx of resources they so desperately need. Thoughts?
I think this really is the ideal solution as well. Just have it so that when you invite someone to your fleet base, thier is an NPC there that allows you to donate to thats starbases projects. The fleet I am in maxed out the Embassey months ago and our starbase is currently undergoing the final upgrade project now, we are them finished until the Dilithium mine holding comes in. Howver, we are constantly running projects so members can generate fleet credits, I would be more than happy to put my resources to fleets that really need it to generate fleet credits.
if the option was there.
Here's my biggest problem with all of this booty: the mine was repeatedly described as the means by which the resource burden on fleets would be significantly reduced in the short term. That doesn't mean "well, when we've added in five more fleet holdings over the next five years you'll have paid slightly less than you would have without this addition". It means "here's a mechanic we're adding to significantly reduce the amount of input you need right now, to such a degree that you're seeing benefits from day one".
The current implementation of the mine is the former, not the latter. And frankly, given the goodwill that cryptic have earned with LoR's content (I'm not getting into the stability issues argument, those are a given for MMOs), it's entirely idiotic to squander all of it by making their first post-LoR action a giant, and blatant, reneg.
for our base the hold up is never dilithium...
what stalls out our project are the ridiculous number of Doffs required. There is no easy way to get WHITE doffs in the numbers required.
You can buy them off the exchange but people are gouging so its fairly expensive to fill.
Packs make it slightly easier but then there is the issue of STORING all the doffs you dont need at the moment. And the fact that for me at least 9/10 you get a bunch of chefs and bartenders.
IMO these bases need a complete overhaul.
It shouldnt take longer than 6 months from start to finish.
How about introduction of something like Dilithium Surplus for Dilithium Mine holding:
Every time Fleet member mined Dilithium in the Mine he/she gets Dilithium Surplus in ADDITION to normal payout (like 10%,20%,30% depending on tier). This Dilithium Surplus does not need refinement and not counts against players refinement cap, but can ONLY be used as supplement, to any Dilithium requirements on any project , it will give same Fleet Credit rewards, as regular Dilithium does.
Exemple:
Provision Fleet Ships I : 18,000 Refined dilithium OR dilitium surplus
the same way we can contribute Medical OR Science Officers now.
If game mechanics can not support OR statement , Just automatically add surplus to any available projects, that required Dilithium and give player Fleet Credits. This will ensure ,that fleet will always run at least one dilitium required project at all time.
This model WILL help small fleets, will not directly affect Dilitium economy and will increase Fleet participation.
Thank you for listening.
This would help. Perhaps you buy a dilithium surplus boost that works just like the fleet mark boost, pay for it with fleet credits, and the surplus can only be used on Starbase projects. In my small fleet, we're rolling in extra fleet credits but we're starved for dilithium and fleet marks, and being able to put them back in the fleet would be helpful.
See, the input discounts exacerbate a problem larger fleets already have, BUT, I think this is a good thing in that one change could fix BOTH large and small fleet problems: fleet alliances.
Allow fleet members to put resources into the missions of ANY allied fleet. Larger fleets get an outlet for resources and a rich new source for fleet credits; smaller fleets get an influx of resources they so desperately need. Thoughts?
I'm going to toss out another idea to improve the ability for small fleets to progress their starbase. Create different size fleet limits. The default now is 500, but let's have multiple member limits. Maybe 100, 250, and 500 are good to start. All existing fleets and newly created fleets select what their limit is. This is a one time choice and can never be changed. If you pick 100 and later decide you want more than 100 members, tough, you chose poorly. At that time, fleet project costs are scaled to that max limit. A fleet with a member max of 100 has much lower project costs across the board. 250 and 500 are adjusted as needed. I don't know what the needs of medium and large fleets are, so I won't comment there.
My fleet will never have 100 members. It will probably never have 50 members, even counting alts. A lot of friends and family fleets are in the same situation, and I think most of us would gladly select a permanent lower maximum member limit in exchange for lower project costs.
I'm going to toss out another idea to improve the ability for small fleets to progress their starbase. Create different size fleet limits. The default now is 500, but let's have multiple member limits. Maybe 100, 250, and 500 are good to start. All existing fleets and newly created fleets select what their limit is. This is a one time choice and can never be changed. If you pick 100 and later decide you want more than 100 members, tough, you chose poorly. At that time, fleet project costs are scaled to that max limit. A fleet with a member max of 100 has much lower project costs across the board. 250 and 500 are adjusted as needed. I don't know what the needs of medium and large fleets are, so I won't comment there.
