Okidoki!
I'll get started kicking fleet members to be under the threshold limit to be a "small" fleet. Once we get to Tier 5, we can charge people to join our fleet.
I think scaling is a good idea, because there are many reasons to be in a small fleet but only one to be in a big one: faster progression.
So there must be a way to make sure it will take a comparable time to complete the projects.
What i mean is this:
Goal is, that a small fleet of 10 like ppl will manage to complete the whole starbase in say 2 years, while you make sure a fleet of 500 still needs at least 1 year.
So you have to design some sort of dynamic capping.
That could be a time based way to increase the maximum number of members, as well as a penalty for the reduction.
That means it should take a time before a big fleet that kicks members get the benefit of doing so.
Another way would be a system where all sizes of fleets will take the same time to complete all projects, like for example the progress raises for every day, where at least 1 player has been online for 1 hour at least and contributed anything for the fleet.
Since you still need fleet credits to buy stuff, ppl would surely do so.
However, I think the worst problem atm is the dilithium sink. The progress of my fleet stalled completely because of this. After completition of T3 contributing is not an option for us anymore, since everyone needs dilithium for their own purposes aka omega and romulan projects as well as gear, lockbox keys and so on.
I wish we could at least contribute unrefined dilithium for the fleet.
Okidoki!
I'll get started kicking fleet members to be under the threshold limit to be a "small" fleet. Once we get to Tier 5, we can charge people to join our fleet.
The day I start paying to join a Fleet is the day STO went the wrong direction. I contribute to a fleet, I do not PAY for membership, regardless if it is a one time fee.
Such notion sickens me, unfortunately; I see this as the way of the future regarding Fleets. It destroys the notion of what being in a guild or fleet is all about.
If this is going to be the way, then I just encourage players to seek fleets that are lower in tier. You have provision projects that members can participate in, which helps Fleets to stock up in provisions.
But all this Pay to join because we already have access to X, Y , Z is scary talk. Its something that needs to be looked at.
New Issue on the rise:
Players that either exploit Fleets to access content, and/or Fleets that exploit players by charging Fees for membership.
On a side note:
If a player who wishes to access Tier IV or higher Fleet provisions and wish to pay for it with EC or Keys etc... then that is different, because the player is given temporary access rights and has payed for services, without the intention of remaining in the fleet.
I know many here will hate me for saying this, but I think this may be a good alternative.
Fleet Mark Booster packs that can be purchased for Zen.
Something similar to the Dominion Lock Box drop that coincide with Dilithium. The VIP Dilithium mining package.
That or:
Like the experience booster packs for a set amount of hours.
This and some changes to the Fleet Mark Grinding events.
The issue here is not the time for completion of Fleet Projects, but the earning of Fleet Marks that is seriously needed for project progression.
In essence Cryptic has punished smaller to medium size Fleets solely based on their size by crippling their source of FM, while at the same time delaying on implementing an alternative.
All this was based on numbers in which I believe can be misleading at times.
I say this, if people want their starbase projections moving along at a consistant base, then allow an option to purchase with hard currency - I mean by purchasing Fleet Mark Booster Packs or Bundle packs that offer FM in the amounts of 50, 100, and 200.
Then kindly elaborate on how large fleets being alright somehow means that it's alright for Cryptic to gain a monetary incentive not to deal with the issue of fleet holding progression and small/average sized fleets.
There are now more than enough marks available in game for people who want to play the game and not just farm while at work.
darkjeff has shown mathematically earlier in this thread the optimum number of people needed in a fleet is 30, not 500. Therefore a large (more inefficient) fleet is 30+ active members, everything at or below that is "a small fleet"
dastahl has said that they had a choice of scaling the fleet requirements and they chose not to do so in favour of the possibility of allowing more fleets to reach maximum tierage. So they aren't going to scale it.
Did you actually have a point there beyond "small fleets don't matter"?
valoreah differently isn't the kind who thinks small fleets don't matter.
The point he was making I believe, is that offering a way to upgrade a SB either by buying Tiers or just FM for money, is it wouldn't likely cause an increase in the cost, because small fleets would be the only groups likely to use the cash option. So there wouldn't be as much of an incentive to jack up the price.
You're assuming Cryptic would even change the pricing/requirements for starbase progression if they offered booster packs.
Incorrect. I'm assuming that at best said costs would remain as is, and at worst increase in the event that Cryptic had a direct financial interest in keeping the starbase grind as long as possible.
Now would you kindly please answer the question: How does large fleets being able to make progress in the current system equate to it being alright for Cryptic to gain a financial dis-incentive to fix the problems said system creates for small and medium sized fleets?
