Weird. The level 20-ish Mogai is nowhere near as maneuverable as the Chimera. Maybe it's just subjective, but it just feels slower turning than my Chimera.
At max level with an RCS and points in various skills, the Mogai turns on a dime. With Romulan Battle Cloak active, it turns like a Bird of Prey. Should still turn quite well after this skill bug fix that's being mentioned, as I also use the Chimera and Peghqu, which have identical base turn rates, and do just dandy.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
If you make the Lt. Universal a Science, the Mogai has an incredibly overpowered (but strange) BO layout. It's console layout is nuts too. It's a true destroyer, being equal parts tank and DPS, and does both quite well. I'm an engineer and therefore get even more tankiness out of this thing. It's very difficult to take down.
Even after the skill bug fix, I see it retaining quite a bit of tankiness.
I think the Mogai/Valdore is seriously overrated. The BO layout is strange indeed but not good. It has a 4+2 tactical stations, some would say not enough and others say, too many. As it stands, if the ship is fitted with CRF3, its APO is relegated to 1 and unable to fit in HY3. If you want de-emphasize on the tact stations instead, then you are stuck with 1-2 extra slots that you don't know what to do with, as in the case of a Cannon/Beam or Torp boast. I say the fact it can only mount up to 3 slots in Sci stations mean this is an easy ship to cripple. Lack of Commander station for Eng means an Eng will have a tough time making this ship tanky once the hull bug is fixed in the next major patch.
For such a large ship, it has surprisingly little hull integrity vs. the Dhelan, a tiny little bird. Post-bug fix, the difference in hull between the two is less than 3000 points and difference in shield modifier, merely 0.055, which once again, is not very meaningful. What the Dhelan has over the Mogai/Valdore is speed and maneuverability, smaller frame for easier navigation, one more tactical console, higher defense value (+10) and an offensive console that does a ton amount of damage that is 100% shield bleedthrough (sabotage probe).
Tested in Kerrat yesterday, a properly outfitted Dhelan easily took out Klignon carriers in one single pass times after times. Most Klignon ships can't survive past the initial decloaked torpedo alpha. Now this isn't the old BoP alpha, Dhelan is not a BoP and many chose not to use any energy weapon at all. Last weekend, my Dhelan hunt down Minimax in Kerrat like 10+ times in a span of two hours. Minimax got so mad he engaged a private fleet pvp where he ended up dying more than anyone else. But if you were to fly a Mogai/Valdore, it's unlikely you will survive his BoP alpha.
I think the Mogai/Valdore is seriously overrated. The BO layout is strange indeed but not good. It has a 4+2 tactical stations, some would say not enough and others say, too many. As it stands, if the ship is fitted with CRF3, its APO is relegated to 1 and unable to fit in HY3. If you want de-emphasize on the tact stations instead, then you are stuck with 1-2 extra slots that you don't know what to do with, as in the case of a Cannon/Beam or Torp boast. I say the fact it can only mount up to 3 slots in Sci stations mean this is an easy ship to cripple. Lack of Commander station for Eng means an Eng will have a tough time making this ship tanky once the hull bug is fixed in the next major patch.
For such a large ship, it has surprisingly little hull integrity vs. the Dhelan, a tiny little bird. Post-bug fix, the difference in hull between the two is less than 3000 points and difference in shield modifier, merely 0.055, which once again, is not very meaningful. What the Dhelan has over the Mogai/Valdore is speed and maneuverability, smaller frame for easier navigation, one more tactical console, higher defense value (+10) and an offensive console that does a ton amount of damage that is 100% shield bleedthrough (sabotage probe).
Tested in Kerrat yesterday, a properly outfitted Dhelan easily took out Klignon carriers in one single pass times after times. Most Klignon ships can't survive past the initial decloaked torpedo alpha. Now this isn't the old BoP alpha, Dhelan is not a BoP and many chose not to use any energy weapon at all. Last weekend, my Dhelan hunt down Minimax in Kerrat like 10+ times in a span of two hours. Minimax got so mad he engaged a private fleet pvp where he ended up dying more than anyone else. But if you were to fly a Mogai/Valdore, it's unlikely you will survive his BoP alpha.
Wait what? PvP? Who cares? Why would you PvP in a game that has both PvP and PvE? It's impossible to balance. I will keep PvPing in games where it matters, and you can keep TRIBBLE around here waiting for the next PvE thing to TRIBBLE with PvP while it continues to be neglected as a whole
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
I think the Mogai/Valdore is seriously overrated. The BO layout is strange indeed but n higher defense value (+10)
Where is this bonus coming from? The console bonus? If so, then it's a bit of an overstatement. First, the bonus is UP TO 10% depending on speed AFAIK. Second, it comes at the cost of two console slots. Seeing how you only have 5 non tact slots (which should all be used for weapon damage), the opportunity cost of that console-set is almost half your "free" slots.
