Keep in mind that North Korea is also nominally a republic. (Its official name is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.) So I guess D'Tan is our Li'l Kim. :eek:
I see D'tan more as a "counseling elder" for the new senate, not as a dictator (which was btw. originally a "honest job", not negativley connoted!)
Beta, LTA, CE, Multiple preorder Versions, all Addon Packs except AoY, nearly all KDF/Rom and ~50% of all Fedships, over 25 LockboxShips, Endurer of Atari's "Year of Hell", but...
If it was up to me. I'd have D'tan killed and then put New Romulas as forward base for Tal Shiar operations. Now that's truly every Romulan's true legacy.
If it was up to me. I'd have D'tan killed and then put New Romulas as forward base for Tal Shiar operations. Now that's truly every Romulan's true legacy.
It's a good thing it isn't up to you, then. Last thing we need is Iconians getting more patsies, since pretty much everything is getting traced back to them now.
Come on what gave you that Impression, did you get your vice admiral to new Romulus before the expansion came out. What did Obisek say to D'Tan in the introduction scene. If you think he is a dictator then, he would have be playing the Fed and KDF together, but is not and he would have send more republic navy ship to gather the rest of the loose colonies under his Banner Without giving them any choice or what's so ever, oh no he only sent one ship which is your character and what o you character do when they get their. They gave them choices, unlike the T'shair who don't even give that.
"You ask why we give our ships computer normal emotions. Do you really want a warship incapable of loyalty?"
If it was up to me. I'd have D'tan killed and then put New Romulas as forward base for Tal Shiar operations. Now that's truly every Romulan's true legacy.
Ugh, that'd be the only thing more dull than His Presidential Milquetoast.
It's a good thing it isn't up to you, then. Last thing we need is Iconians getting more patsies, since pretty much everything is getting traced back to them now.
Sorry, at first I read that as "pasties"... besides, just what the Tal Shiar needs is a martyr. Better to discredit him by making D'Tan appear as a patsy to the Federaion and Klingons, then install a collaborator as his replacement when he steps down. Or maybe just an Undine doppleganger... we'll just have to see where the Romulan story ends up
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
D'Tan may be devoted to this Unification nonsense, but Centurion Nniol tr'Keiniadh disagrees. He feels that the Sundering happened for good reasons, and that the last thing the Rihannsu need right now is for someone to try to tie them back down to a bunch of insipid logicians. Instead, this second Sundering, from those who would surrender their mnhei'sahe to the ugliness and backstabbing of the Tal Shiar, should be followed through in its entirety. The Romulan Republic should stand proud and apart, working with her allies, relentless against her enemies, and controlled by none but the Rihannsu themselves!
(I swear, give the guy a mug of ale and he just never shuts up about it...)
I would say we're probably over-thinking this just a bit. It's probably a situation similar to the Rebel Alliance from Star Wars, with a nominated leader during the rebellion, and then a full senate after the new government is officially formed.
Mostly because he's been working day and night on the matter-first with the Reunification, then gathering together the Romulan Diaspora, then working with the Klingons and Feds. All this and the Tal Shiar's trying to lean on him.
I'd say he's doing enough of a job to be the head man. Hope he doesn't work himself into ill health.
I think it's just that you never interact with the government beyond D'tan.
Just because you only talk to Admiral Quinn doesn't mean the Federation Council has stopped existing.
Exactly this. It would be nice if they at least hinted at some form of government beyond this one man, but I guess that's time and resources better spent elsewhere.
Well the United Federation of Planets is a republic as well, but I don't remember electing Aennik Okeg as President.
Read the Path to 2409:
Ultimately, Aennik Okeg of Sauria is elected in a close vote over Jaed Maz, with Bajoran Shad Ona in third place. Okeg, the first Saurian ever to hold the Federation presidency, begins his term by offering Maz and Shad places in his cabinet in an effort to promote unity among supporters of his competitors.
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
People's Republic of China
Islamic Republic of Iran
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
Sometimes the "republic" means absolutely nothing in the name.
By the loosest definition, all of those ARE republics. You don't have to be a democracy to be a republic, nor do you have to be even remotely democratic.
