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Nemesis vs Wrath of Khan
mjaybird
Member Posts: 106 Arc User
With Romulans coming out this May I am going to say this Nemesis is way better then Wrath of Khan for being a great star trek movie. I know I will get true trek fans saying I am wrong.
Post edited by mjaybird on
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so basically you wan't to troll...
but not only "true" star trek fans will dispute your statement, anybody with atleast an above average sense for good movies will disagree with you.
i'll just leave it at that, since this post is obviously just a lame attempt at trolling and in the wrong section of the forum.
What is your reasoning? Your rating scale? All you have given anyone is a bare boned opinion, which you admittedly expect to be rebutted.
It is possible according to your so far unexplained reasoning and personal preference scale that you are correct. When you have atleast attempted to justify your opinion, then I will offer rebuttal. As for now this can only be regarded as hastily written without due consideration at best, and trolling at worst.
Regards,
Seacat
I would say to the Op leanr more about your Trek history as Kahn was featured in the ToS.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
Yeah and we totally had noone on picards little fleet thinking "yes perhaps we should go look in that nebula....
Or a pointless **** scene to make sure the audience gets that this is the villain.
with is uber ship he could have seeked out the enterpsie, clobbered it to death, boarded it and capture picard, then proceed with his unbeatable cloack to nuke earth.
Its sad when chucks crazy janeway plot makes more sense....
I like khan better, because he has charisma.
Although:
BANE IS SHINZON! Dude, working dilithium in a deep hole like mien sure buffs you up!
Anything with TOS is WAY better than anything with Next Gen.
How can you compare the putrid trash that was Nemesis with Wrath of Khan? Next thing you'll be saying Janeway and Archer WEREN'T genocidal psychopaths!
I guess I really don't need to say anything.
Member since December 2009
It tried to tie in the Foil of the Captain, Kirk v Khan, and Picard v Shinzon. But Kirk v Khan was more subtle on a more base level of Khan being a high and mighty Superhuman, and Kirk being a down to earth badass Captain. Also, the revenge bit was alot more believable as Khan DID blame Kirk for his abandonment on Ceti Alpha V (rightfully so) and the death of his wife (somewhat of a stretch, but I have seen such leaps form obsessive people before.) They played off each other well.
I thought the whole Clone of Picard things was a bit steep and not needed. It was forcing the question of "What would Picard have been like raised on Remus?" Well, DUH! He would have been a different person. Nurture vs Nature.
Nemesis also tried to do the sacrifice for the greater good idea. But there was no build up to it, I felt. In WoK, their were discussing the idea throughout the movie, on many levels. Within the first ten minutes, they were discussing "The best of times, and the Worst of times." and introduced the No-Win scenario.. which Kirk cheated.
Data... he has a back-up copy of him, and he thought, "I owe Picard something, So I will save him and my friends." But there was little prelude to it. There was no discussion about life and death and sacrifice. It was all focused on Picard and a tortured childhood.
Nemesis tried and failed to be true trek.
I am not trolling I just want to say what is better in my option.
That single sentence is so close to total heresy, I could hardly bear to quote it, and thus invalidates your entire premise.
/thread
Ignoring obvious troll post though, let's rank the Trek movies:
1/2/3: Wrath of Khan/Undiscovered Country/First Contact - I have trouble ranking these among each other, as I'm sure a lot of people do. They all have just the right mix of action, character, and "Trek" feel along with strong filmmaking quality.
4: Voyage Home - Super fun, feels like one of the lighter episodes of TOS
5: Search For Spock - Klingon Christopher Lloyd! Not as good as some of the other TOS films, but still strong
6/7: Generations/Nemesis - I have trouble ranking these between each other. Both have major plot issues. Nemesis has better action while Generations has better character moments. Both have things that actively TRIBBLE me off (Enterprise-D pointlessly destroyed, Data pointlessly killed).