Or is this bonus coming from elsewhere? Last I read no warbird had the escort defense bonus. Did this change?
Wait what? PvP? Who cares? Why would you PvP in a game that has both PvP and PvE? It's impossible to balance. I will keep PvPing in games where it matters, and you can keep TRIBBLE around here waiting for the next PvE thing to TRIBBLE with PvP while it continues to be neglected as a whole
Wow. Way to straw man his arguments man. He made a few good points: the biggest for me is how the 4+2 tact BOFF layout seems unwieldy. Not enough Tact for a traditional build, too much tact for a A2Bat build. He suggests that choosing the Dehlan instead gives you more than you lose, since the armor/shield differences are negligible, but you get a speedier more nimble ship, better BOFF layout, and one more tact console. Sure, he then ALSO mentions how these benefit PvP, but surely you're not so lacking in imagination that you can't see how it also benefits PvE?
I would like to see you expand on your opinion on how the Mogai BOFF layout is "OP". To my mind the Dehlan's is much superior, but I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Can you engage with Iskandus' arguments?
I would fly and build the Mogai like a Chel'gret. The two are similar in stats and BOff layout anyways. And if I can get performance out of a Mogai like I can a chel'gret, then that is a dangerous ship indeed. Granted the BOff layout of the Mogai is a little... clunky, but it's still very viable.
As for the ship's sprite? All I have to say is fly a Haapex. That is a ship that is almost impossible to move around ESD/Qonos/DS9/Drazona/New Romulus spawns.
I will say this though, you put the Valdore skin on a Fleet Mogai, you have a beautiful ship there that can really REALLY dish out the pain, and take it.
As for the Dehlan? She's a smaller ship, but just as useful. In all honesty with me, it's a toss-up. They are both useful, and both have their uses, if you get my meaning.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I've been using the Fleet Dhelan with the Dhael skin myself. Love that little thing. In all honestly though, I went for it because of the looks. It just looks damn sexy. Also everyone else is either in a Mogai, D'dex, or one of the free RA ships. I like being a semi-unique little snowflake. :P
It does do very well for me in the performance area though. I put Polarize Hull, Haz Emitters 2, and TSS3 in my sci slot (STF junkie lol). Went for TSS3 instead of GW since I seem to pull hate off of everything despite having -TH embassy consoles.
Where is this bonus coming from? The console bonus? If so, then it's a bit of an overstatement. First, the bonus is UP TO 10% depending on speed AFAIK. Second, it comes at the cost of two console slots. Seeing how you only have 5 non tact slots (which should all be used for weapon damage), the opportunity cost of that console-set is almost half your "free" slots.
Or is this bonus coming from elsewhere? Last I read no warbird had the escort defense bonus. Did this change?
The bonus comes from set bonus of its 2 unique consoles : Singularity Inverter and Sabotage Probe.
While technically it's up to 10%, in reality it's always 10% when the ship is moving because the ship is so fast and the requirement to meet the 10% is very low. Not to mention, the set bonus also provides an additional +5 to shield power, which is handy for Romulan ships which tend to be hungry for power.
I understand your concerns about the opportunity cost of equipping universal consoles with long CD as this is a valid point. In my Wells, I do not use any of the Timeship unique consoles precisely due to their long CD and questionable practicality. In the case of the Dhelan, this concern however is negligeable. Singularity Inverter increases both your shield damage resistance and your damage resistance rating by +30 each for 30 seconds, while absorbing the energy weapon fire to build up your Singularity. Its CD is merely 1 minute and 40 sec. In other words, this console can almost perfectly match your Singularity cycle. When it is in effect, escorts will have a very hard time damaging your with energy weapons when used in combination with EptS and/or TSS and high shield power level.
Sabotage probe is a unique weapon that can disable the target's weapon, disrupts its EPS while doing 100% shield bleedthrough to the main target + AOE damage to nearby targets. I have spec such that this weapon can do more damage than a Plasma Energy Bolt hitting a naked hull. The fact it combines both high damage and disable into one weapon makes it unique, plus the probe can't be targeted or destroyed. The downside is its 3 minutes CD, however, it's an acceptable price to pay for such a powerful tool.
Because these two consoles are fairly practical in both pve and pvp, the opportunity cost is acceptably small.
FYI, here are my 10 consoles :
- 5 X Transphasic Compressor Mk XII (very rare)
- Rule 62 Combat Console
- Zero-Point Energy Conduit Console
- Singularity Inverter
- Sabotage Probe
- Open / Floating slot, options include : Isometric Charge, Molecular Phase Inverter, Singularity Stabilizer, Monotanium Alloy Mk XII (very rare), Graviton Pulse, Tachyon Detection Field
Note that I have access to MK XII Embassy science consoles but choose not to use any as none of them represents a must for this build. Things like power insulation and particle generator is always nice to have but they are not essential in this case as my skills in each is already 120 and 115 respectively.
