How is this a fix?! Why not just fix the bug they put in the game in the first place? Foundry was working perfect before (Excluding the glitch they built in for a few missions). But if you wanted to you could grind missions all day and earn your dili through hard work. Now.. They do this? I'm very disappointed in the Dev team now. This is just lazy on their part. *writes foundry off* One more for the nerf bucket...
How is this a fix?! Why not just fix the bug they put in the game in the first place? Foundry was working perfect before (Excluding the glitch they built in for a few missions). But if you wanted to you could grind missions all day and earn your dili through hard work. Now.. They do this? I'm very disappointed in the Dev team now. This is just lazy on their part. *writes foundry off* One more for the nerf bucket...
Yeah, I dont see how this is a sploit fix... its just a nerf to grinders, plain and simple. If they wanted to fix the sploit, whatever it does, then address that bug rather than using a sledgehammer to ruin grinding for those who like to do it legitimately.
Well that goes that leveling plan for my Rommy ...
Yes, because leveling is so difficult in this game. Do you really need to be level 50 in 10 minutes? A few days to get to level cap is very generous when it comes to MMO standards.
Joined: January 2010
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
To those that don't know this is how the foundry works. ( in rewards)
There is a automated timer for everyone that utilizes a foundry mission. This timer start the MOMENT you pick up the mission from the foundy list.
The mission only pays max rewards for missions that have a AVERAGE user completion time of 20min +. If this time is twenty min or more then it pays out 1440 dil. + max exp ect.
When you see lower amounts it means you have some that are pounding through a foundry mission at lighting speed just to get the reward and lower the average time for the mission.
These "grinders" that don't understand this concept evidently disqualify the mission for any rewards or lower it extremely.
they kill the mission they enjoy using for a quick grind. This is a pain for foundry creators that put a lot of time into a mission to have it buried in with missions that won't give any reward and then never played. Anyone that has created a foundry mission knows that a "decent" mission can day DAYS to create. To have it put into the boneyard because of grinders by passing the dialog and other emersive elements is quite annoying.
A one hour wrap is no big deal. If your a grinder then you will just have to do something else between missions. And do me a favor que the mission your grinding directly after you play it that way you help keep the time up for those mission and stop TRIBBLE the people that want to take the 50 min to complete it the right way.
Different farming... not EC grinding, which is limited by the daily cooldown on Foundry drops, but Dilithium farming. The method was definitely an exploit, and this change is a direct counter to it.
The recent foundry exploit that allowed multiple missions to be turned in simultaneously was a perhaps the single biggest exploit ever seen in the game. It was inevitable that it was to be stamped down on and stamped down on hard.
Well, still dont see what the exploit was. Did they actually run those missions? How did turning them in at the same time affect the rewards?
What this will do is clear away the leader board of the 1 clicky missions, and discourage the players that specifically search for them from giving foundry authors a 1 star rating without even playing the mission. Hopefully now these people will search out another way of exploiting the game that does not impact upon Foundry authors work.
What? Do you imagine that there's some huge swath of players giving your missions 1 star without playing them just because they arent grinders? That seems a bit... delusional. In any case, who cares? Isnt the "real reward" for creating a foundry mission the experience, the story, and the way it makes you feel?
The real reward for playing a foundry mission is the experience, the story, the way it makes you feel, much like the reward for going to the cinema or watching a good movie. A little dilithium will be gone in a heartbeat but a good story can live with you forever.
Yeah, we're not going to see a feel good forever story in star trek online... ever... so lets just get that out of the way. And really, who are you to tell other people what their motivations for doing what they do should be? That's really arrogant.
Despite the basically community-manager PR spin of your message, this comes up every time the foundry reward system changes. If you (and others like you) are so concerned about the ratings you get, then make better missions that people like to play! If you're getting low scores (and if you are so shallow as to care about that) then there's probably a reason, and it probably isnt because people are starting them, cancelling them, and dropping a 1star bomb on them. There's ancient lessons here: Popularity != Quality. Critical acclaim != Success. Artists have been dealing with this since before cave paintings, so if you havent figured that out, there it is. You cant legislate people's tastes, you cant make them like your work.
