test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Options
Featured Ships: The D'Deridex and D'ridthau
pwebranflakes
Member Posts: 7,741
These Tier 5 and Tier 4 Battle Cruisers are available to Romulan Vice Admirals and Commanders respectively. Read more about them and purchase them in the Legacy Pack or in-game C-Store today.
Click here to read more.
Click here to read more.
Post edited by pwebranflakes on
0
Comments
"D'DERIDEX! D'DERIDEX! D'DERIDEX!"
Going from the highly maneuverable, Tac heavy T3 Mogai/Valdore to the T4 Eng focused, turns like it's stuck in molasses D'deridex/D'ridthau is one of the most bizarre player experiences in the game.
Don't get me wrong. The big D'd is very playable, provided you're willing to spend every skill point you can in core efficiency, thrusters, and engine performance, slap at least one RCS console on her, purchase the Helmsman space trait from the exchange for 16+ million EC, not use any singularity core abilities in combat so you're getting the full benefit of the excess power to subsystems, and make judicious use of the battle cloak...
My experience has taught me that the D'deridex is a beautiful, but very high maintenance lady.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
thing is the D'D has gotten the same treatment as the fed cruisers
both factions need a little more spring in their cruisers step
they are ships in space, not airplanes
there is no planet gravity under them impeding their movement, things in space can spin in place and dont lose momentum
-General Chang
then you're doing it wrong.
That wasn't all he said...
Remember the I.R.W. M'MERMRIMEFF? :P
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
^ This./10chars
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Actually, gravity works the same in space as it does in an atmosphere. The only difference is that an atmosphere has friction. Case in point, the earth is in space and it is spinning about its axis. The gravitational force from the moon is causing it to spin faster and faster each year. The gravitational force from the Earth keeps the moon from flying off into interstellar space.
Regardless of whether a ship were in an atmosphere or not, regardless of whether a ship were close to a planet or distant from it, angular momentum is still defined the same way and, except in the most extreme circumstances, would still take roughly (to an order of magnitude) the same amount of force to effect a change in the angular momentum. This means that a ship which changes its spin slowly in an atmosphere would change its spin slowly in space as well.
Presumably, the reason that more massive ships can effect changes in their angular momentum more slowly than less massive ships is because the force provided by thrusters does not scale linearly with the mass of the ship.
If fact, since the surface area of a sphere increases r^2 whereas the volume of a sphere increases r^3 and mass is proportional to volume, you can see that more massive objects actually experience relatively less air resistance than less massive objects. So, if turn rates in space were equal, a Galaxy class ship should rotate faster in the atmosphere than a shuttle craft.
Evasive Maneuvers + EPtE + Battle Cloak = it turns so fast you can make yourself dizzy.
But hey, y'all keep spreading the myth the D'deridex sucks. I'll just keep soloing cubes with my hull never below 98%.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
Actually, the moon is slowing down the Earth's rotation. The moon pulls tides on the Earth, Earth rotates a little bit and the moon orbits a little bit. However, the Earth's rotation angular speed is much faster than the moon's revolution angular speed, so the tidal bulge wants to move in front of where it should be. The moons gravity holds it in place, and so the Earth's rotational energy is converted slowly to heat.
The side effect is that the bulge also pulls on the moon asymmetrically, causing it to speed up slightly. This causes the moons orbit to widen and slow back down again, and so take longer. It's a race to see if the Earth's rotation will equal the moon's orbital speed before the moon is ejected. A way to think about it is those black-hole coin donation gravity well thingies - what would happen if a coin was given a small kick of speed?
It won't matter because the sun will expand and claim both before either happens.
Anyways, on the second part of your quote, it does make perfect sense that thruster force scales slower than mass. Mass scales based on the volume of the ship, a ^3 relation. However, thrusters have to be placed on the surface of the ship, which is only a ^2 relation. So doubling a ship's length from 100 to 200 meters would make it 8x heavier, but only 4x as many thrusters. Some of that can be mitigated by making each thruster larger, but there are possibly limits there as well.
Ah yes, I did get that backwards. It is uncertain if the sun will actually consume the Earth or not, but what is certain is that it will likely end all life on the planet.
