I didn't mean nerf escort damage, I meant defensive abilities. Even a Tac in an Escort can tank tac cubes in elite without moving. The way consoles have diminished returns, having less eng consoles doesn't mean that much less resists. 3 Consoles on Escort vs 4 on a cruiser ends up being something like 40% all resists on escort, 45% on cruisers.
Think about it. Cruisers only have ~25-30% more hull than escorts, but escorts have how much more DPS potential? More than 25-30%. I know there are people who say cruisers can have nice dps, yes, but if you put that same effort into an escort, it would be higher. Good cruiser vs bad escort, cruiser can have more dps. Good escort vs bad cruiser, escort can tank better. However, good escort can tank some of the hardest things in elite -and- do the highest dps. Escorts should have less hull so they can't be all-purpose. They should have to pick their targets and use hit-and-run tactics instead of "face enemy and shoot until it's dead".
I think escort damage is fine where it is. I think cruisers are just where they should be. Cruisers only feel obsolete because there is no need for their increased beef. If escorts weren't as tanky, cruisers would be useful again. As for sci vessels, the problem with them is mostly the sci abilities being nerfed. Also, enemy power levels/resists to debuffs are so high that it doesn't really matter. Tachyon Beam III + maxed Flow capacitors does like nothing to anything in elite.
I think this whole topic is TRIBBLE. During S6 Armitage did rule STF but with S7 alot of cruisers came out of mothballs, why. Because they are harder to kill. Most of the time STF fleets are a combo cruiser escort. Heck Me and a good friend dueled in a PVP. Me in a eng Fed Star cruiser with mk 11 antiproton and quantum weapons and the pre S7 borg set vs and Eng escort ZEN Prommie with better equipment and we ended in draw. so it's down to weapons, sets, BOFFs, and understanding your ships strangths and weakness.
In trek there first ever warship and escort was the Defiant. It relies on speed and manuverablity to survive. And look at the Galaxy and Sovereign. The gal was build and designed during a time of peace. While it could deliever a punch that was not it's primarly role. But since the galaxy was become more dangerous the Sov showed up and now she is more combat oriented than the Gal, they are mirror images. the sov can do many of the science and exploration as the Gal it isn't gear for that. It's gear for combat and to survive. One of my best ships in game is the Sov. the the Regent THE SOVERREIGN. becuase she can survive and dish out damage.
There are more factors than just engineering consoles and bonus defense.
Shields and thier little buffs, engines and thier buffs, BOff powers chosen and timing on use, all passives that help iether directly or indirectly by buffing a skill and even what science consoles you slot versus how your build is designed to tank.
The ability to tank is as complex as the ability to properly do spike damage.
anything thats not an escort is obsolete in pve. Only way to change that is to teach NPCs to use strategies and powers...since its impossible to make a npc fight like a human ,escorts are the most efficient ships for Pve.
in pvp all that is different....thats why PvP in a mixed team can be the most fun experience you can get from this game.
I think this whole topic is TRIBBLE. During S6 Armitage did rule STF but with S7 alot of cruisers came out of mothballs, why. Because they are harder to kill. Most of the time STF fleets are a combo cruiser escort. Heck Me and a good friend dueled in a PVP. Me in a eng Fed Star cruiser with mk 11 antiproton and quantum weapons and the pre S7 borg set vs and Eng escort ZEN Prommie with better equipment and we ended in draw. so it's down to weapons, sets, BOFFs, and understanding your ships strangths and weakness.
In trek there first ever warship and escort was the Defiant. It relies on speed and manuverablity to survive. And look at the Galaxy and Sovereign. The gal was build and designed during a time of peace. While it could deliever a punch that was not it's primarly role. But since the galaxy was become more dangerous the Sov showed up and now she is more combat oriented than the Gal, they are mirror images. the sov can do many of the science and exploration as the Gal it isn't gear for that. It's gear for combat and to survive. One of my best ships in game is the Sov. the the Regent THE SOVERREIGN. becuase she can survive and dish out damage.
Your in a cruiser with the whole borg set, ofcourse your gonna be hard to kill and there is this little thing called skill, who says your friend is on the level you are or on any decent level?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
This game need warp cores , because what escorts can do here is beyond logic.... warp core should affect all power levels , but in this game every escort can out dmg eng/sci cruisers..... even escorts of lower rank can destroy top rank cruisers.
