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Data vs the Voyager EMH, let the debate begin.
hawkwing43
Member Posts: 1,701 Arc User
Ok I was listening to these Trek guys talk on this topic. And the part about emotions came up.
Mainly it was why did it take Data so long to get his emotions, when the Voyager EMH got his emotions very quickly.
Both mainly ran off software, and both are non-living beings.
So............
Lets hear in your mind why the EMH learned how to feel, when Data had to wait on a chip.
Mainly it was why did it take Data so long to get his emotions, when the Voyager EMH got his emotions very quickly.
Both mainly ran off software, and both are non-living beings.
So............
Lets hear in your mind why the EMH learned how to feel, when Data had to wait on a chip.
Post edited by hawkwing43 on
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Yes, the EMH on voyager had the help of the ships computers, but mainly it was the one in the sickbay area. So Data if he was thinking, he too could have do something on that level right?
So over the 20 plus years, data was still stuck in locgic mode, and couldn't get a hold of the concept of emotions, even thought he worked around tons of people who showed them all the time. The Doctor was able to learn how to express his emotions over a very short time, while Data didn't exand on his until he got a new chip installed.
Even Lore showed emotions, and it wasn't explained how he gain emotions while Data didn't. At least I don't remembe rif it was or not.
This, this one sentence answers the whole thread. Lore was 'too perfect', so Dr. Soong made a 'less perfect' android (Data). Later on, Soong made an emotion chip for Data, and when it was installed in Generations, he instantly got emotions.
The Doctor was able to easily expand his "humanity" because he was a hologram run by a starships computer. Data was an independant android that could do anything he wanted. He chose to join Starfleet and explore the galaxy. Data did not have the smug attitude of the Doctor, he saw himself as flawed without the ability to feel emotion.
The Doctor's true struggle was that of gaining independence. First, he was trapped in sick bay. Then, after receiving the mobile emitter, he was treated as a second rate citizen by alien species and the Federation, who refused to acknowledge he was sentient.
Data struggled with emotions because no one could understand or duplicate his positronic brain. He was unique from creation. The Doctor became unique as a result of living, but Data was always one of a kind.
In many ways the Federation hasn't yet caught up to Dr. Soong.
Data was built to be exactly as he was, until the Doctor was ready to give Data the next step. It gave Data a perspective and Wisdom Lore would never acquire.
Data got it on with Tasha Yar and The Borg Queen and was a big enough prick to overwrite B-4's programing with his own just so he could cheat death like a boss.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
LMAO That pretty much nailed it.
And I'm a big fan of Data.
cut right to the heart of the matter, its who would win a logic contest, but the doctor has won against tuvok on numerous occasions with logic and even got him to open up about a few subjects. as far as data is concerned, he is more curious then logic filled although from time to time some of that logic clashed against what data believes to be an emotional response sometimes turns out to be disastrous.
there is no doubting that data would win a math contest or a reactions contest vs the hologram, but the hologram has the advantage of logic over data.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
They are both machines.
They are not alive.
They just run programs.
Sophisticated emulatory programs,
But just programs nonetheless.
But it was established they both are alive. Data was programmed to be self aware and The EMH was left on long enough to become self aware by himself. If anything he was more alive than Data. ( The EMH being a [beep]hole and all tis a human trait :P )
But the EMH in trek lore was not the first Hologram to become self aware.
Data still pwns him though.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
yeah, real impressed...
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
That actually does raise a valid trek lore point. The EMH was newer tech. Starfleet couldn't recreate Data's positronic pathways BUT Starfleet did have a captive Moriarty program to watch and study its would be a no brainer that DR Zimmerman would spy on this chap and duplicate some of his code in the creation of the EMH and you have to remember the Enterprise computer created Moriarty to be more than a match than Data.
If this was the case The EMH could be self aware from the start up. In that way he could be declared Superior to Commander Data.
Also shows you that the Enterprise is a bit of a b?tch >_>
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
Data was not
emotion in a machine is a bad idea (imagine if the ships battle computer decided it didn't like bolians)
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
True, but that was from Locutus and presumably to show the contrast between Picard and Locutus. However, The Borg Queen showed considerable "interest" in Data, but we have no idea if that interest was simply to recover information from him.
