One thing I suggested a long time ago was that when X amount of fleets reach Tier 5 - fully complete - they make a general base where everyone can buy fleet gear
However - due to the large investment that players in tier 5 have put in - Cryptic should add up the total cost of building a Tier 5 starbase - divide it by say 250 and add those costs to the ships and gear
You would pay a 1 time Fee of that X amount dilthium/FM/EC - and get access to this General fleet store.
So if it take 25,000,000 dilthium then you would pay 100,000
Resource prices are easy to figure out and add up - and divide for the EC price total
Doff prices are harder and would have to takes a avg exhange price(like an opportunity cost - you could get x doff from STA which you donated to fleet but could have got x EC if you sold it instead)
Total Fleet marks would also be easy to add up and divide
this system would make it so that people in large fleets don't feel cheated
OK so maybe I have been a tad heated in my responses and I do apologise if anyone was genuinely offended.
Yes as part of a small fleet I am frustrated by the effective gear lockout. It really does not help to be characterised on the forum as wanting handouts or asking for something for nothing when in reality I am pumping dil, FM's and resources into the fleet system like they are going out of fashion and barely making a dent. I certainly don't feel like a freeloader.
If it were Cryptic saying that Fleet members pay much more for C-store ships than non members because you had lots of mates to help you pay for them then there would be uproar and I would be waving the banner with you.
I really don't see that this principle is all that different.
Of course I could leave my fleet today, join a big one, get the stuff I want and the leave and come back home to smallsville. I could contribute a chunk and still have lots of change from what I am paying out at the moment. Still why should I have to and frankly why would your fleet want me if that is the only reason I wanted to join?
Why should a small fleet ever get to Tier 5? It's like a platoon Lt complaining to General that his fire base should be expanded to Brigade Fortification - with a landing strip, tank access, mess halls, helicopter attack wing, full artillery implacement, stores and all the rest.
He would be put on medical leave or laughed at.
Really the stuff at Tier 5 is not that great either.
Why should a small fleet ever get to Tier 5? It's like a platoon Lt complaining to General that his fire base should be expanded to Brigade Fortification - with a landing strip, tank access, mess halls, helicopter attack wing, full artillery implacement, stores and all the rest.
He would be put on medical leave or laughed at.
Really the stuff at Tier 5 is not that great either.
because, they, said, they could.
Thats the reason. and its the only one thats needed.
Thats the reason. and its the only one thats needed.
Please - Cryptic always indicated that a small fleet would have a VERY hard time reaching the higher tiers and would take a significant amount of time.
I believe Heretic even mentioned 1 time that a fleet of less than 5 people would make it almost impossible to ever reach T5
Look here we are 7 months in and fleets with over 200 people starting from day 1 - are still 2+ months from completing tier 5 fully.
So the Mega fleets are going to take 10 months - why should it take anywhere near the same for a fleet of 5 vs a fleet of 300-500??
A fleet of 5 should be able to do it in 2 years anyways - which is same as anything in life that is being built - more manpower usually equals faster build.
Speaking a very small fleet leader, for what it is worth, I'm firmly against any membership linking to project requirements. The Fleet projects should stay independent of the membership.
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
Please - Cryptic always indicated that a small fleet would have a VERY hard time reaching the higher tiers and would take a significant amount of time.
I believe Heretic even mentioned 1 time that a fleet of less than 5 people would make it almost impossible to ever reach T5
Look here we are 7 months in and fleets with over 200 people starting from day 1 - are still 2+ months from completing tier 5 fully.
So the Mega fleets are going to take 10 months - why should it take anywhere near the same for a fleet of 5 vs a fleet of 300-500??
A fleet of 5 should be able to do it in 2 years anyways - which is same as anything in life that is being built - more manpower usually equals faster build.
Maybe you should ask yourself why it shouldn't?
What possible harm comes to the game from small fleets taking no longer than big fleets.
The answer is none.
This is a game an every player having access to end-game rewards in a similar space of time regardless of how big or small their fleet is would only improve the game.
::By the way this thread has some very good ideas, if any of you want to join in the wider debate about how we as a community can be a positive force in improving this game please PM me we already have a number of players on board and this is open to everyone including forum moderators and whoever else has an interest::
Please - Cryptic always indicated that a small fleet would have a VERY hard time reaching the higher tiers and would take a significant amount of time.
You, asked why a small fleet should ever get to T5, I gave you your answer, nothing more, nothing less.
My small fleet of 8, is right in the middle of going T3 across the board, with the Communications done, the Industrial Fabricator done in 30 minutes, and the transwarp up next. BTW, we started in September.
I believe Heretic even mentioned 1 time that a fleet of less than 5 people would make it almost impossible to ever reach T5[/quote} i don't know about impossible; personally I see ZERO value in going past 3 anyhow.
Again, note that the math will show that there is an optimal size for attaining each tier, and Fleets larger than the optimal size will not get to the next tier faster by any appreciable amount. For Tier 1 you'd need to spend around 4000% more resources for around 15% faster advancement. That's four thousand percent, as in an additional amount of resources equal to 40 times the original cost. This is why most Fleets hit Tier 1 at roughly the same time - being larger than the optimal size won't give you much benefit.
Note also that "optimal size" only applies to the current system where it acts as a soft cap. The alternative they had considered was a hard cap, and that number would be "minimum size required". The reason things are difficult is because you're hitting the soft cap - you're not supposed to be able to advance much further without great difficulty.
Again, note that the math will show that there is an optimal size for attaining each tier, and Fleets larger than the optimal size will not get to the next tier faster by any appreciable amount. For Tier 1 you'd need to spend around 4000% more resources for around 15% faster advancement. That's four thousand percent, as in an additional amount of resources equal to 40 times the original cost. This is why most Fleets hit Tier 1 at roughly the same time - being larger than the optimal size won't give you much benefit.
