Well the problem with increasing cruisers damage resistance is that they still cant output enough damage to kill tac ships. So to combat that they either need to make tacs like they are in the shows. Output ungodly damage but make them true glass cannons, or increas the amount of damage a cruiser does. I mean think about it... A tac shouldn't be able to out tank a cruiser. It just doesnt make sense.
There is always ground combat where geers and sci are needed.
Yeah I'd actually argue that a well built SCI and ENG are both quite valuable in ground. There just needs to be more opportunities for them to show it.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
I find KDF cruisers are ok but as im not in a fleet they are starting to struggle with ELITE games,,,,,,,use to do them in a RETRO BIRD of PRAY no chance now,,,,,,,,,after trying lots i found FED cruisers are a waste of time,,,,,,,,,,,
Really, really, really bad analogy. Battleships were rendered obsolete by the introduction of the aircraft carrier, which enabled small, maneuverable and highly deadly craft to enter the battle space.
Sound familiar?
(Note: not making an argument for or against current balance points, just pointing out that asking for WWII era battleship balance is not the brightest concept when asking for a cruiser buff)
No, because fighters can be stopped by hand-held arms or getting clever.
The nicest approach would be to buff cruisers, but the problems started (started not ended, it went further) when escorts got taken out of the 'glass house' domain and put into the near cruiser level hull, shields, and defences. While still keeping their fire power and manoeuvrability.
Edit: In affect, cruiser or science ship fire power doesn't go nearly as far as it did, and escort fire power now goes a lot further.
Yeah I'd actually argue that a well built SCI and ENG are both quite valuable in ground. There just needs to be more opportunities for them to show it.
I wouldn't. I spend most of my time running away?
Why? Because for all the setup time my engineer or science captain needs, it doesn't take one tactical to queue (lunge/pounce), ambush, roll for a flank, and use a cryowave to do more damage then a fully buffed engineer ,in a bunker, and with 5 ticks from the elite fleet shield going can safely shrug off and still win. (If they even survive)
I think we all know that any serious look isn't going to happen. To do that you have to pay for dev time QA time/salary (if cryptic still uses such an otre notion). While in the mean time they can easily whip out some LB/cstore pixle collection that took about a week of work and get an immediate return on investment since morons will stand in line to buy it then speend a week on the forums *_____ing* about it...yea
That's a easy question. For there to be a multi-player game there must be more then one player.
If you make it very easy for one player, and very hard for hard for the other player before gear or skill comes into play? Someone is not going to be having fun. Player not having fun don't play games.
Their current strategy is a death spiral milking the game for all they can get before they finally choke the game to death.
Ships are as only as good as their captains. DPS isn't a function of the weapons, it's a function of the build and the person who uses it. Make no mistake, a skilled captain is deadly regardless of the the ship or weapons used.
Not too long ago, someone took the time to explain how to use my boff skills effectively. My dps more than doubled. And that's as it should be. Yes, it sucks when changes impact your build. Get over it.
If you're not grasping that that game is more than an arbitrary dps value, then either you're in the wrong MMO. or you fixate on PvP way too much.
My two bits.
Admiral Thrax
You're focusing too much on raw dps rather than on ship ROLES...and the non-existent need/role for anything that is not raw dps.
Sci ships cant do science. its been nerfed that badly its not even worth bothering with.
Cruisers still are good tanks but escorts now tank just as well if not better with the messed up NPC damage mechanics. Ergo, cruisers 'meat' tank (take hits, heal it, keep aggro) whereas escorts speed tank (very high def to make hits miss and have enough healing ability to counter the few hits that do strike). Sci ships (aside from carriers) can't do either.
then we get to escorts. they can speed tank even better than cruisers meat tank..they output massive amounts of dps and since the game is now dps-centric there is no need for debuffing or crowd control science ships...because the escorts kill them so fast there's no point to them.
that is what is making cruisers as obsolete as sci ships.
If you have an armitage or jemhadar escort carrier try this:
aegis engine, deflector. KHG shield (adapted maco).
captain skill boxes: impulse engine 6+, starship maneuvers 9 and the usual points into warp core and other power bonus boxes. engine is quite nice for this if you have any in it.
any pet.
3 doffs of +10% def to carrier when pets on recall.
Elusive trait
dual atk pattern omega
Here's the magic math:
def bonus at full speed (full engine power): 70%
+ 30% from doffs
+10% from aegis
+20% from atk omega
+10% elusive trait
=140% def.
