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Fleet Transphasic vs. RR Transphasic
buddha1369
Member Posts: 386 Arc User
Title says it all, should I go with fleet ones or Rapid Reload Transphasics? I currently have one Fleet [DMG]x3 [ACC] and two RR's.
Running a Wells btw, torps and full aux.
Running a Wells btw, torps and full aux.
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You are better off skipping fleet ones (unless that's your main option, in which case go with the Acc-heavy ones), and looking at exchange ones with lots of Acc and/or CrtH/CrtD.
Now, are you looking at the Breen Cluster torpedo as well? Because despite the long Cd, it's a very painful weapon in the right hands.
Are you using torpedo DOFFs as well?
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
I don't use the other torps because they are useless in PvP if the player has even one sliver of shield.
I might go back to plasma for LoR, I heard that the embassy consoles were being updated to provide a damage bonus for plasma projectiles. I have three of these consoles so that would be like having a 27%-ish damage bonus. Can anyone confirm this?
I think the most acc modifier you can get on a fleet torp is one. I took a closer look at the RR and It actually has a higher DPS than the fleet, plus innate 20% crit severity and 10% accuracy bonus, even though it doesn't list any modifiers in the name. Oh, and I have three of the old Borg purple projectile doffs.
Sorry for another question, but how do I access the adapted maco? Seems like the engine/deflector would be nice. Or is engine/deflector of the Breen set good for the boost to transphasics?
I love posts like this. Every time I destroy someone in PvP with my transphasics, I tell them that people on the forum say they are TRIBBLE, and ask their thoughts on the matter.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
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I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
Do you use critH with Torp Spread 3?
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Lol
While I might prefer Plasma torps at the moment, I keep a few RR Transphasics on hand for the Mirror event with my Oddy.
It may work on a BoP but I have been up against one of the most brutal setups designed to hit as hard as possible with Transphasics. At its absolute peek damage it managed to deal me just over 20K Hull damage through my shields while I was sitting still and not trying to tank it at all. The problem is 20K is horribly insufficient to kill most ships and if I were actually moving, tanking, and fighting that damage would have been highly reduced. Once you fire you cannot fire again for awhile. In my experience properly built ships, Escorts included, can heal back to 100% full Shield and Hull in the blink of an eye. So if your best attack fails to kill then you will not be successful.
The only Transphasic Torpedoes you should be getting are the Breen Clusters. For 2 of my characters and due to a certain ship build, I have 2 of them (fwd/aft). The regular Transphasic and RRT torps just don't do enough past the shields, despite the devs increasing the damage bleedthrough more than 8 months ago. And if you are fortunate enough to slam those non-Breen Cluster transphasics to an exposed hull, they are utter fail in the damage they do compared to even plain Photon Torps.
I really only have problems with cruisers. My favorite targets are escorts and BoPs. In PvP it is easy to find a weakened escort, hit them with TB3, Tachyon 3, GW3, Torp Spread 2 and Dispersal Pattern Something. Torps hit first, shields drop, and hold them in place while 10 mines close in and teammates help finish them.
Plus with RR and three Purple DOFFs I fire one torp a second, and I almost never have all 3 torps on cooldown at the same time.
Are they that good? What mission are they on again?
cause sometimes its party time!
Fleet over RR, assuming you have 3 purple projectile torpedo doff.
The justification is simple : The damage of Fleet version over RR after factoring the various buff is significant. More importantly, your doff should reduce the recharge of your torpedo such that you are pretty much indifferent with respect to the 2 sec of difference between Fleet and RR. Ideally, your torpedo should fire once per second if at least 2 of the 3 doff proc. If they do, you would of course be better off with higher damage for the same amount of recharge time (aka. 1 second).
DPS on paper can be quite misleading. It's true that RR has a higher DPS on paper but it doesn't mean much in a real battle. For one thing, it's difficult to remain in the same arc for an extended period of time for the higher DPS to make much of a difference. Especially when you are fighting rapid moving escorts or bop. On the other hand, higher base damage is more suitable for higher burst damage. Remember, you usually only have about 5-10 seconds of window to fire at an enemy before they move out of the arc or you do it for them. The higher DPS is only a valid assumption if and only if your weapon arc is on the enemy close to 100% of the time but that's simply not a realistic assumption. Taking it from a Wells captain who uses Transphasic build and whose constant combat speed reaches over 60 and turn rate over 40, chasing the elusive DPS number for our build is a monumental mistake. We are not escorts
Burst damage is critical in STO, hence something like the Ferengi missle launcher looks great on paper but its low damage per shot, despite its high firing rate, never gains much of a favor.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
You may wish to reconsider after seeing these screenshots :
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=143111075
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=142713529
Look at the damage that Iskan put out in these Arena pvp in a Science vessel with only one Tactical station and no APO.