Or restrict DHC on max 2 on escorts <----<< , not to have 4x on front and fire it like they are machine guns ..( I sense that somebody will say Blasphemy and heresy on this lol )
Your in a cruiser with the whole borg set, of course your gonna be hard to kill and there is this little thing called skill, who says your friend is on the level you are or on any decent level?
He's got a record. he is among the most dangerous guys in my fleet. If you see a series od ships, Shiva, Jackle, and Lucifer that's him. And note borg set nerf since they spilit it but it proves my point that the topic is flawed.
He's got a record. he is among the most dangerous guys in my fleet. If you see a series od ships, Shiva, Jackle, and Lucifer that's him. And note borg set nerf since they spilit it but it proves my point that the topic is flawed.
Still some of the best tanking gear around, just because the borg shield doesn't have as big of a capacity doesn't mean it sucks contrary to popular belief. Not to mention your friend is a Eng according to you, not many of those around and much less flying in escorts I imagine...maybe if your friend where flying a tac...
You said a full set...its still just as effective as it was pre s7, only different is the console doesn't count.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Stick to the facts and facts alone. We are here to try at least to improve this game.
Talking about why was defiant made is pointless in this topic and proves that you have nothing related with common sense and logic.
Facts are that cruisers (at least FED ones) are waaaaay to "fat".
They dont do proper DMG - im not saying high damage, but damage in a proper way.
Science ships...are just plain ridiculous and useless, yea they can debuff but 1escort instead of that sci ship in my party will out-DPS that debuffs etc.
Game mechanics are a problem, escorts having way to big survivability is a problem, same skill types for all classes, no specific roles in this game, practically only role (if we can call it that way) per class/ship exists and so on...
Stick to the facts and facts alone. We are here to try at least to improve this game.
Talking about why was defiant made is pointless in this topic and proves that you have nothing related with common sense and logic.
Facts are that cruisers (at least FED ones) are waaaaay to "fat".
They dont do proper DMG - im not saying high damage, but damage in a proper way.
Science ships...are just plain ridiculous and useless, yea they can debuff but 1escort instead of that sci ship in my party will out-DPS that debuffs etc.
If you're hoping that others stick to the facts and facts alone, you should set an example yourself and shy away from using extremely subjective terminology and descriptions as your facts.
Cruisers are "fat"? What's fat? Why is it in quotes?
Cruisers don't damage in a proper way? What's that mean? What's proper?
Science ships are just plain ridiculous? That's opinion not fact. Useless? That's hyperbole.
Others shouldn't be forced to adhere to your strict guidelines of fact when you're calling things ridiculous and fat.
I agree, I fly the Fleet Excelsior which is my best ship. I really hate how OP escorts have become, especially the scourge that is the JHAS. Even STO wiki says its "the best" Escort in the game and can have hulls of nearly 50,000 which more in line with a cruiser. Completely unbalanced for that type of ship.
Another problem is that the game is completely about DPS and nothing else. I seriously think Cryptic actually has the know how to do anything more interesting then DPS "races". The optional from Hive Onslaught is good because it requires one or two ships to survive the encounter with both the Unimatrix Vessels and the Queen herself. This was a good choice and made cruisers somewhat viable for this STF alone.
However, part of the problem is "beams", they just do not do enough damage to compete with duel heavy cannons. Beams need to be increased by 100% output and the power drain of cruisers decreased by 50% to be able to sustain these ships.
Plus, we need more canon and beam abilites... here are a few ideas.
Cannon: Suppressing Fire: Fires low yield cannon bursts at 50% damage but reduces power consumption by 50% Increases threat by 100% (If used on player, 10% chance to force that player to target you for 30 seconds) - Viable for Sci Ship and Cruiser Cannon and Turret Builds.
Cannon: Overload: Fires a high intensity damage burst with 20% shield penetration for 10 Seconds but power drain is increased by 150% and that canon must cooldown for 20 Seconds.
Dual Beam: EM Blast: Fires a blast that does no damage to shields but has a 10% chance to apply a damage resistance Debuff to the target "painting" it for your team. Additional weapon hits will do 10% extra bleedthrough for 30 Seconds.