Icing on the cake:
+25% accuracy reduction upon enemies of KHG shield (procs so much it aint funny).
== You aint getting hit anywhere close to danger levels. you can circle the ISE gate or tac cube nonstop firing at it and your combat spam NPC->you will read: MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS HIT MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS.
The impressive thing is, you put evasive maneuvers in between the atk omega cycles and you permanently run at this 140% (or higher when evasive maneuvers is up).
You cant use this setup on anything BUT an escort. cruisers have lower def ratings and their low turn rate makes turning lower speed and def rating significantly..so it is with sci ship (unless its a very turny one but even then, no dual omega in sci ships).
So that alone throws any tanking out the window. cruisers are obsolete for tanking.
then what? science? all offensive sci abilities were nerfed to high heaven. not even drains are threatening anymore since the great Whine from escorts about how drains were killing them nonstop. Funny how a ship that can run out of range whined his power was sucked out in 10 seconds...its like they couldnt respond to a threat on a ship quite capable of dealing with said threat. meh.
DPS centric is what this game is now. Escorts Online.
As the gap widens (is already being made worse by more and more escort DPS capability, will be made even worse with a PvP centric rep), Cruisers are falling more and more behind, yet they are generally the most commonly picked ship type for new players, as ships like the Connie and Galaxy are icons of the franchise. When these players enter a PvP and see how they get utterly annihilated, they will realise the state of the game. It is in Cryptic's interests to do something, as it is not good when your most paraded and advertised feature (the ST ships we know and love) is actually a giant white elephant.
The sad thing is, I may get three DOffs in my carrier for the +30% defence. That may end up being one of the more useful things I can do with them todate.
As "Concerning Cruisers" was pretty much starting to rehash everything that's being said in this thread, I have merged it here.
Let's keep our feedback focused and not have two or more discussions about the same thing going on at the same time, thanks!
~Bluegeek
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Hmm just had an idea. Maby a new type of phaser cannon for cruisers? Sort of like the beam array but 250 degree. That would give cruisers higher dps. All cruiser would have to be able to equip cannons then. :S Just thought it would look cool ^,..,^
Of how this game was before whatever amateur up the cryptic food chain decided to destroy the role of ship classes in this game and turn it into a stupid space shooter (read: dps -centric).
Before free-to-play the ships performed very differently.
Escorts: Did not have the ungodly damage output they have now. In fact they were the 2nd best at dealing raw damage. The escorts were very vulnerable because of their low shield and hull rating. Their primary role was focused heavy fire...they were the only ships that had the speed and turn rate to keep hitting one shield facing. They were focused spike damage dealers.
Cruisers: Cruisers used to have the highest raw damage output. 8 weapon slots. They were darn strong tanks and were the best at threat control, tanking and team buff support.
Science: Sci ships used to be very good shield tanks but their paper thin hulls made them poor battle tanks. In fact their heavy shields were supposed to give them a chance to survive until the cruiser or escort took aggro away. The sci ship used to be extremely potent at its role: debuffing and crowd control.
A single gravity well used to suck a ship into its center and HOLD it there HARD for the entire duration of the well. It was so good that an escort could only break off if he used evasive maneuvers/polarize hull/emg to engine 2+/full power to engines. There was no other way to get out (aka atk omega did not break it). Grav well used to do in excess of 2500 damage PER TICK. It used to be EXOTIC damage type.
Power drains used to REALLY mess a ship up. The only way to counter drains was to use emg2X abilities, stun or jam the target or simply run out of weapon range to break the drain.
photonic shockwave/particle burst used to be really effective. It was hazardous to get close to a sci ship equipped with these.
atk omega used to grant immunity to holds and snares only IF it was active already. It did not use to be that if you get tractored you just hit omega and break free.
tac captain abilities did NOT use to buff sci ability damage.
Overall a sci ship used to have really weak weapon power but was a dangerous opponent to face because of its debuffing capability.
The balance was: Sci ships were the biggest danger to cruisers (debuffs), cruisers were the biggest danger to escorts (tank+hold&massive broadside shots), escorts were the biggest danger to sci ships (burst focused damage knock shields off and thump the weak hull out).
The diversity in ship loadouts and templates allowed people to become better or worse at certain tasks and targets. People used to recognize other players BY those ship templates.
Then came F2P.