The point he was making I believe, is that offering a way to upgrade a SB either by buying Tiers or just FM for money, is it wouldn't likely cause an increase in the cost, because small fleets would be the only groups likely to use the cash option. So there wouldn't be as much of an incentive to jack up the price.
Which doesn't change the fact that there would be such an incentive.
Cryptic to gain a financial dis-incentive to fix the problems said system creates for small and medium sized fleets?
You're making the assumption here that they have any intention of changing the current system so it's easier for small fleets as it is. Having a dis-incentive only matters if they had any intention of changing things in the first place.
The idea that they would increase the cost of SB's at this point seems pretty far fetched to me.
So the worse thing that would happen is that nothing would change, which may very well be the case regardless.
How is it a dis-incentive for anything in the store now?
Because store bought ships and items don't grant direct progression. You don't see cryptic selling BNPs, Romulan Marks, Expertise or Omega Marks do you?
Adding starbase booster packs wouldn't be different. You could still grind out the items for free or pay for it and get it immediately, regardless of fleet size.
Following that logic, why not just put max level characters with full reputation, purple MK XII gear of your choice and any fleet ship you want regard in the C-store?
How is it a dis-incentive for anything in the store now? You can play for a few months to earn enough dilithium to convert to Zen to buy a ship in the store, or you can plunk down the cash and buy it immediately. Adding starbase booster packs wouldn't be different. You could still grind out the items for free or pay for it and get it immediately, regardless of fleet size.
I'd be interested in a Starbase booster pack. Although the only way I could see it working one of three ways.
1. Projects would take less time to complete once resources were completed for the project
2. Projects once complete gain additional experience (ie, project x awards 1000 military xp, but with boster awards 1300 or something... )
3. Boster Packs include random # of fleet marks, doffs, refined dilithium, or commodities.
Although the bigger question would have to be what the cost of these packs are, and by what means you attain them. If they are in the c-store, would it be worth the equivalent amount of dilithium, or perhaps have a chance to grant better dilithium? It would have to be worth the zen price, otherwise there isn't much point, and you could just convert the zen to dilithium via the exchange. If it included things like fleet marks, doffs, and commodities I think it would be worth it.
Following that logic, why not just put max level characters with full reputation, purple MK XII gear of your choice and any fleet ship you want regard in the C-store?
Simple... Time.
Even if you could buy fleet marks, that doesn't change the time it takes for each project to run. Getting to max level takes time, purple MK XII gear, rep, fleet ships, ect... All require that time be spent playing the game.
Even if you could buy the marks, it still takes X hours for the projects to finish. Even buying XP boosts still require that you play the game and earn XP, it might make getting to lvl 50 faster but it doesn't stop you from having to play the game.
You're making the assumption here that they have any intention of changing the current system so it's easier for small fleets as it is. Having a dis-incentive only matters if they had any intention of changing things in the first place.
When you're considering whether or not to do something, having a new influence, be it for or against, can absolutely change the outcome.
The idea that they would increase the cost of SB's at this point seems pretty far fetched to me.
Didn't say it was likely, but given the option to milk yet another revenue stream can you really tell me with a straight face it wouldn't be at least mentioned?
There are already XP and CP booster packs in the store. Not a real difference to add the same for FMs.
Honestly I don't think FM's are going to be much of a problem after the patch today. The biggest problem facing my small fleet is the Dilithium. Trying to farm 700K plus takes a long time when you can only contribute 8K a day, and that's all assuming everyone uses all their dilithium on the base.
Honestly I don't think FM's are going to be much of a problem after the patch today.
That's right, they jacked up the amount of FM's today.
The Fleet Alert and Starbase Incursion should be over 50, and Colony Invasion nearly 60. That's what around double what they offer now?
The Defera and Nukara both got a pretty good bump in fleet marks as well. Just doing the easy missions on Defera should grant you a fairly decent stream of marks.
That's right, they jacked up the amount of FM's today.
The Fleet Alert and Starbase Incursion should be over 50, and Colony Invasion nearly 60. That's what around double what they offer now?
The Defera and Nukara both got a pretty good bump in fleet marks as well. Just doing the easy missions on Defera should grant you a fairly decent stream of marks.
Exactly, and even the PVP daily's give 50, which is adding even more.
The Dev's should have created Their own 'Cryptic Fleet' Starbase on Holodeck from the get-go...
One that any player could go to once a day and either donate toward it's advancement or purchase ONE item from it's stores.
They could have even limited a players purchasing power to every other day if They felt it was necessary.
(or what-ever limits They felt were necessary)
The prices in Their Fleet Starbase, would be much more expensive of course, in order to encourage players that are already in a Player Fleet, to purchase at their own at a discount.
The items in Their Fleet Store would also have to be in unlimited quantities, only restricted by the player having the correct amount of resources available to purchase ONE item and the base having reached the desired tier for that item.