Iskan's total damage output 1,231,538 (2nd link), greater than the total damage of all my 3 other Starfleet teammates combined, in a hard fought win 15-9 over the Klignons. By comparison, again in the 2nd link, Vasily Zaleski, is a Klignon in a bug ship and he managed to score the 2nd highest damage of the 8 players in this match but a very distant 481,313, barely 35% of what Iskan's Transphasic build did. And VZ is a very good pvp player anyone who has bumped into him before but essentially he said during the match that he was doing more healing than damage as his ship was literaly shut down. You want to know what shut him down? He was chased by Iskan all over the map and unable to ccordinate his attack as he was constantly on the defensive because of Iskan's speed and turn rate. Yes, imagine that, a ship that puts the OP bug ship on the defensive, speed wise. VZ got blew up 5 times in the match, responsible for 1/3 of the Klignon defeats, all 5 defeats due to Transphasics.
The problem is not with Transphasic weapons but rather your build and buff appears to be inadequate. Or you could simply be using the wrong ship for it. The transphasic build is a very niche design on the Fed side. We are often mistaken with the Klink BoP who uses an all projectile build under their battle cloak but the truth is we are not alike whatsoever.
More to the point, Transphasic build on the Fed side is limited to a very few number of ships - I can probably count on one hand the number of ships that can make it work. The best ship for it though is still the Wells, without question. If you are using anything besides Wells, then you run a high risk of getting it wrong. Something that is slightly out of balance will expose weakness to your ship design and making it difficult to use in both pve and pvp. However, if you spec it correctly and have the right equipment for it, you become a bug killer and escorts will fear you as so many escorts and countless bug ships that Iskan killed in Kerrat and the Arena / C&H PvP. Put it this way, when spec correctly, no escorts can beat you in 1 vs 1 pvp, it doesn't matter how good they are. It simply hasn't happened yet. You would only be at risk of defeat if being ganged up or when being caught unaware in a decloaked alpha. The numbers don't lie, just look at the screenshots I posted above. When a science vessel out damage a bug ship piloted by a veteran by almost 300% in pvp, you know there is something done right with this build.
The nice thing about Transphasic is that we simply ignore shields, making several of our opponent's boff and captain skills irrelevant. The list includes but not exhaustive :
EPtS
RSP
FBP
TSS
ST
TT
Extend Shields
Miracle Worker
In addition, the current favorite of Elite Fleet Shields is worse off over those who use Adapted MACO or other Tier 5 reputation shields as their shield strength is reduced and reg. rate reduced for a shield that has no ability to adapt or resist Transphasic.
If you use above in your build, suddenly many of your skills are rendered useless and your shield becomes an inferior protection. Any other torp, let that be Quantum or Photon, their damage to shields is easily recovered with any of the above.
So why not use Chroniton? As someone who specialized in Torpedos, let me answer this question with insight. Chroniton is adequate as a stand alone torpedo. When you enhance it with TS or HY, they come far less effective, damage wise, vs. other Torpedo. It's a long standing issue with all torp other than Quantum and Photon however, Chroniton's ability to slow your enemy doesn't compensate for their much weaker damage. Put it this way, if a ship specializes in Chroniton, it will become a specialist in impeding enemies on the battlefield but itself can't kill enemies because its attacks have great difficulty penetrating shields and its bleedthrough damage is negligeable.
To be fair, the BoP attacks using Transphasic relies on stealth. You could have substituted the Transphasic for something else and still make it work due to the Klink's sneaky fire while cloaked attack.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
There are many flaws in your assumptions here, no less than assuming your transphasic firing opponent is a one trick pony. And it almost sounds as though you expect this build to one shot people. Put it this way, a good fight should never be able one shot a smart and competent opponent otherwise the game is out of balanced.
Highlight #1 : "Once you fire you cannot fire again for awhile"
This is totally false. A properly build Transphasic boat can fire up to one volley per second. More often than not, in a chase or an initial alpha attack, the opponent is hit with between 3-5 volleys all at once, some of which may include up to 2 HY3 or TS3. The same tactic employed to quickly fire 2 BO can be used to fire 2 HY3 or TS3, one after another, combined with other torps that will accompany your HY/TS, you can turn around and be ready to fire again. Your enemy will initially have his heal available but because as you can turn around and fire again, he will be damaged again while his heals go into CD. This includes those who have Auxiliary to Structural. As Torps start to take its toll on your opponents, his crew will quickly die off, as do all kinetic based weapon - they kill crew quickly. After a few exchanges, your opponent crew will be pretty much all dead. That's why even those who have Aux to Structural find it harder and harder to heal themselves as their skill CD becomes almost subnuke-like long.
