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Nerf The Alpha Strike!

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  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Damn you, nerf it all!

    Nerf It All, a Non-profit start up subsidirary of Damn It All owned by meglocorp F*&@ It ALL is not responsible for side effects or irresponsible actions of it users in social settings.
    Any said actions found offensive or otherwise counter to popular belief must be filed with the WGAS committee on ethical play and await revue.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    1) yes we can agree then... every game has DPS classes and DPS builds for the non DPS classes. Its part of the basic mechanics of most MMOs.

    2) no I have no need to protect any personal builds... I have 15+ toons... there not all tacs. there not all in escorts... many of them are burst builds that are NOT in escorts. Crazy right. ;) I have simply explained why you see more escort DPS builds ... its the logical ship to build a burst build in of course. Its the same reason that in most games you see more "rouge" style players then anything else. Yes its the easiest way to do damage... and doing more damage then the other guy is the easiest way to win, right ? ;)

    3) I disagree alpha strike and DHC are not exlusive. Is there plenty of Tac DHC builds of course they are... they are the highest possible dmg cannons... so they tend to get used. It would be like saying in one of those other MMOs... hey Great Sword is OP cause it does more damage then the regular Sword. Most games have draw backs built into the higher dmg weapons. In STO its weapon arc and Proc rates. DHC proc less then other cannons... and have 45 degree arcs. Are they the best choice though on ships that can equip them... if they can turn with them of course they are. Just like most "warrior dps" classes in those other games slot there great swords.

    4) If you are talking about Engi class toons in general... there are plenty of threads talking about how ineffective engi is these days in pvp... everyone is behind some buffs to the engi class to make them more viable in PvP in general... if you are saying that high level pvp is ruled by escorts... your just plain wrong there. These days 2 escorts per team is the max that can be supported... any more and any half decent team will beat them cause frankly they just don't have the support to handle rapid target swaps ect at that point. Frankly the class that really dominates High End PvP is Science... and the ships that dominate those matches are Sci. Sci/Sci is THE pvp class frankly. Not great in PvE but tops in the PvP ring funny isn't it. ;)

    I appreciate your point of view... but I can't remotely agree with it. Frankly as I see it Damage in general in this game is to low... and could use a targeted buff or three. ;)

    All details aside, the real debate here is whether an ALpha STrike is in line with general gameplay standards. I contend it is not. Yet I also concede on many of your points including the potential of Scis. But unless you can show me a "SCi STrike" video that's blows a ship with Borg Invisitorp efficiency, my initial point stands.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited May 2013
    Anyhow, this is growing tiresome. My point back the basics is simply, ALpha STrikes should not happen OR other means of instant kills should exist. i.e. Trico Mine dispersal/etc. NOT "Here is the one and only way to humiliate an opponent instantly!" videos on YouTube. Can we at least agree it's rather unbalanced?

    Then I trust you were objected to the Trico nerf as well? [hate to keep bringing it up but it's a great example of good for me vs good for you] After all, you just needed to shoot down the slow moving mines by targeting them. Right?

    Ahhh, so now we've discovered you true motive. You want tricobalt mines back to the way they were when they could one-shot players and Borg cubes.
  • bleapsbleaps Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    sci's have subnuke, tacs have alpha if anything help the poor engs out

    i told you how to resist the so called "alpha strike"

    all done .....nothing to see here go about your business :D
  • sharxtremesharxtreme Member Posts: 850 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Another case of "nerf everything what kills me".

    Alpha strike kills? woah, what should it do? scratch the shields?

    Yeah, lets say i'm in escort preparing my AP/OP tactic suddenly i got hit by coward subnuke, VM, scramble, AMS, sensor scan and skilled target shields/engines and get tractored, maybe even caught in plasma.
    Next thing you know i'm about to open a topic how SCIs should be nerfed, because they can basically disable my ship in 1 sec.
    And then imagine 2 such SCIs in a team, and even 3 with 2 spike escorts waiting the sign to demolish you.

    So cry or adapt?
    You chose to cry.
    PvP in STO is not hours long borefest of scratching shields(it can be in spam/heal teams with no DPS)- It is quick and efficient. Tac Escort must be quick and efficient otherwise it's of no use and you break the game and THEN you would see various exploits(all can remember broken TB repulsors with maximized Particle gens+consoles and 0 in graviton skill)

    Everyone can also remember that you could kill tac cube and Borg gate instantly(without destroying generators) with TCD.
    Both things were fixed BECAUSE THEY WERE GAME BREAKING ISSUES.