Field Generator console is of questionable practicality on this ship as its shield capacity is far less than Science vessels like Wells and a Dhelan is not meant to engage in prolonged dog fighting. The ideal tactic for this ship, which I employ is to have 3 X Attack Pattern Doff (very rare) cut down APO3 CD such that it's up about 50% of the time. So each offensive pass should last about 15 seconds, timed with APO CD in mind. As a result, the ship is unlikely to be constantly under fire and shouldn't be if the captain knows what he is doing. Therefore, the utility of an expensive Field Generator is questionable.
As for Engineering consoles, no ship can survive a very long time when their shields are down. It doesn't matter how many Neutronium Alloy or Ablative Armor consoles they have on them. The Dhelan with a Sci captain has so many ways of boosting Shield Resistance to energy weapons : Science Fleet, Scattering Field, TSS, EPtS, high shield power level, Singularity Inverter, Quantum Absorption, Molecular Phase Inverter and etc. Its primary defensive should be keeping its shields up and as long as shields are up, the escorts can't do much. With all these options available, Engineering consoles for damage resistance is again nice to have but dispensable.
The ship has a high turn rate such that it doesn't need RCS consoles, so not much of opportunity cost there either.
So after doing the tour of both Sci and Eng consoles slots, as you can see, the opportunity cost assessment was carefully considered and is not really an issue. In fact, the ship still has enough space left for one floating slot to adapt to unique situations.
Comments
At max level with an RCS and points in various skills, the Mogai turns on a dime. With Romulan Battle Cloak active, it turns like a Bird of Prey. Should still turn quite well after this skill bug fix that's being mentioned, as I also use the Chimera and Peghqu, which have identical base turn rates, and do just dandy.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Base on a quick romp through tribble, still getting speeds in the low 30s and turn rates in the 33-35 range. And that's with only a Tachy.
Plenty of zippiness left in the Mogai.
I think the Mogai/Valdore is seriously overrated. The BO layout is strange indeed but not good. It has a 4+2 tactical stations, some would say not enough and others say, too many. As it stands, if the ship is fitted with CRF3, its APO is relegated to 1 and unable to fit in HY3. If you want de-emphasize on the tact stations instead, then you are stuck with 1-2 extra slots that you don't know what to do with, as in the case of a Cannon/Beam or Torp boast. I say the fact it can only mount up to 3 slots in Sci stations mean this is an easy ship to cripple. Lack of Commander station for Eng means an Eng will have a tough time making this ship tanky once the hull bug is fixed in the next major patch.
For such a large ship, it has surprisingly little hull integrity vs. the Dhelan, a tiny little bird. Post-bug fix, the difference in hull between the two is less than 3000 points and difference in shield modifier, merely 0.055, which once again, is not very meaningful. What the Dhelan has over the Mogai/Valdore is speed and maneuverability, smaller frame for easier navigation, one more tactical console, higher defense value (+10) and an offensive console that does a ton amount of damage that is 100% shield bleedthrough (sabotage probe).
Tested in Kerrat yesterday, a properly outfitted Dhelan easily took out Klignon carriers in one single pass times after times. Most Klignon ships can't survive past the initial decloaked torpedo alpha. Now this isn't the old BoP alpha, Dhelan is not a BoP and many chose not to use any energy weapon at all. Last weekend, my Dhelan hunt down Minimax in Kerrat like 10+ times in a span of two hours. Minimax got so mad he engaged a private fleet pvp where he ended up dying more than anyone else. But if you were to fly a Mogai/Valdore, it's unlikely you will survive his BoP alpha.
Wait what? PvP? Who cares? Why would you PvP in a game that has both PvP and PvE? It's impossible to balance. I will keep PvPing in games where it matters, and you can keep TRIBBLE around here waiting for the next PvE thing to TRIBBLE with PvP while it continues to be neglected as a whole
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Where is this bonus coming from? The console bonus? If so, then it's a bit of an overstatement. First, the bonus is UP TO 10% depending on speed AFAIK. Second, it comes at the cost of two console slots. Seeing how you only have 5 non tact slots (which should all be used for weapon damage), the opportunity cost of that console-set is almost half your "free" slots.
Or is this bonus coming from elsewhere? Last I read no warbird had the escort defense bonus. Did this change?
Wow. Way to straw man his arguments man. He made a few good points: the biggest for me is how the 4+2 tact BOFF layout seems unwieldy. Not enough Tact for a traditional build, too much tact for a A2Bat build. He suggests that choosing the Dehlan instead gives you more than you lose, since the armor/shield differences are negligible, but you get a speedier more nimble ship, better BOFF layout, and one more tact console. Sure, he then ALSO mentions how these benefit PvP, but surely you're not so lacking in imagination that you can't see how it also benefits PvE?
