I don't use it much, I sometimes switch my 3 crit consoles out for the Bortasqu 3 pack set, but that is mainly to use the Autocannon and snare. I deploy the Hoh'sus sometimes but don't pay attention to its dps, it is mostly a diversion as I see lots of players switch targets to it instead of just ignoring it. It may get a few lucky spikes with torps now and then but I don't really notice since my Bortasqu is putting out so much DPS with DHC and autocannon.
If Feds had the option of using the Bort, maybe they would, but that's not a choice. KDF are spoiled with the maneuverability of battle cruisers compared to Fed cruisers, which is why an Oddy is considered a "good" ship while many people consider the Bort to be "bad." It's relative to the other choices. The fact that you do well against Feds by decloaking and alpha striking means that the Bort does what you want it to do, but doesn't say that it does it better than some other KDF ship could.
Given a choice I'd still take a Jem Dread over a Bort any day of the week, but I'm doing PvE and not PvP, so my focus is on steady damage over 5-10 minutes rather than a killing burst. I like being able to set 8 Danubes or 12 Scorpions on my target while I'm wheeling around at full speed beaming it to death.
Actually most are only able to use the bortasqu for massive DPS in PVE rather than PVP since most can't handle using DHC on it in pvp. The Bortasqu is a excellent ship for PVE for sustained DPS, it can just stay on target and constantly fire its DHC without dying or having to evade around, also the command version gets sensor analyisis which leads to focusing more on sustained DPS rather then spike.
In pvp I try to focus a lot on decloaking alpha due to limited mobility so try to end the fight asap, but this ships is still great sustained dps after provided its on target.
As for Bortasqu being bad to other relative choices, the only other 4 tac console KDF battlecruiser is the Fleet Torkhat which I also own. Its a great ship, but doesn't have quite as much dps or alpha strike potential as the Bortasqu, and less flexible boff layout ( this is actually a huge reason why Bortas is also better then other cruisers, best boff layout) Command version gets 4 tac consoles, and sensor analyisis, and tac version gets 5 tac consoles and autocannon, giving both these ships more dps then Torkhat.
Fleet Torkhat is like training wheels for Bortasqu I have no reason to use it anymore so it sits around in shipyard for months now.
Actually most are only able to use the bortasqu for massive DPS in PVE rather than PVP since most can't handle using DHC on it in pvp. The Bortasqu is a excellent ship for PVE for sustained DPS, it can just stay on target and constantly fire its DHC without dying or having to evade around, also the command version gets sensor analyisis which leads to focusing more on sustained DPS rather then spike.
In pvp I try to focus a lot on decloaking alpha due to limited mobility so try to end the fight asap, but this ships is still great sustained dps after provided its on target.
As for Bortasqu being bad to other relative choices, the only other 4 tac console KDF battlecruiser is the Fleet Torkhat which I also own. Its a great ship, but doesn't have quite as much dps or alpha strike potential as the Bortasqu, and less flexible boff layout ( this is actually a huge reason why Bortas is also better then other cruisers, best boff layout) Command version gets 4 tac consoles, and sensor analyisis, and tac version gets 5 tac consoles and autocannon, giving both these ships more dps then Torkhat.
Fleet Torkhat is like training wheels for Bortasqu I have no reason to use it anymore so it sits around in shipyard for months now.
If you don't have the ship, you have no room to even discuss the ship.
Quad Cannons with damage buff of 14.5% deals greater damage any Dual Heavy Cannons, run a parse data program to compare DPS overall. (I did)
DC, don't care for Dual Cannons, I use a Dual Cannon for the sake of torps and fighters.
Beam Arrays work fine when a ship crosses to the aft. More effective than the Turrets in a lot of areas.
HoH'SuS BoP parses out at 10k DPS. from launch to recall.
He is a troll for an intents and purposes, if you don't have the ship, you have no room to even discuss the ship.
Did I in one way at any point discuss the bortasqu in any single way
The **** your talking is unbelievable don't you dare try and take my freedom of speech away from me you little twit
The 14% is on a proc so no they so not do more damage because of the proc as a dhc has the the same proc just not as high plus you won't be able to hit anything so all that damage you think you doing your not
Beam arrays don't work fine simpleton sue to the point your buffing your fore weapons and your rear aren't even being used tell me how this in any way to any same person works fine
Your talking total **** about this hosus pet like show us the figures like people have said or show us a video of this magical pet you own
I had planned to sit back and watch the thread pan out however when someone is calling someone a troll for being fully correct and someone is trying to sell points as being true which are so far off the mark it's hard not to say something
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
I can't think of a single ship that can do what the Bortasqu' can do better.
thats hilarious. every other battle cruiser is better. unfortunately. they can use DHCs, and are perfect for tech doff builds, giving them all the tactical they need to run cannon buffs constantly. and turn well enough to use them easily. maneuverability helps tanking too, distributing damage across multiple shield facings simply by turning. the bortas is a bad battle cruiser, and a bad support ship, to many wasted consoles, it cant hope to use weapons that could really make them hurt.
You know what im sick of this, benovide, lets go i ll be on tomorrow @inputend ill hop in my dread, make you my b****,live stream it, and laugh at your total incompatence.