Beam: Zero Elevation Phaser Strike: (From Star Trek Nemesis) Fires beams from all arrays in random directions, all cloaked vessels within 5km will be temporarily decloaked. Additionally, any torpedo strike after this ability is used will do 20% extra damage.
Attack Pattern Lambda: (From "Basics - Part 1: VOY): Take your ship into a roll, increasing defense by 50%, additionally photon torpedoes will do 20% extra damage against an unshielded target - can be chained to Torpedo: High Yield and Torpedo: Spread.
I don't think adding skills will really help. DHC are higher dps than beams, but it is somewhat averaged out by the rear turrets having lower dps. I have no problem with escorts out-damaging cruisers. That is their role. I feel like escorts can tank too well. They should be more like bops, not raptors/light cruisers. I don't even think escorts should have more hull than science vessels. Escorts are supposed to be small, higher damage (for their size) and unable to withstand attacks.
I believe their attempt at having Cruisers have more "warp core" type things was the +5 all power levels. However, that doesn't really matter because apparently escorts have 3x that bonus to weapons. I think it was said earlier, but giving cruisers/sci vessels a power drain resistance from their weapons. Cruisers have the most weapon slots. They have the most raw power potential. They should not have the lowest power levels when firing weapons. This would help with the whole cruiser dps thing, but in a more realistic way.
Overall, I think escorts should have less hull. They should keep their defense bonus, or maybe boost it even more. As for cruisers, maybe a 10% all-resist should be added to their hull. Sci vessels should have a 10% all-resist added to their shields.
Maybe cruisers should have a slow build up in weapon power drain resistance during red alert, should help them do more damage with beams and be the deadly sustained fire powerhouses they should be.
Also considering science is meant to debuff targets why are the 2 greatest debuffs in the game in the tactical tree? Why not move the properties of attack pattern beta possibly delta too into science so they can be useful to the team and also help increase their own damage too.
I'd also like to see a couple more attack patterns or maybe manoeuvres (Picard manoeuvre anyone?) which have different properties than just increase damage by X or hit multiple targets for Y. I don't want them nerfing like science has had or buffing as they are already too good.
Also lets face it with tactical team always up being required/mandatory to be able to survive on elite stf isn't it time we looked at it and the whole distribution mechanic. I'm sick of not being able to pick science team or engineering team because it will clash with tactical team which I need to keep up with the obscene amount of damage some enemies throw out.
Lots of ideas, lots of good ideas.
All I know is Sci in Sci is difficult in pvp and slow in pve. Also, I didnt want to spam canons.
In my frustration to get a decent pvp sci recon build I purchased the Vesta which has been fun and successful. Low and behold I was able to kill something with canons!
I won't offer up a solution, as either someone has already stated it better than I could have or my solution would most likely be too short sighted and not factor in all the consequences. However, I would like to echo the sentiment expressed before about the state of the game being less than ideal because escorts and or tacs are so good.:)
Still some of the best tanking gear around, just because the borg shield doesn't have as big of a capacity doesn't mean it sucks contrary to popular belief. Not to mention your friend is a Eng according to you, not many of those around and much less flying in escorts I imagine...maybe if your friend where flying a tac...
You said a full set...its still just as effective as it was pre s7, only different is the console doesn't count.
No I no longer get the shield regen since console isn't part of it. I use Covarient not borg sheilds. And it shouldn't matter what kind of toon my friend is. By your arguement escort rule no matter what. I just proved that false.
No I no longer get the shield regen since console isn't part of it. I use Covarient not borg sheilds. And it shouldn't matter what kind of toon my friend is. By your arguement escort rule no matter what. I just proved that false.
Need screen-shots, combat logs, concrete proof. For all we know you could just be blowing smoke in order to keep anything from being done to cruisers to make them better and uprooting the escort domination.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Phaser Dispersal Array:
Increased the damage of the Overload attack.
Decreased the charge up time from 4 seconds to 2 seconds.
This no longer shares a category cooldown with Cannon: Rapid Fire or Cannon: Scatter Volley.
This now has a 30 second shared cooldown with the Tachyon Blast from the Tachyon Induction Relay console.
Tachyon Induction Relay:
The Tachyon Blast from this console now increases damage to the target's Shields by 25% for 15 seconds.