Note also that "optimal size" only applies to the current system where it acts as a soft cap. The alternative they had considered was a hard cap, and that number would be "minimum size required". The reason things are difficult is because you're hitting the soft cap - you're not supposed to be able to advance much further without great difficulty.
Fleets that are smaller made up of friends with similar jobs/lifestyles, similar habits and live in the same time zone are the most likely to meet up in game for organized events this means a smaller fleet will spend more time in-game comparatively not only that but at the moment they have to in order to progress.
In addition what you fail to remember is that apart from Zen to Dilithium and Ship modules there is nothing in the Fleet system that can bought with RL money. If you could by Fleet Marks or Fleet Progression XP with Zen I could understand.
What you've done is taken a generic study which was already flawed then applied it to this game assuming that it would be true.
Now if I had some sourced data from this game that proves your point I'd be inclined to agree. As it stands I see nothing in allowing Small Fleets to progress at the same speed as big ones, in-fact I think it would bring a lot of people back who left the game because their fleets got mothballed as a result of Season 7 changes. That would bring in revenue.
As it stands even if your right at the moment if we believe what you say small fleet players aren't staying in game or buying things anyways so the status quo is already a negative and revenue loss, giving something to entice those in small fleets to play more will trigger revenue gain.
this means a smaller fleet will spend more time in-game comparatively not only that but at the moment they have to in order to progress.
If was even remotely true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Because the members of the small fleets would be actively working on their base. So all these doom and gloom posts about the death of small fleets wouldn't be needed.
Basically your whole post is nothing but a very thin justification for why you should be given a handout and should be asked to pay a fraction of the cost that a larger fleet does.
Why exactly should you be given special treatment? The idea that this would somehow be a net gain for PWE's bottom line is laughable at best.
So again, why should you be given special treatment? Why should Cryptic give a small fleet such a big advantage over a larger one?
I'd also disagree with the expectation that players in small fleets provide less revenue. All of us in our small have just about every C-Store item as well as lifetime subs, for both STO and CO. I alone know of several others in small fleets who have spent the same.
In turn, I would have to disagree that you in any way represent the average player. Projections of the sort I referenced are about expected trends for a majority, not the outliers. I'm sure there are also players who haven't spent a single cent but have all the unlocks from the Dil Exchange, but that won't mean anything to the suits either.
You also don't seem to understand what the point was - it isn't that you spend less in smaller groups, it's that you are less likely to remain as long. Certainly in a subscription game this would be true, but here it's simply opportunity to spend money.
In finance you don't concern yourself with the individual outliers, you look at the general trends. The simple fact is that people in larger groups tend to stick to something longer, because the social aspect can replace the initial motivation for longer. They want people to play long enough to buy everything available. So they're going to want people in bigger groups, and they're not going to provide any incentive to be in smaller groups. Giving an advantage to lower sizes (via scaling requirements) would essentially be encouraging the larger fleets to splinter. That's not something corporate would approve of.
The suggestions that some of us have made keep that in mind - projects with adjusted resource/time ratios based on current results can neatly sidestep those concerns. Smaller fleets will have an easier time (lowered costs), but no arbitrary advantage (same duration).
When my small fleet started the grind for a Tier 2 starbase, I had the same ideas that a lot of players had. We need a scaling system or a bonus or someway to decrease project times. But the more I dive into the numbers, I found that fleets of all sizes have issues, granted different ones but fleet system needs work.
What I found, is the one thing that small fleets have over larger ones is the provisioning. That is the one thing driving large fleets crazy. While a large fleet can easily grind the Starbase level tiers, the provisioning of the large will bring all things back in line with the smaller fleets. What mean is, just look at the resources needed for a fleet to grant the same level of provisioning you will see that a the large the fleet the more provisioning projects need to maintain a certain provisioning level.
I'm not just talking about the starships but the weapons, armor and fleet goodies that most players want. If we only look at the resources needed for the core of the starbase, of course a fleet of 50 plus members will have to contribute a tenth of what my fleet members need to contribute. And fleet with over 100 members the numbers needed would make any Ferengi say: "Only fools pay retail".
The provisioning level are in a direct relationship with the number of active members who want to draw from them, an yes fleet leaders divvy out or make rules for them. It still means if fleet leader johnny wants a fleet ship than all his fleet members are going to help him provision that ship like it or not. The grass is not always greener on the other side.
So what does this mean, it still makes for a major grind. Add in the fact, that the writing on the wall is more reputation systems are inbound. More endless grinding for a +1% change to trigger a % chance to stun your enemy for 1 sec. I like the reputation system, just not the Dilithium sink and Dilithium cost of stuff in it. But back to the topic of this thread.
The way I see it there are three tiers for fleet size;
A Fleet with 25 or under active players, Let's call it a small fleet, Tier I.
A Fleet with 50 or so active players, Let's call it an average fleet, Tier II.
A Fleet with over 100 active players, Let's call it a large fleet, Tier III.
First what is an active player, for me an active player is, one unique login that has played for at least an average of once a week for the last three months.
Now take the active player numbers over the 3 to 6 months and we have what tier the fleet is in.
Over all I would love to see a ten percent reduction in all fleet projects. Now how about being able to contribute raw Dilithium ore to your fleet. Then make duty officer missions that convert it, allowing fleet leaders to assign to projects. The amount that could be converted would scale with the fleet tier so smaller fleets could convert more but would need to use more duty officers to do so.
Also I would love a new storage system were fleet members could "pre" contribute items for fleet projects, the launchers, stem bolts. Why can't we contribute duty officers of a higher grade to projects, why is only a common needed but I can't willing give up a green or blue.
