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Forums > Home› Feedback› Romulan Discussion

mogai retrofit vs Dehlan retrofit

threesnapthreesnap Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited June 2013 in Romulan Discussion
Hey guys,

I just wanted to get your thoughts on what on which ship Dehlan or moagi retrofits [vice admiral] you think would make a better cannon ship to fly, I'm wanting to do a aux2bat build, I kind of like the dehlan but not sure if the lt com science boff slot would do too much good since that uses mostly aux power and I wont have much of that.

thoughts?
Post edited by threesnap on
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  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    threesnap wrote: »
    Hey guys,

    I just wanted to get your thoughts on what on which ship Dehlan or moagi retrofits [vice admiral] you think would make a better cannon ship to fly, I'm wanting to do a aux2bat build, I kind of like the dehlan but not sure if the lt com science boff slot would do too much good since that uses mostly aux power and I wont have much of that.

    thoughts?

    Fleet Dhelan doesn't have a Commander Scienc station.

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Dhelan_Warbird_Retrofit

    Some useful Sci skills do not use Aux such as Science Team, Scarmble / Jam Sensors, and lesser extent, Polarize Hull and Tractor beam.

    Dhelan is a more well rounded ship in terms of boff station however if you want to run a cannon build, you should go with the Mogai as it has a pay to win console associated with energy weapon.
  • threesnapthreesnap Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    iskandus wrote: »
    Fleet Dhelan doesn't have a Commander Scienc station.

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Dhelan_Warbird_Retrofit

    Some useful Sci skills do not use Aux such as Science Team, Scarmble / Jam Sensors, and lesser extent, Polarize Hull and Tractor beam.

    Dhelan is a more well rounded ship in terms of boff station however if you want to run a cannon build, you should go with the Mogai as it has a pay to win console associated with energy weapon.

    Honestly I'm still pretty new to the game, I have the valdore console so i could get the set bonus if i went with the mogai retrofit. My biggest problem with the mogai is the turn rate, since i am still pretty new to the game, i don't have alot of good consoles so i'm worried the mogai will turn like a brick and not be able to keep enemies in the dual cannon firing arc.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    threesnap wrote: »
    Honestly I'm still pretty new to the game, I have the valdore console so i could get the set bonus if i went with the mogai retrofit. My biggest problem with the mogai is the turn rate, since i am still pretty new to the game, i don't have alot of good consoles so i'm worried the mogai will turn like a brick and not be able to keep enemies in the dual cannon firing arc.

    You're complaining about the turn rate of the Mogai? Are you sure you have the right ship in mind? The Mogai has a turn rate of 14, the highest of any Battlecruiser in the game. It turns better than the Klingon Battlecruisers that have a great reputation as a turning cruiser (their best is the Fleet K'T'Inga; turn rate is 11).
    XzRTofz.gif
  • mwildermwilder Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    i had the same problem, with the turn rate, If you can afford to get the Helmsman trait it gives a 10% boost to turn rate. it really helps in i have to dial back to about 3/4 impulse or over shoot the target. They are a bit pricy on the exchange right now right at 12mil and up but it was worth it.
    Liberty Task Force
    "Liberty, Equality, Justice, Peace & Cooperation"
    http://www.libertytaskforce.com
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    You guys are serious!... A turn rate 14 ship isn't nimble enough? LOL!!!!
    XzRTofz.gif
  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,676 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    There must be some sort of bug you're experiencing, because the Mogai is decently fast and nimble, and compares favorably to anything short of the Jem bug or a Klingon Bird of Prey. Just a few degrees/sec lower than any C-Store escort Fed side or Raptor KDF side.

    Unless you're running Hyper-Impulse Engines like Aegis and are starving them for power, I can't think of anything that'd be causing difficultly.
  • kaigen42kaigen42 Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Or it might just be a perception issue. The Mogai has a broad wingspan and an oddly placed turning point, which makes it feel unwieldy despite the fact that it has a turn rate nearly as good as an escort.
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kaigen42 wrote: »
    Or it might just be a perception issue. The Mogai has a broad wingspan and an oddly placed turning point, which makes it feel unwieldy despite the fact that it has a turn rate nearly as good as an escort.