In one patch science stats lost nearly 80% of their potency. Grav wells and other sci-based damage abilities were switched to kinetic damage.
The greatest irony and greatest proof of incompetence at the highest level of whoever was in charge of game design in STO is that they made the sci abilities be kinetic damage.
Why? Well, this made tac captains be the only ones that could use and abuse science ships. Overnight in the F2P patch the tac captain in a sci ship became the greatest killer in the game.
A sci captain using grav well 3 for example, at full skillpoint training for it.. barely did 800 dmg a tick. tac captain was pulling over 3000 a tick. How? Atk omega+atk alpha+go down fighting+fire on my mark+kinetic damage tac consoles (yes they boosted the grav well since it was kinetic) + sci particle consoles.
In the space of 6 months, cryptic nerfed sci again and again and again because of tac captains abusing the ship. Eventually the tac captains left the sci ship exploit to go back to their now ungodly buffed up escorts (tac capt skill boxes had become cookie-cutter simplified so they had full max damage potential with half the skill points spent than before..this was not the case for sci or engineers).
Ever since then, sci ships have been nothing more than really crappy ships at their role and barely useful as backup tanks. they dont have the weapon dps nor the sci dps...their crowd control role cannot be performed well since the abilities are nerfed so bad even slow STF drones laugh at it.
Escorts on the other hand have received buff after buff after buff. Hull HP increased, defense modifiers increased, weapon damage constantly increased.
The reason? Monetizing.
Sci cannot be monetized. It does not rely on lockbox or zen-pack weapons/ships. Upping science to what it used to be would not be profitable. Escorts on the other hand, require much pew-pew items and high dps ships are much sought after... because the game has been increasingly made into a dps-centric format.
The andorian ship, the vesta line, the odyssey...the lockbox ships...what do they have in common? increasing reliance on damage output rather than science or engineering performance.
Vestas are literally a cruiser with sci ship abilities but their primary benefit is weapon/damage output. aux cannons? Hello?
Sci is dead and nailed down into the coffin... by order of cryptic higher ups. It will never be fixed or given a role in the game.
The sad truth is as of this moment sci captains are best putting their skillpoints into tactical and tanking abilities and flying escorts, cruisers or carriers.
my fleet does stfs in 4-5 minutes with cruisers and sci ships. all of us pulling between 8-11k dps. sorry but this whole theory that only escorts do damage is TRIBBLE and people need to stop blaming their ships for their faulty builds.
I like to think I am a fair to good cruiser pilot with my engineer, I help keep my team alive and my fleet heavy cruiser does good damage... for a cruiser. But I get the feeling that most times I would be of more use in an escort. Because outside of pvp, and even there to a small degree damage is king.
I actually place a good deal of the blame for the cruiser weakness on the trend of DHC and dual cannons becoming the end all be all of damage dealing. People say that you are hurting your setup not running all DHCs up front on escorts. I remember when even escorts would field a torp or dual beam bank or *gasp* even both, because it was worth it to do so, mines were also common. Skills like high yield and beam overload were useful in part due to cool downs, and energy drain from cannons or because the escort was fragile enough to need to put power into shields to live long enough to get healed or run. There was so much variety.
Beams also used to be useful so much so that there were even a few beam escorts around. Beams hit their mark, they were the best thing for picking off fighters, mines, and torps. You could even do it without fire at will by rapidly tabbing through targets. Also sustained dps was also useful because you could wear down targets; cool downs, power levels and debuffs would eventually leave targets vulnerable. Now, I will admit that fire at will was overpowered at one point, but the nerf to beams and beam powers has made them far less useful. Anyone remember when Galaxy Refits were running around with dual beams for when the saucer was separated? When is the last time you saw any good player flying a Galaxy other than the maybe an X (another broken ship, which in light of how nice other zen store ships are needs a boost) in ESTFs? Because I can't think of any for a long, long, long time.
Now cannon powers like scatter volley out shine beam powers. I would like to see beams get an across the board accuracy buff and a mild damage buff. Beams should be the best choice for killing fighters and projectiles. Beam powers need to work, overload should a nice dangerous weapon. Torps could use some looking at too, anything to move away from nothing but DHCs (including nerfing them). Engineers need working powers that either buff dps, buff the team, or debuff the enemy. They need something to do other than tank/heal (cruiser tanking is healing). I say this because science players used to be able to debuff and control and heal/buff. Tac captains can plug into a cruiser and with the current skill point system do a good job healing, heck they can even do some ok healing in their escorts now. All the team (sci/tac/eng team) skills need looking at and should be useful.