Once again its "You know, I flew this ship, and I made it rock!" "NO WAI U CAN'T MAK IT ROK TEH SHP IZ BAAAADDDDDD!!!!!!"
Just because you do not like something personally does not make it bad. Just because you can't pilot a ship well enough does not mean the rest of us share the same inability.
Ahhhh... People who think the entire world shares their weaknesses...
Edit: I actually moved from the sci version to the tac version. I was finding I was typically killing things too quickly to get the most out of SA, and the extra burst DPS I could get with the 5th tac console was better. YMMV, depending on what you are fighting.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
i have all the ships.
IMHO, the Botasq is a good ship because it is a heavy hitter but in a fight in ANY GAME you need more than just heaving hitting.
The Oddy is better than the bortasq because it is more agile. Need to turn alot? Saucer separate. What does the Bortasq have? The sub console. Not as good.
The Jem Dread is better than the Bortasq because of the pets. The Bortasq BOP should have been a hanger pet because it is difficult to keep alive. That alone would have saved the bortasq. Just a hanger that is only allowed to deploy BOP's.
But if you need to turn around and fight 5 ships 11k behind you, by the time you turn around to engage them in a bortasq, your BOP is dead.
In the Dread, by the time your have turned around to engage, you may have to deploy more pets but who cares.
Nothing can withstand staying in front of a bortasq. Agreed. But that isn't all a fight is.
You uncloak in front of a Defiant and start wailing on him. "OH NOES" he will say as he polarizes hull goes around you.
Once again its "You know, I flew this ship, and I made it rock!" "NO WAI U CAN'T MAK IT ROK TEH SHP IZ BAAAADDDDDD!!!!!!"
Just because you do not like something personally does not make it bad. Just because you can't pilot a ship well enough does not mean the rest of us share the same inability.
Ahhhh... People who think the entire world shares their weaknesses...
Hi. Welcome. Thanks for the snarky summary of the debate, such as it is, so far.
This has nothing to do with my personal like or dislike of the Bort. I said plainly that the autocannon on decloak is something that no other ship can do, so one point Bort. But that's it. Everything else can be done better with less sacrifice by other ships.
We are here because we're nitpicky min/maxxers. Well, I apologize, I don't mean to speak for everyone, but that's why I'm here. That means I'm going to try to pump the strengths of a ship/build as much as possible while minimizing the weaknesses. This leads to loads of discussions in which the merits of particular tradeoffs are debated.
The Bort can reach a certain level of effectiveness, but other ships can reach this level of strength while having far fewer weaknesses. That's my assertion, but let's talk about what got us here. To test my assertion we need to discuss things like the optimal weapons loadout for a battle cruiser and how it functions on the Bort v. other similar ships. We need to discuss the math behind things like the 3 piece bonus and whether or not it's worth it v. standard consoles like field gens and neuts.
But time and again the OP refuses to deal in reality. I provided the accepted standard (the skillpoint spreadsheet) and he rejected it because it didn't fit with his expected values. There is no way to get to the debate until both sides can agree on what raising a skill level by a certain amount actually does. I'm operating using this community's accepted numeric values. I'm putting it on the OP to back up his assertions that the many people who have accepted these values as being accurate are wrong.
So, again, welcome to the debate and thanks for your summary. Now that you're here, would you like to weigh in on a few of the issues? How about:
-What does +12 to Targeting do for your accuracy? For your crit rate?
-How much benefit does a mk X white photon torpedo actually recieve from a +12 to Projectile Weapon Damage?
-Is this for the most part accurate? If not, what are you finding to be innaccurate?
-Is the Hoh'sus deployable capable of defeating a player ship with a conscious, alert human being at the keyboard? What is the parse value of the pet's quads? One person says 12 dps against Mirandas on normal PvE, another says 10,000 against players running PvP level resists.
These are some of the points being discussed. I try not to let this get personal, in other words I try to let the numbers speak for themselves rather than just say "I'm a vet, shut it noob." But in this case the OP has citing my lack of experience as one reason for refusing to respond to the points raised.
Here's me talking about flying the Bort, I've only chosen this post because you can actually see my name in the quote since it's been archived. The date on that is March, 2012. The OP was posting in March 2013 for advice about buying the Bort. And if you check the actual content of my post and you decide to use it for evil, you have to type "Activate K'Put Maneuver" in zone chat, because I trademarked it and named it after my KDF engineer. I know the Bort, I watched it come squealing into the world and I barreled into the queues with it still covered in afterbirth. It was a sub-par battlecruiser on the day it left spacedock and has only become less relevant in the wake of fleet battlecruisers. Additionally, Quad cannons are poorly designed and have no place in a min/max discussion. Trumpeting the merits of these Z-Store products deserves a debate based in reality so the KDF population spends its money wisely.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
So, you are more about proving the OP wrong then anything...
Carry on...
Edit: For the record, I wasn't really talking about you, just the general tendency for people to call out perfectly functioning ships as useless because they can't make them work.
If you think the Bort is useless, you are wrong. If you want to debate its absolute perfect min/maxing, you can do that with any ship and slant the math in the direction you would like. I know, I can do it too.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
So, you are more about proving the OP wrong then anything...