If you have the three piece set bonus, your Wing Cannon Platforms will also benefit from this change, but their Tachyon Blast only increases damage to the target's shields by 5%.
These effects stack.
This no longer shares a category cooldown with Cannon: Rapid Fire or Cannon: Scatter Volley.
This now has a 30 second shared cooldown with Wing Cannon: Overload from the Phaser Dispersal Array console.
Wing Cannon Platforms:
Increased the Hull of Wing Cannon Platforms by about 25%.
Increased the Shields of Wing Cannon Platforms by about 25%.
Wing Cannon Platforms will now fire more consistently once you have initiated firing your Wing Cannons.
3 Piece Set Bonus: Updated description to indicate that the Wing Cannon: Overload and Tachyon Burst that your Platforms will use is weaker than your version.
This is a text change only.
Updated the FX and icon for the Cannon Overload attack to indicate that the power is an AoE.
This is a visual change only.
That is Cryptics understanding of class balance. More candy for escort players...
Which escorts tank tac cubes while not moving? None that actually have agro do.
My experience shows that my tac escorts ability to deal damage is about the same as my eng cruiser's ability to tank damage.
Maybe escort players should band together and make endless threads complaining that their escorts can't CC or heal? They should want everything too, just like cruiser players
Maybe escort players should band together and make endless threads complaining that their escorts can't CC or heal? They should want everything too, just like cruiser players
They don't need to complain, they already can!!
The M?bius can have a lt.commander science which gives them either superior heals or can give them repulsors 2/gravity well 1 for CC and can have a lt and ensign engineering for 2 emergency power to shield 1 on constantly with aux to SIF 1 for a hull heal and damage resist on 15s cool down. On top of this they have a commander and lt tactical station for high damage.
It also has a hull and shield similar to the horrifically OP JHAS.
You're right about the escorts sitting there tanking damage, that is just BS from that person or its in normal STF. They can have APO1 or delta 1 up 100% of the time and so get either damage resistance or become defence tanks that can't be hit.
Cruiser and science vessel players don't want everything they just want to have a function rather than healer to escort.
I have now joined the "OP escort tac-flying main toon" sect. (Can't beat em, join em) I had been gone sooo long that the 500 zen per/mo added up to the new "andy". Compared to my old excel, that I have flown since it's intro, the andy is sooo OP it isn't even funny. I come to this conclusion more each day as I get more into the groove of flying and escort and out of my old "crusier ways".
PVE difficulty is non-existant in this bird and it actualy wasn't all that much this way in the crusier. This leads me to believe that Cryptic has balanced PVE to the lowest common denoninator, being the crusier/sci. 99% of everything blows up on the initial pass in this andy. I can even take out a dreadnaught in less than 20 secs (20 man fleet) solo parked right on top of it, cannons blazing.
The problem with crusiers, as I see it, is the NERFs to tanking that happened around the skillbox revamps/F2P NERFs and the ACC NERF to beams. Same thing happened to sci with all the NERFs they've received. Constant pressure DPS is all well and good as long as you can live long enough to apply it. Crusiers can't with the possible exception of maybe the Oddy. (haven't tested this new ship v the oddy as yet). Escorts in general don't really need all those tanking/healing abilitys as they all have the best "get the flock outta dodge" buttons and with 4 eng consoles, sometimes that can actualy take awhile to get to the point where that button is needed.
The only way that PVP crusiers will be viable in this full DPS incarnation of STO is with inherant tanking abilitys that lets the sci/crusier live long enough to do it's job. Power creep via the adds with the skillbox re-vamps/C-Store, etc has long since got out of hand in this game and it will probably continue as Cryptic needs us to go after the next ship they install in the C-Store just as much as we went after the last one. The C-Store is it's own worst enemy for DPS adds, they do sell, and Cryptic has figured this out pretty fast.
You bet, the "andy" is straight P2W in my book even tho I fly 1 now.
I have now joined the "OP escort tac-flying main toon" sect. (Can't beat em, join em) I had been gone sooo long that the 500 zen per/mo added up to the new "andy". Compared to my old excel, that I have flown since it's intro, the andy is sooo OP it isn't even funny. I come to this conclusion more each day as I get more into the groove of flying and escort and out of my old "crusier ways".