Once again these are only my ideas, and I have yet to see or hear anything to any effect from cryptic other Dastahl comments on the 14th.
A large fleet doesn't equal more play time, it just means that in one hour of game play a member's duty to the fleet is filled. STO doesn't have hour long raids. Up in till a few weeks ago half my fleet would play every night for two or three hours. Dastahl's go big or go home speech ended that. I have turned down players who wanted invites. We don't recruit. We are a small band of players who know each other and have played across many games. For us it all about the game and having fun, not endlessly grinding for shines. If you want to raid for hours with a guild go play Guild Wars or WoW .
I see a few more posts but the same fat chewing by some people feeling that they are somehow entitled to more without a reason for that being the case.
Seen the same 'many hands make quicker work' rubbish taken from real life and then applied here when we wouldn't even be building our own bases in real life.
Seen the same 'it would take years to build' rubbish again taken from real life and then added here when we don't apply that logic to a ship bought out of a lockbox just for starters.
Seen the same 'bigger fleets would have better equipment' TRIBBLE taken from real life when it's not even the case in real life. Most countries seem to have special ops of some sort.....you know small units, obviously they use discarded old rifles and such with being small and all that.
Seen the same complaints that bigger fleets have provisioning problems which evens things out, well no it doesn't. I would rather have things finished and be waiting on provisioning then not even seeing the prospect of a SB being built for years to come. How are big fleets offering people deals for them to go buy things when they can't provision, are they putting outsiders before the people that helped them build their base? If big fleets have provisioning problems they should bang the drum about it and ask for action instead of using it to somehow excuse why small fleets are getting the shaft.
Now I see some more irrelevant info about people in bigger fleets spending more which seems to use info from other MMO's, well this is not other MMO's. STO was built on solo play and before the SB system came in grouping wasn't even used much apart from when people needed to STF or when the minority used it for PvP. Even now judging by the amount of threads I see around people don't like grouping much and given the chance (if they add resources to all content as is being asked for) people will avoid it when they can.
I have seen so many good reasons why people like to keep small close knit fleets but no matter how much people try to point the reaons why out it always seems to come back to these self entitled twisted logic arguments that bigger fleets should get things cheaper because they are bigger. Now I see they are even trying to add extra twisted logic without backing it up to make out that smaller fleets are wanting some sort of handout when they are already paying multiple times more per man in resources and playtime just to try and get anywhere.
Trying to apply some real life logic, we are all front line troops working for Starfleet or the KDF so we should all have access to the best equipment to use on the front line. What really matters though is that if Cryptic want my/our money then they need to treat me/us the same as everyone else and at the moment they are treating people in smaller fleets like second class citizens.
Those out there like myself who are in small groups yet are spending money may be outside the norm, but I don't think that should equate to being ignored.
I fail to see how "not given an arbitrary advantage" equates to being ignored.
From their perspective, they've already catered to smaller groups by not implementing hard caps on Fleet holdings based on Fleet size. They're not going to make it easier to advance being in a small group than in a large group, as that would require discounting the contribution of individuals in the larger groups.
I see a few more posts but the same fat chewing by some people feeling that they are somehow entitled to more without a reason for that being the case.
Absolutely. Why should anyone only need to pay a fraction the cost of other people? If ten people pool their money to buy a bottle of wine for $100, why should some other individual get the same bottle for $10?
Seen the same 'many hands make quicker work' rubbish taken from real life and then applied here when we wouldn't even be building our own bases in real life.
Seen the same 'it would take years to build' rubbish again taken from real life and then added here when we don't apply that logic to a ship bought out of a lockbox just for starters.
This is rather nonsensical. 1+1 = 2, and 2 > 1. What does that have to do with with "building our own bases in real life" or lockboxes? Is this the STO version of the Chewbacca Defense?
Seen the same 'bigger fleets would have better equipment' TRIBBLE taken from real life when it's not even the case in real life. Most countries seem to have special ops of some sort.....you know small units, obviously they use discarded old rifles and such with being small and all that.
Are you saying the smaller units are not part of the larger country? Are you saying that Navy SEAL teams aren't a part of the US military?
Seen the same complaints that bigger fleets have provisioning problems which evens things out, well no it doesn't. I would rather have things finished and be waiting on provisioning then not even seeing the prospect of a SB being built for years to come.
Your own preference has nothing to do with math.
If 500 people each want something that costs 10 provisions, the group require 5000 provisions. If 10 people want something that cost 10 provisions, the group requires 100 provisions.
That still has nothing to do with expected completion times - you knew going in that it would take more time for five people to do something than five hundred. Wanting your efforts to be worth a hundred times more than a hundred other individuals is ridiculous.
Now I see some more irrelevant info about people in bigger fleets spending more which seems to use info from other MMO's, well this is not other MMO's. STO was built on solo play and before the SB system came in grouping wasn't even used much apart from when people needed to STF or when the minority used it for PvP.
So you're saying it's solo except for the team content? That Fleet content shouldn't require Fleets?
I have seen so many good reasons why people like to keep small close knit fleets but no matter how much people try to point the reaons why out it always seems to come back to these self entitled twisted logic arguments that bigger fleets should get things cheaper because they are bigger. Now I see they are even trying to add extra twisted logic without backing it up to make out that smaller fleets are wanting some sort of handout when they are already paying multiple times more per man in resources and playtime just to try and get anywhere.
The only "self-entitled twisted logic" here is yours, arguing that smaller fleets should get things cheaper because they are smaller. Currently, every fleet pays the same regardless of size.
I want to apologise for my juvenile rhetoric yesterday. It really was not my finest hour and I am sorry.
I stepped away from the forum last night and took stock and the reality of the situation was that I was frustrated and angry at what I saw as people being dismissive of the concerns of smaller fleets or more specifically the individuals therein.
