Out of curiosity, how did you perform the test? I just ask in case range changes were a factor and the actual problem might be greater or lesser. Ever since timid foundry creatures were altered the only way I have to test reliably is get a friend to sit still while I shoot him.
Thanks for posting this though, especially with everyone so focused on the shields.
I set my weapon power to 125 and looked at the tool tip to see DPS at 125power. Then looked at tooltip to see weapon DPS with the EPTW2 damage bonus while at 125. That gave me the difference the bonus damage did without any change in weapon power. Then I lowered weapon power by 30 to see how much DPS differences there is for the bonus weapon power. Then it was just basic math to work out the rest. As long as I didn't mess up the math the new power to weapons lower DPS by a large amount around 2k dps lost for my beam setup.
Over the course of the last 3 years you the devs have made some really stupid and ham handed changes. This takes the cake. Seriously do YOU even play the same game the rest of us do? Have you EVER pvped, or do you just balance off of your TRIBBLE pve that has the AI of bowling ball. I can BLAZE through all the pve in this game with a middle ground pvp setup with NO DIFFICULTY. If you think pve needs to be harder how about better AI, how about NPC's that actually use more than a few BO powers and actively heal shield facings or evade. This change is stupid, fleet shields, all the new rep bonuses, and the p2w ships and their gear sets have caused the unkillable ship problem. Some people can't afford to drop a 100 dollars or more for a fully kitted out Well's Time Ship or Jem Hadar Attack Ship. This won't change a thing other than making it harder to kill the already unkillable. EPTS has been the SAME for 3 freaking years and it wasn't a problem until now. I personally think this change is to make people have to spend more real money to be able to compete. When I get alpha'd by a JHAS with 4 dhc's, 5 tac consoles, all elite fleet gear, and a alien captain with the best space traits in the game, epts doesn't help a freaking bit even now.
While i can't speak for this loss of dps some people are seeing with eptw, there are alot changes i like the increase of duration of the eptw and epte. EPTE specifically feels like a a fair ability now.. +2 turn on epte 1 lets me turn my big whale and appreciate that it isn't over in 8 seconds like EM 3.
It gives me about a turn rate of 11.1 at full impulse when used and 25.6 when EM 3 is used with it. While I'm usually sitting at 8.4 when not in max engine power mode.
look, i know your all happy about a nerf to shield res, im just as sick and tired of shooting permanently invincible targets too. think about whats actually going to happen with a 10 second hole removing nearly all your res, how will that change how the game is played in practice?
well, every single kill will happen in that 10 seconds, guarantied. if your a slow mover, and your tanking focus fire, and suddenly your shields start taking twice or 3 times as much damage for an entire 10 seconds, you know what that feels like? getting subnuked. your not going to have TSS or RSP ready every time that hole comes up, and if your not in an escort, your cant just crank up the speed and avoid damage
every non fail escort will speed tank, watching his chosen target's EPtS count down from 20, and use his 10 second long CRF, and any otehr spike, to hit during that perfectly sized 10 second window. if he uses RSP, oh well, he wont have it next time. if just has TT, that wont save him, not with his shields taking at least 25% more damage. TSS might help, but unless you have room for 2 of them thier coverage of your weaken shields will be spotty.
this removes slow movers healing attrition, and gives them nothing in return. they are simply more vulnerable, and no more able to defend them selves offensively. an escort can stay glued to a cruiser with no fear of its damage, 10 seconds is not enough time for a cruisers pressure to seriously harm an escort. if its damage was substantial enough to do that for 10 seconds, it would be called spike.
escorts dont have to guess what to do, dont have to rely on sci to make openings, the game has been modified so its easier for escort users to kill things, on their own, with no help. they also nerfed EPtS in a way that effects them the least. the EPtW change nerfs cruisers that actually need all that power it gives. escorts dont, their weapons dont drain tham below 90, they just want that 20 second long damage multiplier. so, another buff to escorts and a nerf to cruisers.
here is the problem with the game right now
- pressure damage is dead, no mater how strong it is it cant out pace basic heal cycleing, and needs a LONG time before it even has a chance too, like in a dual. any ship who's weapons arent DHC, a DBB for BO, or a build that revolves around shield penetrating torp damage or DOT, might as well not bother shooting. beam arrays, single cannons, dual cannons, and dual beam banks without BO dont do anything anymore.
action taken- nerf EPtW for pressure damage dealers, buff it for spikers
-the game's rouges can wear the fighters full plate and use its great sword. this games fighter can ether go into battle with a shield and just his fist (eng), or dual wield dagers (tac). this games rouge has only a slight con penalty over this games fighter, has incredible acrobatic feets, and suffers no encumbrance from using the great sword or plate armor
action taken- the breast plate falls off every 20 seconds. the rouge can acrobatically avoid damage though so this is not much of a problem for the rouge, unless it is grappled
- the game is too yoyo with on and off spike and cross healing grated invincibility or subnuked donwn to nothing and being paper thin. the difference between buffed and unbuffed is so huge that the only way to kill often enough is with a removal of the buffs. only yoyos work, nothing in between has any effect, pressure cant cause any sort of reaction.
action taken- this game's control wizard had curses that made everyone's armor fall off, but now the armor falls of on its own, lowering the need for curses, or his presence at all. the players didn't seem to be causing yoyos enough on their own, stupid players, so we replaced what is the most fundamental baseline passive ability with 1 that has as big a yoyo hole in it as we could think up.
how about changes that benifit everyone more equally, and dont doom certain ship types? how about that? would that be ok?
cut the bonus to res of EPtS in half, have it last 30 seconds like always, and drop the emergency part from the name, you bunch of RPers seem to have a big problem with that. also remove the resA/B mod from elite shields, replace it with a cap mod on all currently in use elite shields.
for the rest of the EPt skills, 30 second durations, so EPtW isn't a nerf for cruisers and just a buff to escorts.
fix the 1000000 stealth sight bug on EPtA, and its fine
make EPtE primarily a turn rate buffer, not a speed buffer. escorts dont need to be made more speedy then they are now, just the engine power is enough. they actually need to be less speedy, avoidance is already better then actual tanking. buffing turn rate a FLAT amount would benefit slow turners more then already fast turners, something also needed.
overall, there would be a bit of an invincible shield nerf, an increase in cruiser damage levels, escorts, and most of all the bug, not being able to zip around at hyper speed so freely, and evul cloakers wont have as much freedom.
or you could have a built in spike exploit, and... well thats pretty much it. thats all the game will be, a 10 second hole in EPtS coverage, not needing a sci to get it, just escorts lazily dumping 4 cannons worth of damage through paper thin shields, winning the day, well and truly invalidating every other choice of ship or captain type as valid.
I set my weapon power to 125 and looked at the tool tip to see DPS at 125power. Then looked at tooltip to see weapon DPS with the EPTW2 damage bonus while at 125. That gave me the difference the bonus damage did without any change in weapon power. Then I lowered weapon power by 30 to see how much DPS differences there is for the bonus weapon power. Then it was just basic math to work out the rest. As long as I didn't mess up the math the new power to weapons lower DPS by a large amount around 2k dps lost for my beam setup.
That is not an accurate way to to determine weapon DPS. I ran my own tests at Starbase 234. Started the combatlog at the beginning of the mission and ended it when the Starbase was no longer targetable. I made three runs on both Tribble and Redshirt. I used my Tank build which chained EPtW2. FAW2 was also used (with 2 Energy Weapon Doffs - Beam Special Cooldown), as the build uses it normally in combat. For the weapons, I used 7 Spiral Wave Disruptors and 1 Kinetic Cutting Beam. The Beam Array DPS listed is only for the Spiral Wave Disruptors. I also re-copied my character to Tribble to get rid of the new traits.
There doesn't seem to be a discernible difference between the two.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
look, i know your all happy about a nerf to shield res, im just as sick and tired of shooting permanently invincible targets too. think about whats actually going to happen with a 10 second hole removing nearly all your res, how will that change how the game is played in practice?
well, every single kill will happen in that 10 seconds, guarantied. if your a slow mover, and your tanking focus fire, and suddenly your shields start taking twice or 3 times as much damage for an entire 10 seconds, you know what that feels like? getting subnuked. your not going to have TSS or RSP ready every time that hole comes up, and if your not in an escort, your cant just crank up the speed and avoid damage
every non fail escort will speed tank, watching his chosen target's EPtS count down from 20, and use his 10 second long CRF, and any otehr spike, to hit during that perfectly sized 10 second window. if he uses RSP, oh well, he wont have it next time. if just has TT, that wont save him, not with his shields taking at least 25% more damage. TSS might help, but unless you have room for 2 of them thier coverage of your weaken shields will be spotty.
this removes slow movers healing attrition, and gives them nothing in return. they are simply more vulnerable, and no more able to defend them selves offensively. an escort can stay glued to a cruiser with no fear of its damage, 10 seconds is not enough time for a cruisers pressure to seriously harm an escort. if its damage was substantial enough to do that for 10 seconds, it would be called spike.
escorts dont have to guess what to do, dont have to rely on sci to make openings, the game has been modified so its easier for escort users to kill things, on their own, with no help. they also nerfed EPtS in a way that effects them the least. the EPtW change nerfs cruisers that actually need all that power it gives. escorts dont, their weapons dont drain tham below 90, they just want that 20 second long damage multiplier. so, another buff to escorts and a nerf to cruisers.
here is the problem with the game right now
- pressure damage is dead, no mater how strong it is it cant out pace basic heal cycleing, and needs a LONG time before it even has a chance too, like in a dual. any ship who's weapons arent DHC, a DBB for BO, or a build that revolves around shield penetrating torp damage or DOT, might as well not bother shooting. beam arrays, single cannons, dual cannons, and dual beam banks without BO dont do anything anymore.
action taken- nerf EPtW for pressure damage dealers, buff it for spikers
-the game's rouges can wear the fighters full plate and use its great sword. this games fighter can ether go into battle with a shield and just his fist (eng), or dual wield dagers (tac). this games rouge has only a slight con penalty over this games fighter, has incredible acrobatic feets, and suffers no encumbrance from using the great sword or plate armor
action taken- the breast plate falls off every 20 seconds. the rouge can acrobatically avoid damage though so this is not much of a problem for the rouge, unless it is grappled
- the game is too yoyo with on and off spike and cross healing grated invincibility or subnuked donwn to nothing and being paper thin. the difference between buffed and unbuffed is so huge that the only way to kill often enough is with a removal of the buffs. only yoyos work, nothing in between has any effect, pressure cant cause any sort of reaction.
action taken- this game's control wizard had curses that made everyone's armor fall off, but now the armor falls of on its own, lowering the need for curses, or his presence at all. the players didn't seem to be causing yoyos enough on their own, stupid players, so we replaced what is the most fundamental baseline passive ability with 1 that has as big a yoyo hole in it as we could think up.
how about changes that benifit everyone more equally, and dont doom certain ship types? how about that? would that be ok?
cut the bonus to res of EPtS in half, have it last 30 seconds like always, and drop the emergency part from the name, you bunch of RPers seem to have a big problem with that. also remove the resA/B mod from elite shields, replace it with a cap mod on all currently in use elite shields.
for the rest of the EPt skills, 30 second durations, so EPtW isn't a nerf for cruisers and just a buff to escorts.
fix the 1000000 stealth sight bug on EPtA, and its fine
make EPtE primarily a turn rate buffer, not a speed buffer. escorts dont need to be made more speedy then they are now, just the engine power is enough. they actually need to be less speedy, avoidance is already better then actual tanking. buffing turn rate a FLAT amount would benefit slow turners more then already fast turners, something also needed.
overall, there would be a bit of an invincible shield nerf, an increase in cruiser damage levels, escorts, and most of all the bug, not being able to zip around at hyper speed so freely, and evul cloakers wont have as much freedom.
or you could have a built in spike exploit, and... well thats pretty much it. thats all the game will be, a 10 second hole in EPtS coverage, not needing a sci to get it, just escorts lazily dumping 4 cannons worth of damage through paper thin shields, winning the day, well and truly invalidating every other choice of ship or captain type as valid.