    Thats probably a bigger issue really, getting used to the sheer size of the ship. I know I tend to not really look at distance measurements in the HUD so much as eyeballing size of my ship compared to my target as i close. When we're almost the same size, time to throttle back or maneuver or something. With the Mogai though, I make my approach, shoot shoot shoot, then seem to just stop in space. Looks like I got plenty of distance between me and the target, as I'm still twice his size. Oh wait, I am twice his size. And I just rammed him. Again. Dummy. Its just something to get used to.
  • turalisj89turalisj89 Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I wish you could damage other ships by putting full power to forward shields and ramming them :(

    But, uh, yeah, anyway. Mogai Retrofit. It's totally cool, that's what I'm using right now. I do tend to die several times per elite STF, but that's because I tend to draw aggro like a game developer draws hate mail.
  • mwildermwilder Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    reginamala78 wrote: »
    Thats probably a bigger issue really, getting used to the sheer size of the ship. I know I tend to not really look at distance measurements in the HUD so much as eyeballing size of my ship compared to my target as i close. When we're almost the same size, time to throttle back or maneuver or something. With the Mogai though, I make my approach, shoot shoot shoot, then seem to just stop in space. Looks like I got plenty of distance between me and the target, as I'm still twice his size. Oh wait, I am twice his size. And I just rammed him. Again. Dummy. Its just something to get used to.

    Yea you guys are right, i fly a Mobius on my Fed main which have a much smaller profile, so i just need to get used to swinging that long nose around. but i love my Valdore, now im working on getting the fleet version and let then pain begin......
    Liberty Task Force
    "Liberty, Equality, Justice, Peace & Cooperation"
    http://www.libertytaskforce.com
  • mwildermwilder Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    turalisj89 wrote: »
    I wish you could damage other ships by putting full power to forward shields and ramming them :(

    But, uh, yeah, anyway. Mogai Retrofit. It's totally cool, that's what I'm using right now. I do tend to die several times per elite STF, but that's because I tend to draw aggro like a game developer draws hate mail.

    Omg i was in a elite STF with 4 other tacs, and the tac cube totally singled me out and ignored the other guys. I was like im i really pulling that much aggro. It was so funny the cube actually stopped in its tracks and changed direction toward me. It was like ok so you want my attention here it goes. i even have a threat reducing console from the embassy still no help.
    Liberty Task Force
    "Liberty, Equality, Justice, Peace & Cooperation"
    http://www.libertytaskforce.com
  • bluegrassgeekbluegrassgeek Member Posts: 360 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    warmaker001b wrote: »
    You're complaining about the turn rate of the Mogai? Are you sure you have the right ship in mind? The Mogai has a turn rate of 14, the highest of any Battlecruiser in the game. It turns better than the Klingon Battlecruisers that have a great reputation as a turning cruiser (their best is the Fleet K'T'Inga; turn rate is 11).

    I think people expect the Mogai to be an escort, rather than a cruiser. That's where the complaints about turn rate come from. My guess is it's the wingspan. People are used to "big wingspan = B'rel" and think that's what they're getting in the Mogai/Valdore.
    ____
    Keep calm, and continue firing photon torpedoes.
  • reximuzreximuz Member Posts: 1,172 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    bluegrassgeek wrote: »
    I think people expect the Mogai to be an escort, rather than a cruiser. That's where the complaints about turn rate come from. My guess is it's the wingspan. People are used to "big wingspan = B'rel" and think that's what they're getting in the Mogai/Valdore.

    The Mogai is more like an escort than a cruiser. It has a Escort weapon layout and an Escort turn rate (base turn rate of 14 is more in line with escorts 14-17 than cruisers 5-11). Unless a player was used to something really fast like a KDF BoP I don't see how they think its especially slow. Its very similar to the Chimera Destroyer, which is classified as an escort.
  • roman1229roman1229 Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I got a Mogai Retrofit from the C-store and am having a ball with it. It's still being tweeked but to me it's a great cannon starship.
  • mwildermwilder Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    bluegrassgeek wrote: »
    I think people expect the Mogai to be an escort, rather than a cruiser. That's where the complaints about turn rate come from. My guess is it's the wingspan. People are used to "big wingspan = B'rel" and think that's what they're getting in the Mogai/Valdore.

    Ok so with that being said would a full cannon build DHC/turrets like an escort or DBB,DHC/BA,turrets be a better way to go? keep in mind that I am not some DPS power hungry min/max'er. I just like to be able to give as well as i get. I do pretty well right now other then the fact that i pull a lot of aggro, but thats a good thing i guess it means NPC see me as a threat.
    Liberty Task Force
    "Liberty, Equality, Justice, Peace & Cooperation"
    http://www.libertytaskforce.com
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    bluegrassgeek wrote: »
    I think people expect the Mogai to be an escort, rather than a cruiser. That's where the complaints about turn rate come from. My guess is it's the wingspan. People are used to "big wingspan = B'rel" and think that's what they're getting in the Mogai/Valdore.
    I have no problem playing my Mogai as an escort. The turn rate isn't so bad, at least in PVE.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bluegrassgeekbluegrassgeek Member Posts: 360 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    reximuz wrote: »
    The Mogai is more like an escort than a cruiser. It has a Escort weapon layout and an Escort turn rate (base turn rate of 14 is more in line with escorts 14-17 than cruisers 5-11). Unless a player was used to something really fast like a KDF BoP I don't see how they think its especially slow. Its very similar to the Chimera Destroyer, which is classified as an escort.
    Weird. The level 20-ish Mogai is nowhere near as maneuverable as the Chimera. Maybe it's just subjective, but it just feels slower turning than my Chimera.