In the cold light of day that is still no excuse because all I was really doing was arguing with folks who obviously share common interests and passions (or we would not be here in the first place) and to what ends? In order for the right to give Cryptic some more of my money. It is a bit silly when I think about it.
For me the facts of the matter are that I like my teeny tiny fleet ..... it is a part of my STO experience. I don't want to change that and so I won't. I am disappointed that the trend seems to be to push people into larger groups and yes I am disappointed that the costs for levelling my fleet are prohibitive considering there are so few of us but ultimately I would rather live with the restrictions that imposes than come across as some kind of jerk on an internet forum. I am not that person.
If we are realistic here then even if Cryptic were to give a leg up to smaller fleets it is hardly likely to be that significant a leg up .....more of a place to rest your ankle. It is not going to make all that much difference in the long run. In fact they would be mad to given that it must be one of the biggest sinks/income generators they have at the moment.
I can live with what we have done so far being a kind of vanity project and maybe treat the fleet to the odd cosmetic special project if they appeal. Rather that than have any perceived injustice spoil the game for me.
Again I am genuinely sorry if my comments in any way offended any of you. I am not a bad chap when you get to know me honestly. I think it wise to confine myself to less emotive matters from now on!
Absolutely. Why should anyone only need to pay a fraction the cost of other people? If ten people pool their money to buy a bottle of wine for $100, why should some other individual get the same bottle for $10?
Faulty logic again, it's bigger fleets that are paying a fraction of the costs per person. I have millions of fleet credits and feel confident that the average large fleet player will have a fraction of that amount. As for your 10 people and wine example will those 10 people just drink like 10% each while an individual would drink it all?*shakes head*
This is rather nonsensical. 1+1 = 2, and 2 > 1. What does that have to do with with "building our own bases in real life" or lockboxes? Is this the STO version of the Chewbacca Defense?
If you took the time to read you would have seen that I was saying that too, you know about people saying that it would take years in real life to build a base and so on when the same people ignore that logic when a ship can come out of a lockbox in seconds.
Are you saying the smaller units are not part of the larger country? Are you saying that Navy SEAL teams aren't a part of the US military?
Are you not reading again? I stated that people make out that big fleets should have an advantage because of real life when that's not even the case in real life. Often the small fleets or squads in real life are the best trained and equipped but when all is said and done all front line troops have access to the tools that they need and in this game we are all front line troops.
If 500 people each want something that costs 10 provisions, the group require 5000 provisions. If 10 people want something that cost 10 provisions, the group requires 100 provisions.
My maths don't come into this, as I stated you are mentioning a problem with provisions and the current system but trying to explain it away as a balancing mechanism between big and small fleets when it isn't, it's just a bad system and fleets having problems with provisioning should complain about that if it affects them.
That still has nothing to do with expected completion times - you knew going in that it would take more time for five people to do something than five hundred. Wanting your efforts to be worth a hundred times more than a hundred other individuals is ridiculous.
You read minds too? I didn't really look at the numbers because..... well I am not a fortune teller and didn't we need to complete tiers to see what the new costs would be? Regardless that still doesn't mean that people should never complain about anything when it's in motion....I bet there are loads of things that you complain about in real life when you should just....well shut up apparently. Never complained about taxes, wage rises, tuition fees going up?
So you're saying it's solo except for the team content? That Fleet content shouldn't require Fleets?
Well you are on a roll, seems you read the post but didn't, I guess you e-mail authors after reading their books too...Is it a short memory problem....never mind let's try again.
I said that STO has always been dominated by solo content, even with my bad memory I can remember that people used to moan a bit about there not being much group content for an MMO. I said that apart from STF's and PvP people never bothered really grouping that much as it wasn't needed, are you disputing that?
I mean even recently we had the officer reports changes because people were apparently doing that on their own instead of grouping. Small fleets group anyway, what other way can we do STF's? The point is that while we did some things as groups and still do we didn't need fleets as such especially super big fleets, end game kit should not be solely aimed at them it should be available to all especially when they want cash for it.
The only "self-entitled twisted logic" here is yours, arguing that smaller fleets should get things cheaper because they are smaller. Currently, every fleet pays the same regardless of size.
No they don't pay the same, I have millions of fleet credits to back up what I say while you don't. Every fleet paying the same regardless of size is exactly the problem that you fail to see but that's not a surprise when you can't even read apparently. All projects might well have the same timers but when not all projects scale costs to launch those timers you have a problem as those in small fleets pay way more before we even get to dil refining caps and such.
Please with your uber maths explain to me how a fleet of say 10 can rake up the 1 million dil (or whatever stupidly high amount is needed) for a mission in 20 hours to meet the timer cooldowns when they can only refine 8k a day?
Faulty logic again, it's bigger fleets that are paying a fraction of the costs per person. I have millions of fleet credits and feel confident that the average large fleet player will have a fraction of that amount. As for your 10 people and wine example will those 10 people just drink like 10% each while an individual would drink it all?*shakes head*
A larger fleet uses up more provisions. Us large fleeters still have to buy more "wine" so to speak. We just pay the same price for the place we keep them in.
Here's an idea that maybe could make a scaling cost work... Feel free to poke holes in it.
What if there was some sort of cost/time slider.
So the middle of the slider would be the current cost and time per project.
On the one end, the cost would go down, but the time to complete goes up. On the other the time to complete goes down but the cost goes up. To use some completely made up numbers...
So it's 10 times the cost, for a 10 times reduction in time.
^^ This... this is a really good idea. It answer the issue of small fleet costs (although time would be longer, the cost would be less... making it overall more accessible).