    So, imagine your surprise when in s8 Rom Fleet Mogai or similar battle decloak/Alphas your a**. Cry? Nerf? make it shoot baloons?
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    All details aside, the real debate here is whether an ALpha STrike is in line with general gameplay standards. I contend it is not. Yet I also concede on many of your points including the potential of Scis. But unless you can show me a "SCi STrike" video that's blows a ship with Borg Invisitorp efficiency, my initial point stands.

    Well what is that you want to consider standard ?

    Cruisers circling each other for an hour ?

    I am being serious... with out spike dmg how long do you think PvP matches will last.

    High end games already routinely go 1+ hour in length... and in general that is WITH 2 tac escorts per team.

    If everyone goes back to flying cruisers again this game would just become a bad joke.

    For the sci video... I don't record my game play... my computer isn't that fast and I find posting videos of me beating up on someone dstasteful.... now that I said that I am sure someone has a sci alpha strike vid they could post for you. lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Ok I have to ask now about this trade in program ?

    What are we talking bout... really I want to know this one.

    *insert .jpg of Ackbar: "It's a Trap!!!"*

    Discussion of bugged equipment is likely forbidden on DB's.
    /subtopic
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
  • jermbotjermbot Member Posts: 801 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If your goal is to encourage slower paced combat then we'd also have to look at nerfing heals so a fight could actually end.

    This game lacks mana-bars, after all.
  • gypsyinspacegypsyinspace Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Alpha strike is a common practice in EVE Online and you just need to have strategies to mitigate it.

    Like, don't be in the firing range at all because there's nothing you can do.
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Trics didn't get nerfed for PvP.

    They got nerfed over there use in PvE.

    Seriously I used to go into a ISE in my brel... and one shot gates.

    My record crit was just under 400k... I think it was something like 392,000. lol

    I was honestly able to pull 1,000,000+ in dmg in under 5 seconds.

    That would be why it got fixed. ;)

    Oh please... The post that got them nerfed was in the PvP forums. PVE was just an excuse, after all, who really wants their teammate WEAKER in an STF? Come on.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    *insert .jpg of Ackbar: "It's a Trap!!!"*

    Discussion of bugged equipment is likely forbidden on DB's.
    /subtopic

    not a trap just seriously wondering what trade in vendor there is ?

    Are you refering to the ferengi prototype console vendor ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • lake1771lake1771 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    shin if u wanted to take the vid, I could probably show u a pretty decent sci 'alpha' in my recluse, cant record it myself though.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Assuming the team of Sci/Sci's isn't 100% completely incompetent and running totally bonkers setups, they'll mop the floor with the Tac/Escorts everytime.

    Pretty much this, its hard to out-dps the debuffs scis can stack on you. The best comp is a mix of tacs and scis but scis are absolutely crucial to debuff a mark.
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Sci do have an alpha equivelant... its called Sub Nuke. Frankly its the better skill in PvP.

    IF your talking about a combo of skills to do high dmg ... yep Sci has that to... Subnuke + Sensor Scan. Just as deadly as alpha + attack patterns.

    Sub Nuke + Sensor Scan + Attack pattern Omega / Beta... probaly the best "easy" button in the game.

    Then I'd say prepare for a Sub Nuke or Sensor Scan nerf. Attack Pat won't happen. Either way, show me this combo taking out an Ody in 2-3 seconds like Mr. YouTube did.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Oh please... The post that got them nerfed was in the PvP forums. PVE was just an excuse, after all, who really wants their teammate WEAKER in an STF? Come on.

    Those posters who posted said post where just like you. Pissed at dying to a One Crit them all spamming Tric build so cried for nerfs.
    Why have become that which you despise?
    FLEEEEE FLEEEE I say flee from the NERF DEMONS while you can!!!!!
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • sharxtremesharxtreme Member Posts: 850 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    All details aside, the real debate here is whether an ALpha STrike is in line with general gameplay standards. I contend it is not. Yet I also concede on many of your points including the potential of Scis. But unless you can show me a "SCi STrike" video that's blows a ship with Borg Invisitorp efficiency, my initial point stands.