You could have saved your zen, bought a Mirror Escort on the Exchange for a pittance of Energy Credits and also blown your old Excelsior out of the water. Or you could have just used the free Advanced or Patrol Escort at Rear Admiral and also done a lot better than your Excelsior.
Why?
This game is slanted toward damage. And the escorts, even the free ones and cheap ones, are better at the damage role than even the best damage dealing cruisers.
Heck you could have done that before you left the game on a break. Saved all your zen and your ECs. You may not have even had to buy the Excelsior in the first place.
With a Heavy Escort Carrier or Fleet Patrol Escort I can tank a Tac Cube in Elite. Tanking means agro. If you don't hold agro, you aren't tanking. Reverse Shield Polarity, Tac Team, Brace for Impact with Shield Distribution Doff helps a lot too. In a HEC, Elite Scorpions on Intercept mode for anti-heavy torps. Either Maco Mk XII or Assimilated Borg Set Mk XII works well enough. Defensive Tac/Escort can tank what is needed and still out damage the average cruiser. Has anyone tried using beams on an escort? One less weapon slot than a cruiser but still higher damage usually because of weapon power + you can broadside and have the high defense, instead of having to loop around to get cannons to fire half the time.
You could have saved your zen, bought a Mirror Escort on the Exchange for a pittance of Energy Credits and also blown your old Excelsior out of the water. Or you could have just used the free Advanced or Patrol Escort at Rear Admiral and also done a lot better than your Excelsior.
Why?
This game is slanted toward damage. And the escorts, even the free ones and cheap ones, are better at the damage role than even the best damage dealing cruisers.
Heck you could have done that before you left the game on a break. Saved all your zen and your ECs. You may not have even had to buy the Excelsior in the first place.
Could have. But I'm 1 of the old hold-outs that likes to fly a crusier. And that excel, up to the skillpoint revamps was something to be seen in PVE and PVP.
I had the fleet escort on an eng alt and that out DPSed the crusier even with a tac in it. But, to be honest, that was fine with me while the crusier could tank. The roles were different and way back when, constant DPS was as damaging as spike, almost.
Now? It's DPS all the way as nothing lives thru an "alpha" in PVP and PVE is set to the very lower damage rate of crusiers so the "andy" just slides it's OP way thru. I done away with the "cheese" consoles/weapon and those 5 DHCs are pretty devistating even tho I'm currently running ACCX2 Mk 11s. Already starting the Mk 12 console grind again to bring up my EC to the levels of getting the Mk 12 ACCX3s (like I had with all 6 beams/2 torps in the excel). I did pass down the weaponry to the eng as I still want to fly a crusier. Just this time, this toon will NEVER be in a PVP match and limited to PVE content only.
Just this time, this toon will NEVER be in a PVP match and limited to PVE content only.
Personally I find PvP to be more fair than PvE, at least players are limited in what they can output in terms of damage, in an elite STF if you die chances are you would be killed regardless of what you fly because usually the killer damage is enough to bring the NPC down to 50% hull HP THROUGH SHIELDS so as many people have already stated in many places it's not worth trying to tank in the game.
The only Alphas I have been unable to survive in my tac/scort of all things is one from a tac/scort backed by a subnuke beam so I am starting to move away from PvE and towards PvP.
sadly i can't post attachments yet, won't let me. But this is what i have. Mk12 boreg antiproton dual beam and arrays. mk 12 borg quantum torps. purple Mk 12 Covariant cap 2 AP shield, Borg deflector engine and console pre S7, Blue mk11 Ablative Hull, Blue mk 11 SIF, Green mk 10 tetraburium hull, Point defense, Green mk 12 Shield emitter amplifier, Green mk12 and blue mark 10 AP mag, and Green mk 11 Zero point.
Which escorts tank tac cubes while not moving? None that actually have agro do.
My experience shows that my tac escorts ability to deal damage is about the same as my eng cruiser's ability to tank damage.
Maybe escort players should band together and make endless threads complaining that their escorts can't CC or heal? They should want everything too, just like cruiser players
You dance on top of them. And yes escorts can and do tank tac cubes all the time if the ones you are grouped with are incapable of it then they need a better build.