Carry on...
Edit: For the record, I wasn't really talking about you, just the general tendency for people to call out perfectly functioning ships as useless because they can't make them work.
If you think the Bort is useless, you are wrong. If you want to debate its absolute perfect min/maxing, you can do that with any ship and slant the math in the direction you would like. I know, I can do it too.
It isn't all that fun to play. It is hard to get used to.
It could have been done better.
So, you are more about proving the OP wrong then anything...
Yes, when he's advocating spending $50 based on wildly inaccurate claims. He's claiming that the Hoh'sus does, literally, 1000 times the dps it is capable of. This community is here to support dissemination of accurate information in the absence of things like decent in-game resources or the ability to buy ships on Tribble.
If you think the Bort is useless, you are wrong. If you want to debate its absolute perfect min/maxing, you can do that with any ship and slant the math in the direction you would like. I know, I can do it too.
Please do. Prove that the Bort is a min/maxxers dream. Because those of us who fly red were dreaming of a KDF flagship that really was. If we missed it, please draw my attention to it.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Firstly, for all your obsession on the smallest of DPS stats, you neglect to mention the major difference, tankyness.
You seem to act as tho the tiniest of DPS stat differences completely negate the fact that there ain't no day that your precious Florcha will tank better.
Oppps! "Tanking is useless!!!" No. That is a false concept as well. Take an over geared ship into a weak event and tanking is useless. Take the same ship into a HO or NWS and all that tanking suddenly shines.
Whatever... I'm not looking to change your mind, it was never my goal. You are sure the ship is junk, then to you it is.
And if some fool reads that a Ho'sus does that much its on them if they believe it... lols....
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I figure a well flown dread carrier would out DPS the snot out of a bort. And most other things. That is the nature of carriers. They do whatever damage they are capable of, and then even more on top with pets.
But that dread carrier, for all its size and DPS, is going to blow up first under heavy, sustained fire. All those tac abilities come at a cost.
But... a lobi ship out performing a c-store ship? Who would have thought that? /roll eyes. That is kinda their point, or who would invest what it takes to get one, when for $50 you can just pick up a bort?
That, and to be honest, most people flying a dread carrier are really bad... Like really bad... Like I double their DPS in my Atrox bad... I don't know why really.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Firstly, for all your obsession on the smallest of DPS stats, you neglect to mention the major difference, tankyness.
You seem to act as tho the tiniest of DPS stat differences completely negate the fact that there ain't no day that your precious Florcha will tank better.
Oppps! "Tanking is useless!!!" No. That is a false concept as well. Take an over geared ship into a weak event and tanking is useless. Take the same ship into a HO or NWS and all that tanking suddenly shines.
Whatever... I'm not looking to change your mind, it was never my goal. You are sure the ship is junk, then to you it is.
And if some fool reads that a Ho'sus does that much its on them if they believe it... lols....
First the quote response:
To be honest, and it may be a case of just plain blindness on my part, I haven't noticed anyone mentioning the tanking side of the bort.
Now the general response:
I have noticed some people posting about how their bort can destroy jem dreads, and oddy's, amongst other ships with, on one occasion, mixed weapon types on a very slow turning ship. If those statements are true, more power to them, but enlighten us as to ~How Exactly~ this is being done. Don't just spout math, provide some kind of proof in the shape of parse logs, videos, your skill layout, and anything else that is factual, concise, and clearly beyond a doubt proof of what is being claimed.
If this is done, then everyone will be able to see that those bort flagships they have collecting dust in space dock may actually be useful, and pull them out, which in turn would cause us to say "hey, the bort is actually a really good ship, you should buy it" to new players on the kdf side.
I have the bort, I did purchase the 3 pack, I find the consoles to be fun, with the auto cannon being the best, the snare is not so useful, and the pet is really a joke that doesn't deal out all that much dmg, and is often dead within seconds of it's alpha strike going off, mind you, this is in pve, not pvp.
As a request, please refrain from attempting to insult mine or anyone else intelligence just because my/their views and opinions do not match your own.
Finally my opinion:
The bortas is a good tanking ship, 1 of the best that I have obtained and tested to date, provided it's fitted with beams, the consoles are fun gimmicks, but often not all that practical in the grand scheme of things. The bortas also suffers badly on turn rate, making it unwise to fit it with dual cannons or dual heavy cannons unless you can predict exactly where your target is going to be, and where it's going to try to get to.
The Ho Sus pet is at best a distraction, and at worst a wasted console slot, I have it equipped to help with the turn rate of the ship, but in all honesty, I still like my vor'cha retrofit over the bort.
As for the jem dread, no I don't have one, and after a long self only debate over the paper stats of the dread and the recluse, i opted to get the recluse, which i had a lot of fun flying for a time,before getting back into the vo'quv.
I personally feel the vo'quv with the advanced bops (or fleet ones if you can grab them) is actually a better option kdf side for a carrier
You seem to act as tho the tiniest of DPS stat differences completely negate the fact that there ain't no day that your precious Florcha will tank better.