I dozed off while waiting in the KDF Fleet Alert Queue. When I woke up a few min later I was still in there waiting. Logged off, saw this thread, shared the experience & going to bed now to dream of fleetmarks in foundry missions. Or something.
No they don't pay the same, I have millions of fleet credits to back up what I say while you don't.
Your millions of fleet credits don't back up your position at all, and your statement only serves to highlight the fact that you speak from a very obviously subjective perspective of "I want". I have a slightly more objective perspective since I've already finished acquiring everything related to Fleet and Rep - there's literally nothing left that I am interested in attaining. Your completion and progress has zero impact on me.
Your primary motivator here is "I want this easier", my two motivators is "fairness" and "try to convince Cryptic to listen".
Any scaling to Fleet size fails both tests.
If you want a $10 cake but only have $5, you can buy the cake if someone else gives you $5. If that cake suddenly costs $20 dollars because someone else gave you money, it's blatantly unfair. That's called "getting ripped off". It's not a fair proposal by any measure.
Further, such proposals will likely be rightfully dismissed as whining. It is identical to someone saying they should be able to complete a 20-man Fleet action in the same time it takes a 20-player group to do so. It is against the intention of the design, so it won't be seriously considered.
Please with your uber maths explain to me how a fleet of say 10 can rake up the 1 million dil (or whatever stupidly high amount is needed) for a mission in 20 hours to meet the timer cooldowns when they can only refine 8k a day?
This is a concern that I've already bought up - and why I say they should offer lower cost alternatives that don't affect ROI or duration, only the work and effort necessary.
They have implicitly stated that Fleet holdings are restricted by Fleet size, and I have shown that while they haven't outright capped holding levels, they have effectively implemented a soft cap. Knowing what the other party wants is key to getting them to agree to what you want. That's why I keep pointing out that Cryptic can control the ratio for a time/resource slider (or just a series of project choices at various pre-set levels), which allows them to maintain their intended target.
The slider/additional projects won't devalue anyone's effort, but makes the process considerably easier. It's the difference between 60 hours of work and 20 hours of waiting, versus 20 hours of work and 60 hours of waiting. You get a significant increase in ROI for your efforts, at the cost of less Fleet Credits (which is fair), without affecting how long it takes to achieve the next tier of Fleet holdings (which appears to be Cryptic's concern).
It's not faster, but it is easier. It's also much fairer, easier for Cryptic to implement, and doesn't change their apparent goals. That makes it more likely to actually be used than most of the other proposals in this thread.
If was even remotely true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Because the members of the small fleets would be actively working on their base. So all these doom and gloom posts about the death of small fleets wouldn't be needed.
Basically your whole post is nothing but a very thin justification for why you should be given a handout and should be asked to pay a fraction of the cost that a larger fleet does.
Why exactly should you be given special treatment? The idea that this would somehow be a net gain for PWE's bottom line is laughable at best.
So again, why should you be given special treatment? Why should Cryptic give a small fleet such a big advantage over a larger one?
You need to read over this again and think about what you just said.
Let me offer an analogy for you, me and my friends go down the pub to play darts and pool every Thursday evening, we've done this for about 6 years on and off. We do it because it's fun and it's social and were close friends. It's manageable and enjoyable. If running a small fleet was the same then me and my friends would be playing STO a lot more on the weekends than we currently do.
The truth is that's how human beings work when it comes to socializing. Mega fleets are just faceless entities that smaller cliques inhabit.
Lol I laugh at your idea of what special treatment is considering that Stahl stated that when they were considering which option (A or to go with they decided to give special treatment to the larger fleets at expense of the smaller ones. If were talking special treatment it's larger fleets that have received it.
I see no reason to reply to Darkjeff as his points have already been balanced out.
But in closing I will say this, no one has as of yet given any reason as to why Smaller fleets getting what big fleets get in the same period of time would harm the game.
In what way does a 10 man Fleet and 500 man Fleet both achieving Tier 5 in 10 months going to break the game?
Answer: It isn't.
Unless someone can give me an adequate reason to the contrary?
Comments
Do NOT Reply To Posts Which Offend You!!!
Report Them!
This thread is being actively moderated, so it would be a good idea to read the forum rules if you are unfamiliar with them.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/announcement.php?f=128&a=51
~ Bluegeek
However - due to the large investment that players in tier 5 have put in - Cryptic should add up the total cost of building a Tier 5 starbase - divide it by say 250 and add those costs to the ships and gear
You would pay a 1 time Fee of that X amount dilthium/FM/EC - and get access to this General fleet store.
So if it take 25,000,000 dilthium then you would pay 100,000
Resource prices are easy to figure out and add up - and divide for the EC price total
Doff prices are harder and would have to takes a avg exhange price(like an opportunity cost - you could get x doff from STA which you donated to fleet but could have got x EC if you sold it instead)
Total Fleet marks would also be easy to add up and divide
this system would make it so that people in large fleets don't feel cheated
Yes as part of a small fleet I am frustrated by the effective gear lockout. It really does not help to be characterised on the forum as wanting handouts or asking for something for nothing when in reality I am pumping dil, FM's and resources into the fleet system like they are going out of fashion and barely making a dent. I certainly don't feel like a freeloader.
If it were Cryptic saying that Fleet members pay much more for C-store ships than non members because you had lots of mates to help you pay for them then there would be uproar and I would be waving the banner with you.
I really don't see that this principle is all that different.
Of course I could leave my fleet today, join a big one, get the stuff I want and the leave and come back home to smallsville. I could contribute a chunk and still have lots of change from what I am paying out at the moment. Still why should I have to and frankly why would your fleet want me if that is the only reason I wanted to join?
Discussion of moderation is not permitted.
~Bluegeek
He would be put on medical leave or laughed at.