I would like to see you expand on your opinion on how the Mogai BOFF layout is "OP". To my mind the Dehlan's is much superior, but I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Can you engage with Iskandus' arguments?
As for the ship's sprite? All I have to say is fly a Haapex. That is a ship that is almost impossible to move around ESD/Qonos/DS9/Drazona/New Romulus spawns.
I will say this though, you put the Valdore skin on a Fleet Mogai, you have a beautiful ship there that can really REALLY dish out the pain, and take it.
As for the Dehlan? She's a smaller ship, but just as useful. In all honesty with me, it's a toss-up. They are both useful, and both have their uses, if you get my meaning.
If the Mogai had a Universal Lt Cmdr, or the Destroyer timeship boff layout, I would be using the Mogai instead...
It does do very well for me in the performance area though. I put Polarize Hull, Haz Emitters 2, and TSS3 in my sci slot (STF junkie lol). Went for TSS3 instead of GW since I seem to pull hate off of everything despite having -TH embassy consoles.
Mine Trap Supporter
The bonus comes from set bonus of its 2 unique consoles : Singularity Inverter and Sabotage Probe.
While technically it's up to 10%, in reality it's always 10% when the ship is moving because the ship is so fast and the requirement to meet the 10% is very low. Not to mention, the set bonus also provides an additional +5 to shield power, which is handy for Romulan ships which tend to be hungry for power.
I understand your concerns about the opportunity cost of equipping universal consoles with long CD as this is a valid point. In my Wells, I do not use any of the Timeship unique consoles precisely due to their long CD and questionable practicality. In the case of the Dhelan, this concern however is negligeable. Singularity Inverter increases both your shield damage resistance and your damage resistance rating by +30 each for 30 seconds, while absorbing the energy weapon fire to build up your Singularity. Its CD is merely 1 minute and 40 sec. In other words, this console can almost perfectly match your Singularity cycle. When it is in effect, escorts will have a very hard time damaging your with energy weapons when used in combination with EptS and/or TSS and high shield power level.
Sabotage probe is a unique weapon that can disable the target's weapon, disrupts its EPS while doing 100% shield bleedthrough to the main target + AOE damage to nearby targets. I have spec such that this weapon can do more damage than a Plasma Energy Bolt hitting a naked hull. The fact it combines both high damage and disable into one weapon makes it unique, plus the probe can't be targeted or destroyed. The downside is its 3 minutes CD, however, it's an acceptable price to pay for such a powerful tool.
Because these two consoles are fairly practical in both pve and pvp, the opportunity cost is acceptably small.
FYI, here are my 10 consoles :
- 5 X Transphasic Compressor Mk XII (very rare)
- Rule 62 Combat Console
- Zero-Point Energy Conduit Console
- Singularity Inverter
- Sabotage Probe
- Open / Floating slot, options include : Isometric Charge, Molecular Phase Inverter, Singularity Stabilizer, Monotanium Alloy Mk XII (very rare), Graviton Pulse, Tachyon Detection Field
Note that I have access to MK XII Embassy science consoles but choose not to use any as none of them represents a must for this build. Things like power insulation and particle generator is always nice to have but they are not essential in this case as my skills in each is already 120 and 115 respectively.
Field Generator console is of questionable practicality on this ship as its shield capacity is far less than Science vessels like Wells and a Dhelan is not meant to engage in prolonged dog fighting. The ideal tactic for this ship, which I employ is to have 3 X Attack Pattern Doff (very rare) cut down APO3 CD such that it's up about 50% of the time. So each offensive pass should last about 15 seconds, timed with APO CD in mind. As a result, the ship is unlikely to be constantly under fire and shouldn't be if the captain knows what he is doing. Therefore, the utility of an expensive Field Generator is questionable.
As for Engineering consoles, no ship can survive a very long time when their shields are down. It doesn't matter how many Neutronium Alloy or Ablative Armor consoles they have on them. The Dhelan with a Sci captain has so many ways of boosting Shield Resistance to energy weapons : Science Fleet, Scattering Field, TSS, EPtS, high shield power level, Singularity Inverter, Quantum Absorption, Molecular Phase Inverter and etc. Its primary defensive should be keeping its shields up and as long as shields are up, the escorts can't do much. With all these options available, Engineering consoles for damage resistance is again nice to have but dispensable.
The ship has a high turn rate such that it doesn't need RCS consoles, so not much of opportunity cost there either.
So after doing the tour of both Sci and Eng consoles slots, as you can see, the opportunity cost assessment was carefully considered and is not really an issue. In fact, the ship still has enough space left for one floating slot to adapt to unique situations.