    I call a joke poster. If you didn't see SCI that can kill ANY ship in the game. you have not played much, or don't have a skilled sci.

    You showed a video with decloaking BoP overloading on unaware ship.
    Do you even know how weak are defenses on that BoP in that moment? any fed/kdf sci in any ship CAN kill same BoP in same time that guy kills ppl without defenses/TT on.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Oh please... The post that got them nerfed was in the PvP forums. PVE was just an excuse, after all, who really wants their teammate WEAKER in an STF? Come on.

    You must be kidding... we complain about it in the PvP forum for MONTHS... basicly since the day it was changed to begin with. lol

    Let me explain to you how it really got fixed... Myself and a handful of Klink brel pilots started spamming it in STFs every day... really I would run like 20+ in an evening... I have mulitple BOP toons and would just spam all 3 of them.

    Before long more people started doing the same thing cause they where watching fully min maxed brels popping gates in under 10s... and cubes even faster... and destroying generators before the transformers where killed. ect

    I know that at least one match I was in I was teamed with a dev... who in zone said something like "holy good lord wth was that"

    Then all of a sudden they noticed our 100+ bug reports and mulitple threads in PvE and PvP and Game play bug sections. ;)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • crusty8maccrusty8mac Member Posts: 1,381 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Watch that video and tell me how TTI/II/& III in any combination would help.

    Thissler is a great pilot. He has a specialized setup, and uses it on the unwary and inattentive. I believe if you asked him yourself that he would tell you that TT1 and manual shield balancing goes a long way toward thwarting his attacks. Even better is TT1 x2.

    When you hear the alpha strike coming - you do listen to cues don't you? - it's time to throw up your TT. Used up your TT? Manual shield distribution and other heals. I've watched all of his videos, and they will reinforce this.
    __________________________________
    STO Forum member since before February 2010.
    STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
    I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    deokkent wrote: »
    Pfft, alpha strike is nothing. The sheer amount of heals and resistances in this game made it a little redundant long ago. A lot of things have to be factored in for the alpha strike to be successful to produce a kill.
    Now if you had called for a sub nuke nerf, that would definitely be something worth a second look.

    #1 Did you even watch the video? Heal is completely irrelevant.

    #2 Defends ALpha STrike; supports Sub-Nuke nerf.... hmm, I'm seeing a pattern here.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Those posters who posted said post where just like you. Pissed at dying to a One Crit them all spamming Tric build so cried for nerfs.
    Why have become that which you despise?
    FLEEEEE FLEEEE I say flee from the NERF DEMONS while you can!!!!!

    lol that is too logical Roach my head is going to explode. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • sharxtremesharxtreme Member Posts: 850 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    After reading more posts I now think thread starter doesn't even realize why that ships in that video died so fast and blames it on alpha strike.

    Nothing to see here.
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    The last one you died in.

    Last one I died in was not an ALpha STrike victim. My win/loss ratio is not even a factor here from my end. You are the one that keeps trying to make it the topic. Which BTW is: whether ALpha STrike is in line with fair gameplay as demonstrated by past nerfs and the TermsOfService that specifically mentions unfair advantages. If an ALpha STrike is unique in it's devastation, it is not.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
  • erockererocker Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Nerf the word "nerf" from the forums.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bleapsbleaps Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Thissler is a great pilot. He has a specialized setup, and uses it on the unwary and inattentive. I believe if you asked him yourself that he would tell you that TT1 and manual shield balancing goes a long way toward thwarting his attacks. Even better is TT1 x2.

    When you hear the alpha strike coming - you do listen to cues don't you? - it's time to throw up your TT. Used up your TT? Manual shield distribution and other heals. I've watched all of his videos, and they will reinforce this.




    (just as a random side note , tac team will not help u at all vs a decloaking alpha strike)


    the Beam overload can hit for 40k + so even if you could transfer all your shield power to 1 side , that side can only hold 1 sides power


    ie if u have 10k each side , u cannot make 1 side 40k .....reverse shield polarity is your only hope OR omega 3 and get out of there stop the overflow but that one is risky




    BORN N RAISED IN KER'RAT .................You learn or you get popped
  • darkfader1988darkfader1988 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    'Alpha Stirke'?"