In the mean time, live and let live, and stop trying to tell other players how to play the game. It's bad enough when *actual cryptic* devs do it, and that always goes down like a lead balloon.
There are a number of Foundry missions I really like - and think are better (more memorable/feel good) than not only some of the Cryptic missions, but some of the movies (Insurrection, Nemesis) and series (VOYAGER and the warp 10 lizards, etc) episodes....
Pot meet kettle.
Excuse me?
a) I didnt say anything about their quality relative to the other paramount productions, and as far as some eps and the movies you mentioned, I agree. But 50 years from now I wont be telling my grandkids about some foundry mission I played. I *may* mention a true classic like City on the Edge of Forever, but the game isnt set up to allow that sort of storytelling.
b) Even if I did say anything about the relative quality (which I didnt), what does that have to do with not telling people how to play the game?
Well, still dont see what the exploit was. Did they actually run those missions? How did turning them in at the same time affect the rewards?
Players don't turn in foundry missions whenever they choose to do so. They get the rewards at the end, when they complete the mission.
Otherwise, you're asking us to fully explain how an exploit worked. Simply accept our word for it. Players were using this exploit to get ridiculous sums of dilithium in 15-20 minutes, and it was repeatable.
With this change, I have to ask, why not just remove the stupid "qualifying mission" thing? Just have every mission give rewards based on the time required to complete it. We're already capped now at basically an hour's reward per hour (if you play an hour long mission). So what is the risk in just letting all missions automatically qualify?
Interestingly, now a 2 hour mission is sort of on equal footing with a 30 minute mission in terms of Foundry reward provided. Each only provides half the optimal rewards. Of course, with a 30 minute mission you still have another hour and 30 minutes to do other stuff, so it's not exactly equal.
a) I didnt say anything about their quality relative to the other paramount productions, and as far as some eps and the movies you mentioned, I agree. But 50 years from now I wont be telling my grandkids about some foundry mission I played. I *may* mention a true classic like City on the Edge of Forever, but the game isnt set up to allow that sort of storytelling.
b) Even if I did say anything about the relative quality (which I didnt), what does that have to do with not telling people how to play the game?
Pot... meet logical argument?
This is still sort of a young medium. I understand with what you're saying, but I'm not sure that UGC game content couldn't end up becoming a genre in its own right. I'm not saying it will happen in STO though.
I think the biggest problem is that in 50 years you'll still be able to watch the TV show episodes, while it's very unlikely STO will still be up and running.
Otherwise, you're asking us to fully explain how an exploit worked. Simply accept our word for it. Players were using this exploit to get ridiculous sums of dilithium in 15-20 minutes, and it was repeatable.
I'll take your word for it. And.. yes I AM asking how that was reproduceable. That may not be kosher on a public forum, but really, one has to ask, did all these people objecting so strongly to whatever exploit that was... did they all report it?
Security through obscurity is fail... fail... fail... And I'm not advocating the sort of HELLO WORLD type reveals on discovery. Post-mortem discussion of FINDING said exploits in order to prevent future exploits is a noble and, in fact, well funded goal by a few billion dollar companies...
This is still sort of a young medium. I understand with what you're saying, but I'm not sure that UGC game content couldn't end up becoming a genre in its own right. I'm not saying it will happen in STO though.
I think the biggest problem is that in 50 years you'll still be able to watch the TV show episodes, while it's very unlikely STO will still be up and running.
Agree, and agree. I am not sure what will be around in 50 years, since we are approaching one singularity or another... in any case, one can only judge present works by past success. And I hope that in some form, great success ,from whatever medium, is preserved somehow.
Regardless of your desire to know how this worked, discussing the mechanics of an exploit in the forum is a good way to gain an infraction or ban
I'll risk it, thank you very much, mister non-employee.
But good on you for continuing the security through obscurity fallacy.
Ask around? Lol.. do you know how you sound? Don't ask about it! But ask about it in another way! What a hypocrite.