My fleet will never have 100 members. It will probably never have 50 members, even counting alts. A lot of friends and family fleets are in the same situation, and I think most of us would gladly select a permanent lower maximum member limit in exchange for lower project costs.
thats actually a pretty good idea, my only concern would be another "faction" like romulans, romulan alts inflated a lot of fleet numbers by significant margin
Personally I have a hard time thinking of a way Cryptic could help small fleets without it being exploited.
...
The best I can come up with is an alliance system where members can donate to allied fleets, but that solution isn't simple to make and can have its own issues. Its a tough pickle.
Do you think my idea of scaling the discounts to favour smaller fleets that'll be stuck in T1/T2 longest (to like 8%/12%/15% for T1/T2/T3 respectively) could be exploited?
As for how to benefit smaller fleets more, don't smaller fleet have more fleet creds? Individuals are inputting more stuff compared to members of larger fleets and so have more FC's to spare? (myself am floating around 2mil unused FC's).
Could FC's themselves be used as an alternative input for some projects? Instead of, or to decrease, FM's and dil requirements?
Larger fleets would have a harder time getting FC's to handle those projects?
Do you think my idea of scaling the discounts to favour smaller fleets that'll be stuck in T1/T2 longest (to like 8%/12%/15% for T1/T2/T3 respectively) could be exploited?
As for how to benefit smaller fleets more, don't smaller fleet have more fleet creds? Individuals are inputting more stuff compared to members of larger fleets and so have more FC's to spare? (myself am floating around 2mil unused FC's).
Could FC's themselves be used as an alternative input for some projects? Instead of, or to decrease, FM's and dil requirements?
Larger fleets would have a harder time getting FC's to handle those projects?
Having the option to feed FC into the SB to pay for projects as an alternate cost would be an interesting idea, as long as its a reasonable rate. Currently this is partially done with the doff vendor but the smaller the fleet is the more FC each person will have. Large fleets might use it with the people that normally contibute the most. Although I would expect them to be mostly just hoarding their FC for the stores in new holdings that are added. Don't want to spend all your FC then have them add a holding that sells tac consoles.
Comments
this actually seems reasonable, and there are declining returns for most other stuff in the game
I'm a little confused by that statement. Is there a second floor (that I don't know about) or is the second floor where the stores are?
I've only run the Slavers on Holodeck Live recently.
Why not make it a decreasing discount? (Note: ONLY on fleet projects. All other discounts, aka the dil store discounts for buying stuff for players would stay the same)
Namely, it starts out large, and goes down.
Example:
Tier 0: 0%
Tier 1: 30%
Tier 2: 20%
Tier 3: 10%
The logic behind it, in terms of in-game story, is that at tier 0, the mine is untapped, unused, and thus no discount is given. At tier 1, you could say that the whole output of the mine, while a bit basic, is all devoted to exporting the resources elsewhere, hence the larger discount. in-turn, as the mine is further developed, more resources are needed to maintain the mine, and a lesser discount is given.
In terms of how this would affect people, this would basically mean that, for the fleet projects only, a fleet could grind their mine to tier 1 and leave it there. So they would get this larger discount for all fleet holdings at the cost of not being able to get the best gear and such from it.
On the other end, the fleets that are ok without as large a discount can still tier up their mine, still getting a permanent discount across the board, but in turn being able to gain access to all the best new gear from it.
i dunno how well it'd work, but it would solve most of what people are wanting. It's help small fleets by letting them have their discounts to make SB and Embassy grinding less painful, medium and medium-large fleets would also get a discount along with probably leveling their mine at a good pace, while mega-fleets would get that discount, but still quickly mega-level the mine and finish it quickly (relatively speaking).
if that was the case, here's what my fleet would do: make an alt fleet just to tier 3 the dilithium mine, keep main fleet at tier-1
Where in that is the idea to help out small fleet? :-(
My fleet would probably do the same. However, there would be fleets out there who would level the mine all the way in their 'main' fleet. Like the 500-man mega-fleets who need as much FC generation as possible.
Still, I know it isn't perfect an idea, not at all, but that seems to be acting like protomatter in a way by solving certain...'fundamental problems' regarding the fleet issue.