8: The Motion Picture - Boring but beautifully shot and a fantastic score
9: Insurrection - Just plain old boring
10: Final Frontier - UGH
Just about the perfect list, although I would put TMP above Gen/Nem only because A) it had the first shots of that gorgeous new enterprise, and
I would also move Final Frontier up 2 spots because, well, MOTHER****ING ROCKETBOOTS!
Exactly. Chekov was on the Enterprise, he just wasn't assigned to Bridge duties in the first year. Both Walter and Ricardo have said the reason Khan knows Chekov is because after Khan was woken up, he went the toilet but had to wait an extremely long time because Chokov was in there. When Chekov came out, Khan made a note of the face of the man who made him wait.:D
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
"I will remember your face!" Khan screamed. "And I will have my revenge!"
I gave up on Nemesucks early on, when they had Action Hero Picard driving a dune buggy, with wheels and everything (when antigravity technology was literally child's play - we once saw levitating toys in the Enterprise-D's classroom, when Worf was called for a parent-teacher conference about Alexander), and Worf firing a pintel-mounted phaser, blowing the Prime Directive apart in ways even Jim Kirk had never dreamed of.
(And nobody ever mentions the continuity error in Generations, when at one point they specify the Enterprise has 24 decks, then later have a Borg incursion on Deck 26...)
I might have to give you that one. Still, I'm more likely to watch Generations or Nemesis than TMP. TMP just puts me right out.
Final Frontier isn't going anywhere though. Insurrection may be boring, but at least I don't spend the entire movie grinding my teeth in irritation.
Anyway, for my personal favourites; I'm not so fussy about Undiscovered Country, but First Contact and Wrath of Khan are vying for top position.
I'm a fan of the rebooted movie, though it gets as much wrong as it gets right; specifically I find it hard to look past the lazy use of industrial locations for engineering, and yet they have a very original series-esque bridge set made. I always liked the original series engineering layout, especially the upgraded sets in the films, whereas the reboot engineering I could just go a power-station tour and it'd be just the same, didn't seem right at all for a big budget film. Chekov's accent is also even worse than in the original series, and his accent in the original was pretty bad; it was a bit too much cheese for my tastes. But the action sequences were easily the best of all the films, and the story was good, if a strange choice for the first film as time travel seemed like an extra complication for a film that was to reintroduce a franchise.
Game Balance - Ship Size and Wingmates
my opinion
Great: 2,4,8,11
Good: 3,6
Watchable: 1,7,9,10
total TRIBBLE: 5
PS, shouldn't this be in Ten Forward?
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
*covers ears runs out screaming*
LALALALA
For a villain with no former presence, Shinzon was fairly impressive; while Montalban created a more iconic character, I always felt Shinzon and his Scimitar posed a greater threat to the Enterprise, Earth and the Federation.
Now, if the Wrath space scenes were remade today, it might push it over the top. That said, I really wish someone had used '60s tech for the Reman makeup effects; those dudes were unnecessarily fugly, and as a race seemed unimpressive (mind-TRIBBLE Troi seems so PC, but without it she served no purpose in the film other than as arm candy for Riker).
As I said, it could go either way.
Even I have to agree with this, and I put the films roughly on par.
Khan is a memorable character, made moreso by his previous appearance in the series.
But Shinzon got all the cool toys. It helps to play nice with others, which is apparently something they failed to teach the genetically superior Khan.
Plus, he out-Romulan'd the Romulans. How cool is that. No wonder we're getting a craptastic Romulan republic - some punk human clone took their manhood.