There are many other tanking powers or heals people can use: miracle worker, RPS, RSF, TT, APD, Aux to sif, aux to damp, TSS, HE, elite fleet shields ... And i'm not counting the control/confuse powers, blocking your opponent so that he can't do any damage to you. This isn't a "nerf omg we're doomed", this is a change about how us, players, will be able to tank after this update. Yes many people will have to update their builds and not using the lazy EPTS3 x2 stupid macro to be unkillable.
There are DOZENS of alternatives. Dozens. You guys just need to figure out that there's something beyond permabuffed tanks and that you can do it with careful planning.
It's definitely not about RP, it's about buffs. No buff, except this one and the elite fleet shields, has a 100% uptime. This is just fairness.
Elite fleet shields are like a free EPTS3 with a 100% uptime anyway. I hope you can understand that and get that it shouldn't be possible to have something like 2x EPTS3 active at the same time. There's no fun here, unless you like having people ignoring anyone attacking them and tanking 5 players quietly with a zombie macro. :rolleyes:
So: no pve issue. Problem solved.
Getting elite fleet gear: it's better than the nerfedd buff. Problem solved.
There are many other tanking powers or heals people can use: miracle worker, RPS, RSF, TT, APD, Aux to sif, aux to damp, TSS, HE, elite fleet shields ... And i'm not counting the control/confuse powers, blocking your opponent so that he can't do any damage to you. This isn't a "nerf omg we're doomed", this is a change about how us, players, will be able to tank after this update. Yes many people will have to update their builds and not using the lazy EPTS3 x2 stupid macro to be unkillable.
There are DOZENS of alternatives. Dozens. You guys just need to figure out that there's something beyond permabuffed tanks and that you can do it with careful planning.
It's definitely not about RP, it's about buffs. No buff, except this one and the elite fleet shields, has a 100% uptime. This is just fairness.
Elite fleet shields are like a free EPTS3 with a 100% uptime anyway. I hope you can understand that and get that it shouldn't be possible to have something like 2x EPTS3 active at the same time. There's no fun here, unless you like having people ignoring anyone attacking them and tanking 5 players quietly with a zombie macro. :rolleyes:
So: no pve issue. Problem solved.
Getting elite fleet gear: it's better than the nerfedd buff. Problem solved.
So what about those of us that are not engineers? No RSF, no MW none of that plot device PvP magic you're carrying around. You don't even understand how to properly calculate your own shield resist (well you do now thanks to a kind Sad Panda) and you're trying to justify your position against the best PvP players in the game.
Who do run the numbers.
Who do use excel.
Who have always provided excellent advice to the community.
I have read every post you've made on this matter, and I have to agree with DDIS and the Pandas. Your play style may not be affected but others will be. Adversely.
So what about those of us that are not engineers? No RSF, no MW none of that plot device PvP magic you're carrying around. You don't even understand how to properly calculate your own shield resist (well you do now thanks to a kind Sad Panda) and you're trying to justify your position against the best PvP players in the game.
Who do run the numbers.
Who do use excel.
Who have always provided excellent advice to the community.
I have read every post you've made on this matter, and I have to agree with DDIS and the Pandas. Your play style may not be affected but others will be. Adversely.
Ah at last someone admits that it's not ruining the game, it's ruining some existing builds. Some. Including mine on a couple of chars. I like to see how much conservative pvp-focused players are in most games. This one is no different.
And for the record, my main is a sci, n?2 is a tac, and my eng is only my 3rd char, even if i mostly pvp with it. I'm only using my experience and rough estimates (it's always been enough to be successful in this game) to show people that there's not just one possibility and that change isn't that bad. Can you do that instead of complaining for once?
Ok if you're so good at pvp here is a challenge for you: finding an alternative build allowing you to tank with the current tribble change. Just imagine for the next 5 minutes that this is here to stay and that it's not going to be reversed. Since you're obviously convinced that you're better than me you should have no trouble doing that. :rolleyes:
...Ok if you're so good at pvp here is a challenge for you: finding an alternative build allowing you to tank with the current tribble change. Just imagine for the next 5 minutes that this is here to stay and that it's not going to be reversed. Since you're obviously convinced that you're better than me you should have no trouble doing that. :rolleyes:
Shortened for brevity sake. It isn't about being better. I just disagree with the premise of your argument. The vast majority of your posts are based from an engineer class perspective. This leads me to believe that you have not considered all the implications of this change.
In 3 years, since you want to compare alternates... I've got a science, an engineer and 3 tacticals. :rolleyes:
Also that .9 you asked about allows for resistance to diminish in return so that a player can never reach a perfect "invulnerable state" where all damage is resisted. The formula was actually given by a Dev. Named SNIX when cryptic rebalanced the EptX powers almost 2 years ago. The logic on how hull tanking works is also just as counter intuitive.
And yes I am already working around this bad design choice, it's only prudent.
every non fail escort will speed tank, watching his chosen target's EPtS count down from 20, and use his 10 second long CRF, and any otehr spike, to hit during that perfectly sized 10 second window. if he uses RSP, oh well, he wont have it next time. if just has TT, that wont save him, not with his shields taking at least 25% more damage. TSS might help, but unless you have room for 2 of them thier coverage of your weaken shields will be spotty.
I think what really needs to be done is to rewrite the Defense algorithm to make it less effective than it currently is.
An awful lot of people here are getting carried away with the flow on effects of these changes, and using that to justify that the change is bad. This approach will result in STO never receiving any major gameplay improvements. Fix this issue, then deal with issues that result.
The core problem is that EPTS is mandatory, most people maintain a 100% uptime with it. It also overshadows all other EPTX skills, rendering them useless. The devs are attempting to make all of these skills attractive, and make the use of EPTX a conscious decision based on the cirumstances. This change is an attempt to do this, so I support it, even though it will make tanking harder for me. I'd rather if they gave the same resists at all levels and improved and improved duration instead, so that escorts could use it for their bursty style gameplay while cruisers got more sustain from it, but whatever.
Those people that say they'd prefer their low level skills to be "boring and reliable": we already have those. They are the passive skills you select for your captain. They define your general strengths and weaknesses. Abilities are supposed to be just that. Things that you actually do.
Any ability that is typically found in a macro chain is probably a poorly designed ability. If there is no situation in which I wouldn't want to use an ability, may as well make it a passive and be done with it. At the moment EPTS, TT1 and CRF are prime examples of this.
People have said that escorts will simply wait until cruisers use EPTS, and then nail them in the cooldown. So why does a cruiser need to use Emergency Power to Shields to withstand regular unbuffed fire from an escort in the first place? What other tools do Sci/Eng have to mitigate damage or plug the gap in EPTS?
Personally I hope to see a day where there are parts of this game that cannot be sustain tanked, and that will REQUIRE cross-heal/resist, rotating damage amongst team members and Sci vessels debuffing targets while cruisers Extend Shields on escorts while they do their bursty attack run. For me this is what a fight against a borg cube should have been from the start.
An awful lot of people here are getting carried away with the flow on effects of these changes, and using that to justify that the change is bad. This approach will result in STO never receiving any major gameplay improvements. Fix this issue, then deal with issues that result.
That's not very efficient. You end up creating additional problems. You do not take into account how the various changes may interact with something already in the game or something that is going to be added in the near future.
Is the current issue a massively gamebreaking issue that has resulted in the game not being playable? No. Then it's not an emergency and doesn't require the use of Emergency Power to Hurried Fixes.
They've shared this early - so folks can get some feedback in. Much of that feedback acknowledges there is an issue and it needs to be addressed - but - this change doesn't address it.
First of all, it is not mandatory. Second of all, if the core problem is that some people believe that EPtS is mandatory - then the problem is not EPtS - the problem is what is causing people to feel that EPtS is mandatory. That is what should be addressed then, no?
See, an example of where the change as a solution for the problem identified by certain people is not even a solution to the problem they have identified. A reason not to rush into things...eh?
most people maintain a 100% uptime with it. It also overshadows all other EPTX skills, rendering them useless. The devs are attempting to make all of these skills attractive, and make the use of EPTX a conscious decision based on the cirumstances. This change is an attempt to do this, so I support it, even though it will make tanking harder for me. I'd rather if they gave the same resists at all levels and improved and improved duration instead, so that escorts could use it for their bursty style gameplay while cruisers got more sustain from it, but whatever.
There's little doubt that EPtS > EPt* for a vast number of people out there. Some will even 2x EPtS rather than run a different EPtX ability. Thing is, is it really a case that the others need to be buffed out the wahzoo? Would that in turn not just create that feeling that the other is..."needed"...much like EPtS was originally?
It's about opportunity cost - about the desire to min/max in a given situation - and those situations, those scenarios, actually existing where the various abilities could each find themselves more desired (dare one say "needed") compared to the others.
Imagine that a scenario existed where EPtE was the most desired. EPtA? EPtW? That if a person was looking at a certain build to do a certain thing - that at any given time, each of the four EPtX abilities might actually be the most desired ability to have.
Personally, as an "Emergency" ability - I'd say they should be redesigned in such a manner where perhaps they are most desired because that is where a particular ship may feel weakest. But that's just me...so yeah, whatever.
Those people that say they'd prefer their low level skills to be "boring and reliable": we already have those. They are the passive skills you select for your captain. They define your general strengths and weaknesses. Abilities are supposed to be just that. Things that you actually do.
Any ability that is typically found in a macro chain is probably a poorly designed ability. If there is no situation in which I wouldn't want to use an ability, may as well make it a passive and be done with it. At the moment EPTS, TT1 and CRF are prime examples of this.
Hrmmm, to an extent - well, bah - that's kind of nitpicking semantics on my part. No doubt one could easily consider it a macro chain - but it's not really a macro. You don't hit the one button and it does everything. You have to hit the button repeatedly. It's multibinding - multiple commands to the same key, etc, etc, etc.
So yes, there's definitely a problem with an ability if it's something that you really don't think about and have slapped on your "spam" button.
A macro on the other hand, so to speak... say something like this:
That's not something you're just mindlessly spamming. It's actually a form of player created Attack Pattern, eh? Attack Pattern Virus Green! /cough Um, yeah.