The real issue is that other than for PvP - no-one needs anything from the Fleet system
you don't need fleet ships/fleet gear/ fleet anything - to play 99% of the games content.
The fleet system should really be looked on as an "extra" thing that players can do - not that they must do.
If you "need" fleet gear or fleet ships to do ESTF's or most other missions - you are doing lots of things wrong.
No need to give service to the mega fleets, most are adapting in other ways, for example, they stop actively recruiting, they create sister/branch specialized/alt fleets, or they ignore the issue completely.
A fleet that has a hard time generating fleet credits is making the problem themselves. No need to change the system just for them. Besides, that problem is more easily addressed by adding 4th slot embassy and dilithium mine projects that mimic the 5th slot starbase ones
Keep in mind the fleet system is supposed to be based on a fleet of 25 average sto players.
Didn't fleets operate just fine when starbases were just a dream?
You're only getting a discount on dilithium and fleet marks. There is no discount on commodities or doffs. By building the mine, you end up having to spend even more of those.
Secondly, what the hell else would the 17% figure take into account? You expend roughly 4.5 million dilithium to build the mine. To recoup that investment from a fleet holding (full starbase + embassy) that costs over 29 million dilithium the discount needs to be 17% or more.
It's fairly simple math.
Being slightly worse off than you were is now a significant improvement? Fleets that don't build this are just as screwed as they are if they do build this. That's not a significant improvement in the least. That's a ponzi scheme.
there is a discount on all fleet project inputs including duty officers and doffs
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=10772661#post10772661
I completely missed that statement, thank you (seriously). I'll run some numbers when I get a moment, but I suspect the outcome for Doffs and commodities is going to be identical to the outcome for dilith and fms - IE: you lose more than you gain.
Additionally, that doesn't change the fact that the mine doesn't break even, nor is it even remotely the "significant improvement" Stahl's been screaming about for months.
I would love to see those numbers too (seriously)
keep in mind also the mining duty officer assignments, the benefits for emerging fleets, and the plans for more fleet holdings in the future (that last part means fleets are going to be seriously consolidated)
Like I said, when I have some solid free time:)
Here's my biggest problem with all of this booty: the mine was repeatedly described as the means by which the resource burden on fleets would be significantly reduced in the short term. That doesn't mean "well, when we've added in five more fleet holdings over the next five years you'll have paid slightly less than you would have without this addition". It means "here's a mechanic we're adding to significantly reduce the amount of input you need right now, to such a degree that you're seeing benefits from day one".
The current implementation of the mine is the former, not the latter. And frankly, given the goodwill that cryptic have earned with LoR's content (I'm not getting into the stability issues argument, those are a given for MMOs), it's entirely idiotic to squander all of it by making their first post-LoR action a giant, and blatant, reneg.
The 17% number is based on the same figures that the old Starbase+3 embassies figure was. It assumes a new fleet maxes out the dilithium mine, counting discounts on the mine itself, and then maxes the starbase and embassy on full discount, and doesn't do any provisioning on any of the three holdings during or after the grind. You'll make up the last 2% pretty quick with provisioning.
I administer a mid-sized fleet (~107 toons online in last 2 days, 274 in last 30, ~2/3 are SB contributors)
Honestly the Dmine isn't really going help us or hurt us. We are well balanced for or fleet size and starbase needs, the additional holding won't impact much either way, the discounts mean less fleet credits and the additional costs are minor.
What I'm really looking forward to is the doff imbalance fix, that will greatly help our fleet and every other non-maxed fleet of any size.
Having talked to other fleet leaders that carefully manage their holdings (we already have spread sheets for the diltihium mine), it my personal opinion that fleet holdings are optimized for a mid-sized fleet with ~25 dedicated contributors.
Personally I have a hard time thinking of a way Cryptic could help small fleets without it being exploited. The mailbox nerf last month effectively stopped all the doff love myself and others were giving to smaller fleets and I will likely consolidate those toons.
The best I can come up with is an alliance system where members can donate to allied fleets, but that solution isn't simple to make and can have its own issues. Its a tough pickle.
Yes that makes logical sense.
Our main fleet contributors (including me) contribute A LOT. Of DIL. Our main leaders have many ALt's for DIL farming. The amount they spend is inconceivable to get the Starbase to it's Tier's. Plus the 20H timers. It's taking forever for us to get to Tier IV, and that is with constantly getting projects done in less then an hour they are put up.