Also lower the gains from speed tanking, and trim a little from hp from escort hulls. Also maybe take a look at lower level engineering skills, that ensign slot could use some help. I have some thoughts on science ships, but I will save that for another post.
What I miss most is the variety of ships, weapons, and powers. Sure I can do ok now as an engineer in a cruiser. But don't fool yourself no amount of skill is going to overcome the current overwhelming usefulness of escorts and cannons.
Too right and I think TT should be changed too, if we need such an ability that redistributes shields to always be up, just to survive, it should either be a part of each team ability or it should be an ability in each class of skills.
TT is actually a "must have". A good solution is (IMHO) giving ST1 as a native ability of sci ships (only usable on another player) and ET1 as a native ability of cruisers (only usable on a another player)
Why wouldn't all classes be capable of being DPS's?
stated that you can't have a god mode, my weak cruiser/eng captain equiped only with BA and BFaW can deal 4500-5000 dps (enough for a support ship) and my wells/sci captain deal even more dps.
But most player do not spend time/resources to have a good build.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
TT is actually a "must have". A good solution is (IMHO) giving ST1 as a native ability of sci ships (only usable on another player) and ET1 as a native ability of cruisers (only usable on a another player)
stated that you can't have a god mode, my weak cruiser/eng captain equiped only with BA and BFaW can deal 4500-5000 dps (enough for a support ship) and my wells/sci captain deal even more dps.
But most player do not spend time/resources to have a good build.
Still seem to be forgetting why bring someone who can do 5k dps when you can do much more in a escort in a game based around DPS is king.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
1 - sci powers should once more cause @exotic@ damage, so that a buffed tac does not make more DMG as a sci with sci powers
2 - the dmg output and power of effect of all sci skills should be raised
3 - beam weapons - cryptic should adjust dmg vs distance ratio
- beams should have 80% effectivity at 10km, 100% at 5 km
- DHC'S should have 50% effectivity at 10km, 100% at 4 km
So you're suggesting to fix cruisers you should Buff DHC damage at range? Because that change favours escorts more than cruisers.
This is why you can't have a reasonable discussion on the topic, people don't understand combat to start with, then complain that its broken and they know how to fix it.
my fleet does stfs in 4-5 minutes with cruisers and sci ships. all of us pulling between 8-11k dps. sorry but this whole theory that only escorts do damage is TRIBBLE and people need to stop blaming their ships for their faulty builds.
Did you even read what I posted? Its not about DAMAGE of other ships its about escort's damage being so ridiculously high and them having such a ridiculously good ability to speed tank that makes cruisers and sci ships obsolete.
and btw, I can solo a normal stf in my ship too in 4-5 minutes. Did you mean elite stfs? If so, go hop your team into escorts and see just how much faster and easier you do it.
There is no role left in this game other than raw DPS. Only one ship and only one captain type is fully geared for that.
This is why you can't have a reasonable discussion on the topic, people don't understand combat to start with, then complain that its broken and they know how to fix it.
<irony> And the whole point of a discussion is that there is no "one, true way" to fix combat, otherwise the Devs would have already implemented it and we wouldn't be here now, would we? </irony>
For example, taking the recently-mentioned cannon range extension as a possible compensation to moving science damage to exotic categories - I'm all for it, though I'd only extend the 100% damage range out to 3km instead of 4km - knowing that not only escorts get this bonus, so do most KDF cruisers and a handful of other ships (Gal-X, Recluse, Vesta, Chel'Gret to name a few) that can mount cannons.
To me, though, the whole combat system needs to be reexamined, any situation where evasion + rep heals + set bonuses + abilities > damage a cruiser or science vessel can spit out, that is a problem. Let's get the game back to a situation where any ship class can blow up any ship in combat, then let's discuss fine-tuning the individual situations like "does GW do too much damage", or "cannons are OP at 3km"...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I dont like the word Role for my engineer/cruiser or science character
A cruiser is not a Tac/escorts Medic or meatshield the entire idea is Dumb for
a star trek space game
This is a DPS game and science and cruisers need more DPS from abilitys linked to the ships and character classes
If a Tac/Escort needs a medic or meatshield he needs to LTP
I dont need one in my escort
Science ship/Science character ; bonus to DPS
Engineer/Cruiser; Bonus to DPS
Until balence is made
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
As someone who likes big ships like cruisers and carriers,I'd like to say sometimes we don't heal other people for the same reasons they didn't heal themselves,they just didnt seem that important.