Some people will create multibinds in attempts to create macro chains. Say they hit the "KEY" once for the THY and they hit it a second time for the actual Torp.
So yeah, just a little nitpicking on my part, my apologies for that. Just think there's a difference between binds like that binds that just spam from a list of abilities that may not be on CD at the moment sort of thing.
People have said that escorts will simply wait until cruisers use EPTS, and then nail them in the cooldown. So why does a cruiser need to use Emergency Power to Shields to withstand regular unbuffed fire from an escort in the first place? What other tools do Sci/Eng have to mitigate damage or plug the gap in EPTS?
Can't really just look at it as far as what tools Sci/Eng have. If you're looking at a Cruiser, you have to look at it as far as what can any of the Careers do in such a situation during that gap - what innate abilities do they have - what BOFF abilities might they have available to them...that sort of thing.
Something to keep in mind with that as well, mind you, is while there is a lot of talk about the 10s gap with 2x EPtS - folks with a single EPtS are looking at a 25s gap - those with EPtS/EPtX are looking at a 10-25s gap. So yeah, the coverage time is going to vary.
And before I go on, notice how it's still a case of talking about the EPtS? So how was the problem of EPtS being "needed" addressed then? Didn't this change just maintain that problem while creating the additional problem of what to do during that 10-25s gap? Tada, that's one of the reasons some folks are downing the change...not because they do not feel there needs to be a change - just that this change doesn't make any sense.
But yeah anyway, to cover that gap - it will require some folks to change their builds. This brings to the forefront a glaring issue in the game though...that's the balance in regard to ships. Grab two ships - say a Bug and a Fleet Regent or Fleet Excelsior. Maximize both of them for damage - which actually has more survivability? Odd, eh? It's also the one with the most damage. Okay, so you try to increase the survivability of the lesser one...means you're also going to be getting that much further behind in damage.
Just an example of how there are so many things that need to be balanced in the game - core things - before they get into balancing things such as abilities. It's one of the reasons that changes to things like that often result in unexpected consequences.
Personally I hope to see a day where there are parts of this game that cannot be sustain tanked, and that will REQUIRE cross-heal/resist, rotating damage amongst team members and Sci vessels debuffing targets while cruisers Extend Shields on escorts while they do their bursty attack run. For me this is what a fight against a borg cube should have been from the start.
Really? Cause...you know...they didn't have magic wand healing in Star Trek. They never had spidertanking in Star Trek. Why should that be in a game with the name Star Trek Online? Personally, I hope to see the day where they remove all the silly healing...boost buffer...look at resists...and balance damage appropriately at that point.
First of all, it is not mandatory. Second of all, if the core problem is that some people believe that EPtS is mandatory - then the problem is not EPtS - the problem is what is causing people to feel that EPtS is mandatory. That is what should be addressed then, no?
It has become manditory because of the insanely powerful sustain it provides via the increase to resistance and the stupid strong passive regeneration it provides thanks to shield power design. I have long advocated simply removing regeneration boosting from shield power but hey this will help cut that down anyway.
This brings to the forefront a glaring issue in the game though...that's the balance in regard to ships. Grab two ships - say a Bug and a Fleet Regent or Fleet Excelsior. Maximize both of them for damage - which actually has more survivability? Odd, eh? It's also the one with the most damage. Okay, so you try to increase the survivability of the lesser one...means you're also going to be getting that much further behind in damage.
That is a bad comparison. Try the Galor vs Bug to make it a bit more even and in that situation the Galor should have the higher defense when dealing sustained damage due to it being easier to keep defense bonus. Since I only own one of those two ships though and am lazy I will not atm bother to actually do the math but I would likely still give the galor the overall defensive advantage but the bug without a doubt much higher spike damage.
Now when you want to talk about silly strong escort tanks you need look no futher than the Akira or JHEC but those are exceptions when using specific doffs to get silly with builds.
The repel will never change. It was said that in the past. Tech doesn't allow it.
In the past, yes. What they dont realize is that they could make a space sci trait that could act as a Percentage-Based modifier to improve CC powers, increasing them by 100%, thus doubling the hold/slow CC effect.
As it stands, -.51 is ridiculous. It cant even hold a cruiser.
Looong post Virus Dancer! Will try not to omni-slash too much.
I acknowledge that EPTS being considered (almost) mandatory is actually caused by other factors. The main one that comes to mind is the general "flat" damage coming from enemies (such as cubes), rather than manageable spikes or patterns that players can actually play against (like Donatra). However, they will become obvious once the EPTS crutch is fixed. I strongly suspect another of those factors is actually just skill and playstyle. People flat out expect to be able to sustain tank some of the toughest enemies in the game solo, and I'm not sure that's reasonable.
Personally, as an "Emergency" ability - I'd say they should be redesigned in such a manner where perhaps they are most desired because that is where a particular ship may feel weakest. But that's just me...so yeah, whatever.
Totally agree. I'd like to see EPTE to get out of a Donatra/Tholian deathray, EPTW as a last ditch Nanite Sphere buster, EPTA to really shove that Sabotaging ship a long way away. But at the moment they just don't seem good enough to get players using them. I agree they can be used to patch up weak areas of a ship, but I'd also suggest that letting them be used on areas of strength by pushing past power cap. A tac will already be running capped weapon power, so EPTW is pretty unattractive. Maybe we could fix that.
I will try and use the term multibinding in future, to avoid confusion, but my point stands. This game has too many abilities that have high uptimes, lots of pros and no cons.
Just an example of how there are so many things that need to be balanced in the game - core things - before they get into balancing things such as abilities.
I'd love to know peoples thoughts on these things then. Lots of people saying "this change will break my build", not "they should change this instead". I suspect half the people will say "fix the speed defence first", then the other half will say "don't touch that", and we'll get nowhere fast. I myself only run a single copy of EPTS, and find that more than sufficient for ESTFs with fleetmates. So I'm not overly terrified of this change myself.
Really? Cause...you know...they didn't have magic wand healing in Star Trek. They never had spidertanking in Star Trek. Why should that be in a game with the name Star Trek Online?
Actually there were multiple instances of ships extending their shields to protect others in the TV series, all the way from TNG to VOY. Shield healing/boosting was very common, however they weren't quite the same mechanics as we get ingame. I've gotta say that the idea of Extend Shields being a bubble effect so that a cruiser/science could shepherd in a couple of escorts behind strong shields is awesome. I agree with you that hull repairing was definitely not common and should be toned down in the game, but defence-oriented teamwork should not.
I will try and use the term multibinding in future, to avoid confusion, but my point stands. This game has too many abilities that have high uptimes, lots of pros and no cons.
Don't have to use that term in the least - heck, I'm not sure I had heard it before using it there - was just trying to use a descriptive term. Was mainly just trying to differentiate some of the things people might be using somewhat similar methods to do different things.
The first one is a typical wear the spacebar out distributing shields, firing weapons, and cycling those two EPtX abilities. Sheer mindless spammage.
The second one on the other hand is a typical "Weapon Ability" then "Weapon" thing. It's just a case of having a keybind to do two things with a doubletap - rather than having to hit two keys or click two things on the bar. It's not a mindless spammage thing.
Sure, some folks will drop that in the spacebar spambind - but it was just a nitpick thing like I said - wasn't meant to be a big thing...just a minor thing.
Still, I definitely agree that there are too many abilities that have uptimes, short CDs, etc, etc, etc. It's more like a pseudo action fantasy MMO than a space MMO with much of the design.
Actually there were multiple instances of ships extending their shields to protect others in the TV series, all the way from TNG to VOY. Shield healing/boosting was very common, however they weren't quite the same mechanics as we get ingame. I've gotta say that the idea of Extend Shields being a bubble effect so that a cruiser/science could shepherd in a couple of escorts behind strong shields is awesome. I agree with you that hull repairing was definitely not common and should be toned down in the game, but defence-oriented teamwork should not.
I was mainly talking about the magic wand nature of it in STO compared to the shows/movies.
Think about the names of some of the abilities, eh? They sound like things from the show, but they don't work that way.
Extend Shields - yep - actually a case of extending shields. The shield strength of the one ship was extended to another ship. It wasn't a case of magically producing additional shield strength out of nowhere for that other ship. If ExS actually worked like the shows/movies and even how the name itself sounds - that would be nifty.
Transfer Shield Strength - yep - actually a case of transferring shield strength. The shield strength of the one ship was transferred to another ship. The one ship sacrificed some of their own shield strength to transfer it to the other. It wasn't a case of magically producing additional shield strength out of nowhere for that other ship. If TSS actually worked the like the shows/movies and even how the name itself sounds - that would be nifty.
Tactical Team, Engineering Team, Science Team...wtf? Yeah, it would be one thing if it were actually a case of sending shuttles or beaming teams through shield frequencies with the required codes - so they could help out, repair things over times, get stuff going again, etc, etc, etc - but they're not...they're just more magic wand healing stuff.
Then you get into things like AtS - major magic wand, eh?
Yes, there's no doubt that ships could provide support to each other - and - if that was available in the game, that would be awesome (imho). The magic wand healing - healing things that ships would spend weeks if not months getting repaired in a second...er...not so awesome.
I'd definitely prefer more buffer - less resistance - less magic wand healing - more healing over time - more repairing critical damage type things like you might see in an ESTF (abilities that repair that rather than consumables) - and just more fictional realism, lol.
As long as they keep adding more magic wand healing (and they do it all the time with various passives, procs, set bonuses, etc) - well, they're going to end up juggling things like the EPtX stuff and everything else...there will never be balance.
All your thoughts on abilities I agree with 100%, making them a conscious choice for the player are great. Do I give him shield strength or do I need it myself? Do I take ensign engineering team or risk having broken components? I guess at the end of the day I just want to see more of those decisions in the game. This change isn't perfect, but it might force players to make a conscious decision on when to use EPTS and when to save it. And purely for that reason I want to commend the devs for at least trying, and encourage them to keep looking at these 100% uptime abilities that promote mindless spam and power creep.
I had spent the better part of 5 months trying to build a DPS cruiser for PvP as an engineer. After a while, I finally gave up and turned my attention to filling the role it was meant to fill, and that it a tank. I used to get angry as my friends would laugh as they could just sit still, and I couldn't kill them. After making the switch, they get just as angry at me because they can't kill me. Yeah sure, I still don't hurt them at all, but I have my ship set up to heal myself as well as everyone else, so it makes everyone happy.
However, now with this change, For ten seconds without the bonus power AND the shield resist, I am effectively down 45% resist for 10 seconds, which is more than enough time for an escort to rip through me. After testing with some friends on tribble, this was verified over and over again. I cannot survive one escort, especially coming out of cloak, let alone more than one escort.
The damage bonus I get from EPtW2 in no way makes up for the lackluster damage from beams, and in no way makes up for losing nearly over half of my survivability for 10 seconds. Before you got the extra weapon power for the full 30 seconds, but only increased damage for 5. Now you get both for only 20. I haven't tested the numbers entirely yet, but losing that amount of weapon power for 10 seconds would seem to me to either equal to the same amount of damage, or in fact be less in the long run.