I don't know Cryptic if you are really convincing me you have any idea what you are doing at this point. Unless it's for the pure fact of making max profit on people converting Zen to DIL (by spending real money) to get said DIL to even keep up wit the un-imaginable costs for a Starbase.
I have heard it can take a Year to get a max starbase? That's a little ridiculous.
IN realism every person in every fleet needs at least 4 alts not only to keep up with Starbase building, but also their own characters. Not to even mention the fact of having a life outside of STO.
See, the input discounts exacerbate a problem larger fleets already have, BUT, I think this is a good thing in that one change could fix BOTH large and small fleet problems: fleet alliances.
Allow fleet members to put resources into the missions of ANY allied fleet. Larger fleets get an outlet for resources and a rich new source for fleet credits; smaller fleets get an influx of resources they so desperately need. Thoughts?
Every time Fleet member mined Dilithium in the Mine he/she gets Dilithium Surplus in ADDITION to normal payout (like 10%,20%,30% depending on tier). This Dilithium Surplus does not need refinement and not counts against players refinement cap, but can ONLY be used as supplement, to any Dilithium requirements on any project , it will give same Fleet Credit rewards, as regular Dilithium does.
Exemple:
Provision Fleet Ships I : 18,000 Refined dilithium OR dilitium surplus
the same way we can contribute Medical OR Science Officers now.
If game mechanics can not support OR statement , Just automatically add surplus to any available projects, that required Dilithium and give player Fleet Credits. This will ensure ,that fleet will always run at least one dilitium required project at all time.
This model WILL help small fleets, will not directly affect Dilitium economy and will increase Fleet participation.
Thank you for listening.
I think this really is the ideal solution as well. Just have it so that when you invite someone to your fleet base, thier is an NPC there that allows you to donate to thats starbases projects. The fleet I am in maxed out the Embassey months ago and our starbase is currently undergoing the final upgrade project now, we are them finished until the Dilithium mine holding comes in. Howver, we are constantly running projects so members can generate fleet credits, I would be more than happy to put my resources to fleets that really need it to generate fleet credits.
if the option was there.
It's similar here = a Dilithium mine needs Dilithium to build/repair/modify/power the equipment that's mining it in the first place.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
for our base the hold up is never dilithium...
what stalls out our project are the ridiculous number of Doffs required. There is no easy way to get WHITE doffs in the numbers required.
You can buy them off the exchange but people are gouging so its fairly expensive to fill.
Packs make it slightly easier but then there is the issue of STORING all the doffs you dont need at the moment. And the fact that for me at least 9/10 you get a bunch of chefs and bartenders.
IMO these bases need a complete overhaul.
It shouldnt take longer than 6 months from start to finish.
This would help. Perhaps you buy a dilithium surplus boost that works just like the fleet mark boost, pay for it with fleet credits, and the surplus can only be used on Starbase projects. In my small fleet, we're rolling in extra fleet credits but we're starved for dilithium and fleet marks, and being able to put them back in the fleet would be helpful.
Yes please. This would be immensely helpful.
My fleet will never have 100 members. It will probably never have 50 members, even counting alts. A lot of friends and family fleets are in the same situation, and I think most of us would gladly select a permanent lower maximum member limit in exchange for lower project costs.
15% discount on a million dilithium input is rather durr.
thats actually a pretty good idea, my only concern would be another "faction" like romulans, romulan alts inflated a lot of fleet numbers by significant margin
Do you think my idea of scaling the discounts to favour smaller fleets that'll be stuck in T1/T2 longest (to like 8%/12%/15% for T1/T2/T3 respectively) could be exploited?
As for how to benefit smaller fleets more, don't smaller fleet have more fleet creds? Individuals are inputting more stuff compared to members of larger fleets and so have more FC's to spare? (myself am floating around 2mil unused FC's).
Could FC's themselves be used as an alternative input for some projects? Instead of, or to decrease, FM's and dil requirements?
Larger fleets would have a harder time getting FC's to handle those projects?
Having the option to feed FC into the SB to pay for projects as an alternate cost would be an interesting idea, as long as its a reasonable rate. Currently this is partially done with the doff vendor but the smaller the fleet is the more FC each person will have. Large fleets might use it with the people that normally contibute the most. Although I would expect them to be mostly just hoarding their FC for the stores in new holdings that are added. Don't want to spend all your FC then have them add a holding that sells tac consoles.