The entire balance debate is simple, when you are capable of pushing the ships to their limits you realize how horribly bad the balance is. Otherwise you will never notice.
Comments
Think about it. Cruisers only have ~25-30% more hull than escorts, but escorts have how much more DPS potential? More than 25-30%. I know there are people who say cruisers can have nice dps, yes, but if you put that same effort into an escort, it would be higher. Good cruiser vs bad escort, cruiser can have more dps. Good escort vs bad cruiser, escort can tank better. However, good escort can tank some of the hardest things in elite -and- do the highest dps. Escorts should have less hull so they can't be all-purpose. They should have to pick their targets and use hit-and-run tactics instead of "face enemy and shoot until it's dead".
I think escort damage is fine where it is. I think cruisers are just where they should be. Cruisers only feel obsolete because there is no need for their increased beef. If escorts weren't as tanky, cruisers would be useful again. As for sci vessels, the problem with them is mostly the sci abilities being nerfed. Also, enemy power levels/resists to debuffs are so high that it doesn't really matter. Tachyon Beam III + maxed Flow capacitors does like nothing to anything in elite.
In trek there first ever warship and escort was the Defiant. It relies on speed and manuverablity to survive. And look at the Galaxy and Sovereign. The gal was build and designed during a time of peace. While it could deliever a punch that was not it's primarly role. But since the galaxy was become more dangerous the Sov showed up and now she is more combat oriented than the Gal, they are mirror images. the sov can do many of the science and exploration as the Gal it isn't gear for that. It's gear for combat and to survive. One of my best ships in game is the Sov. the the Regent THE SOVERREIGN. becuase she can survive and dish out damage.
Shields and thier little buffs, engines and thier buffs, BOff powers chosen and timing on use, all passives that help iether directly or indirectly by buffing a skill and even what science consoles you slot versus how your build is designed to tank.
The ability to tank is as complex as the ability to properly do spike damage.
R.I.P
in pvp all that is different....thats why PvP in a mixed team can be the most fun experience you can get from this game.
Exaclty. A tac with a BEAM CRUISER as man ship
Your in a cruiser with the whole borg set, ofcourse your gonna be hard to kill and there is this little thing called skill, who says your friend is on the level you are or on any decent level?
Or restrict DHC on max 2 on escorts <----<< , not to have 4x on front and fire it like they are machine guns
He's got a record. he is among the most dangerous guys in my fleet. If you see a series od ships, Shiva, Jackle, and Lucifer that's him. And note borg set nerf since they spilit it but it proves my point that the topic is flawed.
Still some of the best tanking gear around, just because the borg shield doesn't have as big of a capacity doesn't mean it sucks contrary to popular belief. Not to mention your friend is a Eng according to you, not many of those around and much less flying in escorts I imagine...maybe if your friend where flying a tac...
You said a full set...its still just as effective as it was pre s7, only different is the console doesn't count.
Stick to the facts and facts alone. We are here to try at least to improve this game.
Talking about why was defiant made is pointless in this topic and proves that you have nothing related with common sense and logic.
Facts are that cruisers (at least FED ones) are waaaaay to "fat".
They dont do proper DMG - im not saying high damage, but damage in a proper way.
Science ships...are just plain ridiculous and useless, yea they can debuff but 1escort instead of that sci ship in my party will out-DPS that debuffs etc.
Game mechanics are a problem, escorts having way to big survivability is a problem, same skill types for all classes, no specific roles in this game, practically only role (if we can call it that way) per class/ship exists and so on...
If you're hoping that others stick to the facts and facts alone, you should set an example yourself and shy away from using extremely subjective terminology and descriptions as your facts.
Cruisers are "fat"? What's fat? Why is it in quotes?
Cruisers don't damage in a proper way? What's that mean? What's proper?
Science ships are just plain ridiculous? That's opinion not fact. Useless? That's hyperbole.
Others shouldn't be forced to adhere to your strict guidelines of fact when you're calling things ridiculous and fat.
You need to post and debate in a proper way.
Another problem is that the game is completely about DPS and nothing else. I seriously think Cryptic actually has the know how to do anything more interesting then DPS "races". The optional from Hive Onslaught is good because it requires one or two ships to survive the encounter with both the Unimatrix Vessels and the Queen herself. This was a good choice and made cruisers somewhat viable for this STF alone.