As a fed engineer in a cruiser, I so no reason to continue what so ever. This is not me being overly dramatic, but simply relaying my concerns. We cannot do enough damage to make up for not being able to survive anymore. This change removes our role entirely. If your team wanted to focus on the healing cruiser before, you were going to pay for it by exposing your escorts. Now, cruisers should be and will be now the prime target. Since they cannot do enough damage to detour anyone from attacking them, nor can they survive anymore, we simply have no role anymore.
I understand you are trying things to make other abilities more effective, and that is fine, but this is not the way to do it.
For starters, please let the POWER from EPtX powers last the entire 30 seconds, but only 20 seconds on its resist, engine speed, weapon damage etc. That would at least make the resist from 125 shields still apply, so it wont be such a huge spike in received damage.
Still, I definitely agree that there are too many abilities that have uptimes, short CDs, etc, etc, etc. It's more like a pseudo action fantasy MMO than a space MMO with much of the design.
The concept of abilities with "uptimes" and "cooldowns" is ALREADY a silly fantasy MMO concept rather than spacey concept. I should not have to constantly EPTx at all! I should simply be able to EPTx, and it will remain so, probably causing all the lights to go out on the ship in the process, until I either stop doing so, or I run out of emergency power. Which, if this power comes from things we don't really need, like the lights, might not actually happen. I shouldn't have to mash EMERGENCY POWER every 15/30 seconds as a constant reminder that yes, I'd still rather have shields than lights and the transdigital freon converter.
Similarly, abilities like "rip holes in space with my space rippy thingy" should not be on a "cooldown": I should be able to rip holes in space any time my space-hole-ripper is powered up, and if I want this to happen faster, I should give it power, because otherwise it doesn't happen. The entire concept of "cooldowns" is silly.
Nonetheless, this is the system we appear to be stuck with and it is far too late to change it. Bridge Commander, this ain't.
I had spent the better part of 5 months trying to build a DPS cruiser for PvP as an engineer. After a while, I finally gave up and turned my attention to filling the role it was meant to fill, and that it a tank. I used to get angry as my friends would laugh as they could just sit still, and I couldn't kill them. After making the switch, they get just as angry at me because they can't kill me. Yeah sure, I still don't hurt them at all, but I have my ship set up to heal myself as well as everyone else, so it makes everyone happy.
Ok as fellow cruiser tank I'd like to ask you about your build, what abilities, hull resistances, ship, you have? if your not getting over 40% base hull resistances then I can understand why you maybe dieing so fast once they strip your shields...
Its also wise to use hull heals to, heal any penetrated damage through your shields as well as use various abilities to get a safe distance away if you get in dire straights, as well as popping brace for impact, and other hull resists ect when shields are down.
Apparently us engineers will be getting some added benefit to eptx abilities soon, according to the dev in the patch thread, hopefully it's added duration or lessened cooldown. Likely they are changing our traits...hopefully the eps efficiency one.
The concept of abilities with "uptimes" and "cooldowns" is ALREADY a silly fantasy MMO concept rather than spacey concept. I should not have to constantly EPTx at all! I should simply be able to EPTx, and it will remain so, probably causing all the lights to go out on the ship in the process, until I either stop doing so, or I run out of emergency power. Which, if this power comes from things we don't really need, like the lights, might not actually happen. I shouldn't have to mash EMERGENCY POWER every 15/30 seconds as a constant reminder that yes, I'd still rather have shields than lights and the transdigital freon converter.
Similarly, abilities like "rip holes in space with my space rippy thingy" should not be on a "cooldown": I should be able to rip holes in space any time my space-hole-ripper is powered up, and if I want this to happen faster, I should give it power, because otherwise it doesn't happen. The entire concept of "cooldowns" is silly.
Nonetheless, this is the system we appear to be stuck with and it is far too late to change it. Bridge Commander, this ain't.
I cannot possibly express how much I disagree with this line of thinking.
Let me simply tell you as a professional industrial and diesel mechanic that "cooldowns" and "durations" are actually a much more realistic way to represent these sorts of abilities in a scientific/realistic way. Any man made system, whether mechanical, electronic, hydraulic or otherwise, is engineered with certain assumptions about the kind of load it will be under. Exceeding that sort of load is almost always possible, but comes with certain risks and drawbacks that become intolerable over time.
If you red line an engine for too long, you'll overheat or lose proper lubrication. If you abuse your brakes, they'll get hot, and if you abuse them more, they'll glaze, reducing their friction potential. If you raise voltage to push a higher currency through a circuit you'll first raise the temperature of the circuit, which will create greater resistance, which will lead to even more heat, until something melts or software fails because a voltage or current goes out of proper range. Put too much tension on a chain and it will stretch or snap. You get the idea.
You can only push something past its intended load, or use it in an unintended way (abuse) for a limited amount of time before the risk of failure becomes certainty of failure.
BoFF powers are almost entirely based on pushing hardware past its normal limits or tasking to do things it's not normally designed for. It's perfectly realistic that this use and abuse would come with time limits and cooldowns. Even in the shows and movies, we routinely see engineering telling the captain that a certain creative use of the deflector or some other system can only be done once before it needs to be repaired, or for only so long before it needs to recharge or cool down. This is literally the meaning behind a "cooldown" mechanic, and it applies in the fictional 25th century just as it has applied since the dawn of time.
Ok as fellow cruiser tank I'd like to ask you about your build, what abilities, hull resistances, ship, you have? if your not getting over 40% base hull resistances then I can understand why you maybe dieing so fast once they strip your shields...
Its also wise to use hull heals to, heal any penetrated damage through your shields as well as use various abilities to get a safe distance away if you get in dire straights, as well as popping brace for impact, and other hull resists ect when shields are down.
Apparently us engineers will be getting some added benefit to eptx abilities soon, according to the dev in the patch thread, hopefully it's added duration or lessened cooldown. Likely they are changing our traits...hopefully the eps efficiency one.
I began using the Fleet heavy cruiser for the ability to cycle EPtS3, but I just couldn't handle the horrid hull and terrible interia of that ship.
I currently run with the Fleet Excelsior
tac team 1 (with purple doffs) APB, BO3
EPtS1, ES1, EPts3, Aux2SiF3
EPtW1, RSP
EPtW1 or ET1
HE1, TSS2
Using DCE (3 purples) for the chance to trigger EPtS3, which works quite well because I have 2 chances for it to trigger when hitting it, and EPtW1.
6 points in threat control, 6 in Armor reinforcements
I have just over 40% in resist.
Running at 80 Weapon power, 70 shield, and when cycling EPtS and EPtW, I would get 125 in each.
Yes I do hit brace for impact, as well as SFM when I need to.
A fully buffed tac escort has no trouble popping me like a balloon in that 10 second gap. Especially anyone who cloaks. Just wait for the gap, alpha, and pop.
6 points in threat control, 6 in Armor reinforcements
I have just over 40% in resist.
Running at 80 Weapon power, 70 shield, and when cycling EPtS and EPtW, I would get 125 in each.
Yes I do hit brace for impact, as well as SFM when I need to.
A fully buffed tac escort has no trouble popping me like a balloon in that 10 second gap. Especially anyone who cloaks. Just wait for the gap, alpha, and pop.
Why don't you drop the DCE Doffs for something more useful. Having them just so you get a higher proc chance to cooldown EPtS3 is inefficient.
Off the top of my head:
- Brace for Impact Doffs for shield heals
- Warp Core Engineer for power bonus
- DCE Doff variant with Aux2SIF HoT
Why don't you drop the DCE Doffs for something more useful. Having them just so you get a higher proc chance to cooldown EPtS3 is inefficient.
Off the top of my head:
- Brace for Impact Doffs for shield heals
- Warp Core Engineer for power bonus
- DCE Doff variant with Aux2SIF HoT
No.
I find it incredibly useful. Having the opportunity to have EPtS3 up at all times without having to slot a second copy of it is far more beneficial to me than to have a chance to get a small shield heal every time I hit BFI.
Constant uptime on EPtS3 means I don't need the shield heal. And with the change, it is still not a viable option given the CD on BFI
If you red line an engine for too long, you'll overheat or lose proper lubrication. If you abuse your brakes, they'll get hot, and if you abuse them more, they'll glaze, reducing their friction potential.
And yet in battle, this is precisely what you do. You take risks. You abuse equipment. War isn't safe.
If you raise voltage to push a higher currency through a circuit you'll first raise the temperature of the circuit, which will create greater resistance, which will lead to even more heat, until something melts or software fails because a voltage or current goes out of proper range. Put too much tension on a chain and it will stretch or snap. You get the idea.
I'm not seeing the drawback. In SFB, you could HET anytime you wanted. There was no hard cooldown saying you could not. You just ran the risk you'd break something. But you know what? This is war.
BoFF powers are almost entirely based on pushing hardware past its normal limits or tasking to do things it's not normally designed for.
I am not sure that is entirely true: Many of these functionalities, like, say, "using the tractor beam", without which your ship apparently does not even have a tractor beam, seem to be well within normal usage.
It's perfectly realistic that this use and abuse would come with time limits and cooldowns.
Given that the behavior as listed can be sustained indefinitely, it doesn't seem terribly abusive.
It is also worth noting that for some reason, all of this equipment can perform all these functions seemingly for free, without any opportunity cost beyond the powers that mysteriously share cooldowns. I don't have to put any power towards running the tractor beam to yoink someone. But I can only tractor for a few seconds out of a few more seconds. I can't just tractor until I break something or run out of power.
In comparison, SFC did not have this: I could tractor an opponent anytime I wished to, as long as I wished to pay for the power needed to operate the tractor beam, which would come at the cost of some other thing I could be using that power on. This is not true here. Here, even though I have a perfectly functioning tractor beam thingy, I can't tractor a guy because I just tractored him. The addition of a second tractor beam operator somehow enables me to tractor slightly more, but I can still tractor only for limited times...for free. It doesn't cost me anything else to run the tractor beam. This is not how things were on the show, either.
Based on your explanations, you essentially agree with me. Only my position is that the cost and risks should be something put in the hands of the player to make, whereas you want to babysit him and keep him from breaking parts of his own ship through abuse.
Doffing, I'm not sure if you're extremely dense or just trying to troll me, but if you read my post as in any way agreeing with you, then you need to read it a few more times.
I'll simplify it for you:
You: "Cooldowns and durations are unrealistic, these powers should be toggles instead, because that's more realistic"
Me: "No, cooldowns and durations are more realistic. Here are a dozen real life examples to illustrate."
If you overload a circuit, it LITERALLY can only be done for a certain *duration* before it literally has to *cool down* (that is, it must dissipate heat). Understand? Cooldowns and durations aren't merely an arbitrary game mechanic when you're talking about physical systems on a starship, as they are when you're talking about super hero powers or magic spells, etc.
The fact that these units in STO are discreet, measurable and predictable is a bit of an abstraction, based in part on just reducing randomness and based in part of the idea that your BoFFs are hyper capable beings who know things that normal beings couldn't possibly know in real time, like exactly how long you can red line a system before it absolutely must cool down.