    Especially in sector space. If I'm facing away from my destination, it's faster to manually turn around in place before engaging, compared to the half-impulse turn that takes me forever (and sometimes misses the destination entirely!).
    ____
    Keep calm, and continue firing photon torpedoes.
  • reximuzreximuz Member Posts: 1,172 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Low level ships have their sector space speed determined by warp core, and they revamped the scale for LOR, so I don't think maneuverability in sector space is a good comparison between a lvl 50 ship and a lvl 20 ship.

    I flew a Heavy Escort Carrier on my fed toon beforehand, which has a turn rate of 15, and I feel they handle very similarly.
  • marshalericdavidmarshalericdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Wow cant belive people complained about the Mogai turn rate :eek:
  • collegepark2151collegepark2151 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I use the Dhelan almost exclusively because it's one of the two Romulan ships (T'Varo is the other) that is approximately the same size as the other ships in the game. The Mogai (a.k.a. Flying Wing) is almost impossible to get out of traffic around starbases.

    Is it just me or does the playable Mogai seem significantly larger than the NPC versions we saw before LOR came out?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Porthos is not amused.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I use Fleet Dehlan because the Valdore's boff stations are too Tac focus and not enough Sci. Also, the Valdore doesn't make good Torp boat with its lesser turn rate, inertia rating and flight speed compared to the Dehlan. In terms of Shield and Hull, the Valdore is only marginally better. I still get a chuckle when KDF players in their klink ships like to tractor my Dhelan on first sight in Kerrat because I fire only torp. They must mistook the Dehlan for a BoP, boy are they wrong. The Dhelan is very capable of dog fighting it out with escorts and last a long time, unlike the paper hulls of BoP. If you don't use energy weapon, Dhelan is far superior as its console set power is much better than the Valdore's. The Sabotage probe is really OP and all its damage by pass shields 100%.

    Looking at the combat log from a Borg Elite STF, the tact cube took in about 20000 + in critical hull damage from one Sabotage probe while its weapons were disabled.
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    iskandus wrote: »
    I use Fleet Dehlan because the Valdore's boff stations are too Tac focus and not enough Sci. Also, the Valdore doesn't make good Torp boat with its lesser turn rate, inertia rating and flight speed compared to the Dehlan. In terms of Shield and Hull, the Valdore is only marginally better. I still get a chuckle when KDF players in their klink ships like to tractor my Dhelan on first sight in Kerrat because I fire only torp. They must mistook the Dehlan for a BoP, boy are they wrong. The Dhelan is very capable of dog fighting it out with escorts and last a long time, unlike the paper hulls of BoP. If you don't use energy weapon, Dhelan is far superior as its console set power is much better than the Valdore's. The Sabotage probe is really OP and all its damage by pass shields 100%.

    Looking at the combat log from a Borg Elite STF, the tact cube took in about 20000 + in critical hull damage from one Sabotage probe while its weapons were disabled.
    The weapon set bonus for the valdore is good to. Less weapon drain mean more DPS all the time, and the ionized beam can do as much damage as the probe. Not to mention the healing console is simply awesome (I know you can equip it on the Dhelan, but you'll loose one more console slot).
    The turn rate of the mogai is not that bad, at least in pve (I don't play PVP), and perfectly viable for a DHC/torp setup. I don't have hard number, but it seems to be roughly the same than the Akira or the breen ship.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    bluegrassgeek wrote: »
    I think people expect the Mogai to be an escort, rather than a cruiser. That's where the complaints about turn rate come from. My guess is it's the wingspan. People are used to "big wingspan = B'rel" and think that's what they're getting in the Mogai/Valdore.

    The Mogai / Valdore is insanely nimble enough. My goodness, with 6-9 points into Starship Impulse Engines and no RCS Accelerator Consoles or Tachyokinetic Converter, the Mogai can be twitchy and very easy to overcompensate on turns. And that's while out of cloak.

    Short of a Bugship or Klingon BOP, it is one of the smoothest flying ships you can ever have.

    I find these complaints about the Mogai's "poor turn rate" by others to be absolutely hilarious.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • threesnapthreesnap Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    warmaker001b wrote: »
    The Mogai / Valdore is insanely nimble enough. My goodness, with 6-9 points into Starship Impulse Engines and no RCS Accelerator Consoles or Tachyokinetic Converter, the Mogai can be twitchy and very easy to overcompensate on turns. And that's while out of cloak.