I tried building a cruiser to tank elite stf's,and sure you can get one rather tough,but your still gonna get taken out by some insane one hit damage.Even with maxed threat control it can be a huge pain to try and pull agro from the escorts,and doesnt pay off at the end of the day anyways.
I'm fine with the whole dps is king atm because healing/tanking is a joke.Won't stop me from trying,but I know it's a losing battle so I don't even worry about it anymore.
I dont like the word Role for my engineer/cruiser or science character
A cruiser is not a Tac/escorts Medic or meatshield the entire idea is Dumb for
a star trek space game
This is a DPS game and science and cruisers need more DPS from abilitys linked to the ships and character classes
If a Tac/Escort needs a medic or meatshield he needs to LTP
I dont need one in my escort
Science ship/Science character ; bonus to DPS
Engineer/Cruiser; Bonus to DPS
Until balence is made
This kind of is the problem though. Escorts have the highest damage potential -and- don't need anyone else. If a character is the highest damage, it should be the most fragile. If a character is the hardest to kill, it should probably have less damage. Nobody wants to say "nerf escorts" because 80% of the player base would whine, but it needs to be done. Buffing cruisers isn't the way, because if escorts are left as they are... it doesn't matter if someone else can tank, it isn't needed. If escorts weren't as durable, then cruisers and supports would be useful even if they remain as they are now.
Except the Escort is not any more durable thana Cruiser at all. They have the same access to every little buff that exists and the Cruiser has access an capability to there buffs in the right build.
They only Escorts have the extra 10% bonus defense for movement.
Hence why I support buffing Cruisers and Science vessels via beam changes, turn buffs and the like.
If you trap a Escort they die quickly once they can no longer bounce the incomming fir using resist stacking.
If you lower the Escorts damage then all we have is Cruisers which can not die becuase escorts will not be able to get past thier resist stacking and bonus defensive measures.
Slap some fleet elite phasers on that cruiser and it may never die.
If both parties involved can defend themselves equally yet only one can damage the other then the fix does not lie in making one now unable to do damage as well. You must increase the viability of the other to have the ability to do damage under a proper build.
I didn't mean nerf escort damage, I meant defensive abilities. Even a Tac in an Escort can tank tac cubes in elite without moving. The way consoles have diminished returns, having less eng consoles doesn't mean that much less resists. 3 Consoles on Escort vs 4 on a cruiser ends up being something like 40% all resists on escort, 45% on cruisers.
Think about it. Cruisers only have ~25-30% more hull than escorts, but escorts have how much more DPS potential? More than 25-30%. I know there are people who say cruisers can have nice dps, yes, but if you put that same effort into an escort, it would be higher. Good cruiser vs bad escort, cruiser can have more dps. Good escort vs bad cruiser, escort can tank better. However, good escort can tank some of the hardest things in elite -and- do the highest dps. Escorts should have less hull so they can't be all-purpose. They should have to pick their targets and use hit-and-run tactics instead of "face enemy and shoot until it's dead".
I think escort damage is fine where it is. I think cruisers are just where they should be. Cruisers only feel obsolete because there is no need for their increased beef. If escorts weren't as tanky, cruisers would be useful again. As for sci vessels, the problem with them is mostly the sci abilities being nerfed. Also, enemy power levels/resists to debuffs are so high that it doesn't really matter. Tachyon Beam III + maxed Flow capacitors does like nothing to anything in elite.
I think this whole topic is TRIBBLE. During S6 Armitage did rule STF but with S7 alot of cruisers came out of mothballs, why. Because they are harder to kill. Most of the time STF fleets are a combo cruiser escort. Heck Me and a good friend dueled in a PVP. Me in a eng Fed Star cruiser with mk 11 antiproton and quantum weapons and the pre S7 borg set vs and Eng escort ZEN Prommie with better equipment and we ended in draw. so it's down to weapons, sets, BOFFs, and understanding your ships strangths and weakness.