Could they abstract this instead with a toggle that filled some kind of "danger meter" for each system with an increasing chance of failure as the meter filled? Maybe, but that would be an overly complicated system which wouldn't very well represent a captain giving orders to his crew so much as a captain simultaneously manning every station on his ship.
I'm not seeing the drawback. In SFB, you could HET anytime you wanted. There was no hard cooldown saying you could not. You just ran the risk you'd break something. But you know what? This is war.
Whether you could do something in SFB or not is completely irrelevant. 1) SFB isn't some kind of rigorous simulation of reality and 2) This isn't SFB. Whatever design decisions were made in one game might have been bad decisions or they might have simply been good decisions within that particular game. Again, totally irrelevant in this case.
I am not sure that is entirely true: Many of these functionalities, like, say, "using the tractor beam", without which your ship apparently does not even have a tractor beam, seem to be well within normal usage.
Every ship has tractor beams. Only ships with science officers capable of amplifying them and skillfully using them for unintended purposes are able to wield them as a combat power. That abuse of their intended purpose and/or overload of the circuit requires a cooldown and a duration considerably less than "always on."
Given that the behavior as listed can be sustained indefinitely, it doesn't seem terribly abusive.
Given that they're explicitly changing it so that it can't be always on, they apparently disagree. The new design more closely matches a real world model than an "always on" toggle would.
It is also worth noting that for some reason, all of this equipment can perform all these functions seemingly for free, without any opportunity cost beyond the powers that mysteriously share cooldowns.
The opportunity cost is that it's not available for use while it cools down, and it requires the special attention of highly skilled officers to execute.
I don't have to put any power towards running the tractor beam to yoink someone. But I can only tractor for a few seconds out of a few more seconds. I can't just tractor until I break something or run out of power.
You run out of the ability to put power to that system, because the circuitry is overheated, failsafes activate and need to be reset, and so on.
In comparison, SFC did not have this: I could tractor an opponent anytime I wished to, as long as I wished to pay for the power needed to operate the tractor beam, which would come at the cost of some other thing I could be using that power on.
Great, but that's not a more realistic model. It's built on the assumption that equipment has no limitations except the amount of power you can feed it, which is simply impossible for a physical component. Overclocking your CPU doesn't just require more power, it actually overheats and wears out the processor. Even with the best cooling technology there's still an upper limit to the frequency that the thing can operate at or how much current can physically pass through it. Running your engine past the red line doesn't just use more gas and oil, it risks melting the engine or components of the engine. A runaway diesel engine (where injectors stay open, for example) can destroy itself in less than 5 seconds, easily.
The only thing we essentially agree on is that things can be abstracted. For some reason you insist that one form of abstraction is more realistic, when it simply isn't.
If you overload a circuit, it LITERALLY can only be done for a certain *duration* before it literally has to *cool down* (that is, it must dissipate heat).
Hah, if it were literally a heat dissipation issue, there are always ways around it. That's what the emergency coolant supply is for. But some of these are far more baffling and cryptic, really...
The fact that these units in STO are discreet, measurable and predictable is a bit of an abstraction, based in part on just reducing randomness and based in part of the idea that your BoFFs are hyper capable beings who know things that normal beings couldn't possibly know in real time, like exactly how long you can red line a system before it absolutely must cool down.
That is indeed quite an impressive feat of knowledge, considering that every individual instance of a system will behave differently when its tolerances are exceeded, and don't all fail simultaneously at a fixed point.
Could they abstract this instead with a toggle that filled some kind of "danger meter" for each system with an increasing chance of failure as the meter filled? Maybe
Interestingly, a lot of games actually do this. In cases where literal overheating is the issue, there is often a heat meter that runs up, and as your system progressively overheats, bad stuff starts happening...and you get to decide how far you're willing risk exploding to avoid exploding.
As someone who has professionally dealt in both sides of this issue, I can assure you it is not as cut and dried as it appears to you, who has probably never been placed in a situation where, having designed a piece of equipment with known tolerances and points of failure, must now deliberately exceed those tolerances or else you will die horribly anyway. In these cases it is often not a question of when the system will fail, but how they will fail, and whether these modes of failure are better than the alternatives.
Consider the alternatives: Suppose Emergency Power to Shields wasn't just a magic spell cast upon shields, but actually drew upon some supply of emergency power that could be depleted or overdrawn, or overstressed the shield generators in ways that would eventually result in efficiency loss and failure. Then the player could run the thing at 100% uptime for a bit if he wanted, but at some point something would run out or break. This is certainly better than a yo-yo mechanic of up again, down again, over and over...a behavior which IS likely terrible for system: Turn something on and off over and over again and you'll kill it far faster than overloading it slightly.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Nothing's going to change, at least not for the better, and the in-game effects of this change are precisely the opposite of what they were meant to address.
Engineers in cruisers have had to beat their head against a wall trying to be damage dealers in pvp. Most people who have stuck with Eng cruisers long enough have finally accepted the role that they are only ever going to be tank healers. Now that we have accepted that, you take away our ability to be tanks, which gets us killed, which makes unable to heal.
The deterrent of a cruiser to keep an escort away was not the cruisers ability to do damage or hold or repel them, but to make them have to waste their time trying to kill us, thus exposing them to attack. Now it is no longer a waste of time as a cruiser can be brought down quite effortlessly inside a 10 second window.
I indeed have gone to tribble and tested this in a group pvp setting. The change seemed negligible at first, until it took people roughly 5 minutes to realize they just needed to time their strikes in that gap and pop, no more cruiser. Even myself trying to time my RSF, TSS2, BFI and SFM in those gaps was not nearly enough to offset the loss of shield power level resist and EPtS3.
So if you take away the role you have pigeon-holed us into, so now what the hell are we supposed to do
exactly?
If you are going to keep this change, then you seriously need to nerf DHC or fix beam damage or something. Because this, this is the final nail in the coffin for cruisers with eng captains.
Here's a suggestion that can make these changes not be 100% biased towards escorts while at the same time nailing the coffin on cruisers and science ships (current tribble changes literally up escort damage 400% while making sci/cruiser shields be completely vulnerable for 10 seconds guaranteed).
The solution: Have every Emg2X ability impart two 'buffs' when clicked rather than a 'universal' one.
Emergency to Weapons:
Imparts one beam weapon buff and one cannon weapon buff. Cannon buff has damage bonus last 5 seconds with a +5% damage bonus over the current amount. Beam weapon bonus is the 20 seconds damage buff.
Result: Beam weaponry receives the most bonus from this ability and it can bring beams into functional parity with the heavier dual cannons. Parity meaning that while the cannons retain their high damage as a spike damage hit, the beams now are able to be good at delivering good damage over time. Spike Vs Over-Time parity.
Yes, a ship with cannons and beams equipped receives the bonuses for both weapons.
Emergency to Engines:
This ability gives the ship its bonus based on hull type. If escort it provides a large power boost to engine power with a small boost in speed. If science ship, cruiser or carrier it provides a large turn rate boost with a small engine power boost and a decent speed boost.
Result: Escorts get their bonus speed without being a direct boost which would insanely increase their defense rating. Increased engine power would then provide a speed boost that is dependent on the captain's skill points in impulse and engine boxes. Sci,Cruisers and Carriers get turn rate bonus which is a godsend to them along with a decent increase in speed for the 20 second duration. Their defense is not boosted but they can now turn decently for a short time... very much like an excelsior using aux2dampeners now.
Emergency to Aux:
Sci and Cruiser would get a timer reduction to over-time healing abilities like hazard and transfer shield strength and extend shields...and escorts should receive a reduction in weapon power cost (weapon power resistance I think is the effect?) during those 20 seconds. I'm thinking if emg2wep 2 is used the dual heavy cannon power cost would go from 12 down to 9 type of reduction.
Emergency to Shields:
Should be hull based buff as well and should impart 2 different buffs per hull type.
Escorts receive a 20 second duration large buff to shield resists and reduces shield bleedthrough by 2% per tier. Aka tier Emg to Shields 2= 4% bleedthrough reduction. No shield regen bonus.
Sci ships and cruisers receive a 30 second duration very large buff to shield regen rate and a large buff to shield resists.
All hull types receive = power bonus to shield power.
This makes escorts able to 'toughen up' before an attack run but do not have shield healing power imparted by the ability..instead their shield bleedthrough is decreased. Sci ships and cruisers receive a generous bonus to shield regeneration rate and to shield resists for longer duration which enables them to tank for a change.
I would also like to ask a new emergency power to- ability be added:
Emergency Power to Deflector
This power does what the devs originally intended the emg2aux do: It grants direct bonus to stats.
For sci ships and cruisers it would increase graviton/particle/subspace decompiler/countermeasures/sensor/flow capacitor skill and reduce the timer on abilities that use those stats.
For escorts, the emg 2 deflector should give a bonus to targeting, stealth, sensors and subspace decompiler and reduce the timer
Result: Sci and escorts up their tanking and hull-type role defining stats and escorts receive bonuses to their own role-definining abilities without it being a direct increase in damage.. both ships receive bonus to their utility skills.
Comments
It gives me about a turn rate of 11.1 at full impulse when used
well, every single kill will happen in that 10 seconds, guarantied. if your a slow mover, and your tanking focus fire, and suddenly your shields start taking twice or 3 times as much damage for an entire 10 seconds, you know what that feels like? getting subnuked. your not going to have TSS or RSP ready every time that hole comes up, and if your not in an escort, your cant just crank up the speed and avoid damage
every non fail escort will speed tank, watching his chosen target's EPtS count down from 20, and use his 10 second long CRF, and any otehr spike, to hit during that perfectly sized 10 second window. if he uses RSP, oh well, he wont have it next time. if just has TT, that wont save him, not with his shields taking at least 25% more damage. TSS might help, but unless you have room for 2 of them thier coverage of your weaken shields will be spotty.
this removes slow movers healing attrition, and gives them nothing in return. they are simply more vulnerable, and no more able to defend them selves offensively. an escort can stay glued to a cruiser with no fear of its damage, 10 seconds is not enough time for a cruisers pressure to seriously harm an escort. if its damage was substantial enough to do that for 10 seconds, it would be called spike.
escorts dont have to guess what to do, dont have to rely on sci to make openings, the game has been modified so its easier for escort users to kill things, on their own, with no help. they also nerfed EPtS in a way that effects them the least. the EPtW change nerfs cruisers that actually need all that power it gives. escorts dont, their weapons dont drain tham below 90, they just want that 20 second long damage multiplier. so, another buff to escorts and a nerf to cruisers.
here is the problem with the game right now
- pressure damage is dead, no mater how strong it is it cant out pace basic heal cycleing, and needs a LONG time before it even has a chance too, like in a dual. any ship who's weapons arent DHC, a DBB for BO, or a build that revolves around shield penetrating torp damage or DOT, might as well not bother shooting. beam arrays, single cannons, dual cannons, and dual beam banks without BO dont do anything anymore.
action taken- nerf EPtW for pressure damage dealers, buff it for spikers
-the game's rouges can wear the fighters full plate and use its great sword. this games fighter can ether go into battle with a shield and just his fist (eng), or dual wield dagers (tac). this games rouge has only a slight con penalty over this games fighter, has incredible acrobatic feets, and suffers no encumbrance from using the great sword or plate armor
action taken- the breast plate falls off every 20 seconds. the rouge can acrobatically avoid damage though so this is not much of a problem for the rouge, unless it is grappled
- the game is too yoyo with on and off spike and cross healing grated invincibility or subnuked donwn to nothing and being paper thin. the difference between buffed and unbuffed is so huge that the only way to kill often enough is with a removal of the buffs. only yoyos work, nothing in between has any effect, pressure cant cause any sort of reaction.
action taken- this game's control wizard had curses that made everyone's armor fall off, but now the armor falls of on its own, lowering the need for curses, or his presence at all. the players didn't seem to be causing yoyos enough on their own, stupid players, so we replaced what is the most fundamental baseline passive ability with 1 that has as big a yoyo hole in it as we could think up.
how about changes that benifit everyone more equally, and dont doom certain ship types? how about that? would that be ok?
cut the bonus to res of EPtS in half, have it last 30 seconds like always, and drop the emergency part from the name, you bunch of RPers seem to have a big problem with that. also remove the resA/B mod from elite shields, replace it with a cap mod on all currently in use elite shields.
for the rest of the EPt skills, 30 second durations, so EPtW isn't a nerf for cruisers and just a buff to escorts.
fix the 1000000 stealth sight bug on EPtA, and its fine
make EPtE primarily a turn rate buffer, not a speed buffer. escorts dont need to be made more speedy then they are now, just the engine power is enough. they actually need to be less speedy, avoidance is already better then actual tanking. buffing turn rate a FLAT amount would benefit slow turners more then already fast turners, something also needed.
overall, there would be a bit of an invincible shield nerf, an increase in cruiser damage levels, escorts, and most of all the bug, not being able to zip around at hyper speed so freely, and evul cloakers wont have as much freedom.
or you could have a built in spike exploit, and... well thats pretty much it. thats all the game will be, a 10 second hole in EPtS coverage, not needing a sci to get it, just escorts lazily dumping 4 cannons worth of damage through paper thin shields, winning the day, well and truly invalidating every other choice of ship or captain type as valid.
That is not an accurate way to to determine weapon DPS. I ran my own tests at Starbase 234. Started the combatlog at the beginning of the mission and ended it when the Starbase was no longer targetable. I made three runs on both Tribble and Redshirt. I used my Tank build which chained EPtW2. FAW2 was also used (with 2 Energy Weapon Doffs - Beam Special Cooldown), as the build uses it normally in combat. For the weapons, I used 7 Spiral Wave Disruptors and 1 Kinetic Cutting Beam. The Beam Array DPS listed is only for the Spiral Wave Disruptors. I also re-copied my character to Tribble to get rid of the new traits.
Redshirt Run 1: EncDPS - 4425.32, Beam Array DPS - 2009.21, FAW2 DPS - 1973.95
Redshirt Run 2: EncDPS - 4712.44, Beam Array DPS - 2004.11, FAW2 DPS - 2224.54
Redshirt Run 3: EncDPS - 4822.33, Beam Array DPS - 1957.32, FAW2 DPS - 2355.79
Tribble Run 1: EncDPS - 4717.66, Beam Array DPS - 1769.01, FAW2 DPS - 2536.43
Tribble Run 2: EncDPS - 4779.64, Beam Array DPS - 1947.19, FAW2 DPS - 2409.44
Tribble Run 3: EncDPS - 4701.11, Beam Array DPS - 1911.38, FAW2 DPS - 2314.92
Redshirt Avg: EncDPS - 4653.36, Beam Array DPS - 1990.21, FAW2 DPS - 2184.76
Tribble Avg: EncDPS - 4732.80, Beam Array DPS - 1875.86, FAW2 DPS - 2420.26
There doesn't seem to be a discernible difference between the two.
There are many other tanking powers or heals people can use: miracle worker, RPS, RSF, TT, APD, Aux to sif, aux to damp, TSS, HE, elite fleet shields ... And i'm not counting the control/confuse powers, blocking your opponent so that he can't do any damage to you. This isn't a "nerf omg we're doomed", this is a change about how us, players, will be able to tank after this update. Yes many people will have to update their builds and not using the lazy EPTS3 x2 stupid macro to be unkillable.
There are DOZENS of alternatives. Dozens. You guys just need to figure out that there's something beyond permabuffed tanks and that you can do it with careful planning.
It's definitely not about RP, it's about buffs. No buff, except this one and the elite fleet shields, has a 100% uptime. This is just fairness.
Elite fleet shields are like a free EPTS3 with a 100% uptime anyway. I hope you can understand that and get that it shouldn't be possible to have something like 2x EPTS3 active at the same time. There's no fun here, unless you like having people ignoring anyone attacking them and tanking 5 players quietly with a zombie macro. :rolleyes:
So: no pve issue. Problem solved.
Getting elite fleet gear: it's better than the nerfedd buff. Problem solved.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
So what about those of us that are not engineers? No RSF, no MW none of that plot device PvP magic you're carrying around. You don't even understand how to properly calculate your own shield resist (well you do now thanks to a kind Sad Panda) and you're trying to justify your position against the best PvP players in the game.
Who do run the numbers.
Who do use excel.
Who have always provided excellent advice to the community.
I have read every post you've made on this matter, and I have to agree with DDIS and the Pandas. Your play style may not be affected but others will be. Adversely.
Ah at last someone admits that it's not ruining the game, it's ruining some existing builds. Some. Including mine on a couple of chars. I like to see how much conservative pvp-focused players are in most games. This one is no different.
And for the record, my main is a sci, n?2 is a tac, and my eng is only my 3rd char, even if i mostly pvp with it. I'm only using my experience and rough estimates (it's always been enough to be successful in this game) to show people that there's not just one possibility and that change isn't that bad. Can you do that instead of complaining for once?
Ok if you're so good at pvp here is a challenge for you: finding an alternative build allowing you to tank with the current tribble change. Just imagine for the next 5 minutes that this is here to stay and that it's not going to be reversed. Since you're obviously convinced that you're better than me you should have no trouble doing that. :rolleyes:
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Shortened for brevity sake. It isn't about being better. I just disagree with the premise of your argument. The vast majority of your posts are based from an engineer class perspective. This leads me to believe that you have not considered all the implications of this change.
In 3 years, since you want to compare alternates... I've got a science, an engineer and 3 tacticals. :rolleyes:
Also that .9 you asked about allows for resistance to diminish in return so that a player can never reach a perfect "invulnerable state" where all damage is resisted. The formula was actually given by a Dev. Named SNIX when cryptic rebalanced the EptX powers almost 2 years ago. The logic on how hull tanking works is also just as counter intuitive.
And yes I am already working around this bad design choice, it's only prudent.
I think what really needs to be done is to rewrite the Defense algorithm to make it less effective than it currently is.
The core problem is that EPTS is mandatory, most people maintain a 100% uptime with it. It also overshadows all other EPTX skills, rendering them useless. The devs are attempting to make all of these skills attractive, and make the use of EPTX a conscious decision based on the cirumstances. This change is an attempt to do this, so I support it, even though it will make tanking harder for me. I'd rather if they gave the same resists at all levels and improved and improved duration instead, so that escorts could use it for their bursty style gameplay while cruisers got more sustain from it, but whatever.
Those people that say they'd prefer their low level skills to be "boring and reliable": we already have those. They are the passive skills you select for your captain. They define your general strengths and weaknesses. Abilities are supposed to be just that. Things that you actually do.
Any ability that is typically found in a macro chain is probably a poorly designed ability. If there is no situation in which I wouldn't want to use an ability, may as well make it a passive and be done with it. At the moment EPTS, TT1 and CRF are prime examples of this.
People have said that escorts will simply wait until cruisers use EPTS, and then nail them in the cooldown. So why does a cruiser need to use Emergency Power to Shields to withstand regular unbuffed fire from an escort in the first place? What other tools do Sci/Eng have to mitigate damage or plug the gap in EPTS?
Personally I hope to see a day where there are parts of this game that cannot be sustain tanked, and that will REQUIRE cross-heal/resist, rotating damage amongst team members and Sci vessels debuffing targets while cruisers Extend Shields on escorts while they do their bursty attack run. For me this is what a fight against a borg cube should have been from the start.
That's not very efficient. You end up creating additional problems. You do not take into account how the various changes may interact with something already in the game or something that is going to be added in the near future.
Is the current issue a massively gamebreaking issue that has resulted in the game not being playable? No. Then it's not an emergency and doesn't require the use of Emergency Power to Hurried Fixes.
They've shared this early - so folks can get some feedback in. Much of that feedback acknowledges there is an issue and it needs to be addressed - but - this change doesn't address it.
First of all, it is not mandatory. Second of all, if the core problem is that some people believe that EPtS is mandatory - then the problem is not EPtS - the problem is what is causing people to feel that EPtS is mandatory. That is what should be addressed then, no?
See, an example of where the change as a solution for the problem identified by certain people is not even a solution to the problem they have identified. A reason not to rush into things...eh?
There's little doubt that EPtS > EPt* for a vast number of people out there. Some will even 2x EPtS rather than run a different EPtX ability. Thing is, is it really a case that the others need to be buffed out the wahzoo? Would that in turn not just create that feeling that the other is..."needed"...much like EPtS was originally?
It's about opportunity cost - about the desire to min/max in a given situation - and those situations, those scenarios, actually existing where the various abilities could each find themselves more desired (dare one say "needed") compared to the others.
Imagine that a scenario existed where EPtE was the most desired. EPtA? EPtW? That if a person was looking at a certain build to do a certain thing - that at any given time, each of the four EPtX abilities might actually be the most desired ability to have.
Personally, as an "Emergency" ability - I'd say they should be redesigned in such a manner where perhaps they are most desired because that is where a particular ship may feel weakest. But that's just me...so yeah, whatever.
Hrmmm, to an extent - well, bah - that's kind of nitpicking semantics on my part. No doubt one could easily consider it a macro chain - but it's not really a macro. You don't hit the one button and it does everything. You have to hit the button repeatedly. It's multibinding - multiple commands to the same key, etc, etc, etc.
So yes, there's definitely a problem with an ability if it's something that you really don't think about and have slapped on your "spam" button.
A macro on the other hand, so to speak... say something like this:
EPS PT, NI, TT, APO, BO, THY, Hyperflux, Experimental Beam, Omega Torp
That's not something you're just mindlessly spamming. It's actually a form of player created Attack Pattern, eh? Attack Pattern Virus Green! /cough Um, yeah.
Some people will create multibinds in attempts to create macro chains. Say they hit the "KEY" once for the THY and they hit it a second time for the actual Torp.
So yeah, just a little nitpicking on my part, my apologies for that. Just think there's a difference between binds like that binds that just spam from a list of abilities that may not be on CD at the moment sort of thing.
Can't really just look at it as far as what tools Sci/Eng have. If you're looking at a Cruiser, you have to look at it as far as what can any of the Careers do in such a situation during that gap - what innate abilities do they have - what BOFF abilities might they have available to them...that sort of thing.