Really the stuff at Tier 5 is not that great either.
because, they, said, they could.
Thats the reason. and its the only one thats needed.
Please - Cryptic always indicated that a small fleet would have a VERY hard time reaching the higher tiers and would take a significant amount of time.
I believe Heretic even mentioned 1 time that a fleet of less than 5 people would make it almost impossible to ever reach T5
Look here we are 7 months in and fleets with over 200 people starting from day 1 - are still 2+ months from completing tier 5 fully.
So the Mega fleets are going to take 10 months - why should it take anywhere near the same for a fleet of 5 vs a fleet of 300-500??
A fleet of 5 should be able to do it in 2 years anyways - which is same as anything in life that is being built - more manpower usually equals faster build.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
Maybe you should ask yourself why it shouldn't?
What possible harm comes to the game from small fleets taking no longer than big fleets.
The answer is none.
This is a game an every player having access to end-game rewards in a similar space of time regardless of how big or small their fleet is would only improve the game.
::By the way this thread has some very good ideas, if any of you want to join in the wider debate about how we as a community can be a positive force in improving this game please PM me we already have a number of players on board and this is open to everyone including forum moderators and whoever else has an interest::
#2311#2700#2316#2500
My small fleet of 8, is right in the middle of going T3 across the board, with the Communications done, the Industrial Fabricator done in 30 minutes, and the transwarp up next. BTW, we started in September.
Again: on average, members of a large guild will stay longer and spend more.
Again, note that the math will show that there is an optimal size for attaining each tier, and Fleets larger than the optimal size will not get to the next tier faster by any appreciable amount. For Tier 1 you'd need to spend around 4000% more resources for around 15% faster advancement. That's four thousand percent, as in an additional amount of resources equal to 40 times the original cost. This is why most Fleets hit Tier 1 at roughly the same time - being larger than the optimal size won't give you much benefit.
Note also that "optimal size" only applies to the current system where it acts as a soft cap. The alternative they had considered was a hard cap, and that number would be "minimum size required". The reason things are difficult is because you're hitting the soft cap - you're not supposed to be able to advance much further without great difficulty.
Fleets that are smaller made up of friends with similar jobs/lifestyles, similar habits and live in the same time zone are the most likely to meet up in game for organized events this means a smaller fleet will spend more time in-game comparatively not only that but at the moment they have to in order to progress.
In addition what you fail to remember is that apart from Zen to Dilithium and Ship modules there is nothing in the Fleet system that can bought with RL money. If you could by Fleet Marks or Fleet Progression XP with Zen I could understand.
What you've done is taken a generic study which was already flawed then applied it to this game assuming that it would be true.
Now if I had some sourced data from this game that proves your point I'd be inclined to agree. As it stands I see nothing in allowing Small Fleets to progress at the same speed as big ones, in-fact I think it would bring a lot of people back who left the game because their fleets got mothballed as a result of Season 7 changes. That would bring in revenue.
As it stands even if your right at the moment if we believe what you say small fleet players aren't staying in game or buying things anyways so the status quo is already a negative and revenue loss, giving something to entice those in small fleets to play more will trigger revenue gain.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
If was even remotely true, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Because the members of the small fleets would be actively working on their base. So all these doom and gloom posts about the death of small fleets wouldn't be needed.
Basically your whole post is nothing but a very thin justification for why you should be given a handout and should be asked to pay a fraction of the cost that a larger fleet does.
Why exactly should you be given special treatment? The idea that this would somehow be a net gain for PWE's bottom line is laughable at best.
So again, why should you be given special treatment? Why should Cryptic give a small fleet such a big advantage over a larger one?
You also don't seem to understand what the point was - it isn't that you spend less in smaller groups, it's that you are less likely to remain as long. Certainly in a subscription game this would be true, but here it's simply opportunity to spend money.
In finance you don't concern yourself with the individual outliers, you look at the general trends. The simple fact is that people in larger groups tend to stick to something longer, because the social aspect can replace the initial motivation for longer. They want people to play long enough to buy everything available. So they're going to want people in bigger groups, and they're not going to provide any incentive to be in smaller groups. Giving an advantage to lower sizes (via scaling requirements) would essentially be encouraging the larger fleets to splinter. That's not something corporate would approve of.
The suggestions that some of us have made keep that in mind - projects with adjusted resource/time ratios based on current results can neatly sidestep those concerns. Smaller fleets will have an easier time (lowered costs), but no arbitrary advantage (same duration).
What I found, is the one thing that small fleets have over larger ones is the provisioning. That is the one thing driving large fleets crazy. While a large fleet can easily grind the Starbase level tiers, the provisioning of the large will bring all things back in line with the smaller fleets. What mean is, just look at the resources needed for a fleet to grant the same level of provisioning you will see that a the large the fleet the more provisioning projects need to maintain a certain provisioning level.
I'm not just talking about the starships but the weapons, armor and fleet goodies that most players want. If we only look at the resources needed for the core of the starbase, of course a fleet of 50 plus members will have to contribute a tenth of what my fleet members need to contribute. And fleet with over 100 members the numbers needed would make any Ferengi say: "Only fools pay retail".
The provisioning level are in a direct relationship with the number of active members who want to draw from them, an yes fleet leaders divvy out or make rules for them. It still means if fleet leader johnny wants a fleet ship than all his fleet members are going to help him provision that ship like it or not. The grass is not always greener on the other side.
So what does this mean, it still makes for a major grind. Add in the fact, that the writing on the wall is more reputation systems are inbound. More endless grinding for a +1% change to trigger a % chance to stun your enemy for 1 sec. I like the reputation system, just not the Dilithium sink and Dilithium cost of stuff in it. But back to the topic of this thread.