Highlight #2 : "Escorts included, can heal back to 100% full Shield and Hull in the blink of an eye"
Once again, another false statement. Escorts by design have very few spots for shield and hull heals due to the sheer size of their tactical stations. Even if they do spec in to hull heal, the vast majority have only eng or lieutenant stations for heals. Sure, all ships who aren't killed in an alpha has the ability to initially apply a heal but to what extent, it depends on the damage. If they lost 60% of their hull in one attack, it's highly unlikely they can heal all of it instantly. Against a tank it another matter, by definition, a tank should and will be harder to kill but let's not equate an escort to a tank when it comes to heals because they are clearly not equal.
They are from the "Out in the Cold" Breen mission. You can repeat and get multiple issues of it, just like Hargh'Peng Torps.
Get 1 of these and try it out. I promise you, you will look at all other Transphasic Torps in disgust afterwards.
It has a very long cooldown, though, along the lines of Tricobalts. In PVE and PVP, the Breen Clusters are a great "finisher," and mos especially so if the opposition is doing a poor job in taking out fighters, mines, and other small, targetable stuff flying around.
What makes me so bothered about other Transphasic Torpedoes was my experience with them in my KDF B'Rel Torpedo Boat build. My first attempt was with a transphasic torp attack with RR Transphasic and Breen Cluster, back up with Hargh'Peng and Bio-Neural Warhead. Even with APO, KHG 2 piece torp damage bonus, HYT3, Transphasic numbers past the hull were unimpressive. Try it on a Cruiser, and they'll just "LOL" at your Transphasic "attack." But they won't be laughing if your Breen Cluster Torpedo connects.
I also have 3 piece Adapted MACO and run 4 transphasic MKXI very rare tact consoles and to top it off the Rules 62 uni console.
The ship is a beast in PvP.
Fire a cluster plus a TS3 volley and even cruisers QQ. I was even wiping out fully shielded BOP and escorts in one pass.
The trick is to bottom out you weapons and increase shield and engine to it's highest.
Admiral Federation Tactical Corps
>Star Fleet Elite Force< Click if you are ready to boldy go where no one has gone before.
Seek not the final frontier if you fear the unknown. -Admiral Trimen Ranger
How about they complement each other and serve different purposes?
Have you considered perhaps the torpedo is not at fault but your spec? What are your tactical consoles and how many do you have? Why are you mixing Transphasic with Hargh'Peng and Bio-Neural?
You pay for what you get. The HP Torp is a free gimmick for playing the campaign whereas the Romulan Plasma torp requires far more work and grinding. Cryptic is not going to give you a ground shattering weapon for just playing a single episode in the campaign if Fed or for doing one doff mission as a Klink. When you mix this free gimmick with Transphasics, you actually lower the effectiveness of your overall torpedo damage because the two don't belong together. The two make no logical connection with each other. An argument can be made that Chroniton such as Temporal Disruption Device can be mixed with Transphasics, but not everything fit together.
As for the bio-neural warhead, a great weapon but in the wrong place. It doesn't belong to a torpedo boat because this weapon acts more like a moving antiproton satellite turret platform than a torpedo. Its point of defense can be enhanced by Antiproton mag and your weapon power level such that its energy weapon can reach a staggering 2,000+ DPS en route to its target even without any APA or APO buff. On a Torpedo boat, your tactical consoles should be used to enhance torpedo damage and because you lack energy weapon, naturally your weapon power level should be minimized to 25 with no skill points in there. Both of these actions will drastically reduce your bio-neural's point defense damage, making it a far less effective as a moving satellite turret. Properly spec, your bio-neural warhead can score more damage to your target with its energy weapon damage than when it actually hits the target. I have used bio-neural warhead to destroy Aceton Assimilator before, simply by the sheer amount of Antiproton damage it puts out. Because of its shields, Aceton Assmilator can't destroy it with Energy Siphon like it does to other projectiles.