Something to keep in mind with that as well, mind you, is while there is a lot of talk about the 10s gap with 2x EPtS - folks with a single EPtS are looking at a 25s gap - those with EPtS/EPtX are looking at a 10-25s gap. So yeah, the coverage time is going to vary.
And before I go on, notice how it's still a case of talking about the EPtS? So how was the problem of EPtS being "needed" addressed then? Didn't this change just maintain that problem while creating the additional problem of what to do during that 10-25s gap? Tada, that's one of the reasons some folks are downing the change...not because they do not feel there needs to be a change - just that this change doesn't make any sense.
But yeah anyway, to cover that gap - it will require some folks to change their builds. This brings to the forefront a glaring issue in the game though...that's the balance in regard to ships. Grab two ships - say a Bug and a Fleet Regent or Fleet Excelsior. Maximize both of them for damage - which actually has more survivability? Odd, eh? It's also the one with the most damage. Okay, so you try to increase the survivability of the lesser one...means you're also going to be getting that much further behind in damage.
Just an example of how there are so many things that need to be balanced in the game - core things - before they get into balancing things such as abilities. It's one of the reasons that changes to things like that often result in unexpected consequences.
Really? Cause...you know...they didn't have magic wand healing in Star Trek. They never had spidertanking in Star Trek. Why should that be in a game with the name Star Trek Online? Personally, I hope to see the day where they remove all the silly healing...boost buffer...look at resists...and balance damage appropriately at that point.
It has become manditory because of the insanely powerful sustain it provides via the increase to resistance and the stupid strong passive regeneration it provides thanks to shield power design. I have long advocated simply removing regeneration boosting from shield power but hey this will help cut that down anyway.
That is a bad comparison. Try the Galor vs Bug to make it a bit more even and in that situation the Galor should have the higher defense when dealing sustained damage due to it being easier to keep defense bonus. Since I only own one of those two ships though and am lazy I will not atm bother to actually do the math but I would likely still give the galor the overall defensive advantage but the bug without a doubt much higher spike damage.
Now when you want to talk about silly strong escort tanks you need look no futher than the Akira or JHEC but those are exceptions when using specific doffs to get silly with builds.
In the past, yes. What they dont realize is that they could make a space sci trait that could act as a Percentage-Based modifier to improve CC powers, increasing them by 100%, thus doubling the hold/slow CC effect.
As it stands, -.51 is ridiculous. It cant even hold a cruiser.
I acknowledge that EPTS being considered (almost) mandatory is actually caused by other factors. The main one that comes to mind is the general "flat" damage coming from enemies (such as cubes), rather than manageable spikes or patterns that players can actually play against (like Donatra). However, they will become obvious once the EPTS crutch is fixed. I strongly suspect another of those factors is actually just skill and playstyle. People flat out expect to be able to sustain tank some of the toughest enemies in the game solo, and I'm not sure that's reasonable.
Totally agree. I'd like to see EPTE to get out of a Donatra/Tholian deathray, EPTW as a last ditch Nanite Sphere buster, EPTA to really shove that Sabotaging ship a long way away. But at the moment they just don't seem good enough to get players using them. I agree they can be used to patch up weak areas of a ship, but I'd also suggest that letting them be used on areas of strength by pushing past power cap. A tac will already be running capped weapon power, so EPTW is pretty unattractive. Maybe we could fix that.
I will try and use the term multibinding in future, to avoid confusion, but my point stands. This game has too many abilities that have high uptimes, lots of pros and no cons.
I'd love to know peoples thoughts on these things then. Lots of people saying "this change will break my build", not "they should change this instead". I suspect half the people will say "fix the speed defence first", then the other half will say "don't touch that", and we'll get nowhere fast. I myself only run a single copy of EPTS, and find that more than sufficient for ESTFs with fleetmates. So I'm not overly terrified of this change myself.
Actually there were multiple instances of ships extending their shields to protect others in the TV series, all the way from TNG to VOY. Shield healing/boosting was very common, however they weren't quite the same mechanics as we get ingame. I've gotta say that the idea of Extend Shields being a bubble effect so that a cruiser/science could shepherd in a couple of escorts behind strong shields is awesome. I agree with you that hull repairing was definitely not common and should be toned down in the game, but defence-oriented teamwork should not.
Don't have to use that term in the least - heck, I'm not sure I had heard it before using it there - was just trying to use a descriptive term. Was mainly just trying to differentiate some of the things people might be using somewhat similar methods to do different things.
Kind of like the following two, eh?
"+TrayExecByTray 9 0 $$ +TrayExecByTray 9 1 $$ GenSendMessage HUD_Root FireTorps $$ +power_exec Distribute_Shields"
"+TrayExecByTray 1 3 $$ +TrayExecByTray 1 4"
The first one is a typical wear the spacebar out distributing shields, firing weapons, and cycling those two EPtX abilities. Sheer mindless spammage.
The second one on the other hand is a typical "Weapon Ability" then "Weapon" thing. It's just a case of having a keybind to do two things with a doubletap - rather than having to hit two keys or click two things on the bar. It's not a mindless spammage thing.
Sure, some folks will drop that in the spacebar spambind - but it was just a nitpick thing like I said - wasn't meant to be a big thing...just a minor thing.
Still, I definitely agree that there are too many abilities that have uptimes, short CDs, etc, etc, etc. It's more like a pseudo action fantasy MMO than a space MMO with much of the design.
I was mainly talking about the magic wand nature of it in STO compared to the shows/movies.
Think about the names of some of the abilities, eh? They sound like things from the show, but they don't work that way.
Extend Shields - yep - actually a case of extending shields. The shield strength of the one ship was extended to another ship. It wasn't a case of magically producing additional shield strength out of nowhere for that other ship. If ExS actually worked like the shows/movies and even how the name itself sounds - that would be nifty.
Transfer Shield Strength - yep - actually a case of transferring shield strength. The shield strength of the one ship was transferred to another ship. The one ship sacrificed some of their own shield strength to transfer it to the other. It wasn't a case of magically producing additional shield strength out of nowhere for that other ship. If TSS actually worked the like the shows/movies and even how the name itself sounds - that would be nifty.
Tactical Team, Engineering Team, Science Team...wtf? Yeah, it would be one thing if it were actually a case of sending shuttles or beaming teams through shield frequencies with the required codes - so they could help out, repair things over times, get stuff going again, etc, etc, etc - but they're not...they're just more magic wand healing stuff.
Then you get into things like AtS - major magic wand, eh?
Yes, there's no doubt that ships could provide support to each other - and - if that was available in the game, that would be awesome (imho). The magic wand healing - healing things that ships would spend weeks if not months getting repaired in a second...er...not so awesome.
I'd definitely prefer more buffer - less resistance - less magic wand healing - more healing over time - more repairing critical damage type things like you might see in an ESTF (abilities that repair that rather than consumables) - and just more fictional realism, lol.
As long as they keep adding more magic wand healing (and they do it all the time with various passives, procs, set bonuses, etc) - well, they're going to end up juggling things like the EPtX stuff and everything else...there will never be balance.
However, now with this change, For ten seconds without the bonus power AND the shield resist, I am effectively down 45% resist for 10 seconds, which is more than enough time for an escort to rip through me. After testing with some friends on tribble, this was verified over and over again. I cannot survive one escort, especially coming out of cloak, let alone more than one escort.
The damage bonus I get from EPtW2 in no way makes up for the lackluster damage from beams, and in no way makes up for losing nearly over half of my survivability for 10 seconds. Before you got the extra weapon power for the full 30 seconds, but only increased damage for 5. Now you get both for only 20. I haven't tested the numbers entirely yet, but losing that amount of weapon power for 10 seconds would seem to me to either equal to the same amount of damage, or in fact be less in the long run.
As a fed engineer in a cruiser, I so no reason to continue what so ever. This is not me being overly dramatic, but simply relaying my concerns. We cannot do enough damage to make up for not being able to survive anymore. This change removes our role entirely. If your team wanted to focus on the healing cruiser before, you were going to pay for it by exposing your escorts. Now, cruisers should be and will be now the prime target. Since they cannot do enough damage to detour anyone from attacking them, nor can they survive anymore, we simply have no role anymore.
I understand you are trying things to make other abilities more effective, and that is fine, but this is not the way to do it.
For starters, please let the POWER from EPtX powers last the entire 30 seconds, but only 20 seconds on its resist, engine speed, weapon damage etc. That would at least make the resist from 125 shields still apply, so it wont be such a huge spike in received damage.
Similarly, abilities like "rip holes in space with my space rippy thingy" should not be on a "cooldown": I should be able to rip holes in space any time my space-hole-ripper is powered up, and if I want this to happen faster, I should give it power, because otherwise it doesn't happen. The entire concept of "cooldowns" is silly.
Nonetheless, this is the system we appear to be stuck with and it is far too late to change it. Bridge Commander, this ain't.
Ok as fellow cruiser tank I'd like to ask you about your build, what abilities, hull resistances, ship, you have? if your not getting over 40% base hull resistances then I can understand why you maybe dieing so fast once they strip your shields...
Its also wise to use hull heals to, heal any penetrated damage through your shields as well as use various abilities to get a safe distance away if you get in dire straights, as well as popping brace for impact, and other hull resists ect when shields are down.
Apparently us engineers will be getting some added benefit to eptx abilities soon, according to the dev in the patch thread, hopefully it's added duration or lessened cooldown. Likely they are changing our traits...hopefully the eps efficiency one.
I cannot possibly express how much I disagree with this line of thinking.
Let me simply tell you as a professional industrial and diesel mechanic that "cooldowns" and "durations" are actually a much more realistic way to represent these sorts of abilities in a scientific/realistic way. Any man made system, whether mechanical, electronic, hydraulic or otherwise, is engineered with certain assumptions about the kind of load it will be under. Exceeding that sort of load is almost always possible, but comes with certain risks and drawbacks that become intolerable over time.
If you red line an engine for too long, you'll overheat or lose proper lubrication. If you abuse your brakes, they'll get hot, and if you abuse them more, they'll glaze, reducing their friction potential. If you raise voltage to push a higher currency through a circuit you'll first raise the temperature of the circuit, which will create greater resistance, which will lead to even more heat, until something melts or software fails because a voltage or current goes out of proper range. Put too much tension on a chain and it will stretch or snap. You get the idea.
You can only push something past its intended load, or use it in an unintended way (abuse) for a limited amount of time before the risk of failure becomes certainty of failure.
BoFF powers are almost entirely based on pushing hardware past its normal limits or tasking to do things it's not normally designed for. It's perfectly realistic that this use and abuse would come with time limits and cooldowns. Even in the shows and movies, we routinely see engineering telling the captain that a certain creative use of the deflector or some other system can only be done once before it needs to be repaired, or for only so long before it needs to recharge or cool down. This is literally the meaning behind a "cooldown" mechanic, and it applies in the fictional 25th century just as it has applied since the dawn of time.
I began using the Fleet heavy cruiser for the ability to cycle EPtS3, but I just couldn't handle the horrid hull and terrible interia of that ship.