As for Nemesis, it gave more insight into the Romulan culture and revealed that the Empire is not really an Empire but a Republic (Cryptic was right) because the Senate does all the policy making like the USA and theres civilian control of the miilitary and also the whole Remans were the downtroded slaves was wrong they turned out to be the agressors in this matter. The story was okay but the B4 angle was well off to me, why did they use him in the first place they could have just called Starfleet and had Picard over regardless of the Android. Schinzon was really cool, i always wanted to see Picard being the BA he was in Yesterday's Enteprise and First Contact. Instead of the soft explorer who gets manipulated into entanglements, Kirk i believe would have sensed a trap and not fallen for Schinzon's plea for help. The action sequences reminded me of Star Wars from the Schimatar corridor battle at the shuttle bay door, if you look at Star Wars V you will find a exact scene on Cloud City where Artoo and C3PO are arguing when Chewy is shooting Storms and artoo is opening the door. Much like Data and Picard did. The hallway battle on the Enterprise was also a copy of the detention block battle on the Deathstar and the Remans acted way too much like stormtroopers and never did hit anything at all. The music reminded me of the old TRIBBLE WW2 music in the Longest Day war movie, not very original. In all i give it a 7 out of 10.
Wraith of Kahn was far superior and way more Trek.
The ship could cloak but needed shipping info for fed space.
B4 was never told to get medical info on Picard's DNA to clone some tissue while on the Enterprise.
A radiation that destroys organic matter on a sub-atomic scale (all matter is the same on that scale).
Shinzon tried to make out with Diana via his viceroy.
Shinzon is a clone of a younger Picard? If they had spent just a bit of time in makeup making Tom Hardy at least vaguely resemble Patrick Stewart, the premise would have been less laughable. How the hell does someone become less bald and look so completely different as they get older? You can explain part of that away to environment but when they show Picard reminiscing over an old photo where he looks like Shinzon I was shaking my head, thinking come on guys you could have done better than that.
Shinzon starts off supposedly trying to gain Picard's trust yet immediately does something outlandish like telepathically TRIBBLE Troi? Geez no subtlety of evilness in that and for what purpose? He undermined his own goals by showing his hand too early. Bad guys that are subtly evil are much more interesting than the ones that do the Simon Legree routine.
The stupid dune buggy sequence straight out of a post apocalyptic B movie , flying a fighter around in ships corridors and a 65 year old man trying to act like an action hero is just too absurd to think about.
And why the hell is it that no matter where something happens in the galaxy, no matter who is responsible, the bad guys always want to attack Earth in revenge?
With WoK you have an existing character who was already an ego maniac to begin with, but now one driven mad by grief and a need for revenge, you had a continuity with a pre-existing story.
There was no such build up for Nemesis. The whole movie came across as what it was, a last gasping breath of a cast that were ready to move on after attempting to milk a few more drops from a franchise showing its age.
I always laugh at the Reman character design, they couldn't make them look more demonic looking if they tried, I keep thinking is this Star Trek or Nosferatu, I would really hate to see what Reman women look like.
However for some reason it flips when it comes to the movies. TOS crew has real movie star charisma and the plots are better movie plots, IMO. Even the fairly cheesy "Voyage Home" was still very entertaining. The only bad one IMO is "The Undiscovered Country." The Wrath of Khan is just the best Star Trek movie ever made, IMO.
None of the TNG movies really resonated with me. Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner have real big screen acting chops, but every one else just feels flat, and the plots are just kind of lame.
Nuff Said!
/thread
Having more, deeper characters was exactly why TNG translated more poorly on to the silver screen. You can realistically only feature 2-4 main characters in any given story. TOS, every story was basically a Kirk/Spock/McCoy story with cameos from the other recurrings. TNG, you had Picard/Crusher, Geordi/Data, Ruler/Troi, Ruler/Worf/Troi episodes, and every other 2 or 3 person combo, but the movies could only really fit in 3, usually only two "real" characters , primarily Data/Picard. The rest only really got cameos that illustrated one or two clich?d traits and left you wanting more.
Nemesis wasn't just poor trek ( up there with "Spock's Brain" on my trek **** list), it was a terribad movie, with terribad plot, terribad action sequences, a terribad clich?d ending, and a terribad soundtrack. At least Insurrection had F. Murray Abraham.
Ruler? Who's "Ruler"... I think you mean "Riker"? :eek:
http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-trek/star-trek-nemesis/
But I agree with the OP, clearly a troll.