As for Cruisers and tanks, they are indeed harder to kill. Then again, no one should put 6 Transphasic Torp on their ships without anything else. Transphasic Torps and Transphasic Cluster Torp can both be enhanced by the same consoles and equipment, creating great synergy between them. One is rapid firing and can be spread around by boff skills whereas the other acts as your heavy hit. The regular torp can be used as offensive and defensive tool where its TS3 neutralizes enemies mines, torps, fighthers while starting to damage your cruiser opponent. As the cruiser starts to use its healing power, it didn't realize the real killer shows up and because a cruiser tends to be slow and sluggish, it has little means of avoiding the cluster torp. So the cruiser is hit with a big one, it will start to panic. But by then, your torp would already be off their CD, and ready to fire again. After a few exchanges, as the cruiser's crew dwindle and die due to constant kinetic bombardment, its heal will be slowed down to a crawl and its Auxiliary to Structural will be unable to save it, then the end result is always the same = Cruiser blows up in flames with full shields.
Exactly! We tested it against Jem'Hadar Dreadnought armed with its Bug Ship Fighters using the Vesta and the result is the Jem'Hadard Dreadnought died. You can't possibly get a ship that has tougher hull than the Jem Drednought, let alone when it's protected by 4 bug ships but it still died. The pilot is a veteran player and a leader in our fleet who has been with STO since day 1. Plus, you also have the advantage of having an unconventional ship that surprises people. They see your ship and presumes certain things. For one thing, my opponents like to tail follow me except they didn't realize my ship weaponry is actually symmetric, the rear is just as strong as the fore. They run into some nasty surprises when trying to do that, like eating a cluster torp in the face or like a dozen Romulan plasma torp surrounding him yet he keeps flying into them as he tries to pursue me. The element of surpise and sneaky can't be underestimated. Likewise, your escort who uses torp must surprise quite a few people who expects the usual rapid fire cannons but instead get torps in the face.
My B'Rel Torpedo Boat had:
KHG 2 piece bonus with its +25% Torpedo Damage
3 Blue Mk XI Warhead Yield Chambers for general Torp Dmg to boost all torps.
Borg Assimilator, Tachyokinetic Device, Rule 62 universal consoles to boost crits and/or Torp Damage (for the latter).
Full 9 skillpoints into starship weapon training, attack patterns, projectiles weapons, , targeting systems, and the 3 into projectile weapon specialization.
Not a single ounce of points was wasted on Energy Weaponry since the B'Rel Torp Boat is completely committed to Torpedo Attacks and anything to support that. I CAN mix torpedo damage types because the strength of the weapons and the equipment build allows me to do so. Torpedoes actually give you far more freedom to do this than Energy Weapons which penalize you for doing mixing. A strong reason for this capability is the KHG 2 piece bonus.
The ship is completely, and utterly committed to stealthy, torpedo attacks. Clusters, Bio-Neurals hit quite hard with the build, and LOLLINGLY so if they Crit. Hargh'Pengs hit decently hard with down shields, but the real draw is the radiation damage after several seconds of hitting that damage the hull regardless of shield strength... it does hull damage better than non-Breen Cluster Transphasic Torps when bypassing shields. The draw for the Hargh'Pengs is NOT the hull DOT. It's the explosion after several seconds of the torp hitting the ship. I'd rather have a good reliable set of Quantums or even Photons in place of Transphasic or RR-Transphasic Torpedoes.
I have done attack runs with this ship that will take out or bring to its knees a Cruiser in PVP. I can do this with replacing the Transphasic/RRT with Quantums or Photons, but not with the Transphasic/RRT weapons.
I would rather take a Quantum or Photon Heavy Torp Boat to PVP & PVE than I would one that relies on Transphasic / RR-Transphasic Torpedoes. Non-Cluster Transphasic Torps' base damage is the lowest in the game, so even with the boosted bleedthrough damage from 8 or so months ago doesn't mean much. Even with the Breen Set and dedicated Transphasic Damage Consoles, the non-Cluster Transphasic Torps' damage was unimpressive.
When I see transphasic torpedoes come my way in PVP and they aren't Breen Clusters, I disregard the ship firing it as a minimal threat and search for something else that's more dangerous.
Transphasics will definitely seem underwhelming if you attempt to use them as you would Photon or Quantum torpedoes (i.e. waiting for a clear shot at the enemy's unshielded hull). Instead, they are better employed by firing them without regard for the status of the enemy's shields--you will fire them enough more times than Photon or Quantum torpedoes that it will at least partially offset the lower per-hit damage, since a hit getting the 40-odd percent penetration from Transphasics is still a fair sight better than not firing your torpedoes at all (and better than the 10% penetration that Photon and Quantum gets).
That said, you are right that the Hargh'peng deals more damage in the long run even through shields, at least if you are not using HY2/3 and TS2/3. I haven't crunched the actual numbers, but you may also be correct about the Omega torp dealing more damage through shields even with HY/TS (assuming of course that the HY Omega torp is not shot down).
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