Bortasqu' Command vs. Tor'Kaht
+3900 Hull
-0.1 Shield Modifier
-4.5 Turn
-12 Inertia
+10 Shield Power
-10 Engine Power
Bortasqu' Command X, X X, X, X, X X, X X, X, X
X
Tor'Kaht X, X, X
X, X X, X, X, X
X X, X
Er...so how exactly do you have the Bort tanking better?
Firstly, for all your obsession on the smallest of DPS stats, you neglect to mention the major difference, tankyness.
You seem to act as tho the tiniest of DPS stat differences completely negate the fact that there ain't no day that your precious Florcha will tank better.
Oppps! "Tanking is useless!!!" No. That is a false concept as well. Take an over geared ship into a weak event and tanking is useless. Take the same ship into a HO or NWS and all that tanking suddenly shines.
Whatever... I'm not looking to change your mind, it was never my goal. You are sure the ship is junk, then to you it is.
And if some fool reads that a Ho'sus does that much its on them if they believe it... lols....
Tankyness? Ok, lets. Fleet Battlecruisers have +.1 shield mod over the Bort. You're going to have to argue that the 600 more hull over a Fleet Negh makes up for the lower shield mod and inability to maneuver to a more favorable position due to a rubbish turn and inertia.
"Event"? Look, there's no way to say this without coming off as an elitist prick, so I won't beat around the bush: PvE can be completed with nearly any build. There's no need to min/max for PvE.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Saying a ship is useless because its not good for PvP is really stacking the deck. Damn near 90% of the game is not good for PvP. Most people don't PvP, either. Hell she could be a total waste in PvP. Me and most of the population really don't care. Most ships, gear, and setup are a total waste in PvP. Saying something is bad for PvP is like saying the sky is blue.
If you want a PvP ship, maybe look at the PvP forums... with the handful of people who honestly care about PvP.
Tor'Khat Vs Bort tanking? While I have no doubt a Florcha can tank, it will not tank better then a Bort geared and specced to do so, not with the Bort using its unis for tanking. The bort will be able to recover from more hits faster, where the florcha would have had to tucked tail and ran.
Fleet Negh? Yup, I'd say she tanks better. But she won't out DPS her. That is kinda the point... All those unis and 3 versions? She is supposed to be a jack of all trades.
To me its another case of people trying to turn the ship into something its not. She is big, she is slow, and she is versatile. Of course ships that are dedicated to specific functions are better at those functions. That does not make a ship useless... which is all I said at the outset.
You can have your ship measuring contest, I could care less, but I find it funny when people say a ship is useless when its not. To me it shows they don't know how to fly it.
Edit: The ship you all should be pointing out is the Fleet Kamarang? Hell I don't remember its name... the KDF ambassador clone... /drool...
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Getting out from under guns is not tanking, its kiting.
The Bort excels at taking the hit, smiling, going back up to full health, saying can I have another, and doing it again.
Both are effective, but have a different feel.
Pick your poison. I like both, I don't disparage your opinion, I just happen to also like the other.
Edit: And I'm not sure if you are insinuating it can't, but I can easily solo a cube with my bort... and just about any other ship really... They aren't that hard you just have to keep on your toes.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Bortas vs Bug Dread, I do not know which is better and frankly I do not care. Why because of the poor turn rate. (Mirror)Vo'Quv, Kar'fi and Tholian Recluse are better carrier choices for me, when it comes to poor turn rate, why because of the pets and boff layout. (I did not understand how a battle cruiser and a carrier are compared)
Bortas vs Tor'Kaht or Fleet Negh'Var is a different story.
Bortas suffers from poor turn rate. That 5.5 is a death sentence. As for tanking Bortas has a higher hull, the others better shield modifier, hence no significant difference.
The 2 fleet ships can use effectively DHC due to the turn rate, paired with 1 or 2 RCS consoles, even in PVP.
As for why people do not pvp, pvp requires to optimize your ship to the limit and make it viable. You have to tank better than in pve and you have to output more damage than in pve as well.
I have seen many people pvp in a Bortas but none of them used DHC, hence they cannot output more damage than someone that uses a DHC Tor'Kaht build. In pve less moving around is required but still if you are more agile your are more efficient, always damage wise.(if it takes more time to turn 180 degrees to face your opponent, your contribution to damage is less than a teammate that has already turned and started firing)
Bortas is not a bad ship, not in pve not in pvp. It needs to equipped and used right. Is it inferior to the Tor'Kaht. Damage wise yes. I cannot say for the fleet Negh'Var because my fleet is not there yet. However, when it available I will try it.
Now for the cost. Bortas costs only 500 zen more than the Fleet Version of the aforementioned Battle Cruisers. What you get for that is simple a fancy console with a long cool down. The Disruptor Autocannon might be great console, but if you slot all 3 you loose either armor consoles or tactical consoles. Hence, on the big picture you lose more than it is offered.
Personally I was thinking of buying a Bortas(3 pack), but then I decided that it better to spend 100m EC for a Galor if I have to use beams.