    Short of a Bugship or Klingon BOP, it is one of the smoothest flying ships you can ever have.

    I find these complaints about the Mogai's "poor turn rate" by others to be absolutely hilarious.

    When I first asked about being worried about the mogai's turn rate, having never flown it, I was comparing it to my experience with the subcommander moagi. So it could very well just be due to the fact of low skills no consoles at the time that made it feel like a flying brick. Thats's why I really wanted to get everyone's opinion to see if the vice admiral version of the ship was much better to fly.

    And it does sound like it would be. Thanks for everyone's thought's i'll probably pick it up once i get some more c-store credits or maybe just go for the fleet version.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    warmaker001b wrote: »
    The Mogai / Valdore is insanely nimble enough. My goodness, with 6-9 points into Starship Impulse Engines and no RCS Accelerator Consoles or Tachyokinetic Converter, the Mogai can be twitchy and very easy to overcompensate on turns. And that's while out of cloak.

    Short of a Bugship or Klingon BOP, it is one of the smoothest flying ships you can ever have.

    I find these complaints about the Mogai's "poor turn rate" by others to be absolutely hilarious.

    With 6 into SIT, a Tachy and a build that reliably keeps my engine power in the 80-107 range (depending on procs) I've got about a 38 turn rate with a 40-ish speed on my Fleet Valdore. She damn well dances when you need her to.

    Additionally, this is completely anecdotal, but the Mogai's width appears to offset any turn rate issues in the PvE realm. I'm practically shooting DBBs sideways, and DHCs at what appears to be a 60 degree angle of center.
  • cerealplayercerealplayer Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    stirling191 wrote: »
    With 6 into SIT, a Tachy and a build that reliably keeps my engine power in the 80-107 range (depending on procs) I've got about a 38 turn rate with a 40-ish speed on my Fleet Valdore. She damn well dances when you need her to.

    That's a bug. It's getting fixed in the next major patch.
  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,676 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    cerealplayer wrote: »
    That's a bug. It's getting fixed in the next major patch.

    With the changes to SIT skill and the Tachokinetic Converter with LoR and running that high of engine power that seems a reasonable turnrate and speed, pending the engine is chosen well.

    Unless you meant to quote the angle of center mentioned, in which case that does sound like a bug. I've occasionally observed my cannons going off at angles wrong, but for the most part mine seem to be proper 45 degrees.
  • cerealplayercerealplayer Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    No, I meant the turn rate.

    The very high turn rate, as well as the very high hull HP, of the Mogai Retro (fleet) is due to a bug where the ship benefits inordinately from skill points, in particular Starship Impulse Thrusters and Structural Integrity skills. This bug is getting squashed in the next major patch.

    It turns out the Mogai wasn't meant to have better hull than a cruiser, and better turn rate than an escort.
  • commanderkassycommanderkassy Member Posts: 1,005 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    warmaker001b wrote: »
    You're complaining about the turn rate of the Mogai? Are you sure you have the right ship in mind? The Mogai has a turn rate of 14, the highest of any Battlecruiser in the game. It turns better than the Klingon Battlecruisers that have a great reputation as a turning cruiser (their best is the Fleet K'T'Inga; turn rate is 11).

    That's because it's a destroyer.
    ♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
    It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
  • commanderkassycommanderkassy Member Posts: 1,005 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    turalisj89 wrote: »
    I wish you could damage other ships by putting full power to forward shields and ramming them :(

    But, uh, yeah, anyway. Mogai Retrofit. It's totally cool, that's what I'm using right now. I do tend to die several times per elite STF, but that's because I tend to draw aggro like a game developer draws hate mail.

    How are you dying that much?

    If you make the Lt. Universal a Science, the Mogai has an incredibly overpowered (but strange) BO layout. It's console layout is nuts too. It's a true destroyer, being equal parts tank and DPS, and does both quite well. I'm an engineer and therefore get even more tankiness out of this thing. It's very difficult to take down.

    Even after the skill bug fix, I see it retaining quite a bit of tankiness.
    bluegrassgeek wrote: »
    I think people expect the Mogai to be an escort, rather than a cruiser. That's where the complaints about turn rate come from. My guess is it's the wingspan. People are used to "big wingspan = B'rel" and think that's what they're getting in the Mogai/Valdore.

    It's a destroyer.
    reximuz wrote: »
    Its very similar to the Chimera Destroyer, which is classified as an escort.

    The Chimera is not an Escort, it is a Destroyer, and so is the Mogai.

    A Destroyer is a middle ground between cruisers and escorts.
    ♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
    It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
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