(Obviously by this time, the base would have been at Tier-5 through the efforts of interested players.)
This would not of course, have alleviated the very slow crawl to the top for small fleets, but it would have offered another avenue for those folks to acquire the 'oh-so-desired' Fleet items.
There are three main reasons for creating a Fleet...
1) To gather and interact with friends and/or family while playing the game.
2) To acquire the extra bank spaces that come with a Fleet.
And
3) To acquire the Special Items that are included with Fleet Advancement.
The first two in reality, have no need to spend the exorbitant amount of resources to advance a fleet, since they are achievable without doing so.
(but players still could if they so desired.)
The third would have been somewhat alleviated for the smaller fleets and players not in a Fleet, if the idea above had been included from the outset.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Comments
I'll get started kicking fleet members to be under the threshold limit to be a "small" fleet. Once we get to Tier 5, we can charge people to join our fleet.
Arbitrary numbers are just that arbitrary, leave the numbers game alone and look at how and why people are floundering.
So there must be a way to make sure it will take a comparable time to complete the projects.
What i mean is this:
Goal is, that a small fleet of 10 like ppl will manage to complete the whole starbase in say 2 years, while you make sure a fleet of 500 still needs at least 1 year.
So you have to design some sort of dynamic capping.
That could be a time based way to increase the maximum number of members, as well as a penalty for the reduction.
That means it should take a time before a big fleet that kicks members get the benefit of doing so.
Another way would be a system where all sizes of fleets will take the same time to complete all projects, like for example the progress raises for every day, where at least 1 player has been online for 1 hour at least and contributed anything for the fleet.
Since you still need fleet credits to buy stuff, ppl would surely do so.
However, I think the worst problem atm is the dilithium sink. The progress of my fleet stalled completely because of this. After completition of T3 contributing is not an option for us anymore, since everyone needs dilithium for their own purposes aka omega and romulan projects as well as gear, lockbox keys and so on.
I wish we could at least contribute unrefined dilithium for the fleet.
Watch out for my Starship Comparator app at
http://ssc.levega.de or http://www.stoshipcompare.tk
The day I start paying to join a Fleet is the day STO went the wrong direction. I contribute to a fleet, I do not PAY for membership, regardless if it is a one time fee.
Such notion sickens me, unfortunately; I see this as the way of the future regarding Fleets. It destroys the notion of what being in a guild or fleet is all about.
If this is going to be the way, then I just encourage players to seek fleets that are lower in tier. You have provision projects that members can participate in, which helps Fleets to stock up in provisions.
But all this Pay to join because we already have access to X, Y , Z is scary talk. Its something that needs to be looked at.
New Issue on the rise:
Players that either exploit Fleets to access content, and/or Fleets that exploit players by charging Fees for membership.
On a side note:
If a player who wishes to access Tier IV or higher Fleet provisions and wish to pay for it with EC or Keys etc... then that is different, because the player is given temporary access rights and has payed for services, without the intention of remaining in the fleet.
BUT - To pay to join a Fleet, thats dumb
Fleet Mark Booster packs that can be purchased for Zen.
Something similar to the Dominion Lock Box drop that coincide with Dilithium. The VIP Dilithium mining package.
That or:
Like the experience booster packs for a set amount of hours.
This and some changes to the Fleet Mark Grinding events.
The issue here is not the time for completion of Fleet Projects, but the earning of Fleet Marks that is seriously needed for project progression.
In essence Cryptic has punished smaller to medium size Fleets solely based on their size by crippling their source of FM, while at the same time delaying on implementing an alternative.
All this was based on numbers in which I believe can be misleading at times.
I say this, if people want their starbase projections moving along at a consistant base, then allow an option to purchase with hard currency - I mean by purchasing Fleet Mark Booster Packs or Bundle packs that offer FM in the amounts of 50, 100, and 200.
Absolutely not. The instant this happens, Cryptic gains a massive monetary incentive to make the starbase grind even more onerous.
You want to pay several hundred dollars per tier upgrade in real cash?
Did you actually have a point there beyond "small fleets don't matter"?
Then kindly elaborate on how large fleets being alright somehow means that it's alright for Cryptic to gain a monetary incentive not to deal with the issue of fleet holding progression and small/average sized fleets.
darkjeff has shown mathematically earlier in this thread the optimum number of people needed in a fleet is 30, not 500. Therefore a large (more inefficient) fleet is 30+ active members, everything at or below that is "a small fleet"
dastahl has said that they had a choice of scaling the fleet requirements and they chose not to do so in favour of the possibility of allowing more fleets to reach maximum tierage. So they aren't going to scale it.
