This is a video game not a tv show. They already have gear in the game that is different vs. human players then against comps. Look at Phaser they stun human players for half the time compared to comps.
The phasers work the same against NPCs and Human players. Human players just tend to be higher level and have better mitigation than enemies, such as body armor, shields, and passives.
PvP unlocks and items gained through a PvP System should only be usable in PvP scenarios. A lot of MMOs have PvE restricted equipment and PvP restricted equipment.
If the gear unlocked via the PvP rep system is usable for PvE I'm sure we'll see another rise in AFKers or Suiciders who are only in the PvP match for the free rep to bvuy new shiny stuff to "Lol I'm Kirk/ Picard" borg with.
That makes about as much sense as Romulan Reputation rewards only being useful for Romulan missions. The AFK problem needs to be solved period regardless of any new reputation system.
You are basically saying, "we shouldn't lower the speed limit to improve safety on this road because it will lead to more people speeding," when you should be saying, "let's stop the speeders by enforcing the law or installing speed mitigation devices."
I certainly isn't going to make people like PvP any more than allowing people to buy their STF gear makes people like STF's but at least it makes them try it if they really want the gear. But to make the gear less effective against PvE ensures they never attempt to confront an opponent that WILL kill them if they're not on the top of their game.
True it might make some people give PvP a try but if they make it hard to get the gear then some people will just abandon it all together and never ever go back. If they make a PvP reputation system it should not be hard to advance (wining) in the reputation system. The winners should get more PvP credits wile the losers get less but still reasonable amount. I still think either way making PvP reputation gear being good in all situations is a bad idea and will result in a lot exploitation.
The phasers work the same against NPCs and Human players. Human players just tend to be higher level and have better mitigation than enemies, such as body armor, shields, and passives.
The Stun from Phasers is different vs. Humans then comps at least that is what is says also weapon malfunctions from Polaron is also different. Is the info from the weapons wrong?
1) I'm not the one suggesting that markedly superior gear be segregated in one specific type of reputation/content area solely because I like that content area, or dislike other areas.
So by that logic since I'm a KDF PvP'er who doesn't participate in the rep systems I deserve to miss out ?
The BEST gear is already part of a system that tho optional, is mandatory if you want the gear. Why should the PvP rep system treat players any different that the current system ?
Say what ?
Human opponents are the hardest enemies to defeat in the game. There's nothing in the PvE game that requires gear that can't be crafted or dropped from FE missions. Just getting slaughtered in a PvP match shouldn't be considered sufficient enough to earn access to the best gear in the game (I'm assuming will be better than anything currently available in-game). If you're not going to play PvP then why would you want gear that's ineffective against PvE opponents and require you to refit/change ships if you decide to play a PvE battle ? And if you've earned gear suitable to battle the hardest enemies in the game why would you accept them being less than optimal against inferior enemies compared to inferior gear ?
Everyone knows how power creep intices players to go after more powerful gear even tho they don't really need it. To keep PvP gear effective against only other live players ensures PvP never becomes popular to the general player, and never gets any real attention from the devs because it's so exclusive.
So please, explain to me how criticizing one person for wanting his toys to be made the shiniest and then turning around and demanding the exact same thing isn't utterly hypocritical?
1) I'm not the one suggesting that markedly superior gear be segregated in one specific type of reputation/content area solely because I like that content area
Yes, you did- post # 2
So please, explain to me how criticizing one person for wanting his toys to be made the shiniest and then turning around and demanding the exact same thing isn't utterly hypocritical?
As for criticizing one person, I think your mistaken. You should really re-read the thread and consider that I was carrying on 3 different conversations with 3 different posters.
daramuss wants no PvP rep system at all, you and marshalericdavid want to keep the gear segregated and PvP gear less effective against AI.
Not once, anywhere in this thread did I criticize anyone for their view, tho different than my own. Tho I did say I wanted PvP gear to be 'top tier' since it IS against opponents that actually fight back I can now see where you think I'm being hypocritical.
So please, explain to me how criticizing one person for wanting his toys to be made the shiniest and then turning around and demanding the exact same thing isn't utterly hypocritical?
You amuse me.
If a PvP reputation system comes in to being whilst PvP is still broken there there will be new gear that comes out that the non-PvPers will either:
a) Feel forced to participate in a genre that they dislike. Players who are forced to do things they don't like tend to lose interest in a game.
b) Go without, all the whilst feeling resentful that the gear is not available via PvE which is the VAST majority of this game. (If PvP was the majority I'm sure they'd have more than 8 maps available. Care to argue that point?)
Options a) and b) are not good for the longevity of the game. Then again if you cared for the longevity of the game you might be able to see that.
The only way a reputation system can be implemented without situations a) or b) eventuating is for that gear to only be usable in PvP. That is the fairest scenario of all.
If a PvP reputation system comes in to being whilst PvP is still broken there there will be new gear that comes out that the non-PvPers will either:
a) Feel forced to participate in a genre that they dislike. Players who are forced to do things they don't like tend to lose interest in a game.
b) Go without, all the whilst feeling resentful that the gear is not available via PvE which is the VAST majority of this game. (If PvP was the majority I'm sure they'd have more than 8 maps available. Care to argue that point?)
Options a) and b) are not good for the longevity of the game. Then again if you cared for the longevity of the game you might be able to see that.
The only way a reputation system can be implemented without situations a) or b) eventuating is for that gear to only be usable in PvP. That is the fairest scenario of all.
If you feel forced to something and have problem with it - do not do it - problem solved.
I PvP mostly, and I was also forced to grind STFs and other repeatable TRIBBLE for rep. Now, I would rather be obliterated 100x in PvP by the most horrible cheese there is, instead of doing Cure space with 4 total noobs who are unable to distribute shields and their dmg is comparable to Npc miranda.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
The only way a reputation system can be implemented without situations a) or b) eventuating is for that gear to only be usable in PvP. That is the fairest scenario of all.
If you do it that way then the shiney fleet ship (which I can only have one of) will have to be stripped of it's PvP specific weapons and re-equipped when I feel like participating in a FM event or grinding my daily dilithium, then stripped/equipped again when I want to go back to arena play. How about those AI fleet reinforcements the other PvP'ers are popping, my PvP weapons are gimped against them now.
PVP is the only valid form of gameplay to understand powers and abilities of all ships and abilities to a degree that is understandable to even the lowest common denominator of smart people who play this game and claim they are gods in other games like Call Of Duty. Any sort of content towards this feature of gameplay is Paramount to the involvement of this game and like the other reputation systems and fleet base/embassy systems continues to remain optional to a great many who whine and complain about wanting the best gear now. Yes it is true the KDF need a large amount of Unique PVE story missions but that is only for the fact that this game was promised 'Full' PVE content from its inception in 2010. thus making more than 9 unique missions while the federation has 50+. The logic of leaving PVP the way it is will drive more players away than anything because for so long we have had to deal with some broken abilites here and there, Nerfing of other sorts of craft because of Geko's favoritism, Lockbox ships being the best of the best and now when the opportunity arises for PVPers to have something uniqued we are shunned and insulted like a atheist at a christian concert. I support any installments to PVP to keep it a valid part of the game and maybe bring back members who have been brokenhearted of the long amount of work not taken towards PVP. a good percent of those people are friends of mine.
If you do it that way then the shiney fleet ship (which I can only have one of) will have to be stripped of it's PvP specific weapons and re-equipped when I feel like participating in a FM event or grinding my daily dilithium, then stripped/equipped again when I want to go back to arena play. How about those AI fleet reinforcements the other PvP'ers are popping, my PvP weapons are gimped against them now.
Doesn't sound very fair to me.
You're right, that doesn't sound fair. It would be fair if you could have saved setups. I think that saved setups would be awesome regardless of whether or not there's a PvP reputation.
High end PvP Rep system rewards scewed heavily on winning or Scoreboard chasing is a bad idea. In the end the better players/teams will have even more of an advantage over others.
I agree the winning team should have a faster gain on PvP Rep, but it shouldn't be so much so the losing side ends up being many weeks to months behind before things even out. There's already enough power creep in this game that time gates new players. New items w/new balanced capabilities would be fine, but nothing like we've been seeing w/the Passive boosts in the other Rep system and Fleet Shield procing resists.
Tbh, I'd rather they focus on things like Open Sector PvP, Territory Control PvP, Resource competition, etc. Then build up player and Cryptic seasonal Tourney's w/unique "Rep" prizes that's the equivalant of a Unique Trophey and Title.
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Outside of NWS, is there any PvE content that requires anything more than you'd get from just leveling a toon? You can hit up ESTFs in that mix of green/blue/purps at Mk X/XI that you get from just leveling and complete the Optionals.
You may want better gear to do it in 5 minutes instead of taking 10 minutes, but it's not needed to complete it.
So if there were gear added through a PvP rep system...it's not anything you'd need any more than you actually need any STF gear to do ESTFs. It's all optional. Fleet Ships, Lockbox Ships, Z-Store Ships, Rep Gear, etc, etc, etc... it's all optional for PvE. It's like buying that jacket from the Lobi store... you might want it, but you don't need it.
STO doesn't have the typical gear check progression with PvE content. You're not grinding Dungeon #1 so you can grind Dungeon #2 so you can grind Dungeon #3 so you can grind Raid #1 so you can grind Raid #2 so you can grind Raid #3 just in time to have the gear ready for Dungeon #4...etc, etc, etc.
In that latest STOked interview, Stahl talked about it going that way in discussing keeping ships at T5 but adding higher levels of gear. You may head into an area and find that you need more than you've got. The gear check progression...tada! But it just doesn't exist in that manner currently. You hit 50, if you've got a semi decent build and know what needs to be done - you can hit up any ESTF without the need of any STF gear.
As an aside, it's kind of mind boggling - thinking about it with regard to the Omega Rep. You have to hit level 50 to do it...so you can get level 40 (Mk X), level 45 (Mk XI), and eventually what some might consider Level 50 (Mk XII) gear. That should tell you something right there about the gear that you need to run ESTFs...that it really doesn't matter.
So what if they add gear to a PvP Rep? After all, in the end - who's really using all that gear anyway? It's the folks that PvP. They're grinding away PvE for gear to use in PvP. One can easily say they need it more than the PvE person...who may just want it as a vanity thing, completionist thing, because they want to grind faster, or because it soothes their egos.
None of those are valid reasons for there not to be a PvP Rep system much less one that provides any gear.
And when the game does get into that gear check progression mentality...there will be plenty of ways to get any gear needed. In fact, it will likely end up being the same situation we have now - where folks are massively overgeared for PvE and the gear is really only needed for PvP...
The stuff you need for other reputations is obtained by playing PvE. Multiple ways of PvE, mind you. For example, if you don't want to the Romulan missions for Romulan marks you can go Epohh hunting and trade them in. It's quite obvious that there will be only one way to get PvP marks.
*sigh* I don't know why I'm bothering. The high lords of PvP will start crying and PvP reputation will happen, just like their whining resulted in tricobalt nerfs.
If you want the truth... instead of jumping to conclusions.
The high lords of PvP DON'T What PvP rep. Ok perhaps some of them do... but not all PvPers see the value in it.
I would rather they never even consider doing PvP rep.
Here's the kicker... I think such systems will further Deter folks like you that dabble in PvP from doing it for the right reasons. People that do that often end up becoming good pvp players... and many times Complete PvP converts.
I don't want to see a ton of AFK players in PvP... I don't want to see people running around with no shields on to get it over with... or just plain not trying.
I also don't want a game where every PvP player has there rep maxed... and new players stand ZERO chance of doing anything in pvp untill they get there rep done. Other game developers have done stuff like that and it has killed completely there PvP. Frankly if you need to compete in 200 matches, with people that are basicly kicking your backside around based soley on gear... you won't bother.
If PvP rep happens I would take it as a sign of Cryptic honestly and truly writing PvP off for good.
I find it amusing and somewhat contradictory that you insist that you dislike and don't want to be forced into PvP, yet voluntarily enter into the most refined form of it here in the meta game, the dreaded Forum PvP.
You've been sent to the respawn a number of times, by the way.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
High end PvP Rep system rewards scewed heavily on winning or Scoreboard chasing is a bad idea. In the end the better players/teams will have even more of an advantage over others.
I agree the winning team should have a faster gain on PvP Rep, but it shouldn't be so much so the losing side ends up being many weeks to months behind before things even out. There's already enough power creep in this game that time gates new players. New items w/new balanced capabilities would be fine, but nothing like we've been seeing w/the Passive boosts in the other Rep system and Fleet Shield procing resists.
Tbh, I'd rather they focus on things like Open Sector PvP, Territory Control PvP, Resource competition, etc. Then build up player and Cryptic seasonal Tourney's w/unique "Rep" prizes that's the equivalant of a Unique Trophey and Title.
One could say the game's already overdue for some sort of PvP Rating System. Not a Ranking System - but a Rating System.
You take the fresh 50 in his RA ship with a hodgepodge of gear.
You take the other 50 in his Fleet ship, both T5, mix of Mk XII and Elite Fleet gear, Universal Consoles, etc, etc, etc.
Those guys really shouldn't be fighting each other. Sure, life sucks and that stuff happens - but it's a game. It's entertainment. It's not life. People play games to get away from that stuff.
With the talk about things sitting at T5 ships but the gear getting better as time goes along... in a few years that fresh 50 (maybe a fresh 60) in his RA ship could be fighting folks in their massively retrofitted Fleet Ships with Mk TRIBBLE gear. They're both sporting T5 ships though... /cough
If gear, rep levels, etc, etc, etc had a point level - then the cumulative value of those points could give a Rating...as far as queues go. In Ker'rat and other such areas, yeah... hopefully the fresh 50's a KDF looking to complete his Die25, eh?
The gear gap is only going to grow and grow as time goes on...and personally, I think such a Rating system is already overdue. With such a system in place, one could easily envision multiple levels of PvP Rep Ranking based on the divides from that PvP Rating.
It's just kind of funny - in thinking about my #1 toon and my #6 toon. The #1 guy is sporting that mix of VR Mk XI/XII gear, has various set bonuses, and is T5 in both New Rom/Omega. The #6 guy is sporting that mix of...Green Mk X through Blue Mk XI gear, no sets, and isn't even T1 in either New Rom/Omega. Both are in T5 ships though, eh? That gear discrepancy is only going to get worse as time goes on...
If a PvP reputation system comes in to being whilst PvP is still broken there there will be new gear that comes out that the non-PvPers will either:
a) Feel forced to participate in a genre that they dislike. Players who are forced to do things they don't like tend to lose interest in a game.
b) Go without, all the whilst feeling resentful that the gear is not available via PvE which is the VAST majority of this game. (If PvP was the majority I'm sure they'd have more than 8 maps available. Care to argue that point?)
Options a) and b) are not good for the longevity of the game. Then again if you cared for the longevity of the game you might be able to see that.
The only way a reputation system can be implemented without situations a) or b) eventuating is for that gear to only be usable in PvP. That is the fairest scenario of all.
OH geez H
I got to say I hate the idea of PvP rep.... However
After reading this one I REALLY REALLY hope we get rep.
So you can understand how we all feel about having to go and chase STUPID Romulan Rats... and blow up the 1000th terribly written Borg AI.... At least in the STFS I can laugh at all the PVE players that can't manage to kill borg, or the ones that manage to somehow die in those things. The Romulan stuff... most PvPers want to slit there wrists every time they find themselves chasing digital rats around.
Yep now I want rep... and perhaps I'll start complaining really loudly till we get it. lol
I don't want to see a ton of AFK players in PvP... I don't want to see people running around with no shields on to get it over with... or just plain not trying.
There were AFKers for Dil.
There are AFKers for Marks.
There's little doubt there would be AFKers for Rep.
It's mind boggling that in the post talking AFKers in PvP and something being done - that thing being done was to give the AFKers more reason to AFK and to introduce more AFKers into PvP.
It doesn't bode well for PvP - given the direction Cryptic's already taken...meh.
I also don't want a game where every PvP player has there rep maxed... and new players stand ZERO chance of doing anything in pvp untill they get there rep done. Other game developers have done stuff like that and it has killed completely there PvP. Frankly if you need to compete in 200 matches, with people that are basicly kicking your backside around based soley on gear... you won't bother.
Which basically leads back to the first thing I quoted from you... and this, in my experience, has led to folks even forming Efficient Losing Teams - trying to lose as quickly as possible. It drove me crazy in other games. I mean, I wanted to pick one of them up to beat the TRIBBLE out of the others with...it just ticked me off that much.
It's one of those things where there is tons of information available for Cryptic not to repeat the same mistakes that other developers have made... unfortunately, in most cases that information was already there for many of the developers out there before they repeated the same mistakes anyway... so again, it doesn't bode well...
I find it amusing and somewhat contradictory that you insist that you dislike and don't want to be forced into PvP, yet voluntarily enter into the most refined form of it here in the meta game, the dreaded Forum PvP.
You've been sent to the respawn a number of times, by the way.
Where was I quoted saying leeeroooy? I don't remember saying that...
I'm happy to get sent to respawn if I lose a point. I'd rather lose a point or two than never have said what's on my mind.
the one good thing about the pvp rep is all the pve'er tears that will be shed, when if they want the passives and gear and whatever they will have to pvp. nothing is more amusing then pve'er HATE of pvp
I'm sorry, but to me this seems broken. For players to target non-escorts right from the start shows that it's recognised that they're weak. For me to gravitate to killing non-escorts in the span of a few kills means that I recognised that they were weak.
I kill weak escorts with my escorts. In fact, I go after weak players. I go after science and escorts first in most engagements. The former, because I don't want them using debuffs and other drain/disable abilities. The latter, because I don't want them killing me or my team mates first.
If I find that the escorts and science ships are harder to kill than cruisers, I will go after the cruisers.
Where was I quoted saying leeeroooy? I don't remember saying that...
I'm happy to get sent to respawn if I lose a point. I'd rather lose a point or two than never have said what's on my mind.
His last name is Jenkins. He is you.
The guys standing around meticulously planning the raid are the people in this community. They endlessly debate the merits of abilities, levels of attainable resists, spike v. pressure damage, crit coding and how the server handles it, new player education, DoT magnitude and proc rate interactions with passive healing, premades v. pug-mades v. pugging, and hundreds of other minute nerdy balance issues.
You conducted an experiment to confirm your own bias which included a whopping 6 matches (you don't even know what you don't know at this point). Then you screamed your own personal battlecry consisting of your own name, preconceptions, and wild speculation about a rumored system and proceeded to ignore the advice of those who have been over this ground repeatedly.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Weren't a lot of you saying fleet gear shouldn't be so good because not everybody can get to a high tier fleet , blah , blah, blah? Rethorical question, don't want an answer.
Besides, all you guys will be here complaining about them being OP or UP anyways.
PvP rep system? My shield-less Miranda will be ready for action!
Would it be asking too much to only allow one set of Rep-system passives to be selected as Active at a time?
Say Omega... or Romulan... or PvP... or Jem'Hadar... or Dr. Who... whichever you want, but one at a time instead of everything all together at once? You'd still need to be buy Respec tokens to re-arrange your selections within completed trees, but a system would have several upsides for Cryptic as well as its players.
1. Limits power creep in PvE and PvP in a sensible, coherent fashion, allowing content to remain viably challenging without putting it out of reach of players just starting out.
2. Allows Cryptic to watch and see which Rep trees are most used as active, allowing easier metric-gathering for tuning (if nobody is using the PvP Rep systems, there's a good chance there's something wrong with it).
3. Reduces barriers for players looking to get into endgame PvE and PvP content.
There's other reasons, but I've gotta run. It'd be win-win for everyone if Cryptic would go this route with the rep system.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
The guys standing around meticulously planning the raid are the people in this community. They endlessly debate the merits of abilities, levels of attainable resists, spike v. pressure damage, crit coding and how the server handles it, new player education, DoT magnitude and proc rate interactions with passive healing, premades v. pug-mades v. pugging, and hundreds of other minute nerdy balance issues.
You conducted an experiment to confirm your own bias which included a whopping 6 matches (you don't even know what you don't know at this point). Then you screamed your own personal battlecry consisting of your own name, preconceptions, and wild speculation about a rumored system and proceeded to ignore the advice of those who have been over this ground repeatedly.
I think you have the wrong person. None of my three names are Jenkins, nor do any of my names start with a J.
In the spirit of a fair go I have been playing PvP all this afternoon. There are trends which are becoming apparent. (These are based on observation, not assumption.)
* PvP is ruled by escorts. Yes, there are one or two non-escorts who I've seen do well. One or two over 6 hours.
* Science powers annoy. That's as bad as it's been for me. They don't really hamper you that much.
* Cruisers just don't hit hard enough. Any dent they make in an escort's shield is rendered useless by a quick turn of their ship. That's in the 5 second window where their alternating Tac Team isn't up.
* Escorts seem to tank and tank and tank. I've seen two ships where I couldn't make a dent in their shields after close to a minute of repeated fire and debuffing. Both were escorts. In both matches I was in the top 4 damage dealers. (I parsed the matches.)
These fly in the face of reason and fly in the face of Trek. Call me old fashioned, but I like my Trek games to be a little more Trek. Science should be more than an annoyance. You should see science and be wary. Cruisers should be harder to kill. Escorts should NOT be able to tank.
These imbalances and striving for elitism renders fan favourites like the Galaxy or the Intrepid mostly useless. They're all JHAS, Mobius, Patrol Escorts, Vestas, Odysseys and Andorian ships.
I somewhat dislike the idea of PvP reputation (increasing the skill gap), but the truth is that if they don't add PvP rep they'll add some other kind of PvE rep that will be a horrible grind.
Maybe some good could come out of it if, for example, Feds had separate FvF and FvK reps (would encourage more FvK) and Klingons had separate KvK and FvK resp (would encourage more KvK)
Maybe some good could come out of it if, for example, Feds had separate FvF and FvK reps (would encourage more FvK) and Klingons had separate KvK and FvK resp (would encourage more KvK)
Had wondered if that would be the case, mind you - that it would just be FvK/KvF and not FvF/KvK. Wasn't there some mention somewhere about Battlefront/Warfront/whatever Rep? Short of them meaning they were going to add various NPC missions along the Neutral Zone - kind of took that to mean PvP Rep.
Comments
The phasers work the same against NPCs and Human players. Human players just tend to be higher level and have better mitigation than enemies, such as body armor, shields, and passives.
That makes about as much sense as Romulan Reputation rewards only being useful for Romulan missions. The AFK problem needs to be solved period regardless of any new reputation system.
You are basically saying, "we shouldn't lower the speed limit to improve safety on this road because it will lead to more people speeding," when you should be saying, "let's stop the speeders by enforcing the law or installing speed mitigation devices."
True it might make some people give PvP a try but if they make it hard to get the gear then some people will just abandon it all together and never ever go back. If they make a PvP reputation system it should not be hard to advance (wining) in the reputation system. The winners should get more PvP credits wile the losers get less but still reasonable amount. I still think either way making PvP reputation gear being good in all situations is a bad idea and will result in a lot exploitation.
LOL, nice try. Refer to post #2:
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
The Stun from Phasers is different vs. Humans then comps at least that is what is says also weapon malfunctions from Polaron is also different. Is the info from the weapons wrong?
1) I'm not the one suggesting that markedly superior gear be segregated in one specific type of reputation/content area solely because I like that content area, or dislike other areas.
2) I'm not the one who said this:
Or this...
Or this...
So please, explain to me how criticizing one person for wanting his toys to be made the shiniest and then turning around and demanding the exact same thing isn't utterly hypocritical?
daramuss wants no PvP rep system at all, you and marshalericdavid want to keep the gear segregated and PvP gear less effective against AI.
Not once, anywhere in this thread did I criticize anyone for their view, tho different than my own. Tho I did say I wanted PvP gear to be 'top tier' since it IS against opponents that actually fight back I can now see where you think I'm being hypocritical.
So be it.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
You amuse me.
If a PvP reputation system comes in to being whilst PvP is still broken there there will be new gear that comes out that the non-PvPers will either:
a) Feel forced to participate in a genre that they dislike. Players who are forced to do things they don't like tend to lose interest in a game.
b) Go without, all the whilst feeling resentful that the gear is not available via PvE which is the VAST majority of this game. (If PvP was the majority I'm sure they'd have more than 8 maps available. Care to argue that point?)
Options a) and b) are not good for the longevity of the game. Then again if you cared for the longevity of the game you might be able to see that.
The only way a reputation system can be implemented without situations a) or b) eventuating is for that gear to only be usable in PvP. That is the fairest scenario of all.
If you feel forced to something and have problem with it - do not do it - problem solved.
I PvP mostly, and I was also forced to grind STFs and other repeatable TRIBBLE for rep. Now, I would rather be obliterated 100x in PvP by the most horrible cheese there is, instead of doing Cure space with 4 total noobs who are unable to distribute shields and their dmg is comparable to Npc miranda.
Doesn't sound very fair to me.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
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You're right, that doesn't sound fair. It would be fair if you could have saved setups. I think that saved setups would be awesome regardless of whether or not there's a PvP reputation.
I agree the winning team should have a faster gain on PvP Rep, but it shouldn't be so much so the losing side ends up being many weeks to months behind before things even out. There's already enough power creep in this game that time gates new players. New items w/new balanced capabilities would be fine, but nothing like we've been seeing w/the Passive boosts in the other Rep system and Fleet Shield procing resists.
Tbh, I'd rather they focus on things like Open Sector PvP, Territory Control PvP, Resource competition, etc. Then build up player and Cryptic seasonal Tourney's w/unique "Rep" prizes that's the equivalant of a Unique Trophey and Title.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
You may want better gear to do it in 5 minutes instead of taking 10 minutes, but it's not needed to complete it.
So if there were gear added through a PvP rep system...it's not anything you'd need any more than you actually need any STF gear to do ESTFs. It's all optional. Fleet Ships, Lockbox Ships, Z-Store Ships, Rep Gear, etc, etc, etc... it's all optional for PvE. It's like buying that jacket from the Lobi store... you might want it, but you don't need it.
STO doesn't have the typical gear check progression with PvE content. You're not grinding Dungeon #1 so you can grind Dungeon #2 so you can grind Dungeon #3 so you can grind Raid #1 so you can grind Raid #2 so you can grind Raid #3 just in time to have the gear ready for Dungeon #4...etc, etc, etc.
In that latest STOked interview, Stahl talked about it going that way in discussing keeping ships at T5 but adding higher levels of gear. You may head into an area and find that you need more than you've got. The gear check progression...tada! But it just doesn't exist in that manner currently. You hit 50, if you've got a semi decent build and know what needs to be done - you can hit up any ESTF without the need of any STF gear.
As an aside, it's kind of mind boggling - thinking about it with regard to the Omega Rep. You have to hit level 50 to do it...so you can get level 40 (Mk X), level 45 (Mk XI), and eventually what some might consider Level 50 (Mk XII) gear. That should tell you something right there about the gear that you need to run ESTFs...that it really doesn't matter.
So what if they add gear to a PvP Rep? After all, in the end - who's really using all that gear anyway? It's the folks that PvP. They're grinding away PvE for gear to use in PvP. One can easily say they need it more than the PvE person...who may just want it as a vanity thing, completionist thing, because they want to grind faster, or because it soothes their egos.
None of those are valid reasons for there not to be a PvP Rep system much less one that provides any gear.
And when the game does get into that gear check progression mentality...there will be plenty of ways to get any gear needed. In fact, it will likely end up being the same situation we have now - where folks are massively overgeared for PvE and the gear is really only needed for PvP...
If you want the truth... instead of jumping to conclusions.
The high lords of PvP DON'T What PvP rep. Ok perhaps some of them do... but not all PvPers see the value in it.
I would rather they never even consider doing PvP rep.
Here's the kicker... I think such systems will further Deter folks like you that dabble in PvP from doing it for the right reasons. People that do that often end up becoming good pvp players... and many times Complete PvP converts.
I don't want to see a ton of AFK players in PvP... I don't want to see people running around with no shields on to get it over with... or just plain not trying.
I also don't want a game where every PvP player has there rep maxed... and new players stand ZERO chance of doing anything in pvp untill they get there rep done. Other game developers have done stuff like that and it has killed completely there PvP. Frankly if you need to compete in 200 matches, with people that are basicly kicking your backside around based soley on gear... you won't bother.
If PvP rep happens I would take it as a sign of Cryptic honestly and truly writing PvP off for good.
You've been sent to the respawn a number of times, by the way.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
One could say the game's already overdue for some sort of PvP Rating System. Not a Ranking System - but a Rating System.
You take the fresh 50 in his RA ship with a hodgepodge of gear.
You take the other 50 in his Fleet ship, both T5, mix of Mk XII and Elite Fleet gear, Universal Consoles, etc, etc, etc.
Those guys really shouldn't be fighting each other. Sure, life sucks and that stuff happens - but it's a game. It's entertainment. It's not life. People play games to get away from that stuff.
With the talk about things sitting at T5 ships but the gear getting better as time goes along... in a few years that fresh 50 (maybe a fresh 60) in his RA ship could be fighting folks in their massively retrofitted Fleet Ships with Mk TRIBBLE gear. They're both sporting T5 ships though... /cough
If gear, rep levels, etc, etc, etc had a point level - then the cumulative value of those points could give a Rating...as far as queues go. In Ker'rat and other such areas, yeah... hopefully the fresh 50's a KDF looking to complete his Die25, eh?
The gear gap is only going to grow and grow as time goes on...and personally, I think such a Rating system is already overdue. With such a system in place, one could easily envision multiple levels of PvP Rep Ranking based on the divides from that PvP Rating.
It's just kind of funny - in thinking about my #1 toon and my #6 toon. The #1 guy is sporting that mix of VR Mk XI/XII gear, has various set bonuses, and is T5 in both New Rom/Omega. The #6 guy is sporting that mix of...Green Mk X through Blue Mk XI gear, no sets, and isn't even T1 in either New Rom/Omega. Both are in T5 ships though, eh? That gear discrepancy is only going to get worse as time goes on...
OH geez H
I got to say I hate the idea of PvP rep.... However
After reading this one I REALLY REALLY hope we get rep.
So you can understand how we all feel about having to go and chase STUPID Romulan Rats... and blow up the 1000th terribly written Borg AI.... At least in the STFS I can laugh at all the PVE players that can't manage to kill borg, or the ones that manage to somehow die in those things. The Romulan stuff... most PvPers want to slit there wrists every time they find themselves chasing digital rats around.
Yep now I want rep... and perhaps I'll start complaining really loudly till we get it. lol
There were AFKers for Dil.
There are AFKers for Marks.
There's little doubt there would be AFKers for Rep.
It's mind boggling that in the post talking AFKers in PvP and something being done - that thing being done was to give the AFKers more reason to AFK and to introduce more AFKers into PvP.
It doesn't bode well for PvP - given the direction Cryptic's already taken...meh.
Which basically leads back to the first thing I quoted from you... and this, in my experience, has led to folks even forming Efficient Losing Teams - trying to lose as quickly as possible. It drove me crazy in other games. I mean, I wanted to pick one of them up to beat the TRIBBLE out of the others with...it just ticked me off that much.
It's one of those things where there is tons of information available for Cryptic not to repeat the same mistakes that other developers have made... unfortunately, in most cases that information was already there for many of the developers out there before they repeated the same mistakes anyway... so again, it doesn't bode well...
Depends on how they do it. But since most folks get it wrong, it's nothing personal against Cryptic - just likely that they'll do it wrong too.
Where was I quoted saying leeeroooy? I don't remember saying that...
I'm happy to get sent to respawn if I lose a point. I'd rather lose a point or two than never have said what's on my mind.
If I find that the escorts and science ships are harder to kill than cruisers, I will go after the cruisers.
The guys standing around meticulously planning the raid are the people in this community. They endlessly debate the merits of abilities, levels of attainable resists, spike v. pressure damage, crit coding and how the server handles it, new player education, DoT magnitude and proc rate interactions with passive healing, premades v. pug-mades v. pugging, and hundreds of other minute nerdy balance issues.
You conducted an experiment to confirm your own bias which included a whopping 6 matches (you don't even know what you don't know at this point). Then you screamed your own personal battlecry consisting of your own name, preconceptions, and wild speculation about a rumored system and proceeded to ignore the advice of those who have been over this ground repeatedly.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Besides, all you guys will be here complaining about them being OP or UP anyways.
PvP rep system? My shield-less Miranda will be ready for action!
Say Omega... or Romulan... or PvP... or Jem'Hadar... or Dr. Who... whichever you want, but one at a time instead of everything all together at once? You'd still need to be buy Respec tokens to re-arrange your selections within completed trees, but a system would have several upsides for Cryptic as well as its players.
1. Limits power creep in PvE and PvP in a sensible, coherent fashion, allowing content to remain viably challenging without putting it out of reach of players just starting out.
2. Allows Cryptic to watch and see which Rep trees are most used as active, allowing easier metric-gathering for tuning (if nobody is using the PvP Rep systems, there's a good chance there's something wrong with it).
3. Reduces barriers for players looking to get into endgame PvE and PvP content.
There's other reasons, but I've gotta run. It'd be win-win for everyone if Cryptic would go this route with the rep system.
Just wait until the forum pvp reputation system comes out. Then you will have some things to complain about.
I think you have the wrong person. None of my three names are Jenkins, nor do any of my names start with a J.
In the spirit of a fair go I have been playing PvP all this afternoon. There are trends which are becoming apparent. (These are based on observation, not assumption.)
* PvP is ruled by escorts. Yes, there are one or two non-escorts who I've seen do well. One or two over 6 hours.
* Science powers annoy. That's as bad as it's been for me. They don't really hamper you that much.
* Cruisers just don't hit hard enough. Any dent they make in an escort's shield is rendered useless by a quick turn of their ship. That's in the 5 second window where their alternating Tac Team isn't up.
* Escorts seem to tank and tank and tank. I've seen two ships where I couldn't make a dent in their shields after close to a minute of repeated fire and debuffing. Both were escorts. In both matches I was in the top 4 damage dealers. (I parsed the matches.)
These fly in the face of reason and fly in the face of Trek. Call me old fashioned, but I like my Trek games to be a little more Trek. Science should be more than an annoyance. You should see science and be wary. Cruisers should be harder to kill. Escorts should NOT be able to tank.
These imbalances and striving for elitism renders fan favourites like the Galaxy or the Intrepid mostly useless. They're all JHAS, Mobius, Patrol Escorts, Vestas, Odysseys and Andorian ships.
Maybe some good could come out of it if, for example, Feds had separate FvF and FvK reps (would encourage more FvK) and Klingons had separate KvK and FvK resp (would encourage more KvK)
Had wondered if that would be the case, mind you - that it would just be FvK/KvF and not FvF/KvK. Wasn't there some mention somewhere about Battlefront/Warfront/whatever Rep? Short of them meaning they were going to add various NPC missions along the Neutral Zone - kind of took that to mean PvP Rep.