In trek there first ever warship and escort was the Defiant. It relies on speed and manuverablity to survive. And look at the Galaxy and Sovereign. The gal was build and designed during a time of peace. While it could deliever a punch that was not it's primarly role. But since the galaxy was become more dangerous the Sov showed up and now she is more combat oriented than the Gal, they are mirror images. the sov can do many of the science and exploration as the Gal it isn't gear for that. It's gear for combat and to survive. One of my best ships in game is the Sov. the the Regent THE SOVERREIGN. becuase she can survive and dish out damage.
Comments
Yeah I'd actually argue that a well built SCI and ENG are both quite valuable in ground. There just needs to be more opportunities for them to show it.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
No, because fighters can be stopped by hand-held arms or getting clever.
The nicest approach would be to buff cruisers, but the problems started (started not ended, it went further) when escorts got taken out of the 'glass house' domain and put into the near cruiser level hull, shields, and defences. While still keeping their fire power and manoeuvrability.
Edit: In affect, cruiser or science ship fire power doesn't go nearly as far as it did, and escort fire power now goes a lot further.
I wouldn't. I spend most of my time running away?
Why? Because for all the setup time my engineer or science captain needs, it doesn't take one tactical to queue (lunge/pounce), ambush, roll for a flank, and use a cryowave to do more damage then a fully buffed engineer ,in a bunker, and with 5 ticks from the elite fleet shield going can safely shrug off and still win. (If they even survive)
That's a easy question. For there to be a multi-player game there must be more then one player.
If you make it very easy for one player, and very hard for hard for the other player before gear or skill comes into play? Someone is not going to be having fun. Player not having fun don't play games.
Their current strategy is a death spiral milking the game for all they can get before they finally choke the game to death.
You're focusing too much on raw dps rather than on ship ROLES...and the non-existent need/role for anything that is not raw dps.
Sci ships cant do science. its been nerfed that badly its not even worth bothering with.
Cruisers still are good tanks but escorts now tank just as well if not better with the messed up NPC damage mechanics. Ergo, cruisers 'meat' tank (take hits, heal it, keep aggro) whereas escorts speed tank (very high def to make hits miss and have enough healing ability to counter the few hits that do strike). Sci ships (aside from carriers) can't do either.
then we get to escorts. they can speed tank even better than cruisers meat tank..they output massive amounts of dps and since the game is now dps-centric there is no need for debuffing or crowd control science ships...because the escorts kill them so fast there's no point to them.
that is what is making cruisers as obsolete as sci ships.
If you have an armitage or jemhadar escort carrier try this:
aegis engine, deflector. KHG shield (adapted maco).
captain skill boxes: impulse engine 6+, starship maneuvers 9 and the usual points into warp core and other power bonus boxes. engine is quite nice for this if you have any in it.
any pet.
3 doffs of +10% def to carrier when pets on recall.
Elusive trait
dual atk pattern omega
Here's the magic math:
def bonus at full speed (full engine power): 70%
+ 30% from doffs
+10% from aegis
+20% from atk omega
+10% elusive trait
=140% def.
Icing on the cake:
+25% accuracy reduction upon enemies of KHG shield (procs so much it aint funny).
== You aint getting hit anywhere close to danger levels. you can circle the ISE gate or tac cube nonstop firing at it and your combat spam NPC->you will read: MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS HIT MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS.
The impressive thing is, you put evasive maneuvers in between the atk omega cycles and you permanently run at this 140% (or higher when evasive maneuvers is up).
You cant use this setup on anything BUT an escort. cruisers have lower def ratings and their low turn rate makes turning lower speed and def rating significantly..so it is with sci ship (unless its a very turny one but even then, no dual omega in sci ships).
So that alone throws any tanking out the window. cruisers are obsolete for tanking.
then what? science? all offensive sci abilities were nerfed to high heaven. not even drains are threatening anymore since the great Whine from escorts about how drains were killing them nonstop. Funny how a ship that can run out of range whined his power was sucked out in 10 seconds...its like they couldnt respond to a threat on a ship quite capable of dealing with said threat. meh.
DPS centric is what this game is now. Escorts Online.
The sad thing is, I may get three DOffs in my carrier for the +30% defence. That may end up being one of the more useful things I can do with them todate.
Let's keep our feedback focused and not have two or more discussions about the same thing going on at the same time, thanks!
~Bluegeek
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
my fleet does stfs in 4-5 minutes with cruisers and sci ships. all of us pulling between 8-11k dps. sorry but this whole theory that only escorts do damage is TRIBBLE and people need to stop blaming their ships for their faulty builds.