Also, my assumption is that the spin acceleration is a deliberate design choice, not an example of physics or engineering limitations. Presumably, most of the acceleration is produced by thrusters inside the ships, which makes the size of the opening relatively irrelevant. However, more massive ships have more power and thus can more easily move debris and other ships out of their way using their deflectors, shields, and tractor beams. Smaller ships have to be more maneuverable because they have to make late course corrections to navigate around many objects that do not present a problem for more massive ships.
Additionally, less massive ships have less surface area, which means that things like weapons tend to be designed to be up front, since there is often not room to equip equal fire power to cover 360 degrees of the ship. Therefore, they have to be able to bring their front end around quickly in combat whereas a Galaxy class starship is equally effective from almost all angles.
Finally, the longer a ship is, the more centripetal force is generated near the outer hull and the more power the inertial dampeners need to counteract it. My suspicious is that the Enterprise D can rotate just about as quickly as the Defiant (and we saw it a couple of times on the show), but that it requires massive amounts of energy to be diverted to the structural integrity and internal dampeners, so it is only used when absolutely necessary. Since the ship was not designed with a need to turn rapidly as a combat maneuver given the placement of its weapons (whereas a shuttlecraft or the Defiant was), and since such a maneuver might dramatically reduce shield and weapons power, rapid axial turns are only used when absolutely necessary on large ships.
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm only "complaining" that it is (in my opinion) a dreadful chore to do so.
1) Despite the LoR boost to the way RCS consoles work (in that they are now supposed to be proportionally more beneficial to low-turn rate ships than high-turners), they still do not help that much. 2) What do I expect? From a game that has big ships like the Jem'Hadar HEC (Base Turn rate of I think 13) and the Ha'feh (Base Turn 16)? Size doesn't matter, the gimpy 5.5 turn was arbitrarily applied. The D'deridex (along with other cruisers, like the Galaxy) could be changed to make them more fun (to people like me) with no breakage of "game reality."
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
i realize that making the ships actually behave according to Newtonian mechanics would be bad for general gameplay. like when we throttle off the engines the ship shouldnt slow in open space unless we apply reverse thrust.
i have played a game with newtonian mechanics in space while flying a rocket, it can be a real pain having to always compensate with opposing thrust and turning u end up going in a skewed direction unless u compensate for the existing momentum
but they seem to pick and choose what mechanics to apply where here
even now we can blow a thruster and make the space station spin in place if we wanted. once a thruster is fired the station wont stop turning til they counter with another thruster it wont slow, and if they fire it again it will increase rotational speed.
seemingly this is an era in development where people are able to create massive amounts of power, massive amounts of thrust and speed, manipulate gravity and energy to the point of antigrav and projected energy fields
in the 25th century with all their tech they should be able to make ships in space turn decently without having to have the ship taxi forward like a plane for better turning or fly like an orca in space
and im not going to get into a deep debate on gravity, just to say though gravity in open space vs orbit/in atmosphere is different, yes it is fundamentally the same, but its application is different, u have a strong force being applied in a single direction.
if an airplane was flown in open space it would operate different, without all the banking and such it has to do to change direction while also counter the earths gravity
and take the romulan map where u are defending the city against the war of the worlds walkers
turn thrust off and the shuttle just hovers there, same mechanics as in space
im assuming the reason the shuttle just stays there is antigrav tech
all im saying is in the end when designing a ship, a real federation would know their technology and the mechanics
they wouldnt design ships that cant turn, they would compensate, especially for ships that are operating alone.
even if they made it a bit larger to specifically accommodate extra movement control
especially as large as those ships are, unless they like a lot of empty space in the ship
which actually has been one thing i have despised about trek is how much wasted space there is in the ships, in that regard i think the defiant was more realistic... but this is another topic for another time
i dont expect a D'D or odyssey to handle like an F-18, but in open space and no air resistance, i would expect better, even from larger ships, put that structural integrity system to good use
-General Chang
13.5. I'd be okay with 11. And under cloak, 30.8(!).
A little investment should be expected. My main's gone the whole hog with the right traits, powers and skills, but even with this romulan alt the D'D retrofit's turn is 'good enough'.
Cruisers should have their turn rate floor be 8 or 9, not 5. This would make the range 8-11
Escorts are mostly 14-17
Science are mostly 12-15
So a 8 or 9 -11 range for cruisers wouldn't really be out of line.