I currently run with the Fleet Excelsior
tac team 1 (with purple doffs) APB, BO3
EPtS1, ES1, EPts3, Aux2SiF3
EPtW1, RSP
EPtW1 or ET1
HE1, TSS2
Using DCE (3 purples) for the chance to trigger EPtS3, which works quite well because I have 2 chances for it to trigger when hitting it, and EPtW1.
Borg Def
Borg Eng
Maco Shield
2 Neut consoles
6 Advanced Fleet disruptors, Cutting beam rear, Rommie Plasma torp front, or wide angle.
6 points in threat control, 6 in Armor reinforcements
I have just over 40% in resist.
Running at 80 Weapon power, 70 shield, and when cycling EPtS and EPtW, I would get 125 in each.
Yes I do hit brace for impact, as well as SFM when I need to.
A fully buffed tac escort has no trouble popping me like a balloon in that 10 second gap. Especially anyone who cloaks. Just wait for the gap, alpha, and pop.
Why don't you drop the DCE Doffs for something more useful. Having them just so you get a higher proc chance to cooldown EPtS3 is inefficient.
Off the top of my head:
- Brace for Impact Doffs for shield heals
- Warp Core Engineer for power bonus
- DCE Doff variant with Aux2SIF HoT
No.
I find it incredibly useful. Having the opportunity to have EPtS3 up at all times without having to slot a second copy of it is far more beneficial to me than to have a chance to get a small shield heal every time I hit BFI.
Constant uptime on EPtS3 means I don't need the shield heal. And with the change, it is still not a viable option given the CD on BFI
Yet here you are, essentially agreeing with me.
And yet in battle, this is precisely what you do. You take risks. You abuse equipment. War isn't safe.
I'm not seeing the drawback. In SFB, you could HET anytime you wanted. There was no hard cooldown saying you could not. You just ran the risk you'd break something. But you know what? This is war.
I am not sure that is entirely true: Many of these functionalities, like, say, "using the tractor beam", without which your ship apparently does not even have a tractor beam, seem to be well within normal usage.
Given that the behavior as listed can be sustained indefinitely, it doesn't seem terribly abusive.
It is also worth noting that for some reason, all of this equipment can perform all these functions seemingly for free, without any opportunity cost beyond the powers that mysteriously share cooldowns. I don't have to put any power towards running the tractor beam to yoink someone. But I can only tractor for a few seconds out of a few more seconds. I can't just tractor until I break something or run out of power.
In comparison, SFC did not have this: I could tractor an opponent anytime I wished to, as long as I wished to pay for the power needed to operate the tractor beam, which would come at the cost of some other thing I could be using that power on. This is not true here. Here, even though I have a perfectly functioning tractor beam thingy, I can't tractor a guy because I just tractored him. The addition of a second tractor beam operator somehow enables me to tractor slightly more, but I can still tractor only for limited times...for free. It doesn't cost me anything else to run the tractor beam. This is not how things were on the show, either.
Based on your explanations, you essentially agree with me. Only my position is that the cost and risks should be something put in the hands of the player to make, whereas you want to babysit him and keep him from breaking parts of his own ship through abuse.
I'll simplify it for you:
You: "Cooldowns and durations are unrealistic, these powers should be toggles instead, because that's more realistic"
Me: "No, cooldowns and durations are more realistic. Here are a dozen real life examples to illustrate."
If you overload a circuit, it LITERALLY can only be done for a certain *duration* before it literally has to *cool down* (that is, it must dissipate heat). Understand? Cooldowns and durations aren't merely an arbitrary game mechanic when you're talking about physical systems on a starship, as they are when you're talking about super hero powers or magic spells, etc.
The fact that these units in STO are discreet, measurable and predictable is a bit of an abstraction, based in part on just reducing randomness and based in part of the idea that your BoFFs are hyper capable beings who know things that normal beings couldn't possibly know in real time, like exactly how long you can red line a system before it absolutely must cool down.
Could they abstract this instead with a toggle that filled some kind of "danger meter" for each system with an increasing chance of failure as the meter filled? Maybe, but that would be an overly complicated system which wouldn't very well represent a captain giving orders to his crew so much as a captain simultaneously manning every station on his ship.
Whether you could do something in SFB or not is completely irrelevant. 1) SFB isn't some kind of rigorous simulation of reality and 2) This isn't SFB. Whatever design decisions were made in one game might have been bad decisions or they might have simply been good decisions within that particular game. Again, totally irrelevant in this case.
Every ship has tractor beams. Only ships with science officers capable of amplifying them and skillfully using them for unintended purposes are able to wield them as a combat power. That abuse of their intended purpose and/or overload of the circuit requires a cooldown and a duration considerably less than "always on."
Given that they're explicitly changing it so that it can't be always on, they apparently disagree. The new design more closely matches a real world model than an "always on" toggle would.
The opportunity cost is that it's not available for use while it cools down, and it requires the special attention of highly skilled officers to execute.
You run out of the ability to put power to that system, because the circuitry is overheated, failsafes activate and need to be reset, and so on.
Great, but that's not a more realistic model. It's built on the assumption that equipment has no limitations except the amount of power you can feed it, which is simply impossible for a physical component. Overclocking your CPU doesn't just require more power, it actually overheats and wears out the processor. Even with the best cooling technology there's still an upper limit to the frequency that the thing can operate at or how much current can physically pass through it. Running your engine past the red line doesn't just use more gas and oil, it risks melting the engine or components of the engine. A runaway diesel engine (where injectors stay open, for example) can destroy itself in less than 5 seconds, easily.
The only thing we essentially agree on is that things can be abstracted. For some reason you insist that one form of abstraction is more realistic, when it simply isn't.
That is indeed quite an impressive feat of knowledge, considering that every individual instance of a system will behave differently when its tolerances are exceeded, and don't all fail simultaneously at a fixed point.
Interestingly, a lot of games actually do this. In cases where literal overheating is the issue, there is often a heat meter that runs up, and as your system progressively overheats, bad stuff starts happening...and you get to decide how far you're willing risk exploding to avoid exploding.
As someone who has professionally dealt in both sides of this issue, I can assure you it is not as cut and dried as it appears to you, who has probably never been placed in a situation where, having designed a piece of equipment with known tolerances and points of failure, must now deliberately exceed those tolerances or else you will die horribly anyway. In these cases it is often not a question of when the system will fail, but how they will fail, and whether these modes of failure are better than the alternatives.
Consider the alternatives: Suppose Emergency Power to Shields wasn't just a magic spell cast upon shields, but actually drew upon some supply of emergency power that could be depleted or overdrawn, or overstressed the shield generators in ways that would eventually result in efficiency loss and failure. Then the player could run the thing at 100% uptime for a bit if he wanted, but at some point something would run out or break. This is certainly better than a yo-yo mechanic of up again, down again, over and over...a behavior which IS likely terrible for system: Turn something on and off over and over again and you'll kill it far faster than overloading it slightly.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Nothing's going to change, at least not for the better, and the in-game effects of this change are precisely the opposite of what they were meant to address.
Engineers in cruisers have had to beat their head against a wall trying to be damage dealers in pvp. Most people who have stuck with Eng cruisers long enough have finally accepted the role that they are only ever going to be tank healers. Now that we have accepted that, you take away our ability to be tanks, which gets us killed, which makes unable to heal.
The deterrent of a cruiser to keep an escort away was not the cruisers ability to do damage or hold or repel them, but to make them have to waste their time trying to kill us, thus exposing them to attack. Now it is no longer a waste of time as a cruiser can be brought down quite effortlessly inside a 10 second window.
I indeed have gone to tribble and tested this in a group pvp setting. The change seemed negligible at first, until it took people roughly 5 minutes to realize they just needed to time their strikes in that gap and pop, no more cruiser. Even myself trying to time my RSF, TSS2, BFI and SFM in those gaps was not nearly enough to offset the loss of shield power level resist and EPtS3.
So if you take away the role you have pigeon-holed us into, so now what the hell are we supposed to do
exactly?
If you are going to keep this change, then you seriously need to nerf DHC or fix beam damage or something. Because this, this is the final nail in the coffin for cruisers with eng captains.
Here's a suggestion that can make these changes not be 100% biased towards escorts while at the same time nailing the coffin on cruisers and science ships (current tribble changes literally up escort damage 400% while making sci/cruiser shields be completely vulnerable for 10 seconds guaranteed).
The solution: Have every Emg2X ability impart two 'buffs' when clicked rather than a 'universal' one.
Emergency to Weapons:
Imparts one beam weapon buff and one cannon weapon buff. Cannon buff has damage bonus last 5 seconds with a +5% damage bonus over the current amount. Beam weapon bonus is the 20 seconds damage buff.
Result: Beam weaponry receives the most bonus from this ability and it can bring beams into functional parity with the heavier dual cannons. Parity meaning that while the cannons retain their high damage as a spike damage hit, the beams now are able to be good at delivering good damage over time. Spike Vs Over-Time parity.
Yes, a ship with cannons and beams equipped receives the bonuses for both weapons.
Emergency to Engines:
This ability gives the ship its bonus based on hull type. If escort it provides a large power boost to engine power with a small boost in speed. If science ship, cruiser or carrier it provides a large turn rate boost with a small engine power boost and a decent speed boost.
Result: Escorts get their bonus speed without being a direct boost which would insanely increase their defense rating. Increased engine power would then provide a speed boost that is dependent on the captain's skill points in impulse and engine boxes. Sci,Cruisers and Carriers get turn rate bonus which is a godsend to them along with a decent increase in speed for the 20 second duration. Their defense is not boosted but they can now turn decently for a short time... very much like an excelsior using aux2dampeners now.
Emergency to Aux:
Sci and Cruiser would get a timer reduction to over-time healing abilities like hazard and transfer shield strength and extend shields...and escorts should receive a reduction in weapon power cost (weapon power resistance I think is the effect?) during those 20 seconds. I'm thinking if emg2wep 2 is used the dual heavy cannon power cost would go from 12 down to 9 type of reduction.
Emergency to Shields:
Should be hull based buff as well and should impart 2 different buffs per hull type.
Escorts receive a 20 second duration large buff to shield resists and reduces shield bleedthrough by 2% per tier. Aka tier Emg to Shields 2= 4% bleedthrough reduction. No shield regen bonus.
Sci ships and cruisers receive a 30 second duration very large buff to shield regen rate and a large buff to shield resists.
All hull types receive = power bonus to shield power.
This makes escorts able to 'toughen up' before an attack run but do not have shield healing power imparted by the ability..instead their shield bleedthrough is decreased. Sci ships and cruisers receive a generous bonus to shield regeneration rate and to shield resists for longer duration which enables them to tank for a change.
I would also like to ask a new emergency power to- ability be added:
Emergency Power to Deflector
This power does what the devs originally intended the emg2aux do: It grants direct bonus to stats.
For sci ships and cruisers it would increase graviton/particle/subspace decompiler/countermeasures/sensor/flow capacitor skill and reduce the timer on abilities that use those stats.
For escorts, the emg 2 deflector should give a bonus to targeting, stealth, sensors and subspace decompiler and reduce the timer
Result: Sci and escorts up their tanking and hull-type role defining stats and escorts receive bonuses to their own role-definining abilities without it being a direct increase in damage.. both ships receive bonus to their utility skills.