Hrmmm, yeah - if the "tanking" thing means sitting there and just taking it - the Bort would have the edge with possible BOFF layout, the +10 Shield Power, and initial ~4k base hull more. If you add movement into it (which I'm not sure why you wouldn't), the additional avoidance (avoidance > mitigation: avoidance = 100% mitigation), the ability to deliver more damage, etc, etc, etc - would put the Tor ahead.
As for the K'Maj (Fleet Kamarag Retro) - yeah, that's definitely on the radar - the Kamarag's a blast to fly compared to the Vor'cha Retro/Mirror Vor'cha.
Saying a ship is useless because its not good for PvP is really stacking the deck. Damn near 90% of the game is not good for PvP. Most people don't PvP, either. Hell she could be a total waste in PvP. Me and most of the population really don't care. Most ships, gear, and setup are a total waste in PvP. Saying something is bad for PvP is like saying the sky is blue.
If you want a PvP ship, maybe look at the PvP forums... with the handful of people who honestly care about PvP.
OK gonna try to keep it civil. It's larger than a handful of people who care about PvP. It's anybody who likes a challenge. PvE content is like tying your shoes. After the learning curve it's routine. But that's neither here nor there. What is relevant to this discussion, and this thread, is PvP because that's what the OP brought up and made claims about.
You've made multiple posts now which have opinions on the role of the Bort, that it's better than other ships in specific ways. Please support your assertions with example builds, math, parses, etc. Thanks.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Here's a little fact, there isn't a single ship in the game that can out DPS a Bort Tactical Cruiser with all 3 mods + 5 weapon energy boosters.
Ask me how this is fact.
Because the ship description compared to even a Fed Escort, or Kling BoP, factored in with the +12 Energy Weapons Specialization, And the Accuracy Buff.
You'll soon figure out fast why it's the highest DPS ship in the game for a Tac. Add that to a Rom Bridge Officer, and cloak alpha. There isn't a single ship in this entire game that can out DPS the Bort Tactical Cruiser with the 5 Tactical Console Slots, and everything else on it.
Cost math for an LTS:
stipend for an LTS is 500 zen a month.
Price of a Fleet Module: 500 Zen per.
where this matters?
Bortasque (Single ship version): 2500 zen
Fleet Tor'Khat: 4 FM or 2000 zen from a fleet with a T3 shipyard.
at 500 zen/month stipend:
4 months to a Fleet Tor'khat.
5 months to a single-model Bortasque.
10 months for the Bort 3-pack.
What you get for your value:
A Tor'Kaht can do STF, PVE content, and is effective at PVP, and can just about almost match the Bort's DPS in both event types.
The Bort gets a big, honkin' gun, high POTENTIAL DPS, Higher hull, but sacrifices everything for high hull and its high potential (not actual, think "net" vs. "gross" values here) DPS, especially it sacrifices turn rate, which is necessary because of the firing arcs for it's main gun in a DPS configuration.
I, too have seen Borts that were effective (or at least, not a crippling liability) in PvP matches-though the ones I've mostly seen were using mixed single cannon/beam/torp layouts and at least ONE that was a single-cannons build similar to some of the "DPS Cruiser" advice threads you see in PvP and Fedside, where you see builds running DBB and Single cannons forward, and Turrets aft. BUT...
They're not as effective as a Vorcha-R or Tor'Kaht in the role, and it goes straight to that turn rate issue as to 'why' they aren't.
Now, mind you, if I pug an Arena, and there's a Bortasque on the team, I know what my mission is:
Cover his flanks.
Because fedScorts WILL try to get into a Bort's rear, and it's JUST tough enough that when they do, they usually have their OWN rears to me (and to stay on their target, they're usually running low on the engine power to avoid overshooting). A Decloak-Alpha from a BoP running disruptors with the right combos is very useful for keeping my big buddy alive to wrestle his way to a targeting solution.
it's jsut that, see, I run Raiders by preference, and Escort is a Raptor job.
Subspace Snare, and Subspace Jump help dramatically for a bort being ganked by an Escort.
Here's a little fact, there isn't a single ship in the game that can out DPS a Bort Tactical Cruiser with all 3 mods + 5 weapon energy boosters.
Ask me how this is fact.
Because the ship description compared to even a Fed Escort, or Kling BoP, factored in with the +12 Energy Weapons Specialization, And the Accuracy Buff.
You'll soon figure out fast why it's the highest DPS ship in the game for a Tac. Add that to a Rom Bridge Officer, and cloak alpha. There isn't a single ship in this entire game that can out DPS the Bort Tactical Cruiser with the 5 Tactical Console Slots, and everything else on it.
Well its one thing when you are defending aspects of your favorite ship but when you start lying you're just going to make it hard on yourself. There are plenty of ships that can out dps a bortasqu like the kumari the Bug and many escorts and really anything with a Cmdr TAC slot and higher turn rate.
Comments
I don't use it much, I sometimes switch my 3 crit consoles out for the Bortasqu 3 pack set, but that is mainly to use the Autocannon and snare. I deploy the Hoh'sus sometimes but don't pay attention to its dps, it is mostly a diversion as I see lots of players switch targets to it instead of just ignoring it. It may get a few lucky spikes with torps now and then but I don't really notice since my Bortasqu is putting out so much DPS with DHC and autocannon.