The way I see it there are three tiers for fleet size;
A Fleet with 25 or under active players, Let's call it a small fleet, Tier I.
A Fleet with 50 or so active players, Let's call it an average fleet, Tier II.
A Fleet with over 100 active players, Let's call it a large fleet, Tier III.
First what is an active player, for me an active player is, one unique login that has played for at least an average of once a week for the last three months.
Now take the active player numbers over the 3 to 6 months and we have what tier the fleet is in.
Over all I would love to see a ten percent reduction in all fleet projects. Now how about being able to contribute raw Dilithium ore to your fleet. Then make duty officer missions that convert it, allowing fleet leaders to assign to projects. The amount that could be converted would scale with the fleet tier so smaller fleets could convert more but would need to use more duty officers to do so.
Also I would love a new storage system were fleet members could "pre" contribute items for fleet projects, the launchers, stem bolts. Why can't we contribute duty officers of a higher grade to projects, why is only a common needed but I can't willing give up a green or blue.
Once again these are only my ideas, and I have yet to see or hear anything to any effect from cryptic other Dastahl comments on the 14th.
A large fleet doesn't equal more play time, it just means that in one hour of game play a member's duty to the fleet is filled. STO doesn't have hour long raids. Up in till a few weeks ago half my fleet would play every night for two or three hours. Dastahl's go big or go home speech ended that. I have turned down players who wanted invites. We don't recruit. We are a small band of players who know each other and have played across many games. For us it all about the game and having fun, not endlessly grinding for shines. If you want to raid for hours with a guild go play Guild Wars or WoW .
Seen the same 'many hands make quicker work' rubbish taken from real life and then applied here when we wouldn't even be building our own bases in real life.
Seen the same 'it would take years to build' rubbish again taken from real life and then added here when we don't apply that logic to a ship bought out of a lockbox just for starters.
Seen the same 'bigger fleets would have better equipment' TRIBBLE taken from real life when it's not even the case in real life. Most countries seem to have special ops of some sort.....you know small units, obviously they use discarded old rifles and such with being small and all that.
Seen the same complaints that bigger fleets have provisioning problems which evens things out, well no it doesn't. I would rather have things finished and be waiting on provisioning then not even seeing the prospect of a SB being built for years to come. How are big fleets offering people deals for them to go buy things when they can't provision, are they putting outsiders before the people that helped them build their base? If big fleets have provisioning problems they should bang the drum about it and ask for action instead of using it to somehow excuse why small fleets are getting the shaft.
Now I see some more irrelevant info about people in bigger fleets spending more which seems to use info from other MMO's, well this is not other MMO's. STO was built on solo play and before the SB system came in grouping wasn't even used much apart from when people needed to STF or when the minority used it for PvP. Even now judging by the amount of threads I see around people don't like grouping much and given the chance (if they add resources to all content as is being asked for) people will avoid it when they can.
I have seen so many good reasons why people like to keep small close knit fleets but no matter how much people try to point the reaons why out it always seems to come back to these self entitled twisted logic arguments that bigger fleets should get things cheaper because they are bigger. Now I see they are even trying to add extra twisted logic without backing it up to make out that smaller fleets are wanting some sort of handout when they are already paying multiple times more per man in resources and playtime just to try and get anywhere.
Trying to apply some real life logic, we are all front line troops working for Starfleet or the KDF so we should all have access to the best equipment to use on the front line. What really matters though is that if Cryptic want my/our money then they need to treat me/us the same as everyone else and at the moment they are treating people in smaller fleets like second class citizens.
From their perspective, they've already catered to smaller groups by not implementing hard caps on Fleet holdings based on Fleet size. They're not going to make it easier to advance being in a small group than in a large group, as that would require discounting the contribution of individuals in the larger groups.
This is rather nonsensical. 1+1 = 2, and 2 > 1. What does that have to do with with "building our own bases in real life" or lockboxes? Is this the STO version of the Chewbacca Defense?
Are you saying the smaller units are not part of the larger country? Are you saying that Navy SEAL teams aren't a part of the US military?
Your own preference has nothing to do with math.
If 500 people each want something that costs 10 provisions, the group require 5000 provisions. If 10 people want something that cost 10 provisions, the group requires 100 provisions.
That still has nothing to do with expected completion times - you knew going in that it would take more time for five people to do something than five hundred. Wanting your efforts to be worth a hundred times more than a hundred other individuals is ridiculous.
So you're saying it's solo except for the team content? That Fleet content shouldn't require Fleets?
The only "self-entitled twisted logic" here is yours, arguing that smaller fleets should get things cheaper because they are smaller. Currently, every fleet pays the same regardless of size.
I agree it's ridiculous they can't just take a few minutes to toss on more project variations. Everybody loves having more choices.
They should have data on how long it's taken Fleets to hit whatever tier, so it should be pretty easy to deduce the correct cost/time ratio.
I blame the Romulans.
I stepped away from the forum last night and took stock and the reality of the situation was that I was frustrated and angry at what I saw as people being dismissive of the concerns of smaller fleets or more specifically the individuals therein.
In the cold light of day that is still no excuse because all I was really doing was arguing with folks who obviously share common interests and passions (or we would not be here in the first place) and to what ends? In order for the right to give Cryptic some more of my money. It is a bit silly when I think about it.
For me the facts of the matter are that I like my teeny tiny fleet ..... it is a part of my STO experience. I don't want to change that and so I won't. I am disappointed that the trend seems to be to push people into larger groups and yes I am disappointed that the costs for levelling my fleet are prohibitive considering there are so few of us but ultimately I would rather live with the restrictions that imposes than come across as some kind of jerk on an internet forum. I am not that person.