Gravity is not any different in space than it is in an atmosphere. It does not cause a spacecraft to behave any differently. The strength of gravity experienced by a spacecraft in low Earth orbit (for instance, where the ISS is and where the Space Shuttle used to travel) is on the same order of magnitude as it is at sea level. It has only decreased by about 10%.
I am not sure where you are getting the idea that gravity in space is different than it is on Earth. Banking is a result of friction forces in a dense atmosphere. It has nothing to do with gravity.
In the game, cruisers turn slowly because, in Trek, they turned slowly. It makes perfect sense. Occasionally in Trek you saw cruisers turning quickly. In STO, if you want your cruiser to turn quickly you can hit evasive maneuvers and aux-to-dampeners and reproduce that effect.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Some don't like it slow. But that is not a reason to use it. Built right and in the hands of a captain that can master it. It can be very deadly.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
is not the galaxy class rather lacking in the fire power dept etc ? , it needs some love tbh
DELTA PRICE RISING
2) Stop caring about turn rates
A two-step guide to Cruiser(bird) happiness.
I agree. You don't need a turn rate if you equip and use it right. I used the older Galaxy at low tier and never had a problem with it. And it has a slow turn rate. So later I won't mind buying a Galaxy-R. Which is like a couple purchases away. Since I was waiting for LOR to come out to see what is added to the store.
Plus you have the battle cloak. So use that as well, since you can turn even better. Use the ship, not try to make it something its not.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
try to be a damage dealer in pvp with beam arrays, watch as they literally do nothing
that console set bonus needs to be giving something like +5 bonus to turn, +2 is next to nothing, when a turn rate isn't considered good till its at about 30.
a fleet ktinga has about a 40 turn rate with 3 turn consoles now, wile a fleet galaxy has about 20 with 5 turn consoles. nothing is more damning then a terrible base turn rate.
LOL - have not seen 1 - not ONE - D'Deridex in PvP - if I did it would be ignored until other weaker targets were destroyed - then it would be vaporized.
It is totally a PvE ship - nothing more - and it's weak at PvE as most PvE is pure DPS - time based.
If I enter a ESTF pug and see more than 2 Big D's - I say CRAPPP - now I have to work 2x as hard
I really want to buy the retrofit - but the turn - just turns me off - somehow if they could make the fleet version 7 I would make my year.
I already have 5 c-store Rommies and 2 fleet rommies - just missing the Big D and the Scimitar
If the Scimitar comes with less than 10 turn I am going to explode - that ship could outflank 2 valdore/mogai - which have a 14 turn - esentially it is a large Mogai - 50% larger or conversely the mogai is 33% smaller.
In STF's, it very likely can outdamage escorts given that it can equip four DHC and four turrets and most STF targets are not very mobile, so it is facile to bring the weapons to bear.
Given the battle cloak, it could be interesting in PvP. You could equip it with cannons or even DHC/DBB and use it as an alpha strike, then cloak when your target gets out of your firing arc. I am uncertain if anyone could do that effectively, but it certainly is an advantage over a Galaxy-X or the various Klingon battle cruisers which get stuck firing turrets once their target outflanks them.
- Supportive Impulse Engine (like the easy to get Breen Supercooled Combat Impulse Engine, or others)
- Supportive Singularity Core (like the Hyper Injection Singularity Core variants)
- Consoles (like RCS Thrusters; Tachyokinetic Converter; Projected Singularity + Molecular Phase Inverter = Console Set Bonus: Enhanced Maneuvering Thrusters Set)
- Skills (like Attack Patterns; Driver Coil; Batteries; Warp Core Efficiency; Impulse Thrusters; Warp Core Pottential; Engine Performance)
- Traits (like Warp Theorist; Helmsman)
- Duty Officers (like Conn Officer; Warp Core Engineer)
- Devices (like Engine Battery; Deuterium Surplus)
- Abilities (like Attack Patterns Alpha & Omega; Auxiliary to Battery; Auxiliary to Dampeners; Battle Cloak; Emergency Power to Engines; Engineering Fleet; EPS Power Transfer; Evasive Maneuvers; Science Fleet; Tactical Initiative)
PS: Some Abilities are class specific, the rest from this list is universally available. This list is not intended to be exhaustive.