By the loosest definition, all of those ARE republics. You don't have to be a democracy to be a republic, nor do you have to be even remotely democratic.
By the actual definition of a Republic they're all Republics.
For those who want to play at amateur political science - the US is not a Democratic Republic, neither are Germany, Brazil or Russia. (Federal Republics, incase you're wondering)
Based on what little we see of the R.R.'s nascent political structure, it's likely a Parliamentary Republic or a Classical Republic.
The point of calling it the Romulan Republic however likely has nothing to do with modern political theory. It's the Romulan Republic, as opposed to the Romulan Empire, because there was a Republic of Rome as well as a Roman Empire (although it preceded that, as opposed to succeeding it) and until Sela takes the throne it's heavily implied that the Romulan Star Empire is functionally or in fact a Classical Republic since the highest political offices we see in the series are that of the Senate members.
An electoral apparatus does not a republic make. Voting does not guarantee limited democracy at all, and something has to limit democracy, or people could vote away their duty to make their wishes known. The only question is if D'Tan can be trusted (yes), and whether he speaks for the interests of the vast majority of Romulan republicans (he does). Ergo, he is not a dictator in the negative sense, but the legitimate agent of the people, a true res publica. But, again, no true limited democracy/republic is founded on the arbitrary will of the majority, but only within an ethical/metaphysical framework. So, even against a corrupt people, the legitimate ruler gets his legitimacy from whether he defends these standards and beliefs (such as upholding self-evident concepts of the right to life, standards of right conduct for the pursuance of just ends, respect for property, etc). Hence, legitimacy from the will of the people is conditional on whether the people are already just and have a good will. This is what it means when it is said that all legitimacy and authority comes from God. We cannot clearly describe our sense of right and wrong, but we know we know it, and this is attributed to the Creator of nature as the necessary terminus of thought, and therefore applies to all rational beings. This is the first point where anarchists err, when they believe that legitimacy simply comes from a majority vote, hence the current chaos in the middle east. This is also the point where the Marxists/determinist/mechanist/some scientists err, when they assert that the majority's will does not matter in the slightest, and that there are no natural rights, only mechanical forces that a few enlightened will control. So, in summary, legitimacy comes from righteousness, not majority, and not on the basis of determinist analysis. The second point where these political schools err is when they ignore the necessity of borders, of a federation of small states as the best means of ensuring local concerns are met, and to uphold the principle of robustness, whereby a strong federation is one in which each member state is strong, for if every state leans on the capital, the capital will simple fall over. This is the principle manner in which democracy must be limited, else the majority in the cities will outweigh the interests of the small farmers on which the entire society ultimately depends. D'Tan, a student of Spock, would fall into the first category above, and regard legitimacy to rest on righteousness, even if only vaguely describable. He furthermore believes in self-evident human rights therefrom, including the defense of all human life and property and the free pursuance of self-interest within this moral framework, including a devotion for federalism, especially for an interstellar government of tremendous scale, for which overcentralization means quick chaos and death (Tal Shiar foolishness). No doubt he attributes these beliefs to the very structure of the universe, and thence to its personal/intelligent Creator as necessary terminus (given that intelligence is a real phenomena, its transcendent cause must be analogous, hence intelligence has an end). On this basis, D'Tan's republic is ethical and teleological, and is therefore legitimate by the traditional definition (as opposed, for example, to anarchism and socialism). D'Tan's goal, therefore, is not a 25th century "Arab Spring", but the establishment of institutions that will make his clear vision the very religion of future Romulan republicans. That is how to found a republic. If you have any historical perspective at all, you must emphatically not immediately start open elections among fundamentally diverse people, or among people whose ethical foundations are antithetical to republicanism. This is why the United States started slowly with a very limited electorate, until all citizens adopted the views of the founders, and increased franchise in a natural progression. However, if you want chaos, mass killings, and ultimate dissolution of the nation, you may, of course, senselessly jump the gun, demand immediate open elections, encourage mass pride and ambition, and utterly doom "New" Romulus in its conception. You'll simply remake the old Star Empire, and memetically seal all subsequent generations of Romulans in the old tradition of perpetual deceit and pettiness.