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
I actually place a good deal of the blame for the cruiser weakness on the trend of DHC and dual cannons becoming the end all be all of damage dealing. People say that you are hurting your setup not running all DHCs up front on escorts. I remember when even escorts would field a torp or dual beam bank or *gasp* even both, because it was worth it to do so, mines were also common. Skills like high yield and beam overload were useful in part due to cool downs, and energy drain from cannons or because the escort was fragile enough to need to put power into shields to live long enough to get healed or run. There was so much variety.
Beams also used to be useful so much so that there were even a few beam escorts around. Beams hit their mark, they were the best thing for picking off fighters, mines, and torps. You could even do it without fire at will by rapidly tabbing through targets. Also sustained dps was also useful because you could wear down targets; cool downs, power levels and debuffs would eventually leave targets vulnerable. Now, I will admit that fire at will was overpowered at one point, but the nerf to beams and beam powers has made them far less useful. Anyone remember when Galaxy Refits were running around with dual beams for when the saucer was separated? When is the last time you saw any good player flying a Galaxy other than the maybe an X (another broken ship, which in light of how nice other zen store ships are needs a boost) in ESTFs? Because I can't think of any for a long, long, long time.
Now cannon powers like scatter volley out shine beam powers. I would like to see beams get an across the board accuracy buff and a mild damage buff. Beams should be the best choice for killing fighters and projectiles. Beam powers need to work, overload should a nice dangerous weapon. Torps could use some looking at too, anything to move away from nothing but DHCs (including nerfing them). Engineers need working powers that either buff dps, buff the team, or debuff the enemy. They need something to do other than tank/heal (cruiser tanking is healing). I say this because science players used to be able to debuff and control and heal/buff. Tac captains can plug into a cruiser and with the current skill point system do a good job healing, heck they can even do some ok healing in their escorts now. All the team (sci/tac/eng team) skills need looking at and should be useful.
Also lower the gains from speed tanking, and trim a little from hp from escort hulls. Also maybe take a look at lower level engineering skills, that ensign slot could use some help. I have some thoughts on science ships, but I will save that for another post.
What I miss most is the variety of ships, weapons, and powers. Sure I can do ok now as an engineer in a cruiser. But don't fool yourself no amount of skill is going to overcome the current overwhelming usefulness of escorts and cannons.
TT is actually a "must have". A good solution is (IMHO) giving ST1 as a native ability of sci ships (only usable on another player) and ET1 as a native ability of cruisers (only usable on a another player)
stated that you can't have a god mode, my weak cruiser/eng captain equiped only with BA and BFaW can deal 4500-5000 dps (enough for a support ship) and my wells/sci captain deal even more dps.
But most player do not spend time/resources to have a good build.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Still seem to be forgetting why bring someone who can do 5k dps when you can do much more in a escort in a game based around DPS is king.
2 - the dmg output and power of effect of all sci skills should be raised
3 - beam weapons - cryptic should adjust dmg vs distance ratio
- beams should have 80% effectivity at 10km, 100% at 5 km
- DHC'S should have 50% effectivity at 10km, 100% at 4 km
because an escort's dps is useless if it can't survive.
Try a pvp match vs a premade's team, without a good healer!
If you'll survive 2 seconds it' a very long time.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
So you're suggesting to fix cruisers you should Buff DHC damage at range? Because that change favours escorts more than cruisers.
This is why you can't have a reasonable discussion on the topic, people don't understand combat to start with, then complain that its broken and they know how to fix it.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
A premade without a healer would still kick TRIBBLE unless your put against some really great pug.
I am in a channel where only skilled players are, so we make regular premades with escorts only. STFs for example get finished in 4-5minutes.
Look at the facts, not at what people or PWE/Cryptic claims.
And btw i agree with re-doing beams and DHCs. DHCs should suffer distance damage done severely while beams should not even feel it.
Also beams should drain less power.
Did you even read what I posted? Its not about DAMAGE of other ships its about escort's damage being so ridiculously high and them having such a ridiculously good ability to speed tank that makes cruisers and sci ships obsolete.
and btw, I can solo a normal stf in my ship too in 4-5 minutes. Did you mean elite stfs? If so, go hop your team into escorts and see just how much faster and easier you do it.
There is no role left in this game other than raw DPS. Only one ship and only one captain type is fully geared for that.