The question stands. How does letting people play how they want to play in any way HURT foundry authors who are unable or unwilling to provide scenarios that:
a) People want to play.
b) People grind to fill an artificial requirement
The answer is... it does NOT hurt foundry authors AT ALL.
What... you're going to stop creating things? Isnt the point the creation? Why do you care how people do things after the fact?
To be perfectly honest here, I want to start out by saying that I've played a foundry series or two by a few of the other posters in this thread. In addition to that, I believe that a couple in here represent some of the best d**n 'user-creators' around. Now then, with that out of the way, honestly, I don't play Foundry Missions for the 'rewards' that I'm given upon completion. To me, the 'reward' is seeing another person's storyline or concept. I've heard of this 'exploit' and I believe I know what you're all talking about in general. Regardless, I can understand using the foundry to try and rack up some Dilithium while having fun, fair enough. What I don't get is how people look at 'User Created Content' and 'Rewards System' and immediately think 'Ka-Ching!'
Granted, it's always going to be a part of human mentality, but with that out of the way, I would like to say that the real motivation for playing Foundry missions should not be about anything 'material'. But instead about enjoying someone else's 'vision'. This subject is too d**n clouded, I say quit worrying about the material 'reward' at the end and just enjoy the d**n missions that your fellow players have created for your enjoyment.
Anyways, that's my spiel, I'll just pack up my 'soapbox' on the matter and leave it at that.
So, people are kind of underselling it here.
The extent of how bad this was.
How it was done, who was doing it, who reported it (en masse), all that ... sorry to say isn't getting discussed.
Your phrase "security through obscurity" was exactly what a whole lot of exploiters were doing. There were entire fleets involved in trying to keep the exploit missions quiet and hidden so Cryptic didn't find them.
Now to the scope of the thing. People were able to get upwards of 100K dilithium in VERY VERY short amounts of time. This was repeatable. So, conceivably people were topping out their dilithium pockets within a day or a couple.
Dilithium trades for Zen.
Zen is bought with real money.
Ergo, anyone who has ever spent a dollar on the game should have been reporting them, and should be angry at the fact that someone was stealing that money.
Your money is part of Cryptic's bottom line.
The exploiters were stealing from that, plain and simple.
It's not about how this hurt the authors.
It was about the fact that some people out there were straight up stealing from the real money this game makes.
You can call them exploiters.
In this case, I call them thieves.
Sorry, that no one is gonna tell you exactly what was happening or how to reproduce it.
Cryptic knows.
They know how to reproduce it.
They don't need all of us armchair Devs trying to solve it in the forums.
They solved it.
So, people are kind of underselling it here.
The extent of how bad this was.
How it was done, who was doing it, who reported it (en masse), all that ... sorry to say isn't getting discussed.
Your phrase "security through obscurity" was exactly what a whole lot of exploiters were doing. There were entire fleets involved in trying to keep the exploit missions quiet and hidden so Cryptic didn't find them.
Now to the scope of the thing. People were able to get upwards of 100K dilithium in VERY VERY short amounts of time. This was repeatable. So, conceivably people were topping out their dilithium pockets within a day or a couple.
Dilithium trades for Zen.
Zen is bought with real money.
Ergo, anyone who has ever spent a dollar on the game should have been reporting them, and should be angry at the fact that someone was stealing that money.
Your money is part of Cryptic's bottom line.
The exploiters were stealing from that, plain and simple.
It's not about how this hurt the authors.
It was about the fact that some people out there were straight up stealing from the real money this game makes.
You can call them exploiters.
In this case, I call them thieves.
Sorry, that no one is gonna tell you exactly what was happening or how to reproduce it.
Cryptic knows.
They know how to reproduce it.
They don't need all of us armchair Devs trying to solve it in the forums.
They solved it.
-Peace
I do Agree with you I only wish they could find another way other than every hour to do another foundry mission. As I sit here now having to wait 30 mins so I can do one in order to get a reward. It is not being done on regular episodes why on Foundry. Please find another way to fix the exploit.
Comments
'Sploiters didn't push the update, cryptic did.
I've never held with the "these people screwed up, so we're punishing you" logic.
Yeah, I dont see how this is a sploit fix... its just a nerf to grinders, plain and simple. If they wanted to fix the sploit, whatever it does, then address that bug rather than using a sledgehammer to ruin grinding for those who like to do it legitimately.
The doors, Mister Scott!
Yes, because leveling is so difficult in this game. Do you really need to be level 50 in 10 minutes? A few days to get to level cap is very generous when it comes to MMO standards.
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
There is a automated timer for everyone that utilizes a foundry mission. This timer start the MOMENT you pick up the mission from the foundy list.
The mission only pays max rewards for missions that have a AVERAGE user completion time of 20min +. If this time is twenty min or more then it pays out 1440 dil. + max exp ect.
When you see lower amounts it means you have some that are pounding through a foundry mission at lighting speed just to get the reward and lower the average time for the mission.
These "grinders" that don't understand this concept evidently disqualify the mission for any rewards or lower it extremely.
they kill the mission they enjoy using for a quick grind. This is a pain for foundry creators that put a lot of time into a mission to have it buried in with missions that won't give any reward and then never played. Anyone that has created a foundry mission knows that a "decent" mission can day DAYS to create. To have it put into the boneyard because of grinders by passing the dialog and other emersive elements is quite annoying.
A one hour wrap is no big deal. If your a grinder then you will just have to do something else between missions. And do me a favor que the mission your grinding directly after you play it that way you help keep the time up for those mission and stop TRIBBLE the people that want to take the 50 min to complete it the right way.
Yes it was defiantly a Dilithium farming Exploit
Well, still dont see what the exploit was. Did they actually run those missions? How did turning them in at the same time affect the rewards?
What? Do you imagine that there's some huge swath of players giving your missions 1 star without playing them just because they arent grinders? That seems a bit... delusional. In any case, who cares? Isnt the "real reward" for creating a foundry mission the experience, the story, and the way it makes you feel?
Yeah, we're not going to see a feel good forever story in star trek online... ever... so lets just get that out of the way. And really, who are you to tell other people what their motivations for doing what they do should be? That's really arrogant.
Despite the basically community-manager PR spin of your message, this comes up every time the foundry reward system changes. If you (and others like you) are so concerned about the ratings you get, then make better missions that people like to play! If you're getting low scores (and if you are so shallow as to care about that) then there's probably a reason, and it probably isnt because people are starting them, cancelling them, and dropping a 1star bomb on them. There's ancient lessons here: Popularity != Quality. Critical acclaim != Success. Artists have been dealing with this since before cave paintings, so if you havent figured that out, there it is. You cant legislate people's tastes, you cant make them like your work.
In the mean time, live and let live, and stop trying to tell other players how to play the game. It's bad enough when *actual cryptic* devs do it, and that always goes down like a lead balloon.
The doors, Mister Scott!
Excuse me?
a) I didnt say anything about their quality relative to the other paramount productions, and as far as some eps and the movies you mentioned, I agree. But 50 years from now I wont be telling my grandkids about some foundry mission I played. I *may* mention a true classic like City on the Edge of Forever, but the game isnt set up to allow that sort of storytelling.
b) Even if I did say anything about the relative quality (which I didnt), what does that have to do with not telling people how to play the game?
Pot... meet logical argument?
The doors, Mister Scott!
Foundry Mission Database
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - Commander Rihan
Players don't turn in foundry missions whenever they choose to do so. They get the rewards at the end, when they complete the mission.
Otherwise, you're asking us to fully explain how an exploit worked. Simply accept our word for it. Players were using this exploit to get ridiculous sums of dilithium in 15-20 minutes, and it was repeatable.
I can't do that anymore.
Interestingly, now a 2 hour mission is sort of on equal footing with a 30 minute mission in terms of Foundry reward provided. Each only provides half the optimal rewards. Of course, with a 30 minute mission you still have another hour and 30 minutes to do other stuff, so it's not exactly equal.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
This is still sort of a young medium. I understand with what you're saying, but I'm not sure that UGC game content couldn't end up becoming a genre in its own right. I'm not saying it will happen in STO though.
I think the biggest problem is that in 50 years you'll still be able to watch the TV show episodes, while it's very unlikely STO will still be up and running.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
I'll take your word for it. And.. yes I AM asking how that was reproduceable. That may not be kosher on a public forum, but really, one has to ask, did all these people objecting so strongly to whatever exploit that was... did they all report it?
Security through obscurity is fail... fail... fail... And I'm not advocating the sort of HELLO WORLD type reveals on discovery. Post-mortem discussion of FINDING said exploits in order to prevent future exploits is a noble and, in fact, well funded goal by a few billion dollar companies...
Agree, and agree. I am not sure what will be around in 50 years, since we are approaching one singularity or another... in any case, one can only judge present works by past success. And I hope that in some form, great success ,from whatever medium, is preserved somehow.
I dont know what straws you think I was grasping at... maybe I missed the message. But you surely missed mine; don't tell players how to play.
I think that should really be addressed to each and every dev and dev-in-training here.
Playas gon'play.
Let them play!
The doors, Mister Scott!
I'll risk it, thank you very much, mister non-employee.
But good on you for continuing the security through obscurity fallacy.
Ask around? Lol.. do you know how you sound? Don't ask about it! But ask about it in another way! What a hypocrite.
The question stands. How does letting people play how they want to play in any way HURT foundry authors who are unable or unwilling to provide scenarios that:
a) People want to play.
b) People grind to fill an artificial requirement
The answer is... it does NOT hurt foundry authors AT ALL.
What... you're going to stop creating things? Isnt the point the creation? Why do you care how people do things after the fact?
The doors, Mister Scott!
Granted, it's always going to be a part of human mentality, but with that out of the way, I would like to say that the real motivation for playing Foundry missions should not be about anything 'material'. But instead about enjoying someone else's 'vision'. This subject is too d**n clouded, I say quit worrying about the material 'reward' at the end and just enjoy the d**n missions that your fellow players have created for your enjoyment.
Anyways, that's my spiel, I'll just pack up my 'soapbox' on the matter and leave it at that.
So, people are kind of underselling it here.
The extent of how bad this was.
How it was done, who was doing it, who reported it (en masse), all that ... sorry to say isn't getting discussed.
Your phrase "security through obscurity" was exactly what a whole lot of exploiters were doing. There were entire fleets involved in trying to keep the exploit missions quiet and hidden so Cryptic didn't find them.
Now to the scope of the thing. People were able to get upwards of 100K dilithium in VERY VERY short amounts of time. This was repeatable. So, conceivably people were topping out their dilithium pockets within a day or a couple.
Dilithium trades for Zen.
Zen is bought with real money.
Ergo, anyone who has ever spent a dollar on the game should have been reporting them, and should be angry at the fact that someone was stealing that money.
Your money is part of Cryptic's bottom line.
The exploiters were stealing from that, plain and simple.
It's not about how this hurt the authors.
It was about the fact that some people out there were straight up stealing from the real money this game makes.
You can call them exploiters.
In this case, I call them thieves.
Sorry, that no one is gonna tell you exactly what was happening or how to reproduce it.
Cryptic knows.
They know how to reproduce it.
They don't need all of us armchair Devs trying to solve it in the forums.
They solved it.
-Peace
Thank you. Mostly just because you responded.
Stiil, no answers.
The conflation between someone asking about what an exploit WAS and stealing is ridiculous at best. Nobody is equating that, nor defending that.
You (the "you") havent answered the question. Is it hurting you, as an author, that someone plays your mission in a way you didnt intend?
The doors, Mister Scott!
They did that is why Kill count is set at default in order to get reward.:D
I do Agree with you I only wish they could find another way other than every hour to do another foundry mission. As I sit here now having to wait 30 mins so I can do one in order to get a reward. It is not being done on regular episodes why on Foundry. Please find another way to fix the exploit.