Actually most are only able to use the bortasqu for massive DPS in PVE rather than PVP since most can't handle using DHC on it in pvp. The Bortasqu is a excellent ship for PVE for sustained DPS, it can just stay on target and constantly fire its DHC without dying or having to evade around, also the command version gets sensor analyisis which leads to focusing more on sustained DPS rather then spike.
In pvp I try to focus a lot on decloaking alpha due to limited mobility so try to end the fight asap, but this ships is still great sustained dps after provided its on target.
As for Bortasqu being bad to other relative choices, the only other 4 tac console KDF battlecruiser is the Fleet Torkhat which I also own. Its a great ship, but doesn't have quite as much dps or alpha strike potential as the Bortasqu, and less flexible boff layout ( this is actually a huge reason why Bortas is also better then other cruisers, best boff layout) Command version gets 4 tac consoles, and sensor analyisis, and tac version gets 5 tac consoles and autocannon, giving both these ships more dps then Torkhat.
Fleet Torkhat is like training wheels for Bortasqu I have no reason to use it anymore so it sits around in shipyard for months now.
I agree 100%
Did I in one way at any point discuss the bortasqu in any single way
The **** your talking is unbelievable don't you dare try and take my freedom of speech away from me you little twit
The 14% is on a proc so no they so not do more damage because of the proc as a dhc has the the same proc just not as high plus you won't be able to hit anything so all that damage you think you doing your not
Beam arrays don't work fine simpleton sue to the point your buffing your fore weapons and your rear aren't even being used tell me how this in any way to any same person works fine
Your talking total **** about this hosus pet like show us the figures like people have said or show us a video of this magical pet you own
I had planned to sit back and watch the thread pan out however when someone is calling someone a troll for being fully correct and someone is trying to sell points as being true which are so far off the mark it's hard not to say something
thats hilarious. every other battle cruiser is better. unfortunately. they can use DHCs, and are perfect for tech doff builds, giving them all the tactical they need to run cannon buffs constantly. and turn well enough to use them easily. maneuverability helps tanking too, distributing damage across multiple shield facings simply by turning. the bortas is a bad battle cruiser, and a bad support ship, to many wasted consoles, it cant hope to use weapons that could really make them hurt.
Once again its "You know, I flew this ship, and I made it rock!" "NO WAI U CAN'T MAK IT ROK TEH SHP IZ BAAAADDDDDD!!!!!!"
Just because you do not like something personally does not make it bad. Just because you can't pilot a ship well enough does not mean the rest of us share the same inability.
Ahhhh... People who think the entire world shares their weaknesses...
Edit: I actually moved from the sci version to the tac version. I was finding I was typically killing things too quickly to get the most out of SA, and the extra burst DPS I could get with the 5th tac console was better. YMMV, depending on what you are fighting.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
IMHO, the Botasq is a good ship because it is a heavy hitter but in a fight in ANY GAME you need more than just heaving hitting.
The Oddy is better than the bortasq because it is more agile. Need to turn alot? Saucer separate. What does the Bortasq have? The sub console. Not as good.
The Jem Dread is better than the Bortasq because of the pets. The Bortasq BOP should have been a hanger pet because it is difficult to keep alive. That alone would have saved the bortasq. Just a hanger that is only allowed to deploy BOP's.
But if you need to turn around and fight 5 ships 11k behind you, by the time you turn around to engage them in a bortasq, your BOP is dead.
In the Dread, by the time your have turned around to engage, you may have to deploy more pets but who cares.
Nothing can withstand staying in front of a bortasq. Agreed. But that isn't all a fight is.
You uncloak in front of a Defiant and start wailing on him. "OH NOES" he will say as he polarizes hull goes around you.
This has nothing to do with my personal like or dislike of the Bort. I said plainly that the autocannon on decloak is something that no other ship can do, so one point Bort. But that's it. Everything else can be done better with less sacrifice by other ships.
We are here because we're nitpicky min/maxxers. Well, I apologize, I don't mean to speak for everyone, but that's why I'm here. That means I'm going to try to pump the strengths of a ship/build as much as possible while minimizing the weaknesses. This leads to loads of discussions in which the merits of particular tradeoffs are debated.
The Bort can reach a certain level of effectiveness, but other ships can reach this level of strength while having far fewer weaknesses. That's my assertion, but let's talk about what got us here. To test my assertion we need to discuss things like the optimal weapons loadout for a battle cruiser and how it functions on the Bort v. other similar ships. We need to discuss the math behind things like the 3 piece bonus and whether or not it's worth it v. standard consoles like field gens and neuts.
But time and again the OP refuses to deal in reality. I provided the accepted standard (the skillpoint spreadsheet) and he rejected it because it didn't fit with his expected values. There is no way to get to the debate until both sides can agree on what raising a skill level by a certain amount actually does. I'm operating using this community's accepted numeric values. I'm putting it on the OP to back up his assertions that the many people who have accepted these values as being accurate are wrong.
So, again, welcome to the debate and thanks for your summary. Now that you're here, would you like to weigh in on a few of the issues? How about:
-What does +12 to Targeting do for your accuracy? For your crit rate?