This leave three rather obvious options.
valoreah differently isn't the kind who thinks small fleets don't matter.
The point he was making I believe, is that offering a way to upgrade a SB either by buying Tiers or just FM for money, is it wouldn't likely cause an increase in the cost, because small fleets would be the only groups likely to use the cash option. So there wouldn't be as much of an incentive to jack up the price.
Incorrect. I'm assuming that at best said costs would remain as is, and at worst increase in the event that Cryptic had a direct financial interest in keeping the starbase grind as long as possible.
Now would you kindly please answer the question: How does large fleets being able to make progress in the current system equate to it being alright for Cryptic to gain a financial dis-incentive to fix the problems said system creates for small and medium sized fleets?
Which doesn't change the fact that there would be such an incentive.
You're making the assumption here that they have any intention of changing the current system so it's easier for small fleets as it is. Having a dis-incentive only matters if they had any intention of changing things in the first place.
The idea that they would increase the cost of SB's at this point seems pretty far fetched to me.
So the worse thing that would happen is that nothing would change, which may very well be the case regardless.
Because store bought ships and items don't grant direct progression. You don't see cryptic selling BNPs, Romulan Marks, Expertise or Omega Marks do you?
Following that logic, why not just put max level characters with full reputation, purple MK XII gear of your choice and any fleet ship you want regard in the C-store?
I'd be interested in a Starbase booster pack. Although the only way I could see it working one of three ways.
1. Projects would take less time to complete once resources were completed for the project
2. Projects once complete gain additional experience (ie, project x awards 1000 military xp, but with boster awards 1300 or something... )
3. Boster Packs include random # of fleet marks, doffs, refined dilithium, or commodities.
Although the bigger question would have to be what the cost of these packs are, and by what means you attain them. If they are in the c-store, would it be worth the equivalent amount of dilithium, or perhaps have a chance to grant better dilithium? It would have to be worth the zen price, otherwise there isn't much point, and you could just convert the zen to dilithium via the exchange. If it included things like fleet marks, doffs, and commodities I think it would be worth it.
Simple... Time.
Even if you could buy fleet marks, that doesn't change the time it takes for each project to run. Getting to max level takes time, purple MK XII gear, rep, fleet ships, ect... All require that time be spent playing the game.
Even if you could buy the marks, it still takes X hours for the projects to finish. Even buying XP boosts still require that you play the game and earn XP, it might make getting to lvl 50 faster but it doesn't stop you from having to play the game.
When you're considering whether or not to do something, having a new influence, be it for or against, can absolutely change the outcome.
Didn't say it was likely, but given the option to milk yet another revenue stream can you really tell me with a straight face it wouldn't be at least mentioned?
Boosters are not the same thing as directly selling an item, and you know it.
Secondly, FM boosts already exist.
Honestly I don't think FM's are going to be much of a problem after the patch today. The biggest problem facing my small fleet is the Dilithium. Trying to farm 700K plus takes a long time when you can only contribute 8K a day, and that's all assuming everyone uses all their dilithium on the base.
That's right, they jacked up the amount of FM's today.
The Fleet Alert and Starbase Incursion should be over 50, and Colony Invasion nearly 60. That's what around double what they offer now?
The Defera and Nukara both got a pretty good bump in fleet marks as well. Just doing the easy missions on Defera should grant you a fairly decent stream of marks.
Exactly, and even the PVP daily's give 50, which is adding even more.
That way everyone, be they in a large Fleet or a small one will be paying the same.
One that any player could go to once a day and either donate toward it's advancement or purchase ONE item from it's stores.
They could have even limited a players purchasing power to every other day if They felt it was necessary.
(or what-ever limits They felt were necessary)
The prices in Their Fleet Starbase, would be much more expensive of course, in order to encourage players that are already in a Player Fleet, to purchase at their own at a discount.
The items in Their Fleet Store would also have to be in unlimited quantities, only restricted by the player having the correct amount of resources available to purchase ONE item and the base having reached the desired tier for that item.
(Obviously by this time, the base would have been at Tier-5 through the efforts of interested players.)
This would not of course, have alleviated the very slow crawl to the top for small fleets, but it would have offered another avenue for those folks to acquire the 'oh-so-desired' Fleet items.
There are three main reasons for creating a Fleet...
1) To gather and interact with friends and/or family while playing the game.
2) To acquire the extra bank spaces that come with a Fleet.
And
3) To acquire the Special Items that are included with Fleet Advancement.
The first two in reality, have no need to spend the exorbitant amount of resources to advance a fleet, since they are achievable without doing so.
(but players still could if they so desired.)
The third would have been somewhat alleviated for the smaller fleets and players not in a Fleet, if the idea above had been included from the outset.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion