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Why I think DPS meters are wrong
kirkepsilon1
Member Posts: 132 Arc User
Like the title says I think they are wrong for the simple reason I personally don't care about how much dps am doing at least not to the extent I want to record it anyway, my point is I don't like the idea that other people are gathering information about me ingame without my knowledge or permission.
I mean I know some people will say that they are a useful tool yeah if your sort of person who wants to take it that seriously and whine about other peoples stats.
However think of it like this you wouldn't allow someone to record information about your activities outside of the game on your computer would you?
One last thing it would not be that hard to hack your computer or character through a dps meter all it would take is additional code writing and piggy backing onto the data packets being sent that contain the information that your acquiring about other players of course this would involve most likely the other person doing the same but having it setup so that they know who is actually using one. Now for that reason alone someone from Cryptic should do something about this to ensure that this sort of data gathering can be blocked completely.
Also it invites bullying and unwarranted opinions in relation to your ship or character setup in general. I am very curious as to whether or not am I the only one who thinks this?
I mean I know some people will say that they are a useful tool yeah if your sort of person who wants to take it that seriously and whine about other peoples stats.
However think of it like this you wouldn't allow someone to record information about your activities outside of the game on your computer would you?
One last thing it would not be that hard to hack your computer or character through a dps meter all it would take is additional code writing and piggy backing onto the data packets being sent that contain the information that your acquiring about other players of course this would involve most likely the other person doing the same but having it setup so that they know who is actually using one. Now for that reason alone someone from Cryptic should do something about this to ensure that this sort of data gathering can be blocked completely.
Also it invites bullying and unwarranted opinions in relation to your ship or character setup in general. I am very curious as to whether or not am I the only one who thinks this?
Post edited by kirkepsilon1 on
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As for the privacy issue... I don't see it as a problem. It's not like players are gathering info on your credit card history, they're simply observing and comparing damage ratios. If that information was kept private, there would be no way to quantify the relative effectiveness of your build.
What you do when grouped with me has a direct impact on those you are grouped with.
This includes, but is not limited to, your performance, effectiveness, and behavior during the group activity. If that bothers you avoid group based things.
Finally their is no method that can be used to 'hack' via a DPS meter beyond if a script is hidden in the code that infects the user of the meter computer. It is a log parser nothing more nothing less.
The damage you're doing is being done in public, it's broadcast to everyone around you through the game's combat log. Do you need permission to observe what someone is doing in a public place and write it down? If I see you walking through a public park, it's not against any sort of law to note in a journal "saw kirkepsilon1 walking through the park today, he was feeding the squirrels."
Unless a trojan/virus was actually written into the program doing the parsing of the combat log, no, what you're suggesting is impossible. The data being parsed is sent directly from the game server to each player, recorded in the combat log by the game, and then a parser looks through the combat log file to calculate the damage being done by each player and output it in an easy to read format. There is no point at which one player could send malicious data packets to another player.
It's a team game in which damage is very important to achieve objectives. No one can directly force you to play a certain way, but playing however you want with no regards for the needs of the team while grouping with other players opens you up to criticism.
The majority of players are using these tools to optimize their setup and find out what items and abilities actually work.
The game is a multiplayer game, so if playing with random people that might hurt your feeling is difficult for you, either only play with people you know or only do single player content.
So you are not likely to get hassled during an activity.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
It's also not something that can be blocked without removing the combat text entirely and leaving people blind to how much damage they're doing and how much is being done to them. These aren't programs accessing STO's memory space or UI modifications, they're after-action analysis done on the combat text.
Your hacking fears are incredibly off base. They don't just show a lack of understanding of how DPS meters work, but a fundamental lack of understanding of how computers work.
They can't collect non combat data on other players. Those things don't generate combat log events. They can't collect data on out-of-game activities of other players, because the STO client does not hook or monitor other processes (this is easily testable, though most methods to do so technically violate the terms of service as it would involve an outside application monitoring STO's process and memory area in real time).
They also can't alter the information in real time, the combat log and for that matter even the graphical display are after the fact reports of things that already happened on the server - they may only be a few hundredths of a second behind, but they've still already happened and it's to late to change them. Even if that wasn't true, STO has no way to allow DPS meters to even analyze data in real time, they have to be done after the fact - no matter how fast ACT is, the lines in the log are already two degrees of separation away from the events the events that generated them, modifying them will only invalidate the report, not change the past.
That last bit is also why there's not much bullying over meters like some games see - even if you're really on the fly it takes several seconds to get the report at the end of a battle and by the time you notice the escort who did less than 5% of the group's damage, everyone else has already left the match and queued for something else.
First off, I parse in close to real time while playing STF's with the plugin for ACT. Secondly being able to both see my own numbers and compare those numbers to those of people around me has been a major help in tweaking my build rather then either using a cookie cutter build or just throwing on those 'pretty' beams and hoping it is working.
Being able to parse in real time has even helped my friends and I complete some optionals in PUG STF's that we might not have gotten if we hadn't noticed a lack of dps from one player or another. Not to say for a second they had a bad build, but seeing that they might be doing the majority of their damage through kinetic so it would be better to take them off probe tackling and put them on attacking static borg targets for example.
I don't like it either, but what can we do?
I agree DPS meters do NOT tell the full story. Cause I know that if I used abilities that drain the enemies power or disable subsystems or debuff them? That doesn't come up usually on the dps meter.
What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
edited to add
If you were on a sports team, even one for fun, wouldn't you like to know how much you contributed to the team? Running a DPS meter is no different than keeping track of how many points are scored in a soccer game, baseball game, or other sport.
When I run my meter, I offer to tell ppl their DPS at the end of the event, not to beat them with, but to offer help on their setup. Someone doing only 1500 DPS is clearly doing something wrong - no matter what class/ship they are flying.
Alright, let's give you an analogy. Let's say you're playing a sport w/ 4 teammates. If one of your teammates decides to record various statistics on each player's performance, is that an invasion of privacy? The fact that he's writing it down doesn't change the fact that your performance is clear to everyone who is watching.
Also, you seriously need to learn how a damage parser works. The program itself uses something the game already sends out regardless of there being a parser. Secondly, if you think those logs can be "piggybacked" and sent back to one of the other players on your team, you seriously need to take a class in internet security. There are ways to send malicious code through servers to another player IF(BIG IF) there is a vulnerability already present. If there were such a thing, you'd have more than just STF's to worry about at that point.
So, either learn to tolerate other people's play styles or just don't play w/ others.
Now try to get out from the 14th century and ask how something works before you accuse "omg is stealing my comp passwords and knows which TRIBBLE sites I visit" :rolleyes:
As a quick tutorial on how "DPS meters" work:
First, all damage that is dealt in an instance within a certain range (~25-30 km, I think) is sent to you in the built-in "Combat" chat channels.
Second, it's possible to log and save those by using the "/combatlog 1" command. Using that command will save all messages you receive from Combat channels to a text file on your computer, from when you send the command until you cancel it by either logging off or sending the "/combatlog 0" command.
Third, it's possible to write a program that reads the log and processes it into a more accessible format. This is what many people refer to as a "DPS meter" although the program can be used for more than that. Advanced Combat Tracker (originally written for EverQuest 2, easily modified via simple scripts to work for other games) is one such program.
At no point does ACT or a similar program do anything but observe and parse the data given it. It reads the logs, but does not write on them, and even if it did, the log would then simply become a falsified record at most.
Why is this a reply to me?
Anyways, yeah, in essence, these programs just crunch through files that are already being logged. It does not have an active connection.
The better ones they do. ACT is pretty low on the scale as these things go, and STO is lacking several key combat log events that would make it easier, but better parsers track buff and debuff uptime, clipping (i.e. overriding your own or somebody else's in a way that wastes part of the duration), and even idle cooldown time (the delay between cooldowns becoming ready and being used), and other related events.
ACT's STO plugin does track more than damage, just not as much as, say, WWS. Because despite their more casual use as pride measurements, these tools are meant for group/raid level diagnosis.
you do not need real time parsing to see if someone is not dealing enough dmg, its pretty easy just to eyeball them
he is not doing nothing wrong. he is just literally flying, and doing nothing else, lol. tho I long gave up on trying to save the world, from sub 2k dps players, as they are swarming allover the place (even in elite stf channels, where I got once the reply: "everyone else does the same (DPS), why should I care what you say")
to OP: well, everything is said before. noone is going to hack your computer through parsers, it only takes what the game already offers
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
1) The combat log only happens when there are combat things happening. So only when shots are fired. IF you do not enter combat, there is nothing to record.
2) The combat log only records active combat data, such as damage per volly, healing and crits. So there is nothing incriminating or personal within the log.
3) Other people can only log your combat activity if you are in the same instance and within a certain range of your ship (Not tested, but it is something along the lines of 20 km). Even if you went into an STF with someone tracking combat logs, the data wont be accurate unless they were within 15 KM of you at ALL times.
4) If you are not online, there is no log that exist unless you download it to your computer. The combat log is temporary on your client. So there is nothing Sever-side to read up on (besides Dev-side matrices and data, none of which is tagged on a player base.)
5) Even IF you have downloaded your combat log locally, it is stored separate from your client, and thus, no one can access those logs without first accessing your computer. Hacking through the sever and into your client (Which can't happen), will lead to possible messing up how things look on your screen when you play. Nothing more. They cannot access any of your computer's systems.
6) Even IF they TRIBBLE your computer, got into your systems and can read your log... someone who wen through that much work will not be looking for a competitive edge in an MMO. They would be looking for your credit card information.
So, your fear is unbais. I have a combat parser, I use it in PVP and PVE content. I DO have logs of other people whom i have never meet before. I have laughed at the results sometimes. What do I do? I read the information pertaining to me, and deleted the log. I have no use of partial incomplete data from a strangers combat. Even if I did, there is nothing incriminating about a combat log.
Well the standard ACT with STO plugin is in fact very slow but thats judt because of bad implementation. My own parser never gets more than 100 lines behind aka some seconds at most;)
This too. In Khitomer Accord Space, the person that holds the opposite site gate from probes often has a lower DPS, by virtue of the fact they often wait between spawn of probes to fire. However, they offer an invaluable service to the match by saving the optional and possible the game. They can you Viral Matrix, Tractor Beam, Chroniton weapon procs, all of which do not show up on the combat tracker.
I'm mainly a debuffer build in PVP. 80% of the things I do dont even show up in the combat log. Yet I am still the trolliest and the most helpful ship in my fleet. Sensor scramble does not show up on my sensor logs at all, yet, it still ruins the other teams day.
You are 100% right about a dps tracker not telling the whole story, heck even a fire at will beam boat that does low damage, but never stops doing it would look awesome in a dps meter while being a nearly worthless addition to a team.
The problem with the OP is that it falls into a mindset the world seems to be getting locked into. You are blaming the tools instead of the people that use them poorly. A DPS tracker won't cause a jerk to be a jerk, he would be what he is anyway.
DPS trackers fill a niche quite nicely, and they cause no harm to anyone. If someone yells at you and calls you a loser that isn't pulling their weight; the DPS tracker didn't make them do it.
I don't see what else needs to be said.
If they're the only one on a target, or it's just you and them, yes. Or if they're doing certain things like rainbow beams on an escort it's a pretty easy guess, but even that, it's possible to manage a rainbow boat at a less than 10% loss - it's still a loss, but a smaller loss than a bad build or even just bad tactics. But a lot of situations it's only possible to tell that the group isn't doing as well as it should, figuring out who's doing bad or if several people are just mediocre takes some better data.
Someone please get this man his alluminum foil hat to keep the bad people from scanning his brain. Wow I have never seen someone so parinoid over something so simple as raw data in the form of weapons damage in a game. If someone goes hey your DPS sucks, you tell them your build is for healing or support or what ever not damage. At the same time you better be doing accually healing or support or what ever and not a bump on a log.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~syberghost
this game is private domain
your rights under the bill of right do not apply
unless cryptic says that combat logging is not allowed and removes the feature from the game, people will continue to combatlog.
because the combatlog is restricted by range, it's only a useful tool to gauge personal dps in anything but ise.
all that being said, if you can't kill a pair of probes on your own in under 30 seconds you are not ready for kase. you don't need a parser to gauge this performance, and this performance can be achieved in science and cruisers using beams without any rep gear.
second if you don't like people telling you about your build then go and play a single player game or run stfs only with your close friends! this is a team based game and your build, dps and your gameplay is a concern for your team. they don't take this game too seriously, they just want to play the game corectly and not wasting their time.
3nd, as people above me said, the ACT uses public information so is not an invasion of your privacy.
ps: personaly i think this thread is for trolling 'cuz i can't belive some people ar so ignorant. (it's just an opinion and not an insult)
I never actually talk about other people's DPS, but when they find out I'm logging STFs they end up asking me for their numbers anyway. I only ever log to test out builds, but the folks I run with want to know so they can improve.
yeah. it is kind of like a post, from someone, who is constantly told, he is bad. and if someone is dealing that low dmg, than there has to be something to it (I rarely tell anyone if they had very low dps, even below 1k, but sometimes I cant stop myself
and yeah, most ppl if they learn there was a parsing going on, they wanna know their numbers (I parse all the time, cause I wanted to establish a basis back in the day, and it just became a routine, which lead me to loads of useful info on parsers, others might not know)
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
I think I saw a Troll.