If we are realistic here then even if Cryptic were to give a leg up to smaller fleets it is hardly likely to be that significant a leg up .....more of a place to rest your ankle. It is not going to make all that much difference in the long run. In fact they would be mad to given that it must be one of the biggest sinks/income generators they have at the moment.
I can live with what we have done so far being a kind of vanity project and maybe treat the fleet to the odd cosmetic special project if they appeal. Rather that than have any perceived injustice spoil the game for me.
Again I am genuinely sorry if my comments in any way offended any of you. I am not a bad chap when you get to know me honestly. I think it wise to confine myself to less emotive matters from now on!
Faulty logic again, it's bigger fleets that are paying a fraction of the costs per person. I have millions of fleet credits and feel confident that the average large fleet player will have a fraction of that amount. As for your 10 people and wine example will those 10 people just drink like 10% each while an individual would drink it all?*shakes head*
If you took the time to read you would have seen that I was saying that too, you know about people saying that it would take years in real life to build a base and so on when the same people ignore that logic when a ship can come out of a lockbox in seconds.
Are you not reading again? I stated that people make out that big fleets should have an advantage because of real life when that's not even the case in real life. Often the small fleets or squads in real life are the best trained and equipped but when all is said and done all front line troops have access to the tools that they need and in this game we are all front line troops.
My maths don't come into this, as I stated you are mentioning a problem with provisions and the current system but trying to explain it away as a balancing mechanism between big and small fleets when it isn't, it's just a bad system and fleets having problems with provisioning should complain about that if it affects them.
You read minds too? I didn't really look at the numbers because..... well I am not a fortune teller and didn't we need to complete tiers to see what the new costs would be? Regardless that still doesn't mean that people should never complain about anything when it's in motion....I bet there are loads of things that you complain about in real life when you should just....well shut up apparently. Never complained about taxes, wage rises, tuition fees going up?
Well you are on a roll, seems you read the post but didn't, I guess you e-mail authors after reading their books too...Is it a short memory problem....never mind let's try again.
I said that STO has always been dominated by solo content, even with my bad memory I can remember that people used to moan a bit about there not being much group content for an MMO. I said that apart from STF's and PvP people never bothered really grouping that much as it wasn't needed, are you disputing that?
I mean even recently we had the officer reports changes because people were apparently doing that on their own instead of grouping. Small fleets group anyway, what other way can we do STF's? The point is that while we did some things as groups and still do we didn't need fleets as such especially super big fleets, end game kit should not be solely aimed at them it should be available to all especially when they want cash for it.
No they don't pay the same, I have millions of fleet credits to back up what I say while you don't. Every fleet paying the same regardless of size is exactly the problem that you fail to see but that's not a surprise when you can't even read apparently. All projects might well have the same timers but when not all projects scale costs to launch those timers you have a problem as those in small fleets pay way more before we even get to dil refining caps and such.
Please with your uber maths explain to me how a fleet of say 10 can rake up the 1 million dil (or whatever stupidly high amount is needed) for a mission in 20 hours to meet the timer cooldowns when they can only refine 8k a day?
^^ This... this is a really good idea. It answer the issue of small fleet costs (although time would be longer, the cost would be less... making it overall more accessible).
I'd support this change!
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
night.
Your primary motivator here is "I want this easier", my two motivators is "fairness" and "try to convince Cryptic to listen".
Any scaling to Fleet size fails both tests.
If you want a $10 cake but only have $5, you can buy the cake if someone else gives you $5. If that cake suddenly costs $20 dollars because someone else gave you money, it's blatantly unfair. That's called "getting ripped off". It's not a fair proposal by any measure.
Further, such proposals will likely be rightfully dismissed as whining. It is identical to someone saying they should be able to complete a 20-man Fleet action in the same time it takes a 20-player group to do so. It is against the intention of the design, so it won't be seriously considered.
This is a concern that I've already bought up - and why I say they should offer lower cost alternatives that don't affect ROI or duration, only the work and effort necessary.
They have implicitly stated that Fleet holdings are restricted by Fleet size, and I have shown that while they haven't outright capped holding levels, they have effectively implemented a soft cap. Knowing what the other party wants is key to getting them to agree to what you want. That's why I keep pointing out that Cryptic can control the ratio for a time/resource slider (or just a series of project choices at various pre-set levels), which allows them to maintain their intended target.
The slider/additional projects won't devalue anyone's effort, but makes the process considerably easier. It's the difference between 60 hours of work and 20 hours of waiting, versus 20 hours of work and 60 hours of waiting. You get a significant increase in ROI for your efforts, at the cost of less Fleet Credits (which is fair), without affecting how long it takes to achieve the next tier of Fleet holdings (which appears to be Cryptic's concern).
It's not faster, but it is easier. It's also much fairer, easier for Cryptic to implement, and doesn't change their apparent goals. That makes it more likely to actually be used than most of the other proposals in this thread.
You need to read over this again and think about what you just said.
Let me offer an analogy for you, me and my friends go down the pub to play darts and pool every Thursday evening, we've done this for about 6 years on and off. We do it because it's fun and it's social and were close friends. It's manageable and enjoyable. If running a small fleet was the same then me and my friends would be playing STO a lot more on the weekends than we currently do.
The truth is that's how human beings work when it comes to socializing. Mega fleets are just faceless entities that smaller cliques inhabit.
Lol I laugh at your idea of what special treatment is considering that Stahl stated that when they were considering which option (A or
I see no reason to reply to Darkjeff as his points have already been balanced out.
But in closing I will say this, no one has as of yet given any reason as to why Smaller fleets getting what big fleets get in the same period of time would harm the game.
In what way does a 10 man Fleet and 500 man Fleet both achieving Tier 5 in 10 months going to break the game?
Answer: It isn't.
Unless someone can give me an adequate reason to the contrary?
#2311#2700#2316#2500