Now for the whole EMH VS Data:
Data:
Data was compared to Pinocchio in several different ways throughout the series and movies. Data knew he wanted to be a "real boy" just like Pinocchio, but neither actually knew what that really meant or how to be once it happened. TNG contradicted itself several times because Data did in fact express emotions without the emotion chip albeit from some outside source.
EMH and EMH Mark 2:
The EMH was designed more as an Emergency triage nurse than an actual Doctor in many ways. Obviously Zimmerman's programming was flawed as we later learned, and because of those flaws even if the EMH Mark 1 was kept in service they would have had little to no interaction with the patient because of their lack of bedside manner.
The Doctor became obsessed with what was outside of sickbay and extracurricular activities outside of medicine more so than actually improving his emotional interactions. We also saw numerous occasions where his tampering with fundamental sections of his source code as it were resulted in extreme flaws in his personality matrix.
The EMH Mark 2 (played by Andy ****):
If I were the head of Starfleet medical I would have deemed the Mark 2 just as much of a failure as the Mark 1, except for the exact opposite reason. The Mark 2 showed an almost bipolar personality with extremely overactive emotional responses to even the most minor situations.
The Verdict:
Overall I would conclude that Data would actually win this one. Even without the emotion chip there were times where Data almost exhibited genuine emotional responses without outside interference. One example would be the Episode where Maddox wanted to dissect Data, or where Data Defied Picard to save Sarjenka.
Yup. Its a robot at first you think its human then when it finally does catch Kirk its visor opens up and you see its a bot.
*EDIT*
Actually watching that scene again and looking at pics you can see gas mask style vents on its face http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/d/d1/Police_officer_2240s.jpg BUT the contours of the face is off no nose and stuff so unlikely to be a mask. Might be a flesh and blood human that has some sort of accident and has his "FACE" replaced @__@"
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
WOW. Would hate to be a future cop . They will all have noses like Mike Tyson :<
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
The 2009 Film is targ dung, nothing more or less. It's like STO: Just a special effect/product placement spectacle without any real lore or continuity. I wouldn't think too much about JJ Trek Wars Reloaded
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Meh NuTrek is another universe and its a good sci fi action fic that doesnt effect my enjoyment of TOS. Its the TNG era thats a bit poo , to many carebears :<
Data along with Worf, Q and Seven were the better TNG era characters due to there random acts of BADASSNESS. Data would put logic aside and kick TRIBBLE and TRIBBLE the consequences when needed. He did seem sort of prone to picking people up by the throat @__@"
He's like a cross between Spock and Kirk. Thats whys he is a much better character than EMH.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
Hair??
Picard was a mack who would put it about anytime he got the chance (Vash, Nella Darren, Marta Botanades etc)
Sisko was a pimp who who did all his best work with a shaved head.
Ilia was absolutely stunning and seemed a competent and well-liked officer
All bald...
In conversation to the EMH Mk II, the Doctor commented about having had sexual relations, and when the EMH Mk II began to comment, the Doctor cut him off, saying he made 'an addition' to his programme
But the Doc was too afraid (dare I say impotent) to tell Seven he loved her, except for when he thought his program would decompile.
Afraid? I disagree... As her physician and mentor, he knew his feelings towards her were inappropriate, would not be reciprocated, and would only interfere with their existing status quo. I don't consider that impotency or fear, but respect and knowing the boundaries.
Data only hooked up with Tasha because she was under the influence of an alien virus...
That's no better (in my book) than a sober guy doing his female friend because she's had a skinful and drunkenly comes onto him...
They maintained no relationship afterward, although he (in what could either be described as obsessive or romantic, depending upon one's point of view) retained a holo image of her.
Then there was Data's decidedly unhealthy desire to befriend Artim in Insurrection... I really liked Data as a character, but, that doesn't blind me to some of his more worrying personality traits...
The Doctor ran a simulation in the holodeck confessing his love for Seven and she responded in true holodeck fashion. He then exited the program and decided that the risk was not worth it. His fear of rejection prevented him from saying anything to her.
The Doctor's professionalism never stood in the way of portraying the Voyager crew as a bunch of hologram hating bafoons in his holonovel, which btw totally objectified Seven.
Also, I believe in Tasha's farewell, she expressed affection towards Data, notwithstanding the awkward evening they shared.