However, part of the problem is "beams", they just do not do enough damage to compete with duel heavy cannons. Beams need to be increased by 100% output and the power drain of cruisers decreased by 50% to be able to sustain these ships.
Plus, we need more canon and beam abilites... here are a few ideas.
Cannon: Suppressing Fire: Fires low yield cannon bursts at 50% damage but reduces power consumption by 50% Increases threat by 100% (If used on player, 10% chance to force that player to target you for 30 seconds) - Viable for Sci Ship and Cruiser Cannon and Turret Builds.
Cannon: Overload: Fires a high intensity damage burst with 20% shield penetration for 10 Seconds but power drain is increased by 150% and that canon must cooldown for 20 Seconds.
Dual Beam: EM Blast: Fires a blast that does no damage to shields but has a 10% chance to apply a damage resistance Debuff to the target "painting" it for your team. Additional weapon hits will do 10% extra bleedthrough for 30 Seconds.
Beam: Zero Elevation Phaser Strike: (From Star Trek Nemesis) Fires beams from all arrays in random directions, all cloaked vessels within 5km will be temporarily decloaked. Additionally, any torpedo strike after this ability is used will do 20% extra damage.
Attack Pattern Lambda: (From "Basics - Part 1: VOY): Take your ship into a roll, increasing defense by 50%, additionally photon torpedoes will do 20% extra damage against an unshielded target - can be chained to Torpedo: High Yield and Torpedo: Spread.
More variety and utility for all weapons
I believe their attempt at having Cruisers have more "warp core" type things was the +5 all power levels. However, that doesn't really matter because apparently escorts have 3x that bonus to weapons. I think it was said earlier, but giving cruisers/sci vessels a power drain resistance from their weapons. Cruisers have the most weapon slots. They have the most raw power potential. They should not have the lowest power levels when firing weapons. This would help with the whole cruiser dps thing, but in a more realistic way.
Overall, I think escorts should have less hull. They should keep their defense bonus, or maybe boost it even more. As for cruisers, maybe a 10% all-resist should be added to their hull. Sci vessels should have a 10% all-resist added to their shields.
Also considering science is meant to debuff targets why are the 2 greatest debuffs in the game in the tactical tree? Why not move the properties of attack pattern beta possibly delta too into science so they can be useful to the team and also help increase their own damage too.
I'd also like to see a couple more attack patterns or maybe manoeuvres (Picard manoeuvre anyone?) which have different properties than just increase damage by X or hit multiple targets for Y. I don't want them nerfing like science has had or buffing as they are already too good.
Also lets face it with tactical team always up being required/mandatory to be able to survive on elite stf isn't it time we looked at it and the whole distribution mechanic. I'm sick of not being able to pick science team or engineering team because it will clash with tactical team which I need to keep up with the obscene amount of damage some enemies throw out.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
All I know is Sci in Sci is difficult in pvp and slow in pve. Also, I didnt want to spam canons.
In my frustration to get a decent pvp sci recon build I purchased the Vesta which has been fun and successful. Low and behold I was able to kill something with canons!
I won't offer up a solution, as either someone has already stated it better than I could have or my solution would most likely be too short sighted and not factor in all the consequences. However, I would like to echo the sentiment expressed before about the state of the game being less than ideal because escorts and or tacs are so good.:)
No I no longer get the shield regen since console isn't part of it. I use Covarient not borg sheilds. And it shouldn't matter what kind of toon my friend is. By your arguement escort rule no matter what. I just proved that false.
Need screen-shots, combat logs, concrete proof. For all we know you could just be blowing smoke in order to keep anything from being done to cruisers to make them better and uprooting the escort domination.
That is Cryptics understanding of class balance. More candy for escort players...
Which escorts tank tac cubes while not moving? None that actually have agro do.
My experience shows that my tac escorts ability to deal damage is about the same as my eng cruiser's ability to tank damage.
Maybe escort players should band together and make endless threads complaining that their escorts can't CC or heal? They should want everything too, just like cruiser players
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They don't need to complain, they already can!!
The M?bius can have a lt.commander science which gives them either superior heals or can give them repulsors 2/gravity well 1 for CC and can have a lt and ensign engineering for 2 emergency power to shield 1 on constantly with aux to SIF 1 for a hull heal and damage resist on 15s cool down. On top of this they have a commander and lt tactical station for high damage.