...Hence, legitimacy from the will of the people is conditional on whether the people are already just and have a good will. This is what it means when it is said that all legitimacy and authority comes from God. We cannot clearly describe our sense of right and wrong, but we know we know it, and this is attributed to the Creator of nature as the necessary terminus of thought, and therefore applies to all rational beings.
...
So, in summary, legitimacy comes from righteousness, not majority, and not on the basis of determinist analysis.
...
D'Tan, a student of Spock, would fall into the first category above, and regard legitimacy to rest on righteousness, even if only vaguely describable. He furthermore believes in self-evident human rights therefrom, including the defense of all human life and property and the free pursuance of self-interest within this moral framework, including a devotion for federalism, especially for an interstellar government of tremendous scale, for which overcentralization means quick chaos and death (Tal Shiar foolishness). No doubt he attributes these beliefs to the very structure of the universe, and thence to its personal/intelligent Creator as necessary terminus (given that intelligence is a real phenomena, its transcendent cause must be analogous, hence intelligence has an end). On this basis, D'Tan's republic is ethical and teleological, and is therefore legitimate by the traditional definition (as opposed, for example, to anarchism and socialism). D'Tan's goal, therefore, is not a 25th century "Arab Spring", but the establishment of institutions that will make his clear vision the very religion of future Romulan republicans.
Wait... are you saying that there is an inherent or universal sense of right and wrong in people, derived from god / the universe's creator? And are you further saying that D'Tan also believes this? And he believes it because intelligence or sentience is somehow a necessary result of god / the creator?
The point of calling it the Romulan Republic however likely has nothing to do with modern political theory. It's the Romulan Republic, as opposed to the Romulan Empire, because there was a Republic of Rome as well as a Roman Empire (although it preceded that, as opposed to succeeding it) and until Sela takes the throne it's heavily implied that the Romulan Star Empire is functionally or in fact a Classical Republic since the highest political offices we see in the series are that of the Senate members.
A lot of the stuff in Road to 2409 sounds more like the end of the Republic than the end of (either half of) the Roman Empire, oddly.
I think we're still in the early stages of the formation of the republic. Your fisrt few tasks in the tutorial is to go around and find Romulan/reman settlements and try to recruit new members into the fold. There's still no organization to any of it yet, with D'Tan trying to pull as many malcontents as possible together and form some semblance of a community.
Eventually, he'll get Obsileck (sp?) and his followers to join up, too.
At the point we're playing the game, the "Republic" is still just a growing, popular movement.
Remember, the US declared independence from England in 1776, won the war in 1781, but didn't elect George Washington as President until 1787. In between we tried the Articles of Confederation and several other ideas for self-rule.
Do really want an episode that tells us about the intricacies of how the Republic is set up, how its leadership is elected etc.?
I mean we saw how...thrilling this stuff worked out in Episode 1.:rolleyes:
D'Tan is Proconsul of the Republic, as such he is the most visible head of state but notably, he is not the head of the military, and is shown only to have nominal say in matters of the Republic's naval forces.
It seems to me he's setting up a separation of powers, with the colonization and settlement of New Romulus falling primarily under his purview, with Obisek in a position of equal stature, governing the Remans and heading military operations.
The Romulans have yet to convene a new senate that we've seen, although this would be pretty cool, it makes sense that D'Tan would be the proconsul of such a body. Meanwhile Obisek would be Praetor, the commander-in-chief of the Republic military. Admiral Kerekek is the next in line, with Commander Tal'Mera heading Republic Intelligence. The Maioris of the various colonies that make up the Republic would form the primary legislative body.
Wait... are you saying that there is an inherent or universal sense of right and wrong in people, derived from god / the universe's creator? And are you further saying that D'Tan also believes this? And he believes it because intelligence or sentience is somehow a necessary result of god / the creator?
Yes he is.
It's a philosophical argument, see Hobbes and Locke (more did get on it).
Do really want an episode that tells us about the intricacies of how the Republic is set up, how its leadership is elected etc.?
I mean we saw how...thrilling this stuff worked out in Episode 1.:rolleyes:
They COULD just make it a place to read in the Command Center, the Romulan Library.