    Good question, what is it? :)
    MT - Sad Pandas
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    lol that is too logical Roach my head is going to explode. :)

    Hey! I'm guessing the OP wanted his thread on Alpha Striking and its leading to the death of the fun <No idea WTF really going on at this point> in combat due to PvP (again-go figure :P) whines of Nerf so I've recenty died and will do the same (I assume he said damnit at this point) thread of my own (slight pause) against those Alpha striking (I figure curses I can type here) who kill me in Kerrat thread title idead but went with what we have " Nerf The Alpha Strike" ( the capitols means business) title instead.

    So I'm helping.

    Seriuosly the Alpha is old as the virtual dirt ( know because I came in just after the virtual dirt was not but a few weeks old) and has been a dynamic of the game since the Devs played virtual dieties with th code.
    Quite possibly could little be considered being called The Alpha Strike* becuae of the firsat time it was used in PvP....

    " Whats that noise guys??...."
    <beep, ping, ping BURRRRWHHHHHRRRRR .. ding <oh yes the deloaking sound>:D
    "huh?"
    Debris Field.
    Buddies who turns to look
    Debris field.
    Buddies friend just flying up to investigate weird lights in distance..
    Debris field.
    ( saw Black jack do it once in wayback PvP. was one of several ingrained images of PvP I wished I ahd known how to record.)

    Viola, The Alpha Strike*

    The Tric mine thing is a farmer ***** in my opinion in that any who saw it knew beyond a doubt the Crit linked to all spawned Tric mines was out of whack. It made opposition irrelevant. Twas like having a golden plowshare and STO was your endless producing fields.**
    fah.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013

    Heh. Yeah. It's only savior is that it can benefit escorts as well.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Last one I died in was not an ALpha STrike victim. My win/loss ratio is not even a factor here from my end. You are the one that keeps trying to make it the topic. Which BTW is: whether ALpha STrike is in line with fair gameplay as demonstrated by past nerfs and the TermsOfService that specifically mentions unfair advantages. If an ALpha STrike is unique in it's devastation, it is not.

    That doesn't answer the question of what was the last ship you died in (lets say Alpha Strike at this Moment) and its design since that the only way to acertain where the weakness may lie.
    We are most certainly tied to your experience of the offending Alpha Strike as its the only point of view you have given us.

    I have a guess but will hold it for now and wait.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • travelingmastertravelingmaster Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    To the OP: It has been explained repeatedly as to how you fend off an alpha strike. In my experience, there are three straightforward ways to really blunt an alpha strike. . .Tactical Team + EPtS, RSP, or EPtS2/3 and some other big shield defense buff.

    I use similar tactics to Thissler. I attack using BO2 and HY3 quantum torps. Tractor beam to hold target, maybe a doff'd VM1 for good measure, and then let 'em have both barrels. It works about 50% of the time, the rest of the time I maim the opponent's hull because my timing was off or because the Hegh'ta only has 3 tac consoles, or the target just shield-tanks it because he got TT or RSP up in time.

    Nobody competent is taking your 'nerf' suggestion seriously. The devs won't take it seriously. That's because anyone who's a competent player knows how to at least resist an alphastrike. I don't care how many shiny ships you have, they're not an indicator as to whether you're skilled. Any dumbass can be successful in PvE, there's almost no skill required unless you're taking on multiple NPC ships on Elite mission difficulty (and I don't mean STF elite)

    Also, about the Thissler video: If you'll see, Thissler is shooting morons who fight Klingons in PvP while not keeping buffs up all the time. They're not even cycling EPtS or anything. I could blast the TRIBBLE out of them, and I'm not as good as Thissler.

    EDIT: Oh, and if you nerf the alphastrike then you might as well eliminate escorts entirely. That's the only thing escorts do well, with the possible exception of science-heavy escorts like the MVAE.
    My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
  • omegashinzonomegashinzon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    shookyang wrote: »
    Ahhh, so now we've discovered you true motive. You want tricobalt mines back to the way they were when they could one-shot players and Borg cubes.

    No, I don't want use mines nor did I ever. I can wreck a lousy cube in a level 30 sci vessel, why do I care about that? Tricos were just a good example as I mentioned before.

    Now stop trying to turn the discussion into something else "about me".
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
    So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
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