It also has a hull and shield similar to the horrifically OP JHAS.
You're right about the escorts sitting there tanking damage, that is just BS from that person or its in normal STF. They can have APO1 or delta 1 up 100% of the time and so get either damage resistance or become defence tanks that can't be hit.
Cruiser and science vessel players don't want everything they just want to have a function rather than healer to escort.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
PVE difficulty is non-existant in this bird and it actualy wasn't all that much this way in the crusier. This leads me to believe that Cryptic has balanced PVE to the lowest common denoninator, being the crusier/sci. 99% of everything blows up on the initial pass in this andy. I can even take out a dreadnaught in less than 20 secs (20 man fleet) solo parked right on top of it, cannons blazing.
The problem with crusiers, as I see it, is the NERFs to tanking that happened around the skillbox revamps/F2P NERFs and the ACC NERF to beams. Same thing happened to sci with all the NERFs they've received. Constant pressure DPS is all well and good as long as you can live long enough to apply it. Crusiers can't with the possible exception of maybe the Oddy. (haven't tested this new ship v the oddy as yet). Escorts in general don't really need all those tanking/healing abilitys as they all have the best "get the flock outta dodge" buttons and with 4 eng consoles, sometimes that can actualy take awhile to get to the point where that button is needed.
The only way that PVP crusiers will be viable in this full DPS incarnation of STO is with inherant tanking abilitys that lets the sci/crusier live long enough to do it's job. Power creep via the adds with the skillbox re-vamps/C-Store, etc has long since got out of hand in this game and it will probably continue as Cryptic needs us to go after the next ship they install in the C-Store just as much as we went after the last one. The C-Store is it's own worst enemy for DPS adds, they do sell, and Cryptic has figured this out pretty fast.
You bet, the "andy" is straight P2W in my book even tho I fly 1 now.
R.I.P
You could have saved your zen, bought a Mirror Escort on the Exchange for a pittance of Energy Credits and also blown your old Excelsior out of the water. Or you could have just used the free Advanced or Patrol Escort at Rear Admiral and also done a lot better than your Excelsior.
Why?
This game is slanted toward damage. And the escorts, even the free ones and cheap ones, are better at the damage role than even the best damage dealing cruisers.
Heck you could have done that before you left the game on a break. Saved all your zen and your ECs. You may not have even had to buy the Excelsior in the first place.
Could have. But I'm 1 of the old hold-outs that likes to fly a crusier. And that excel, up to the skillpoint revamps was something to be seen in PVE and PVP.
I had the fleet escort on an eng alt and that out DPSed the crusier even with a tac in it. But, to be honest, that was fine with me while the crusier could tank. The roles were different and way back when, constant DPS was as damaging as spike, almost.
Now? It's DPS all the way as nothing lives thru an "alpha" in PVP and PVE is set to the very lower damage rate of crusiers so the "andy" just slides it's OP way thru. I done away with the "cheese" consoles/weapon and those 5 DHCs are pretty devistating even tho I'm currently running ACCX2 Mk 11s. Already starting the Mk 12 console grind again to bring up my EC to the levels of getting the Mk 12 ACCX3s (like I had with all 6 beams/2 torps in the excel). I did pass down the weaponry to the eng as I still want to fly a crusier. Just this time, this toon will NEVER be in a PVP match and limited to PVE content only.
Personally I find PvP to be more fair than PvE, at least players are limited in what they can output in terms of damage, in an elite STF if you die chances are you would be killed regardless of what you fly because usually the killer damage is enough to bring the NPC down to 50% hull HP THROUGH SHIELDS so as many people have already stated in many places it's not worth trying to tank in the game.
The only Alphas I have been unable to survive in my tac/scort of all things is one from a tac/scort backed by a subnuke beam so I am starting to move away from PvE and towards PvP.
You dance on top of them. And yes escorts can and do tank tac cubes all the time if the ones you are grouped with are incapable of it then they need a better build.
The entire balance debate is simple, when you are capable of pushing the ships to their limits you realize how horribly bad the balance is. Otherwise you will never notice.
GAME, SET, MATCH BOOYAH!