-How much benefit does a mk X white photon torpedo actually recieve from a +12 to Projectile Weapon Damage?
-Is this for the most part accurate? If not, what are you finding to be innaccurate?
-Is the Hoh'sus deployable capable of defeating a player ship with a conscious, alert human being at the keyboard? What is the parse value of the pet's quads? One person says 12 dps against Mirandas on normal PvE, another says 10,000 against players running PvP level resists.
These are some of the points being discussed. I try not to let this get personal, in other words I try to let the numbers speak for themselves rather than just say "I'm a vet, shut it noob." But in this case the OP has citing my lack of experience as one reason for refusing to respond to the points raised.
Here's me talking about flying the Bort, I've only chosen this post because you can actually see my name in the quote since it's been archived. The date on that is March, 2012. The OP was posting in March 2013 for advice about buying the Bort. And if you check the actual content of my post and you decide to use it for evil, you have to type "Activate K'Put Maneuver" in zone chat, because I trademarked it and named it after my KDF engineer. I know the Bort, I watched it come squealing into the world and I barreled into the queues with it still covered in afterbirth. It was a sub-par battlecruiser on the day it left spacedock and has only become less relevant in the wake of fleet battlecruisers. Additionally, Quad cannons are poorly designed and have no place in a min/max discussion. Trumpeting the merits of these Z-Store products deserves a debate based in reality so the KDF population spends its money wisely.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Carry on...
Edit: For the record, I wasn't really talking about you, just the general tendency for people to call out perfectly functioning ships as useless because they can't make them work.
If you think the Bort is useless, you are wrong. If you want to debate its absolute perfect min/maxing, you can do that with any ship and slant the math in the direction you would like. I know, I can do it too.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
It isn't all that fun to play. It is hard to get used to.
It could have been done better.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
You seem to act as tho the tiniest of DPS stat differences completely negate the fact that there ain't no day that your precious Florcha will tank better.
Oppps! "Tanking is useless!!!" No. That is a false concept as well. Take an over geared ship into a weak event and tanking is useless. Take the same ship into a HO or NWS and all that tanking suddenly shines.
Whatever... I'm not looking to change your mind, it was never my goal. You are sure the ship is junk, then to you it is.
And if some fool reads that a Ho'sus does that much its on them if they believe it... lols....
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
But that dread carrier, for all its size and DPS, is going to blow up first under heavy, sustained fire. All those tac abilities come at a cost.
But... a lobi ship out performing a c-store ship? Who would have thought that? /roll eyes. That is kinda their point, or who would invest what it takes to get one, when for $50 you can just pick up a bort?
That, and to be honest, most people flying a dread carrier are really bad... Like really bad... Like I double their DPS in my Atrox bad... I don't know why really.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
First the quote response:
To be honest, and it may be a case of just plain blindness on my part, I haven't noticed anyone mentioning the tanking side of the bort.
Now the general response:
I have noticed some people posting about how their bort can destroy jem dreads, and oddy's, amongst other ships with, on one occasion, mixed weapon types on a very slow turning ship. If those statements are true, more power to them, but enlighten us as to ~How Exactly~ this is being done. Don't just spout math, provide some kind of proof in the shape of parse logs, videos, your skill layout, and anything else that is factual, concise, and clearly beyond a doubt proof of what is being claimed.
If this is done, then everyone will be able to see that those bort flagships they have collecting dust in space dock may actually be useful, and pull them out, which in turn would cause us to say "hey, the bort is actually a really good ship, you should buy it" to new players on the kdf side.
I have the bort, I did purchase the 3 pack, I find the consoles to be fun, with the auto cannon being the best, the snare is not so useful, and the pet is really a joke that doesn't deal out all that much dmg, and is often dead within seconds of it's alpha strike going off, mind you, this is in pve, not pvp.
As a request, please refrain from attempting to insult mine or anyone else intelligence just because my/their views and opinions do not match your own.
Finally my opinion:
The bortas is a good tanking ship, 1 of the best that I have obtained and tested to date, provided it's fitted with beams, the consoles are fun gimmicks, but often not all that practical in the grand scheme of things. The bortas also suffers badly on turn rate, making it unwise to fit it with dual cannons or dual heavy cannons unless you can predict exactly where your target is going to be, and where it's going to try to get to.
The Ho Sus pet is at best a distraction, and at worst a wasted console slot, I have it equipped to help with the turn rate of the ship, but in all honesty, I still like my vor'cha retrofit over the bort.
As for the jem dread, no I don't have one, and after a long self only debate over the paper stats of the dread and the recluse, i opted to get the recluse, which i had a lot of fun flying for a time,before getting back into the vo'quv.
I personally feel the vo'quv with the advanced bops (or fleet ones if you can grab them) is actually a better option kdf side for a carrier
Bortasqu' Command vs. Tor'Kaht
+3900 Hull
-0.1 Shield Modifier
-4.5 Turn
-12 Inertia
+10 Shield Power
-10 Engine Power
Bortasqu' Command
X, X
X, X, X, X
X, X
X, X, X
X
Tor'Kaht
X, X, X
X, X
X, X, X, X
X
X, X
Er...so how exactly do you have the Bort tanking better?
"Event"? Look, there's no way to say this without coming off as an elitist prick, so I won't beat around the bush: PvE can be completed with nearly any build. There's no need to min/max for PvE.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Saying a ship is useless because its not good for PvP is really stacking the deck. Damn near 90% of the game is not good for PvP. Most people don't PvP, either. Hell she could be a total waste in PvP. Me and most of the population really don't care. Most ships, gear, and setup are a total waste in PvP. Saying something is bad for PvP is like saying the sky is blue.
If you want a PvP ship, maybe look at the PvP forums... with the handful of people who honestly care about PvP.
Tor'Khat Vs Bort tanking? While I have no doubt a Florcha can tank, it will not tank better then a Bort geared and specced to do so, not with the Bort using its unis for tanking. The bort will be able to recover from more hits faster, where the florcha would have had to tucked tail and ran.
Fleet Negh? Yup, I'd say she tanks better. But she won't out DPS her. That is kinda the point... All those unis and 3 versions? She is supposed to be a jack of all trades.
To me its another case of people trying to turn the ship into something its not. She is big, she is slow, and she is versatile. Of course ships that are dedicated to specific functions are better at those functions. That does not make a ship useless... which is all I said at the outset.
You can have your ship measuring contest, I could care less, but I find it funny when people say a ship is useless when its not. To me it shows they don't know how to fly it.
Edit: The ship you all should be pointing out is the Fleet Kamarang? Hell I don't remember its name... the KDF ambassador clone... /drool...
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Getting out from under guns is not tanking, its kiting.
The Bort excels at taking the hit, smiling, going back up to full health, saying can I have another, and doing it again.
Both are effective, but have a different feel.
Pick your poison. I like both, I don't disparage your opinion, I just happen to also like the other.
Edit: And I'm not sure if you are insinuating it can't, but I can easily solo a cube with my bort... and just about any other ship really... They aren't that hard you just have to keep on your toes.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Bortas vs Tor'Kaht or Fleet Negh'Var is a different story.
Bortas suffers from poor turn rate. That 5.5 is a death sentence. As for tanking Bortas has a higher hull, the others better shield modifier, hence no significant difference.
The 2 fleet ships can use effectively DHC due to the turn rate, paired with 1 or 2 RCS consoles, even in PVP.
As for why people do not pvp, pvp requires to optimize your ship to the limit and make it viable. You have to tank better than in pve and you have to output more damage than in pve as well.
I have seen many people pvp in a Bortas but none of them used DHC, hence they cannot output more damage than someone that uses a DHC Tor'Kaht build. In pve less moving around is required but still if you are more agile your are more efficient, always damage wise.(if it takes more time to turn 180 degrees to face your opponent, your contribution to damage is less than a teammate that has already turned and started firing)
Bortas is not a bad ship, not in pve not in pvp. It needs to equipped and used right. Is it inferior to the Tor'Kaht. Damage wise yes. I cannot say for the fleet Negh'Var because my fleet is not there yet. However, when it available I will try it.
Now for the cost. Bortas costs only 500 zen more than the Fleet Version of the aforementioned Battle Cruisers. What you get for that is simple a fancy console with a long cool down. The Disruptor Autocannon might be great console, but if you slot all 3 you loose either armor consoles or tactical consoles. Hence, on the big picture you lose more than it is offered.
Personally I was thinking of buying a Bortas(3 pack), but then I decided that it better to spend 100m EC for a Galor if I have to use beams.
KDF Eng: Boreas I.K.S. Demonon Nemesis {Fleet: HoS}
Rom Sci: Crius I.R.W. Noctem Aeternus {Fleet: LoS}
Fed Tac: Kronos U.S.S. Xibalba, I.S.S. Theogonia{Fleet: HSF}
Honestly, most special consoles... kinda meh. Some gems for sure, but mostly they are fun toys.
The snare is good sometimes, too, tho replacing it with a jump instead, better.
The only good part in the 3pc is it lowering the cooldown on the autocannon... not worth 2 consoles IMO.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
As for the K'Maj (Fleet Kamarag Retro) - yeah, that's definitely on the radar - the Kamarag's a blast to fly compared to the Vor'cha Retro/Mirror Vor'cha.
You've made multiple posts now which have opinions on the role of the Bort, that it's better than other ships in specific ways. Please support your assertions with example builds, math, parses, etc. Thanks.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Ask me how this is fact.
Because the ship description compared to even a Fed Escort, or Kling BoP, factored in with the +12 Energy Weapons Specialization, And the Accuracy Buff.
You'll soon figure out fast why it's the highest DPS ship in the game for a Tac. Add that to a Rom Bridge Officer, and cloak alpha. There isn't a single ship in this entire game that can out DPS the Bort Tactical Cruiser with the 5 Tactical Console Slots, and everything else on it.
Subspace Snare, and Subspace Jump help dramatically for a bort being ganked by an Escort.
Well its one thing when you are defending aspects of your favorite ship but when you start lying you're just going to make it hard on yourself. There are plenty of ships that can out dps a bortasqu like the kumari the Bug and many escorts and really anything with a Cmdr TAC slot and higher turn rate.