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It's a good thing it isn't up to you, then. Last thing we need is Iconians getting more patsies, since pretty much everything is getting traced back to them now.
Ugh, that'd be the only thing more dull than His Presidential Milquetoast.
Why couldn't it have been Obisek?
Sorry, at first I read that as "pasties"... besides, just what the Tal Shiar needs is a martyr. Better to discredit him by making D'Tan appear as a patsy to the Federaion and Klingons, then install a collaborator as his replacement when he steps down. Or maybe just an Undine doppleganger... we'll just have to see where the Romulan story ends up
(I swear, give the guy a mug of ale and he just never shuts up about it...)
The Democratic People's Republic of New Romulus/N. Korea
People's Republic of New Romulus/China
Romulan Republic of New Romulus/Iran, Pakistan
Republic of New Romulus/Cuba
Socialist Republic of New Romulus/Vietnam
Bolivarian Republic of New Romulus/Venezuela
Democratic Republic of the New Romulus/Congo, Africa
Republic of New Romulus/Nicaragua, Colombia, S. Africa, Zimbabwe etc
Lots of real countries have Republic in the name, but I would not want to live in some of them.
I'd say he's doing enough of a job to be the head man. Hope he doesn't work himself into ill health.
Just because you only talk to Admiral Quinn doesn't mean the Federation Council has stopped existing.
Exactly this. It would be nice if they at least hinted at some form of government beyond this one man, but I guess that's time and resources better spent elsewhere.
People's Republic of China
Islamic Republic of Iran
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
Sometimes the "republic" means absolutely nothing in the name.
True enough. More often than not, true republics rarely name themselves as such.
Read the Path to 2409:
D'eraian Republic of New Romulus.
By the loosest definition, all of those ARE republics. You don't have to be a democracy to be a republic, nor do you have to be even remotely democratic.
By the actual definition of a Republic they're all Republics.
For those who want to play at amateur political science - the US is not a Democratic Republic, neither are Germany, Brazil or Russia. (Federal Republics, incase you're wondering)
Based on what little we see of the R.R.'s nascent political structure, it's likely a Parliamentary Republic or a Classical Republic.
The point of calling it the Romulan Republic however likely has nothing to do with modern political theory. It's the Romulan Republic, as opposed to the Romulan Empire, because there was a Republic of Rome as well as a Roman Empire (although it preceded that, as opposed to succeeding it) and until Sela takes the throne it's heavily implied that the Romulan Star Empire is functionally or in fact a Classical Republic since the highest political offices we see in the series are that of the Senate members.
Wait... are you saying that there is an inherent or universal sense of right and wrong in people, derived from god / the universe's creator? And are you further saying that D'Tan also believes this? And he believes it because intelligence or sentience is somehow a necessary result of god / the creator?
A lot of the stuff in Road to 2409 sounds more like the end of the Republic than the end of (either half of) the Roman Empire, oddly.
Eventually, he'll get Obsileck (sp?) and his followers to join up, too.
At the point we're playing the game, the "Republic" is still just a growing, popular movement.
Remember, the US declared independence from England in 1776, won the war in 1781, but didn't elect George Washington as President until 1787. In between we tried the Articles of Confederation and several other ideas for self-rule.
I mean we saw how...thrilling this stuff worked out in Episode 1.:rolleyes:
It seems to me he's setting up a separation of powers, with the colonization and settlement of New Romulus falling primarily under his purview, with Obisek in a position of equal stature, governing the Remans and heading military operations.
The Romulans have yet to convene a new senate that we've seen, although this would be pretty cool, it makes sense that D'Tan would be the proconsul of such a body. Meanwhile Obisek would be Praetor, the commander-in-chief of the Republic military. Admiral Kerekek is the next in line, with Commander Tal'Mera heading Republic Intelligence. The Maioris of the various colonies that make up the Republic would form the primary legislative body.
Yes he is.
It's a philosophical argument, see Hobbes and Locke (more did get on it).
They COULD just make it a place to read in the Command Center, the Romulan Library.
D'Tan is going to gank the Iconians or ally with them and take over the universe, que the theme.