<irony> And the whole point of a discussion is that there is no "one, true way" to fix combat, otherwise the Devs would have already implemented it and we wouldn't be here now, would we? </irony>
For example, taking the recently-mentioned cannon range extension as a possible compensation to moving science damage to exotic categories - I'm all for it, though I'd only extend the 100% damage range out to 3km instead of 4km - knowing that not only escorts get this bonus, so do most KDF cruisers and a handful of other ships (Gal-X, Recluse, Vesta, Chel'Gret to name a few) that can mount cannons.
To me, though, the whole combat system needs to be reexamined, any situation where evasion + rep heals + set bonuses + abilities > damage a cruiser or science vessel can spit out, that is a problem. Let's get the game back to a situation where any ship class can blow up any ship in combat, then let's discuss fine-tuning the individual situations like "does GW do too much damage", or "cannons are OP at 3km"...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I dont like the word Role for my engineer/cruiser or science character
A cruiser is not a Tac/escorts Medic or meatshield the entire idea is Dumb for
a star trek space game
This is a DPS game and science and cruisers need more DPS from abilitys linked to the ships and character classes
If a Tac/Escort needs a medic or meatshield he needs to LTP
I dont need one in my escort
Science ship/Science character ; bonus to DPS
Engineer/Cruiser; Bonus to DPS
Until balence is made
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I tried building a cruiser to tank elite stf's,and sure you can get one rather tough,but your still gonna get taken out by some insane one hit damage.Even with maxed threat control it can be a huge pain to try and pull agro from the escorts,and doesnt pay off at the end of the day anyways.
I'm fine with the whole dps is king atm because healing/tanking is a joke.Won't stop me from trying,but I know it's a losing battle so I don't even worry about it anymore.
This kind of is the problem though. Escorts have the highest damage potential -and- don't need anyone else. If a character is the highest damage, it should be the most fragile. If a character is the hardest to kill, it should probably have less damage. Nobody wants to say "nerf escorts" because 80% of the player base would whine, but it needs to be done. Buffing cruisers isn't the way, because if escorts are left as they are... it doesn't matter if someone else can tank, it isn't needed. If escorts weren't as durable, then cruisers and supports would be useful even if they remain as they are now.
They only Escorts have the extra 10% bonus defense for movement.
Hence why I support buffing Cruisers and Science vessels via beam changes, turn buffs and the like.
If you trap a Escort they die quickly once they can no longer bounce the incomming fir using resist stacking.
If you lower the Escorts damage then all we have is Cruisers which can not die becuase escorts will not be able to get past thier resist stacking and bonus defensive measures.
Slap some fleet elite phasers on that cruiser and it may never die.
If both parties involved can defend themselves equally yet only one can damage the other then the fix does not lie in making one now unable to do damage as well. You must increase the viability of the other to have the ability to do damage under a proper build.
R.I.P
Thats difference between an organized team and a PuG.
R.I.P
Think about it. Cruisers only have ~25-30% more hull than escorts, but escorts have how much more DPS potential? More than 25-30%. I know there are people who say cruisers can have nice dps, yes, but if you put that same effort into an escort, it would be higher. Good cruiser vs bad escort, cruiser can have more dps. Good escort vs bad cruiser, escort can tank better. However, good escort can tank some of the hardest things in elite -and- do the highest dps. Escorts should have less hull so they can't be all-purpose. They should have to pick their targets and use hit-and-run tactics instead of "face enemy and shoot until it's dead".
I think escort damage is fine where it is. I think cruisers are just where they should be. Cruisers only feel obsolete because there is no need for their increased beef. If escorts weren't as tanky, cruisers would be useful again. As for sci vessels, the problem with them is mostly the sci abilities being nerfed. Also, enemy power levels/resists to debuffs are so high that it doesn't really matter. Tachyon Beam III + maxed Flow capacitors does like nothing to anything in elite.
In trek there first ever warship and escort was the Defiant. It relies on speed and manuverablity to survive. And look at the Galaxy and Sovereign. The gal was build and designed during a time of peace. While it could deliever a punch that was not it's primarly role. But since the galaxy was become more dangerous the Sov showed up and now she is more combat oriented than the Gal, they are mirror images. the sov can do many of the science and exploration as the Gal it isn't gear for that. It's gear for combat and to survive. One of my best ships in game is the Sov. the the Regent THE SOVERREIGN. becuase she can survive and dish out damage.